Author Topic: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?  (Read 47310 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #200 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:21:10 »
Yes I'm hitting on a girl who is located halfway across the planet from me because that's so realistic.

You don't need to defend yourself, he's the resident troll; ensuring to keep all irrational stances such as sexism alive in our forums.

I am the resident realist. and I find ur trolling weak..  too much reliance on assumed boobage, not enough political substance.

as far as sexism?   Ur the one that's expecting special treatment.. if anything I am at least less sexist than you are..


as far as ME-Trolling... Perhaps there's some element to that effect, but it is out of Love for GH, and keeping its flame alive..   

If you haven't noticed,  there's been a drought in GH content..  it's been ghosting for a while now


Offline cherpalla

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #201 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:26:31 »
Yes I'm hitting on a girl who is located halfway across the planet from me because that's so realistic.

You don't need to defend yourself, he's the resident troll; ensuring to keep all irrational stances such as sexism alive in our forums.

I am the resident realist. and I find ur trolling weak..  too much reliance on assumed boobage, not enough political substance.

Show Image


First things first, I'm the realist.

My lack of political substance might stem from my position as an antiestablishmentarian. I was born with the boobs so it's really unfair to quantify the former and then compare its intangible mass with the latter. I mean, I'm just saying.  :-*
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Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #202 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:28:02 »
Flimsy  Frame

Board flexing...

Flimsy frame and board flexing? You've obviously never tried to flex the case of a Blackwidow. They're anything but flexible or flimsy.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline ynrozturk

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #203 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:31:14 »
Personally, I don't know exactly how many people have had issues with Razer's keyboards, nor do I know exactly how many are satisfied, but based on the collective ratings and reviews I've seen / read from various sources, my impression is that most customers are fairly happy. As to your question, though. If the Blackwidow had a matte finish, no macro keys, used what I considered a legible font, and didn't incorporate that stupid Razer logo below the space bar, then yes, it might be a keyboard I'd want.

TADA!

IBM Model F | IMB Model M | Poker II MX Brown | Poker II MX Clear | Filco TKL MX Brown | Bastardized Razer Blackwidow TE MX Blue | Logitech G602 |  Cyborg R.A.T. 7 | | Logitech MX518 | Icemat  | Artisan Hien

Offline cherpalla

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #204 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:34:44 »
Personally, I don't know exactly how many people have had issues with Razer's keyboards, nor do I know exactly how many are satisfied, but based on the collective ratings and reviews I've seen / read from various sources, my impression is that most customers are fairly happy. As to your question, though. If the Blackwidow had a matte finish, no macro keys, used what I considered a legible font, and didn't incorporate that stupid Razer logo below the space bar, then yes, it might be a keyboard I'd want.

TADA!

Show Image


I wonder if it would be worth buying a new one with their switches and desoldering them for use in another board. I mean, I do want to learn how to do that anyway. If the orange switches are just as good, but feel better for a gamer than reds, I would be willing to try them out. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the switches themselves, that I can recall. HMMMMM
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #205 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:35:35 »
Flimsy  Frame

Board flexing...

Flimsy frame and board flexing? You've obviously never tried to flex the case of a Blackwidow. They're anything but flexible or flimsy.


have you ever typed on one? the center of the board is like a trampoline.

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #206 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:39:43 »
Personally, I don't know exactly how many people have had issues with Razer's keyboards, nor do I know exactly how many are satisfied, but based on the collective ratings and reviews I've seen / read from various sources, my impression is that most customers are fairly happy. As to your question, though. If the Blackwidow had a matte finish, no macro keys, used what I considered a legible font, and didn't incorporate that stupid Razer logo below the space bar, then yes, it might be a keyboard I'd want.

TADA!

Show Image


I wonder if it would be worth buying a new one with their switches and desoldering them for use in another board. I mean, I do want to learn how to do that anyway. If the orange switches are just as good, but feel better for a gamer than reds, I would be willing to try them out. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the switches themselves, that I can recall. HMMMMM

This one has Blues since it's the 2013 version, but I say go for it - you can find them for cheap and you could always harvest the parts for other projects. Or like you said use it as a board to learn how to solder and stuff. Good skill to have.

Also, I don't know why people complain about this particular board, as it has a steel plate and there's no flex to it. I completely sawed the case off and there's still no flex to it.
IBM Model F | IMB Model M | Poker II MX Brown | Poker II MX Clear | Filco TKL MX Brown | Bastardized Razer Blackwidow TE MX Blue | Logitech G602 |  Cyborg R.A.T. 7 | | Logitech MX518 | Icemat  | Artisan Hien

Offline cherpalla

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #207 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:57:42 »
Personally, I don't know exactly how many people have had issues with Razer's keyboards, nor do I know exactly how many are satisfied, but based on the collective ratings and reviews I've seen / read from various sources, my impression is that most customers are fairly happy. As to your question, though. If the Blackwidow had a matte finish, no macro keys, used what I considered a legible font, and didn't incorporate that stupid Razer logo below the space bar, then yes, it might be a keyboard I'd want.

TADA!

Show Image


I wonder if it would be worth buying a new one with their switches and desoldering them for use in another board. I mean, I do want to learn how to do that anyway. If the orange switches are just as good, but feel better for a gamer than reds, I would be willing to try them out. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the switches themselves, that I can recall. HMMMMM

This one has Blues since it's the 2013 version, but I say go for it - you can find them for cheap and you could always harvest the parts for other projects. Or like you said use it as a board to learn how to solder and stuff. Good skill to have.

Also, I don't know why people complain about this particular board, as it has a steel plate and there's no flex to it. I completely sawed the case off and there's still no flex to it.

The complaints I've read about this board are about failures with the LEDs, specific keys, all the keys or all of the electrical parts. I've also read a few about poor solder jobs, but I'm not sure how wide-spread that is. I was reading that there are problems with people saying the tactility of the greens can vary among keys, but again, not sure how wide-spread this is either. And of course quality of the keycaps and the plastic casing.

I haven't seen any complaints about the oranges, but I did just read that they are also tactile. IE, not for me.
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Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #208 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 12:11:36 »
I don't take the time to take the actual quotes I'm replying to because I don't think this conversation is worth taking the time to do so.

Obviously. That's why you expend the effort to write nearly half a page every reply.

You're wrong about the Amazon star rating. The average item being rated a 4.2 in Amazon's electronics department tells us that statistically, reviews are skewed left (at least in this department), and so a 4-star rating should be interpreted to be about a 3 (2.85 rounded up). (3/5 = 4.2/x, x ~ 7, 4/7 = x/5, x ~ 3). That's really the only point I was arguing with you. (And no, I can't find the exact skewness (3(mean-median)/Standard Deviation) because I'd have to request the actual numbers from Stanford who gathered the data in the first place).
One only need read through a healthy number of reviews for a particular product in order to determine for themselves if the rating is, in fact, skewed. In this particular case, the reviews I've read tend to correspond to the star rating.

As I said before, if your point is that the 2014 BW is better quality than their other products

My point was explicit. I've stated it several times and made it clear in my last post. Perhaps you require a screenshot of the relevant text with a giant arrow pointing to it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 12:13:27 by 1391406 »
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #209 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 12:12:27 »
Flimsy  Frame

Board flexing...

Flimsy frame and board flexing? You've obviously never tried to flex the case of a Blackwidow. They're anything but flexible or flimsy.


have you ever typed on one? the center of the board is like a trampoline.

I own one, in fact. And no, the center of the board is nothing like a trampoline. Do you own one? Have you seriously ever tried to flex one?
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 12:15:48 by 1391406 »
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline Polymer

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #210 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 12:15:47 »
Personally, I wouldn't consider 15% a red flag necessarily, but that's me.
I do..on a new product that is rather high...but if you don't, fair enough..

False dilemma. What's relevant to me in a review is well-rounded and substantive input about the product as a whole, including but not limited to problematic issues.
And having read the reviews, you feel most of the positive ones had substantive information about the product as a whole?  Including reliability?  Given the amount of time they would have had to test the product, that would be unlikely...

Personally, I don't know exactly how many people have had issues with Razer's keyboards, nor do I know exactly how many are satisfied, but based on the collective ratings and reviews I've seen / read from various sources, my impression is that most customers are fairly happy. As to your question, though. If the Blackwidow had a matte finish, no macro keys, used what I considered a legible font, and didn't incorporate that stupid Razer logo below the space bar, then yes, it might be a keyboard I'd want.
So how many reviews have you read for long term usage?  How many substantive reviews have you seen that didn't just go over the features on a brand new product?  Probably not a whole lot....I'd say a majority of the true experiences of the keyboard are accurately reflected on GH..where the keyboards are getting used, are getting analyzed and the term is longer term....Now, there are biases against Razer..no doubt...but the issues are the issues.  Some people haven't had any problems with them, but a good number have..but to be fair, I have NOT seen a lot of information on the newest ones..no real complaints.  I'm not sure if there hasn't been enough time or they're just made a lot better..time will tell.  In the meantime, are you risking your money on them?  I'm not.  There would be absolutely no reason to buy them until they've proven they're reliable..especially because you know what else is out there and know where to get it..whereas the average consumer might not.

