Is a Chair AT ALL ergonomic?

[tp4tissue]

I've tried so many..

and regardless of cost, design, pillow ++, modifications..


At the end of the day..  a chair doesn't beat lying down...


I posit, that we weren't meant to SIT for  any length of time.





regarding standing desks..   Um.. IDK , did ya'll do some sort of training for this...  I get maybe 1 hr into it, and I feel tired..

I'd agree I'm in bad shape these days.. but I can still do 2 miles every other day.. so it's not exactly Maximum-Potato here..

[exitfire401]

Wow, I've finally found something I can completely agree with you on. Basically, the only chairs that are comfortable to me are recliners. I spend most of my days in desks, and by the time I get home, I'll game at my desk for a little bit, then lying on the couch or bed because my back can't take it anymore. I know my posture isn't the greatest while sitting, and that's probably the whole problem, but even when I do correct my posture (band taught me proper posture for 8 years) I still end up in a little bit of lower back distress not long after.

As for standing desks, I love them. Currently debating building a treadmill desk for the livingroom for the times I'm working at home. I have no problems walking/running, and that would probably be exactly what I need.

[Sent]

Debating about a standing desk when I move because sitting now just becomes painful after a while.  I'm crazy active but having to sit down at a desk all day just kills my back and my ass.  Doesn't really matter what chair I'm in.

[Findecanor]

I agree. The "ergonomic" office chairs where I have to sit straight have used have always felt the least ergonomic, and given me the most trouble. At home I am always reclined in front of the computer, with the feet up.

[Input Nirvana]

I'm a lounger, feet up if at all possible. When I worked at a firm, I excelled, but I "looked" like a lazy-loaf, and I know it's true. I saw pics. I looked like I was being propped up by the desk. But like I said, I excelled. I was even counseled about my "lacking". LOL after almost a year I could do whatever a wanted I wanted  without reprisal, but still looked like a bum. I've found comfort is key to productivity, attention, quality and happiness. I'm backing down from $1000 ergo chairs at this point, and considering a combination of sit one way, sit another very different way, stand a little bit, sit reclining, sit normal...blah blah....variation is key.

Gonna try a combo of:
"ergo chair"
"kneeling chair"
"designed for reclining/feet up chair"
"standing"
"standing stool"

[jacobolus]

Gonna try a combo of:
"ergo chair"
"kneeling chair"
"designed for reclining/feet up chair"
"standing"
"standing stool"

Between a computer display on a nice adjustable arm + a Capisco chair (accommodates 3–4 different positions) + a motorized sit/stand desk + a couch and laptop, I’m pretty happy.

I find kneeling chairs only work for me for a limited amount of time, maybe up to an hour.

[Input Nirvana]

Gonna try a combo of:
"ergo chair"
"kneeling chair"
"designed for reclining/feet up chair"
"standing"
"standing stool"

Between a computer display on a nice adjustable arm + a Capisco chair (accommodates 3–4 different positions) + a motorized sit/stand desk + a couch and laptop, I’m pretty happy.

You had me at "couch"

[tp4tissue]

Honestly ..  I can't wait until we get uploaded into the Verse.. and shed these silly soft mechanisms.

[Novus]

What about those ball things.

[Sent]

What about those ball things.

What ball things?  Those huge yoga balls?  My friend uses one of those but she's also hardcore into crossfit using the wrong form so...I dunno...

[Input Nirvana]

Crossfit can be awesome! Total conditioning and hard ire fun!

Those Capisco chairs with a headrest are bad ass.

[katushkin]

Beanbags.

[tp4tissue]

Beanbags.

doesn't help.. tried it ...no upper back / neck support

[Novus]

What about those ball things.

What ball things?  Those huge yoga balls?  My friend uses one of those but she's also hardcore into crossfit using the wrong form so...I dunno...

ya those huge yoga balls.
Ppl love using that **** around here instead of an actual chair.

Oh speaking of which, I'd love a higher desk and a drafting chair.

[JPG]

You need to get up often as far as I know. Even the best chair is not good if you use it for too long. For sure a good chair adapted to you will help, but in the end siting for too long (or standing up for too long) is bad for you. Never tried anything like that, but if I could I would like to have a station where I can easily switch from sitting to standing so I could do it every hour or so. But I never tried anything else than a standard sitting setup so don't take it for cash but more as a source of inspiration for your dream setup!

[Novus]

SEE smoke breaks are healthy!

[jacobolus]

Beanbags.

doesn't help.. tried it ...no upper back / neck support

You probably slouch all the time. Most westerners (myself included) are habitual slouchers with terrible posture. We walk, run, lie down, and sit with our backs and necks curved down all the time. We spend way too much time sitting in chairs (in cars, school desks, at home) which encourage terrible posture by making it incredibly uncomfortable to sit properly. We don’t run enough, or get enough exercise in general.

For people used to sitting and standing properly, who have strong enough core muscles to support themselves comfortably, the most comfortable way to sit is straight up, without any external “upper back support”. (For instance, watch any 4 year-old anywhere in the world, or any 20-year-old rural peasant farmer, as they stand, sit, or squat. Their upper backs and necks stay substantially straight, and their heads are supported perfectly well by their spines.)

[tp4tissue]

Beanbags.

doesn't help.. tried it ...no upper back / neck support

You probably slouch all the time. Most westerners (myself included) are habitual slouchers with terrible posture. We walk, run, lie down, and sit with our backs and necks curved down all the time. We spend way too much time sitting in chairs (in cars, school desks, at home) which encourage terrible posture by making it incredibly uncomfortable to sit properly. We don’t run enough, or get enough exercise in general.

For people used to sitting and standing properly, who have strong enough core muscles to support themselves comfortably, the most comfortable way to sit is straight up, without any external “upper back support”. (For instance, watch any 4 year-old anywhere in the world, or any 20-year-old rural peasant farmer, as they stand, sit, or squat. Their upper backs and necks stay substantially straight, and their heads are supported perfectly well by their spines.)

hrrm....

I can accept that Core strength training is helpful for supporting ones back..


But that is not the discussion here...


I find Chairs = bad,  PERIOD...

[jacobolus]

I can accept that Core strength training is helpful for supporting ones back..

But that is not the discussion here...

I find Chairs = bad,  PERIOD...

I think that’s pretty oversimplified.

Sitting for long uninterrupted periods of time – or sitting too much in a day – is definitely bad. Sitting in chairs that encourage slouching