Offline cherpalla

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #211 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 12:51:33 »
I don't take the time to take the actual quotes I'm replying to because I don't think this conversation is worth taking the time to do so.

Obviously. That's why you expend the effort to write nearly half a page every reply.

You're wrong about the Amazon star rating. The average item being rated a 4.2 in Amazon's electronics department tells us that statistically, reviews are skewed left (at least in this department), and so a 4-star rating should be interpreted to be about a 3 (2.85 rounded up). (3/5 = 4.2/x, x ~ 7, 4/7 = x/5, x ~ 3). That's really the only point I was arguing with you. (And no, I can't find the exact skewness (3(mean-median)/Standard Deviation) because I'd have to request the actual numbers from Stanford who gathered the data in the first place).
One only need read through a healthy number of reviews for a particular product in order to determine for themselves if the rating is, in fact, skewed. In this particular case, the reviews I've read tend to correspond to the star rating.

As I said before, if your point is that the 2014 BW is better quality than their other products

My point was explicit. I've stated it several times and made it clear in my last post. Perhaps you require a screenshot of the relevant text with a giant arrow pointing to it.

Skewness is a term in mathematics (specifically statistics) used to describe asymmetry from the normal distribution in a set of data. A meaningful "average" in the set of all electronics reviews for the last 15 years or so should be in near symmetry with the scale's average of 3. However, the statistical, calculated average of all of these millions of reviews is instead 4.2, an asymmetrical graph skewed left, resulting in a negative skew of about 1.3. When we talk about rating products, these numbers mean nothing if we don't give them a meaning. When the result of gathering data gives us an answer that is different than we expect, we have to adjust those numbers to fit the original meaning. If 4.2 is the average product rating, then that would mean 4.2 is average, and thus we need to shift our scale to assume that a user who rates a product a 1 is also using that as a 0-rating (which you will find referenced quite frequently) and 4 stars to describe an average product.

Using your definition of skewed outside of statistics, if you had read through a healthy number of 4 and 5 star reviews, you would have come to the same conclusion. Most of the five star reviews are fairly meaningless, and the ones with a healthy amount of text find defects in either the design, the materials used or the reliability of the product itself. In the world of Amazon electronics... a 4 star rating is an average product and this is reflected in the reviews themselves, as statistics would predict given the negative skewness.

As to your first comment, I already said I have the tendency to not let things go. Typing is basically a thought-vomit for me, while maneuvering around a giant quote thread is pretty annoying and I'll only do it when I find it worth my time.

You already said you weren't trying to prove to me that they were worth giving another shot with this board (no, I'm not going to sift through the thread for your quote, I trust you will find it yourself), when I said that I was being cheeky, because what you responded to was me discussing why I will not give this particular product a chance.  The in-depth review you referenced was more supportive of my view than yours, "I would rate the keyboard as a good buy if you get it cheap, or you want the lighting, or require a USB passthrough."

I really don't see your point in continuing to discuss with me at all, as all I can tell is that your standard for quality is just pretty damn low. You also brought up a bunch of references for how you formed your conclusion that this product was deserving of being called excellent that offer out of the box reviews. This is why I keep going back to the numerous reviews in all star ratings talking about out of the box failure and failure within a few months, where as most ratings in general (including on NewEgg) are first impressions or done within a week of ownership.

If you don't care about my opinion of Razer products (which is really related to their price point, if they were reasonably priced, I would happily call them average), then why do you continue to argue with me about it? I already told you I won't drop it, so why don't you? Same irritating knack to need to get the last word in?
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Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #212 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 12:53:29 »
And having read the reviews, you feel most of the positive ones had substantive information about the product as a whole?  Including reliability?  Given the amount of time they would have had to test the product, that would be unlikely...

If you're referring to the new Blackwidow, the jury is still out on the issue of reliability, though if the teardown I posted of the 2013 BW BF3 Edition is any indication, it may not be a concern. If you're talking about older incarnations, that's another story.

I'd say a majority of the true experiences of the keyboard are accurately reflected on GH..where the keyboards are getting used, are getting analyzed and the term is longer term....Now, there are biases against Razer..no doubt...but the issues are the issues.

In my opinion, it's the people who are experiencing problems that are likely to be the most vocal. It can leave the lopsided impression that there's a potentially bigger problem with a product than there actually is. Is that the case with Razer? I don't claim to know, but it's something to think about.

In the meantime, are you risking your money on them?  I'm not.  There would be absolutely no reason to buy them until they've proven they're reliable..especially because you know what else is out there and know where to get it..whereas the average consumer might not.

I started with a Blackwidow, but reliability aside, my keyboard preferences have changed quite a bit since then. Even if Razer changed the BW to suit my preferences (mentioned earlier) I'd still have relatively little to no interest in one.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:13:05 by 1391406 »
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #213 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:11:57 »
Skewness is a term in mathematics (specifically statistics) used to describe asymmetry from the normal distribution in a set of data. A meaningful "average" in the set of all electronics reviews for the last 15 years or so should be in near symmetry with the scale's average of 3. However, the statistical, calculated average of all of these millions of reviews is instead 4.2, an asymmetrical graph skewed left, resulting in a negative skew of about 1.3. When we talk about rating products, these numbers mean nothing if we don't give them a meaning. When the result of gathering data gives us an answer that is different than we expect, we have to adjust those numbers to fit the original meaning. If 4.2 is the average product rating, then that would mean 4.2 is average, and thus we need to shift our scale to assume that a user who rates a product a 1 is also using that as a 0-rating (which you will find referenced quite frequently) and 4 stars to describe an average product.

Using your definition of skewed outside of statistics, if you had read through a healthy number of 4 and 5 star reviews, you would have come to the same conclusion.

I understand. This article does a fine job of explicating the issue. If it weren't for the fact that a great number of reviews I've read for various products I own are often collectively consistent with my own opinion, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't find much value or make any real distinction between actually reading the reviews vs. relying solely on the star rating, suit yourself.

As to your first comment, I already said I have the tendency to not let things go. Typing is basically a thought-vomit for me, while maneuvering around a giant quote thread is pretty annoying and I'll only do it when I find it worth my time.

In order to respond to what's being said in a thread, you have to wade through the text anyway. Adding the quote syntax along the way is actually a more proficient way to respond because you tackle the points as they're brought up upon first reading rather than having to potentially re-read them in order to keep track of what you're responding to after the fact. It's less proficient in general and more cumbersome for anyone who's trying to make sense of what you're talking about, but whatever lights your crack pipe.

The in-depth review you referenced was more supportive of my view than yours, "I would rate the keyboard as a good buy if you get it cheap, or you want the lighting, or require a USB passthrough."

The issues that guy had with the keyboard were entirely unrelated to reliability(the crux of your view). His primary reasons for not recommending it wholeheartedly are as follows:

* The caps are rubbish, and should be the first thing that are switched out.
* The keyboard is too large, added to by the macro keys, the integrated rest, and the corners cut off.
* The biggest waste that could reduce cost and improve the product would be the removal of the LED and the logo.

I really don't see your point in continuing to discuss with me at all, as all I can tell is that your standard for quality is just pretty damn low.

I don't know about you, but I'm responding because you keep replying with points I don't agree with. Frankly, if you don't want to discuss it anymore or think it's all stupid and irrelevant, no one's twisting your arm to keep replying, especially with 5 paragraph long posts.

You also brought up a bunch of references for how you formed your conclusion that this product was deserving of being called excellent that offer out of the box reviews.

Emphasis on what I didn't say.

If you don't care about my opinion of Razer products (which is really related to their price point, if they were reasonably priced, I would happily call them average), then why do you continue to argue with me about it?

Read what I previously wrote. I said I could frankly care less if you buy any or all of their products. However, why you're befuddled that a person would respond to claims you make that they don't agree with, who knows.

I already told you I won't drop it, so why don't you? Same irritating knack to need to get the last word in?

You're projecting. If I was only interested in getting the last word in, I wouldn't care whether we agree to disagree, but I'm the one that suggested it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:48:38 by 1391406 »
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #214 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:30:41 »
1391406  and cherp


I can not believe you guys actually read the garbage you write each other...

..no i didn't read ur wallotxt


You two deserve each other......

Offline saturnotaku

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #215 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:35:17 »
I can not believe you guys actually read the garbage you write each other...

:-X

Quote
..no i didn't read ur wallotxt

 :-\

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #216 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:38:47 »
Personally, I don't know exactly how many people have had issues with Razer's keyboards, nor do I know exactly how many are satisfied, but based on the collective ratings and reviews I've seen / read from various sources, my impression is that most customers are fairly happy. As to your question, though. If the Blackwidow had a matte finish, no macro keys, used what I considered a legible font, and didn't incorporate that stupid Razer logo below the space bar, then yes, it might be a keyboard I'd want.

TADA!

Show Image


I wonder if it would be worth buying a new one with their switches and desoldering them for use in another board. I mean, I do want to learn how to do that anyway. If the orange switches are just as good, but feel better for a gamer than reds, I would be willing to try them out. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the switches themselves, that I can recall. HMMMMM

This one has Blues since it's the 2013 version, but I say go for it - you can find them for cheap and you could always harvest the parts for other projects. Or like you said use it as a board to learn how to solder and stuff. Good skill to have.

Also, I don't know why people complain about this particular board, as it has a steel plate and there's no flex to it. I completely sawed the case off and there's still no flex to it.

The complaints I've read about this board are about failures with the LEDs, specific keys, all the keys or all of the electrical parts. I've also read a few about poor solder jobs, but I'm not sure how wide-spread that is. I was reading that there are problems with people saying the tactility of the greens can vary among keys, but again, not sure how wide-spread this is either. And of course quality of the keycaps and the plastic casing.

I haven't seen any complaints about the oranges, but I did just read that they are also tactile. IE, not for me.

Hmm I guess I guess I got one of the units without any of those problems. One of the first things I did after getting that board was taking it apart to look at the soldering job on it, and it appears to be perfectly fine. Neat and tidy, not messy at all. Yes the key caps it comes with are crap, but honestly, the same can be said about a lot of other boards on the market, such as Corsair, Cooler Master and even Filco. And considering what some Filco's sell for, that's pretty ridiculous. I guess I just got a decent unit.
IBM Model F | IMB Model M | Poker II MX Brown | Poker II MX Clear | Filco TKL MX Brown | Bastardized Razer Blackwidow TE MX Blue | Logitech G602 |  Cyborg R.A.T. 7 | | Logitech MX518 | Icemat  | Artisan Hien


Offline cherpalla

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #218 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 19:10:09 »
Skewness is a term in mathematics (specifically statistics) used to describe asymmetry from the normal distribution in a set of data. A meaningful "average" in the set of all electronics reviews for the last 15 years or so should be in near symmetry with the scale's average of 3. However, the statistical, calculated average of all of these millions of reviews is instead 4.2, an asymmetrical graph skewed left, resulting in a negative skew of about 1.3. When we talk about rating products, these numbers mean nothing if we don't give them a meaning. When the result of gathering data gives us an answer that is different than we expect, we have to adjust those numbers to fit the original meaning. If 4.2 is the average product rating, then that would mean 4.2 is average, and thus we need to shift our scale to assume that a user who rates a product a 1 is also using that as a 0-rating (which you will find referenced quite frequently) and 4 stars to describe an average product.

Using your definition of skewed outside of statistics, if you had read through a healthy number of 4 and 5 star reviews, you would have come to the same conclusion.

I understand. This article does a fine job of explicating the issue. If it weren't for the fact that a great number of reviews I've read for various products I own are often collectively consistent with my own opinion, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't find much value or make any real distinction between actually reading the reviews vs. relying solely on the star rating, suit yourself.

As to your first comment, I already said I have the tendency to not let things go. Typing is basically a thought-vomit for me, while maneuvering around a giant quote thread is pretty annoying and I'll only do it when I find it worth my time.

In order to respond to what's being said in a thread, you have to wade through the text anyway. Adding the quote syntax along the way is actually a more proficient way to respond because you tackle the points as they're brought up upon first reading rather than having to potentially re-read them in order to keep track of what you're responding to after the fact. It's less proficient in general and more cumbersome for anyone who's trying to make sense of what you're talking about, but whatever lights your crack pipe.

The in-depth review you referenced was more supportive of my view than yours, "I would rate the keyboard as a good buy if you get it cheap, or you want the lighting, or require a USB passthrough."

The issues that guy had with the keyboard were entirely unrelated to reliability(the crux of your view). His primary reasons for not recommending it wholeheartedly are as follows:

* The caps are rubbish, and should be the first thing that are switched out.
* The keyboard is too large, added to by the macro keys, the integrated rest, and the corners cut off.
* The biggest waste that could reduce cost and improve the product would be the removal of the LED and the logo.

I really don't see your point in continuing to discuss with me at all, as all I can tell is that your standard for quality is just pretty damn low.

I don't know about you, but I'm responding because you keep replying with points I don't agree with. Frankly, if you don't want to discuss it anymore or think it's all stupid and irrelevant, no one's twisting your arm to keep replying, especially with 5 paragraph long posts.

You also brought up a bunch of references for how you formed your conclusion that this product was deserving of being called excellent that offer out of the box reviews.

Emphasis on what I didn't say.

If you don't care about my opinion of Razer products (which is really related to their price point, if they were reasonably priced, I would happily call them average), then why do you continue to argue with me about it?

Read what I previously wrote. I said I could frankly care less if you buy any or all of their products. However, why you're befuddled that a person would respond to claims you make that they don't agree with, who knows.

I already told you I won't drop it, so why don't you? Same irritating knack to need to get the last word in?

You're projecting. If I was only interested in getting the last word in, I wouldn't care whether we agree to disagree, but I'm the one that suggested it.

Projecting would mean that I am seeing my own negative qualities in you (as a general rule, the projector is blind to these qualities, while I am rather vocal about them). I asked you a question, inferring that I am not making an assumption at all. I am genuinely curious as to why you continue to respond. My suggestion was meant to be annoying.

My claim was that the 2014 BW has not received what I would consider to be an overwhelmingly positive response from consumers. All of the data you brought up supports that claim. Let me summarize my comments:
 
My personal issue in the past has been that of reliability and quality. That is, the peripherals break down quickly or arrive defected. This is supported by more than 15% of the community as I've observed by looking up issues with the same products I've owned. Upon researching the 2014 BW, I did not find the empirical evidence speaking to the reliability of this particular product, suggesting that it may not be as bad as other products, but this would be an assumption as nearly all of the reviews are impressions given within a couple of weeks of ownership. I found the overall reviews to reflect a "meh" response from the community, nothing overwhelming enough for me to risk spending money to see if this product was more reliable than the other products I had tried.

However, further digging revealed many of the reviews did speak of defects and early product failure, though higher ratings were given by those who had a positive experience with customer service. Because of being very familiar with Amazon, I observed that 4 star ratings were too common to be considered above average and more likely a 4 star rating would be an average product. With a little research I discovered that was an accurate assumption, and in fact to call a 4 average is pretty generous, given that the most concentrated star rating value amongst electronics on Amazon is 5 stars. Further research about this product revealed more issues, specifically with the Chinese Cherry MX dupes. Many consumers reported variances amongst the tactility of the keys, the switches themselves breaking clean off and variances in the cross sizing causing some keycaps to be loose and others tight.

My original statement was that the response has not been overwhelmingly positive. All of the data I've acquired during this exchange (including that which you have linked) has confirmed that.

Also, the link you provided is a study I've already read based on the data acquired from Stanford I discussed earlier. While Max Woolf has determined that 2 and 3 star ratings are essentially useless on Amazon, I disagree -- I always read 2 & 3 star reviews, while I sift through the rest to find meaningful responses. We interpret that the scale is being used in the same way, however, for the most part, that is that 1 is being used to say they hated the product (or customer service or both), often referencing that they would rate it a 0 if they could. 4's if they thought it was okay, or average, and a 5 if they liked it or loved it, with no distinguishable difference between those two feelings. As a result, the average is a 4.2 star rating, indicating that a user is likely to rate a product 4 if they were satisfied, but not overly satisfied and a 5 if they are satisfied and also overly satisfied.

As Woolf points out, Amazon's scale isn't being used properly. For the most part, it's used as a 3-point scale: [1, 4, 5], so moving to a Like/Dislike system might be beneficial. Then when a product has less than an 80% approval rate, there won't be long threads arguing about whether or not the response from consumers was an average one.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 19:21:21 by cherpalla »
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Offline cherpalla

  • Posts: 370
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #219 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 19:18:15 »
Personally, I don't know exactly how many people have had issues with Razer's keyboards, nor do I know exactly how many are satisfied, but based on the collective ratings and reviews I've seen / read from various sources, my impression is that most customers are fairly happy. As to your question, though. If the Blackwidow had a matte finish, no macro keys, used what I considered a legible font, and didn't incorporate that stupid Razer logo below the space bar, then yes, it might be a keyboard I'd want.

TADA!

Show Image


I wonder if it would be worth buying a new one with their switches and desoldering them for use in another board. I mean, I do want to learn how to do that anyway. If the orange switches are just as good, but feel better for a gamer than reds, I would be willing to try them out. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the switches themselves, that I can recall. HMMMMM

This one has Blues since it's the 2013 version, but I say go for it - you can find them for cheap and you could always harvest the parts for other projects. Or like you said use it as a board to learn how to solder and stuff. Good skill to have.

Also, I don't know why people complain about this particular board, as it has a steel plate and there's no flex to it. I completely sawed the case off and there's still no flex to it.

The complaints I've read about this board are about failures with the LEDs, specific keys, all the keys or all of the electrical parts. I've also read a few about poor solder jobs, but I'm not sure how wide-spread that is. I was reading that there are problems with people saying the tactility of the greens can vary among keys, but again, not sure how wide-spread this is either. And of course quality of the keycaps and the plastic casing.

I haven't seen any complaints about the oranges, but I did just read that they are also tactile. IE, not for me.

Hmm I guess I guess I got one of the units without any of those problems. One of the first things I did after getting that board was taking it apart to look at the soldering job on it, and it appears to be perfectly fine. Neat and tidy, not messy at all. Yes the key caps it comes with are crap, but honestly, the same can be said about a lot of other boards on the market, such as Corsair, Cooler Master and even Filco. And considering what some Filco's sell for, that's pretty ridiculous. I guess I just got a decent unit.

Well, I'm referring specifically to the 2014 boards, I don't really recall what the issues with the boards in the past were. I haven't read very many reviews of the 2013 model. I will say, though, that when normal consumers have a problem with the keycaps, that's a pretty crappy keycap. My Corsair K90's keycaps were paper thin and they are white plastic that has been painted black, it was my first mechanical keyboard and I remember it being the only thing I didn't like about it. They felt flimsy. I've gotten pretty picky now, so though I thought that the Choc Noopoo keycaps were great when I got that board (I mean after Corsair's origami keycaps...), I now don't like them at all.

That keyboard, the Corsair K90, got slammed into a wall (I was really mad at Diablo) and left a mark in the wall. That thing is solid. (No, I don't abuse all keyboards, just that one). I've read that these are just as bad as Razer's though, when it comes to key failure and electronic death within a couple of years. I only used mine for a few months, I just know that the construction can be slammed into a wall. I've kept it only because the housing is so pretty. I'd love to saw it down and use it to make a better (smaller) board someday.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 19:26:55 by cherpalla »
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Offline ynrozturk

  • Posts: 719
  • Location: Istanbul
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #220 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 19:38:00 »
Personally, I don't know exactly how many people have had issues with Razer's keyboards, nor do I know exactly how many are satisfied, but based on the collective ratings and reviews I've seen / read from various sources, my impression is that most customers are fairly happy. As to your question, though. If the Blackwidow had a matte finish, no macro keys, used what I considered a legible font, and didn't incorporate that stupid Razer logo below the space bar, then yes, it might be a keyboard I'd want.

TADA!

Show Image


I wonder if it would be worth buying a new one with their switches and desoldering them for use in another board. I mean, I do want to learn how to do that anyway. If the orange switches are just as good, but feel better for a gamer than reds, I would be willing to try them out. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the switches themselves, that I can recall. HMMMMM

This one has Blues since it's the 2013 version, but I say go for it - you can find them for cheap and you could always harvest the parts for other projects. Or like you said use it as a board to learn how to solder and stuff. Good skill to have.

Also, I don't know why people complain about this particular board, as it has a steel plate and there's no flex to it. I completely sawed the case off and there's still no flex to it.

The complaints I've read about this board are about failures with the LEDs, specific keys, all the keys or all of the electrical parts. I've also read a few about poor solder jobs, but I'm not sure how wide-spread that is. I was reading that there are problems with people saying the tactility of the greens can vary among keys, but again, not sure how wide-spread this is either. And of course quality of the keycaps and the plastic casing.

I haven't seen any complaints about the oranges, but I did just read that they are also tactile. IE, not for me.

Hmm I guess I guess I got one of the units without any of those problems. One of the first things I did after getting that board was taking it apart to look at the soldering job on it, and it appears to be perfectly fine. Neat and tidy, not messy at all. Yes the key caps it comes with are crap, but honestly, the same can be said about a lot of other boards on the market, such as Corsair, Cooler Master and even Filco. And considering what some Filco's sell for, that's pretty ridiculous. I guess I just got a decent unit.

Well, I'm referring specifically to the 2014 boards, I don't really recall what the issues with the boards in the past were. I haven't read very many reviews of the 2013 model. I will say, though, that when normal consumers have a problem with the keycaps, that's a pretty crappy keycap. My Corsair K90's keycaps were paper thin and they are white plastic that has been painted black, it was my first mechanical keyboard and I remember it being the only thing I didn't like about it. They felt flimsy. I've gotten pretty picky now, so though I thought that the Choc Noopoo keycaps were great when I got that board (I mean after Corsair's origami keycaps...), I now don't like them at all.

That keyboard, the Corsair K90, got slammed into a wall (I was really mad at Diablo) and left a mark in the wall. That thing is solid. (No, I don't abuse all keyboards, just that one). I've read that these are just as bad as Razer's though, when it comes to key failure and electronic death within a couple of years. I only used mine for a few months, I just know that the construction can be slammed into a wall. I've kept it only because the housing is so pretty. I'd love to saw it down and use it to make a better (smaller) board someday.

Oh, I don't now anything about the newer Razer boards either to be honest, I've stopped following that company as a whole, even though I still use my Lachesis 5600 Refresh. It still works after a year - knock on wood I guess.

The newer ones come with those Razer or Kalih switches or something, and that just doesn't interest me. I love my Browns and Clears too much to even try them out.

I still really like the K90's design, and was thinking of getting one back when they were first released. I still think it's beautiful and can be customized into an even prettier looking board with different caps and stuff like that. It's all aluminum so I bet it's built like a tank - not surprised it took a wall hit with no problems. You must have been really pissed off, though  :))
IBM Model F | IMB Model M | Poker II MX Brown | Poker II MX Clear | Filco TKL MX Brown | Bastardized Razer Blackwidow TE MX Blue | Logitech G602 |  Cyborg R.A.T. 7 | | Logitech MX518 | Icemat  | Artisan Hien

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #221 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 20:44:27 »
If you're referring to the new Blackwidow, the jury is still out on the issue of reliability, though if the teardown I posted of the 2013 BW BF3 Edition is any indication, it may not be a concern. If you're talking about older incarnations, that's another story.
Right.  A good number of people have had issues early on (more than I would expect) but overall we don't know how the reliability will be.  No point in talking about satisfaction about it either because we don't know.  But there is no reason to believe, at this point, it is great.  It might be but erring on the side of quality with Razer is probably NOT my first choice.  It might end up being the most reliable board ever...but nothing so far would indicate we should believe that will be the case.

In my opinion, it's the people who are experiencing problems that are likely to be the most vocal. It can leave the lopsided impression that there's a potentially bigger problem with a product than there actually is. Is that the case with Razer? I don't claim to know, but it's something to think about.
It might..but I think if you see a lot of reviews about reliability problems...stuff all over the place, that isn't an inaccurate point of view.  What you see is just everyone's own assessment of what the product and product reliability is like.  It is also why I appreciate the opinions of the people on here and DA more than I do just any reviews out there.  I don't think the number of Razers on here outnumbers the number of any other keyboards so the number of potential faults is higher purely because of volume..but I think a lot of people here have an actual point of reference to compare them to and lets face it, they're also a lot more likely to break down their keyboard and find out what is wrong.

There are a lot of Razer haters on here..but I don't think that is because they're popular...I think people have had problems with their product in the past and they're just tired of it...I do like their mousepads though..


Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #222 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:30:36 »
My claim was that the 2014 BW has not received what I would consider to be an overwhelmingly positive response from consumers. All of the data you brought up supports that claim. Let me summarize my comments:
 
My personal issue in the past has been that of reliability and quality. That is, the peripherals break down quickly or arrive defected. This is supported by more than 15% of the community as I've observed by looking up issues with the same products I've owned. Upon researching the 2014 BW, I did not find the empirical evidence speaking to the reliability of this particular product, suggesting that it may not be as bad as other products, but this would be an assumption as nearly all of the reviews are impressions given within a couple of weeks of ownership. I found the overall reviews to reflect a "meh" response from the community, nothing overwhelming enough for me to risk spending money to see if this product was more reliable than the other products I had tried.

However, further digging revealed many of the reviews did speak of defects and early product failure, though higher ratings were given by those who had a positive experience with customer service. Because of being very familiar with Amazon, I observed that 4 star ratings were too common to be considered above average and more likely a 4 star rating would be an average product. With a little research I discovered that was an accurate assumption, and in fact to call a 4 average is pretty generous, given that the most concentrated star rating value amongst electronics on Amazon is 5 stars. Further research about this product revealed more issues, specifically with the Chinese Cherry MX dupes. Many consumers reported variances amongst the tactility of the keys, the switches themselves breaking clean off and variances in the cross sizing causing some keycaps to be loose and others tight.

Also, the link you provided is a study I've already read based on the data acquired from Stanford I discussed earlier. While Max Woolf has determined that 2 and 3 star ratings are essentially useless on Amazon, I disagree -- I always read 2 & 3 star reviews, while I sift through the rest to find meaningful responses. We interpret that the scale is being used in the same way, however, for the most part, that is that 1 is being used to say they hated the product (or customer service or both), often referencing that they would rate it a 0 if they could. 4's if they thought it was okay, or average, and a 5 if they liked it or loved it, with no distinguishable difference between those two feelings. As a result, the average is a 4.2 star rating, indicating that a user is likely to rate a product 4 if they were satisfied, but not overly satisfied and a 5 if they are satisfied and also overly satisfied.

As Woolf points out, Amazon's scale isn't being used properly. For the most part, it's used as a 3-point scale: [1, 4, 5], so moving to a Like/Dislike system might be beneficial. Then when a product has less than an 80% approval rate, there won't be long threads arguing about whether or not the response from consumers was an average one.

The question is whether the Stanford research applies to every product in the electronics category. For instance, if the ratings for all products in that category were defacto skewed, one would expect ratings for the same item on other sites to be a point lower. More importantly, one would expect to observe lower ratings by pro reviewers. However, ratings for the current Blackwidow are consistent with other sites and numerous pro reviews. In fact, it's worth mentioning that Amazon's rating is actually lower in some cases.

However, consistent ratings among sites aren't limited to the Blackwidow. For instance, look up the Toshiba 50L4300U 50-Inch LED TV on Amazon and compare ratings / reviews.

I understand you've had a bleak history of reliability issues with Razer products. You're jaded. I get it. You think they're junk. Me, I've never been interested in Razer's other products, so I've never bothered to read much about them. However, in light of the reviews and feedback I've read regarding the Blackwidow over the last few years, I'm not convinced the people who are complaining are anywhere close to a majority, which is why I think we're still having this discussion. Like I said, if you want to believe their products are garbage, knock yourself out. I respect your opinion. I don't necessarily agree, but so what? Who says we have to agree?
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:43:14 by 1391406 »
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Offline cherpalla

  • Posts: 370
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #223 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:47:49 »
My claim was that the 2014 BW has not received what I would consider to be an overwhelmingly positive response from consumers. All of the data you brought up supports that claim. Let me summarize my comments:
 
My personal issue in the past has been that of reliability and quality. That is, the peripherals break down quickly or arrive defected. This is supported by more than 15% of the community as I've observed by looking up issues with the same products I've owned. Upon researching the 2014 BW, I did not find the empirical evidence speaking to the reliability of this particular product, suggesting that it may not be as bad as other products, but this would be an assumption as nearly all of the reviews are impressions given within a couple of weeks of ownership. I found the overall reviews to reflect a "meh" response from the community, nothing overwhelming enough for me to risk spending money to see if this product was more reliable than the other products I had tried.

However, further digging revealed many of the reviews did speak of defects and early product failure, though higher ratings were given by those who had a positive experience with customer service. Because of being very familiar with Amazon, I observed that 4 star ratings were too common to be considered above average and more likely a 4 star rating would be an average product. With a little research I discovered that was an accurate assumption, and in fact to call a 4 average is pretty generous, given that the most concentrated star rating value amongst electronics on Amazon is 5 stars. Further research about this product revealed more issues, specifically with the Chinese Cherry MX dupes. Many consumers reported variances amongst the tactility of the keys, the switches themselves breaking clean off and variances in the cross sizing causing some keycaps to be loose and others tight.

Also, the link you provided is a study I've already read based on the data acquired from Stanford I discussed earlier. While Max Woolf has determined that 2 and 3 star ratings are essentially useless on Amazon, I disagree -- I always read 2 & 3 star reviews, while I sift through the rest to find meaningful responses. We interpret that the scale is being used in the same way, however, for the most part, that is that 1 is being used to say they hated the product (or customer service or both), often referencing that they would rate it a 0 if they could. 4's if they thought it was okay, or average, and a 5 if they liked it or loved it, with no distinguishable difference between those two feelings. As a result, the average is a 4.2 star rating, indicating that a user is likely to rate a product 4 if they were satisfied, but not overly satisfied and a 5 if they are satisfied and also overly satisfied.

As Woolf points out, Amazon's scale isn't being used properly. For the most part, it's used as a 3-point scale: [1, 4, 5], so moving to a Like/Dislike system might be beneficial. Then when a product has less than an 80% approval rate, there won't be long threads arguing about whether or not the response from consumers was an average one.

The question is whether the Stanford research applies to every product in the electronics category. For instance, if the ratings for all products in that category were defacto skewed, one would expect ratings for the same item on other sites to be a point lower. More importantly, one would expect to observe lower ratings by pro reviewers. However, ratings for the current Blackwidow are consistent with other sites and numerous pro reviews. In fact, it's worth mentioning that Amazon's score is actially sometimes lower.

However, consistent ratings among sites aren't limited to the Blackwidow. For instance, look up the Toshiba 50L4300U 50-Inch LED TV on Amazon and compare ratings / reviews.

I understand you've had a bleak history of reliability issues with Razer products. You're jaded. I get it. You think they're junk. Me, I've never been interested in Razer's other products, so I've never bothered to read much about them. However, in light of the reviews and feedback I've read regarding the Blackwidow over the last few years, I'm not convinced the people who are complaining are anywhere close to a majority, which is why I think we're still having this discussion. Like I said, if you want to believe their products are garbage, knock yourself out. I respect your opinion. I don't necessarily agree, but so what? Who says we have to agree?

I never said I believe that the majority of consumers have issues with their products, nor do I believe that to be the case. I just happen to have had bad luck with them, so if there are problems with this keyboard, I'd have them, too. I have had issues with other products as well, including some of my current peripherals, which have far less cases of issues, but not repeatedly. That being said, their problems seem to be in greater quantities than other brands, and more in line with products that are 25%-50% less than what they charge. Based on consumer feedback, I think they are overpriced, even if this product is a vast improvement over the products which have more widespread problems. I was actually interested in the switches before doing more research about them, so I'm kinda stuck back in my cherry red/black zone. I'm actually surprised that they didn't have the undisclosed Chinese company design a linear switch as well, given that they are marketing to gamers. A large portion of their market plays WoW, which is a spam-your-buttons game. I can't imagine tactile switches in an arena match as a melee class.
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Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #224 on: Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:57:02 »
I think if you see a lot of reviews about reliability problems...stuff all over the place, that isn't an inaccurate point of view.

Someone who's having issues with their board may specifically search for others who're experiencing the same or similar issues. By limiting their search to users who are having problems, the person may develop the skewed perception that more people are experiencing problems than actually are.
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Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #225 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 06:37:14 »
Someone who's having issues with their board may specifically search for others who're experiencing the same or similar issues. By limiting their search to users who are having problems, the person may develop the skewed perception that more people are experiencing problems than actually are.

You might...but if you read through them carefully..if you look at where the comments are coming from, you will be able to develop a good impression of what is going on.

Also, you're discounting the actual problems by thinking that way.  Certain things are consistently a problem and you can see that right away...Enough common issues and you see a pattern....Granted, volume increases the number of actual problems but if you pay attention, you can get a good idea of what is a "meh" problem and what is a consistent issue with that provider. 

You're saying the aggregate star rating is a "better" way of evaluating a product like this?  Interesting..

Offline absyrd

  • CPT HYPE PADAWAN
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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #226 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 07:12:16 »
And having read the reviews, you feel most of the positive ones had substantive information about the product as a whole?  Including reliability?  Given the amount of time they would have had to test the product, that would be unlikely...

If you're referring to the new Blackwidow, the jury is still out on the issue of reliability, though if the teardown I posted of the 2013 BW BF3 Edition is any indication, it may not be a concern. If you're talking about older incarnations, that's another story.

I'd say a majority of the true experiences of the keyboard are accurately reflected on GH..where the keyboards are getting used, are getting analyzed and the term is longer term....Now, there are biases against Razer..no doubt...but the issues are the issues.

In my opinion, it's the people who are experiencing problems that are likely to be the most vocal. It can leave the lopsided impression that there's a potentially bigger problem with a product than there actually is. Is that the case with Razer? I don't claim to know, but it's something to think about.

In the meantime, are you risking your money on them?  I'm not.  There would be absolutely no reason to buy them until they've proven they're reliable..especially because you know what else is out there and know where to get it..whereas the average consumer might not.

I started with a Blackwidow, but reliability aside, my keyboard preferences have changed quite a bit since then. Even if Razer changed the BW to suit my preferences (mentioned earlier) I'd still have relatively little to no interest in one.


Arguing with yourself?   :confused:
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline Rewind

  • Street Fighter
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Offline 1391406

  • Posts: 1191
  • Posts: 24838
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #228 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 08:26:01 »
Someone who's having issues with their board may specifically search for others who're experiencing the same or similar issues. By limiting their search to users who are having problems, the person may develop the skewed perception that more people are experiencing problems than actually are.

You might...but if you read through them carefully..if you look at where the comments are coming from, you will be able to develop a good impression of what is going on.

Let's say I pay close attention to what's being said and observe the origin of those comments. As long as my attention is focused primarily on users who are having issues to the exclusion of those who aren't, I'm likely to develop a lopsided impression. For example, let's say I asked you to look around your room for the next half a minute and notice everything that's brown. Then, I asked you to close your eyes and describe everything in your room that's green. Which color did you see more of?

Also, you're discounting the actual problems by thinking that way.  Certain things are consistently a problem and you can see that right away...Enough common issues and you see a pattern....Granted, volume increases the number of actual problems but if you pay attention, you can get a good idea of what is a "meh" problem and what is a consistent issue with that provider.

I'm not saying there are certain issues that aren't specific to, for instance, the Blackwidow, but it's easy to blow something out of proportion if that's primarily what you're focused on.

You're saying the aggregate star rating is a "better" way of evaluating a product like this?

Star ratings don't provide context. They don't tell me what a rating is based on. Ideally, if I were going to evaluate the reliability of a product, I'd consider multiple sources.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline dantan

  • Posts: 288
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #229 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 08:47:57 »
I always thought that the Blackwidow tournament edition (TKL, blues) was one of the most attractively priced and best bang for buck mechanical keyboard options that were available in my country.

I also think that you do not have to apologize for what you like. Everyone has their own preferences. Once you have a keyboard, you can disregard brand, and just focus on how a keyboard feels instead.

Finally, I think that almost all mechanical keyboards are too loud to be of any use to me. Too loud to use at work, too loud to use in the living room. Basically useless. I would probably get more practical use out of that Razer than I would out of any respected brand that uses Cherry MX switches without a silent option.

Wait what.. is the BW more silent than others, all of sudden ? O.o or have I missed something? The stealth version simply yas the equivalent of mx browns from what I've heard and tried of em..

To OP: I do like the BW as well ^^ but haven't tried it for a longer perios. I almost ended up with a bw tkl, but bought a HHKB instead :))
@Grim, yeah they are really attractive overall and do last for most people for a while I think they have improved recently ( atleast for now) .

@sagii
It is like a softer/lighter brows, i have browns , all type of cherry mx brows and with different silencers/orings and they don't feel 100% exactly the same, you barely feel the click here. Similarities are there of course since they are supposed to be a clone of browns but it is enough to really satisfy me to buy this keyboard rather than others. I was going to take the hit on the HHKB but I decided not too. Just did not want to deal with the learning curve price if I wasn't 100% sure any other keyboard(and I have tried TONS) would do.
Actually told myself, if the next keyboard I bought sucked , I would go for a HHKB... but damn was I mistaken xD.

You are talking about their orange switches?

I tried them out and was surprised that I like them. but with Razer's reputation I'd rather wait and see. Anyway the casing and keycaps are still as terrible as ever and can't be replaced by buying a standard OEM set.

Offline dantan

  • Posts: 288
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #230 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 08:49:19 »
I always thought that the Blackwidow tournament edition (TKL, blues) was one of the most attractively priced and best bang for buck mechanical keyboard options that were available in my country.

I also think that you do not have to apologize for what you like. Everyone has their own preferences. Once you have a keyboard, you can disregard brand, and just focus on how a keyboard feels instead.

Finally, I think that almost all mechanical keyboards are too loud to be of any use to me. Too loud to use at work, too loud to use in the living room. Basically useless. I would probably get more practical use out of that Razer than I would out of any respected brand that uses Cherry MX switches without a silent option.

Wait what.. is the BW more silent than others, all of sudden ? O.o or have I missed something? The stealth version simply yas the equivalent of mx browns from what I've heard and tried of em..

To OP: I do like the BW as well ^^ but haven't tried it for a longer perios. I almost ended up with a bw tkl, but bought a HHKB instead :))
@Grim, yeah they are really attractive overall and do last for most people for a while I think they have improved recently ( atleast for now) .

@sagii
It is like a softer/lighter brows, i have browns , all type of cherry mx brows and with different silencers/orings and they don't feel 100% exactly the same, you barely feel the click here. Similarities are there of course since they are supposed to be a clone of browns but it is enough to really satisfy me to buy this keyboard rather than others. I was going to take the hit on the HHKB but I decided not too. Just did not want to deal with the learning curve price if I wasn't 100% sure any other keyboard(and I have tried TONS) would do.
Actually told myself, if the next keyboard I bought sucked , I would go for a HHKB... but damn was I mistaken xD.

You are talking about their orange switches?

I tried them out and was surprised that I like them. but with Razer's reputation I'd rather wait and see. Anyway the casing and keycaps are still as terrible as ever and can't be replaced by buying a standard OEM set.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #231 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 11:21:29 »
Let's say I pay close attention to what's being said and observe the origin of those comments. As long as my attention is focused primarily on users who are having issues to the exclusion of those who aren't, I'm likely to develop a lopsided impression. For example, let's say I asked you to look around your room for the next half a minute and notice everything that's brown. Then, I asked you to close your eyes and describe everything in your room that's green. Which color did you see more of?
Only if you're looking for/at one thing.  I'm sure you're not reading reviews like that right?  Neither am I...Who does?  But seeing a string of bad reviews from people are perfectly valid...you just have to be able to take things with a grain of salt.  I'm sure you're not advocating ignoring them...so not sure what you're trying to say other than to take many different points of view in..

I'm not saying there are certain issues that aren't specific to, for instance, the Blackwidow, but it's easy to blow something out of proportion if that's primarily what you're focused on.
How are you making the determination that is what is happening? 

Star ratings don't provide context. They don't tell me what a rating is based on. Ideally, if I were going to evaluate the reliability of a product, I'd consider multiple sources.
I know they don't..but weren't you earlier trying to somehow use them to show people's satisfaction with their purchase?

Offline ComradeSniper

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #232 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 11:49:33 »
Wow, this thread is a ****show.

How this all stemmed from a discussion about some ****ty Razer keyboard I will never understand.

Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #233 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 18:47:22 »
But seeing a string of bad reviews from people are perfectly valid...you just have to be able to take things with a grain of salt.  I'm sure you're not advocating ignoring them...so not sure what you're trying to say other than to take many different points of view in..

Exactly. I'm not suggesting ignoring input from forums. I take it into account, sure. But I also consider it in light of other sources.

weren't you earlier trying to somehow use them (ratings) to show people's satisfaction with their purchase?

Their overall satisfaction, yes, but I also qualified my comment by suggesting corroboration with other sources.
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Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #234 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 18:50:07 »
How this all stemmed from a discussion about some ****ty Razer keyboard I will never understand.

I'm just curious, do you own one?
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Offline ComradeSniper

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #235 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 19:05:37 »
How this all stemmed from a discussion about some ****ty Razer keyboard I will never understand.

I'm just curious, do you own one?

I've owned razer mice, keyboards, and headsets in the past, not a black widow in particular though. I've typed on a couple and they have been very mediocre in feeling and I can only imagine that, with regards to longevity, the build quality is similar to that of the other razer products I've owned, which is to say not very good. None of my razer products made it through the 1 year warranty period without being RMA'd, and I baby my stuff.

All I mean is that I thought we could all agree that there are better keyboards for the price.

Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #236 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 19:29:36 »
All I mean is that I thought we could all agree that there are better keyboards for the price.

Better being subjective, I agree, but that's how I feel about gaming keyboards in general.
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Offline ynrozturk

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #237 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 19:48:28 »
I hate the term "gaming" keyboard almost as much as I hate the term "DJ headsets"

You can game with any standard keyboard. Hell, we weren't playing Quake III Arena with all this fancy stuff 17 years ago.

Omg. 17 years ago. Brb gonna go cry.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #238 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 20:08:06 »
Exactly. I'm not suggesting ignoring input from forums. I take it into account, sure. But I also consider it in light of other sources.
That's fair enough..but you seemed to pin your argument around this amazon rating....was that to try to prove some sort of point?  Because you don't seem to have that opinion yourself or your behavior yourself.

Their overall satisfaction, yes, but I also qualified my comment by suggesting corroboration with other sources.
But you do realize a lot of their satisfaction could/would be short lived right?  IMO, a 15% failure rate is rather significant..even more so with the limited release time...
What other sources could you use for a new release?  Reviews on a site that won't give a bad review to a big company and certainly can't test any reliability issues?  The same sites that pan some keyboards for not having more little features (like macro keys, etc?).

I'm not sure if you're just trying to play devils advocate....You've already said yourself you wouldn't buy a Razer....I do agree people need to look at different points of view but I'd also argue that you'll get a lot of good information from relatively few sources because they have the meat, they have the detail, they know what is going on. 

My personal opinion is, I don't see myself using a Razer (because I don't want it to look like a space console)...but I'm not against buying one as a gift if I thought the reliability would be good (and thought they'd like how it looked). 

Offline cherpalla

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #239 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 20:37:16 »
I hate the term "gaming" keyboard almost as much as I hate the term "DJ headsets"

You can game with any standard keyboard. Hell, we weren't playing Quake III Arena with all this fancy stuff 17 years ago.

Omg. 17 years ago. Brb gonna go cry.

It's a marketing term, for sure.
c h e r

Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #240 on: Tue, 16 September 2014, 22:03:20 »
Exactly. I'm not suggesting ignoring input from forums. I take it into account, sure. But I also consider it in light of other sources.
That's fair enough..but you seemed to pin your argument around this amazon rating....was that to try to prove some sort of point?  Because you don't seem to have that opinion yourself or your behavior yourself.

I never hung my arguments squarely on the peg of Amazon's ratings, though their accuracy and reliability dominated much of the previous discussion.

Their overall satisfaction, yes, but I also qualified my comment by suggesting corroboration with other sources.
But you do realize a lot of their satisfaction could/would be short lived right?  IMO, a 15% failure rate is rather significant..even more so with the limited release time...

What source did you derive the 15% failure rate?

What other sources could you use for a new release?

In reference to reliability? Not many if the product is less than a couple of months old.

Reviews on a site that won't give a bad review to a big company and certainly can't test any reliability issues?

You mean the way a company like Microsoft got hammered by innumerable sources for the Xbox 360's "Red Ring of Death" or the flogging Sony took for the Playstation 4's "Blue Light of Death"?

You've already said yourself you wouldn't buy a Razer.

Yes, because my keyboard preferences have since changed subsequent purchasing a Blackwidow approx. 3 years ago.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #241 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 00:24:44 »
I never hung my arguments squarely on the peg of Amazon's ratings, though their accuracy and reliability dominated much of the previous discussion.
If you don't consider them to be accurate why would you use that to try to prove a point?  Or you do consider it accurate?

What source did you derive the 15% failure rate?
Number of bad reviews to the number of total reviews.  Of course if there were a lot via shipping problems, etc, that number would be lower.  And of course this doesn't take into account ALL of the people that bought it...but looking at the number of people not happy with their purchase because of a problem, on a newly released item, that is high...Even if you lower that be a third, that is still 10%..

In reference to reliability? Not many if the product is less than a couple of months old.
So no point in looking at those reviews to show GOOD reliability..the closest you can get early is the absence of bad ones..

You mean the way a company like Microsoft got hammered by innumerable sources for the Xbox 360's "Red Ring of Death" or the flogging Sony took for the Playstation 4's "Blue Light of Death"?

Talking about a known bug or problem for a device is not a bad review..that is just reporting facts..
How many bad reviews are you seeing of new products from large companies?  I see very few..As long as the thing doesn't have a major software issue, they aren't panning these devices...

Yes, because my keyboard preferences have since changed subsequent purchasing a Blackwidow approx. 3 years ago.

Even with the changes you said would make it ok you wouldn't get it either...Can I ask how you arrived at purchasing OTHER keyboards? 

Offline Sagii

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #242 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 00:33:50 »


I hate the term "gaming" keyboard almost as much as I hate the term "DJ headsets"

You can game with any standard keyboard. Hell, we weren't playing Quake III Arena with all this fancy stuff 17 years ago.

Omg. 17 years ago. Brb gonna go cry.

Haha, made me laugh, mate! C'mon, quake and wolfenstein ET multiplayer was the two best things to ever happen ^.^ well, at least ET.

When I first came here I thought I needed a "gaming" keyboard to game, hence my first ever thread called "Gaming keyboards"... you lot turned me over yo :)) also didnt want smaller than fullsize, then tkl, then mby 75%, then maybe 60%, then FKIT, 60%!

Man, what a journey it has been :))

Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #243 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 03:04:26 »
I never hung my arguments squarely on the peg of Amazon's ratings, though their accuracy and reliability dominated much of the previous discussion.
If you don't consider them to be accurate why would you use that to try to prove a point?  Or you do consider it accurate?

In the case of the Blackwidow, I consider it fairly accurate, though a recent poll leaves one to wonder.

What source did you derive the 15% failure rate?
Number of bad reviews to the number of total reviews.  Of course if there were a lot via shipping problems, etc, that number would be lower.  And of course this doesn't take into account ALL of the people that bought it...but looking at the number of people not happy with their purchase because of a problem, on a newly released item, that is high...Even if you lower that be a third, that is still 10%..

The Blackwidow's current overall rating is comparable to the Playstation 4 and Xbox One. If you consider that unacceptable, then so be it.

You mean the way a company like Microsoft got hammered by innumerable sources for the Xbox 360's "Red Ring of Death" or the flogging Sony took for the Playstation 4's "Blue Light of Death"?

Talking about a known bug or problem for a device is not a bad review..that is just reporting facts..

Bad review or otherwise, it doesn't change the fact that those bugs are mentioned in reviews for both consoles. Would 'reporting the facts' regarding known bugs or problems in a Blackwidow review (if there were any) be any different?

How many bad reviews are you seeing of new products from large companies?

I don't sort by bad reviews or negative ratings, but doing a quick check over at techradar turned up a few less than savory reviews of products by some fairly big names.

Yes, because my keyboard preferences have since changed subsequent purchasing a Blackwidow approx. 3 years ago.
Even with the changes you said would make it ok you wouldn't get it either...

Which isn't connected with doubts regarding the Blackwidow's reliability.

Can I ask how you arrived at purchasing OTHER keyboards?

I discovered vintage keyboards a few years back and that's where my interests currently reside.
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 September 2014, 03:17:48 by 1391406 »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #244 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 05:12:20 »
In the case of the Blackwidow, I consider it fairly accurate, though a recent poll leaves one to wonder.
Wonder about what?  Whether it is popular?  We know it is...that's all that poll is about, I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that..

The Blackwidow's current overall rating is comparable to the Playstation 4 and Xbox One. If you consider that unacceptable, then so be it.
And that is relevant how?  If I want a Playstation 4, I have one option.  If I want a game console, I have a handful of options.  If I want a mechanical keyboard I have how many options?

Bad review or otherwise, it doesn't change the fact that those bugs are mentioned in reviews for both consoles. Would 'reporting the facts' regarding known bugs or problems in a Blackwidow review (if there were any) be any different?
For a known issue, I don't consider that when reviewing a product...that is like knowing about the red ring of death and then complaining when you get it..But I can see what you're saying.  Either way, I don't have an option if I want a Playstation 4.  If there were the PlayChair 4 that played the same games but didn't have a problem, which one am I getting?

I don't sort by bad reviews or negative ratings, but doing a quick check over at techradar turned up a few less than savory reviews of products by some fairly big names.
Sorry, I should qualify this a bit...How many reviews from places getting their stuff for free are handing out bad reviews?  I see very very few...but then again, I rarely, if ever, rely on these sites for anything other than reviewing features and a brief overview of the product.  I know they can't review reliability and I don't care about their opinion about certain features or lack there of. 


Which isn't connected with doubts regarding the Blackwidow's reliability.

I discovered vintage keyboards a few years back and that's where my interests currently reside.

But if not for that and if they changed certain things you'd be open to it?

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #245 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 07:02:31 »


I hate the term "gaming" keyboard almost as much as I hate the term "DJ headsets"

You can game with any standard keyboard. Hell, we weren't playing Quake III Arena with all this fancy stuff 17 years ago.

Omg. 17 years ago. Brb gonna go cry.

Haha, made me laugh, mate! C'mon, quake and wolfenstein ET multiplayer was the two best things to ever happen ^.^ well, at least ET.

When I first came here I thought I needed a "gaming" keyboard to game, hence my first ever thread called "Gaming keyboards"... you lot turned me over yo :)) also didnt want smaller than fullsize, then tkl, then mby 75%, then maybe 60%, then FKIT, 60%!

Man, what a journey it has been :))

Those were the days! Looking back, I can't believe how good we played with those mechanical mice. Take the ball out, clean it before every match. No one is supposed to be that accurate with the railgun in Quake III, but we were, haha! I still have my old mechanical mice, they're a piece of history. When I upgraded to my Logitech MX518 it was like the best thing in the world. And that thing still works.

I've never liked full size keyboards as I never ever use the number pad, I am more of a 60% guy for sure. Though I like my TKL's as well. Just no damn numb pad. I like my mouse close  ^-^
IBM Model F | IMB Model M | Poker II MX Brown | Poker II MX Clear | Filco TKL MX Brown | Bastardized Razer Blackwidow TE MX Blue | Logitech G602 |  Cyborg R.A.T. 7 | | Logitech MX518 | Icemat  | Artisan Hien

Offline Sagii

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #246 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 07:10:22 »


I hate the term "gaming" keyboard almost as much as I hate the term "DJ headsets"

You can game with any standard keyboard. Hell, we weren't playing Quake III Arena with all this fancy stuff 17 years ago.

Omg. 17 years ago. Brb gonna go cry.

Haha, made me laugh, mate! C'mon, quake and wolfenstein ET multiplayer was the two best things to ever happen ^.^ well, at least ET.

When I first came here I thought I needed a "gaming" keyboard to game, hence my first ever thread called "Gaming keyboards"... you lot turned me over yo :)) also didnt want smaller than fullsize, then tkl, then mby 75%, then maybe 60%, then FKIT, 60%!

Man, what a journey it has been :))

Those were the days! Looking back, I can't believe how good we played with those mechanical mice. Take the ball out, clean it before every match. No one is supposed to be that accurate with the railgun in Quake III, but we were, haha! I still have my old mechanical mice, they're a piece of history. When I upgraded to my Logitech MX518 it was like the best thing in the world. And that thing still works.

I've never liked full size keyboards as I never ever use the number pad, I am more of a 60% guy for sure. Though I like my TKL's as well. Just no damn numb pad. I like my mouse close  ^-^

I'll have to admit I'm not old enough to rememer playing with mechanical mice, though :)) In fact, I'm only 20! But I've played ET more than all other games I've played throughout the years...... combined! (okey, not THAT much).
There's no game that will ever beat ET in my eyes. Not because it was a perfect game, but because everything combined made it awesome. The insanely nice and helpful community, which sadly eventually faded away, the long nights playing map after map, tweaking the ingame settings with cfgs, toubleshooting why the heck you can't connect, wanting to rip your hair out when playing a trickjumping map, and the list goes on. Ahhh, memories.

EDIT: Sorry, I got sidetracked. But yeah, after trying 60% I doubt I'll ever be able go back to anything bigger than TKL.

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #247 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 07:43:42 »


I hate the term "gaming" keyboard almost as much as I hate the term "DJ headsets"

You can game with any standard keyboard. Hell, we weren't playing Quake III Arena with all this fancy stuff 17 years ago.

Omg. 17 years ago. Brb gonna go cry.

Haha, made me laugh, mate! C'mon, quake and wolfenstein ET multiplayer was the two best things to ever happen ^.^ well, at least ET.

When I first came here I thought I needed a "gaming" keyboard to game, hence my first ever thread called "Gaming keyboards"... you lot turned me over yo :)) also didnt want smaller than fullsize, then tkl, then mby 75%, then maybe 60%, then FKIT, 60%!

Man, what a journey it has been :))

Those were the days! Looking back, I can't believe how good we played with those mechanical mice. Take the ball out, clean it before every match. No one is supposed to be that accurate with the railgun in Quake III, but we were, haha! I still have my old mechanical mice, they're a piece of history. When I upgraded to my Logitech MX518 it was like the best thing in the world. And that thing still works.

I've never liked full size keyboards as I never ever use the number pad, I am more of a 60% guy for sure. Though I like my TKL's as well. Just no damn numb pad. I like my mouse close  ^-^

I'll have to admit I'm not old enough to rememer playing with mechanical mice, though :)) In fact, I'm only 20! But I've played ET more than all other games I've played throughout the years...... combined! (okey, not THAT much).
There's no game that will ever beat ET in my eyes. Not because it was a perfect game, but because everything combined made it awesome. The insanely nice and helpful community, which sadly eventually faded away, the long nights playing map after map, tweaking the ingame settings with cfgs, toubleshooting why the heck you can't connect, wanting to rip your hair out when playing a trickjumping map, and the list goes on. Ahhh, memories.

EDIT: Sorry, I got sidetracked. But yeah, after trying 60% I doubt I'll ever be able go back to anything bigger than TKL.

I know what you mean. I miss the simplicity of old shooters, like Quake III and Counter Strike. I've been playing Battlefield for the past 10 years or so now and while I love it, Battlefield 4 just has way too much going on. Each class has like 15 class specific weapons and it's just too much. All the gadgets and stuff as well make it really hard to balance the game. Look at Quake III - there was one shotgun in the game. Battlefield has like 10.

The single player campaigns are ruined, too. In the past, you'd be on your own, trying to find your way to the objective, back tracking a lot. Now you have arrows and signs everywhere saying "GO HERE", "OBJECTIVE IS THAT WAY", "NOT THAT WAY" which is just annoying. Feels like you're not even playing the game for the most part, just following the signs.
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Offline 1391406

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Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #248 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 10:56:34 »
In the case of the Blackwidow, I consider it fairly accurate, though a recent poll leaves one to wonder.
Wonder about what?  Whether it is popular?  We know it is...that's all that poll is about, I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that..

That's precisely the point. If the Blackwidow (not necessarily the new model) is known to be unreliable, as some people are loathe to stress, why is it so popular? Why haven't pro reviewers pointed out known bugs or problems if, in fact, they exist(a la the PS4 and Xbox One)? If there's really a problem, where's the onslaught of YouTube videos from owners documenting it? For example, try searching YouTube for 'Xbox red ring of death' and you'll find upwards of 25+ pages of videos. By comparison, try searching for videos documenting problems related to the Blackwidow (any model) and tell me what you find.

The Blackwidow's current overall rating is comparable to the Playstation 4 and Xbox One. If you consider that unacceptable, then so be it.
And that is relevant how?  If I want a Playstation 4, I have one option.  If I want a game console, I have a handful of options.  If I want a mechanical keyboard I have how many options?

Okay, but what does that have to do with the issue -- you singled out the Blackwidow's dissatisfaction rate as being rather dismal, even though the PS4 and Xbox One have roughly the same rating. To address your question... if you want a Blackwidow Ultimate 2014 Elite, how many options do you have? If you want an 84-key IBM Model F, how many options do you have? If you want a Dell Quiet Key keyboard, you've really only got one option. So on and so forth.

However, if you want a gaming console, there are certainly more than a handful of options available.

Again, how is that related to the issue?

Bad review or otherwise, it doesn't change the fact that those bugs are mentioned in reviews for both consoles. Would 'reporting the facts' regarding known bugs or problems in a Blackwidow review (if there were any) be any different?
For a known issue, I don't consider that when reviewing a product...that is like knowing about the red ring of death and then complaining when you get it.

My point is that pro reviewers can and do note reliability issues, thus if there were known problems with the Blackwidow (any model) why haven't they been mentioned in at least some pro reviews?

I don't sort by bad reviews or negative ratings, but doing a quick check over at techradar turned up a few less than savory reviews of products by some fairly big names.
Sorry, I should qualify this a bit...How many reviews from places getting their stuff for free are handing out bad reviews?  I see very very few...but then again, I rarely, if ever, rely on these sites for anything other than reviewing features and a brief overview of the product.  I know they can't review reliability and I don't care about their opinion about certain features or lack there of.

How many reputable pro review sites can you name that never post a mediocre / negative review?

Which isn't connected with doubts regarding the Blackwidow's reliability.

I discovered vintage keyboards a few years back and that's where my interests currently reside.

But if not for that and if they changed certain things you'd be open to it?

If I were into gaming keyboards, sure.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: I went back to a Black Widow, what!?
« Reply #249 on: Wed, 17 September 2014, 20:58:22 »
That's precisely the point. If the Blackwidow (not necessarily the new model) is known to be unreliable, as some people are loathe to stress, why is it so popular? Why haven't pro reviewers pointed out known bugs or problems if, in fact, they exist(a la the PS4 and Xbox One)? If there's really a problem, where's the onslaught of YouTube videos from owners documenting it? For example, try searching YouTube for 'Xbox red ring of death' and you'll find upwards of 25+ pages of videos. By comparison, try searching for videos documenting problems related to the Blackwidow (any model) and tell me what you find.
Why is it so popular?  Marketing?  Ignorance?  Why did you buy one?  There are tons of people on here who have a Razer as their first Mech Keyboard...mainly because they didn't know anything else existed.    Or do you think it has to do with quality?  I doubt you do...

Okay, but what does that have to do with the issue -- you singled out the Blackwidow's dissatisfaction rate as being rather dismal, even though the PS4 and Xbox One have roughly the same rating. To address your question... if you want a Blackwidow Ultimate 2014 Elite, how many options do you have? If you want an 84-key IBM Model F, how many options do you have? If you want a Dell Quiet Key keyboard, you've really only got one option. So on and so forth.

However, if you want a gaming console, there are certainly more than a handful of options available.
There are more than a handful of consoles (in each generation?)?  No there aren't.  Sure you could go back and get an older one that has no new game support, is just getting old from use or old from time.  I'm sure you understood what I was referring to as well...Or was that not really obvious?

And you're talking about one specific model of keyboard..If you only want THAT one, you don't have an option....but there are plenty of alternatives in the mechanical keyboard market...There are not in the console market.

So as far as the Amazon star rating..First off, the evaluation time is different...PS4, etc rating is over time where issues have developed and people have come back and complained...With the Razer, there hasn't been enough time to evaluate reliability over time..so the sampling is different and would not reflect how the Razer will do given some real usage.  What you can say is for the short period of time the Razer has been out (maybe we're looking at different amazon ratings, I'm looking at the 2014 blackwidows), there are a significant number of issues....Secondly, would it matter what the star rating is on a Playstation 4?  You either get that or an Xbox One or Wii U....IN some cases those aren't any better, they don't have the game selection don't have the specific game (replace any of the consoles with any console from that gen, same thing).  But lets say one console had a really bad problem and the others did not, would that impact people's buying decision?  It would for some...And if they all have similar issues?  You don't have other options...But again, if you want certain games, etc...you don't have other options available..

My point is that pro reviewers can and do note reliability issues, thus if there were known problems with the Blackwidow (any model) why haven't they been mentioned in at least some pro reviews?
Easy answer for this...First thing is, they probably reviewed a new device.  Second thing is, they can't be bothered to come back and talk about how the soldering was weak on this keyboard so they're not going to write an article on that.  And frankly, they probably haven't used it enough to get to that point.  They don't come back and talk about how this button on their console broke either or this minor thing eventually broke.    There is no interest in that.  It isn't like covering a software bug that bricks your box.  Or an issue that covers EVERY keyboard or every box.  Are you saying because there aren't pro reviews about any type of reliability issue it doesn't exist?  I'm sure you know better than that..

How many reputable pro review sites can you name that never post a mediocre / negative review?

You see it all the time in different industries...including the tech industry.  The bigger names will rarely get a bad review.  Bad review = no ad revenue, bad review = not getting stuff sent to you for free from that company.  Some of them don't care (they shouldn't) but a lot do.  Keep in mind, an "objective" comparison test where you're testing how fast X device is compared to Y is different...In many cases you've probably let them know you're doing the test..the results are what the results are.

If I were into gaming keyboards, sure.
Well if they made changes to the keyboard you were talking about it wouldn't even be a gaming keyboard, it would just be a mech keyboard...So you'd buy it over some of the other options available out there in the same category?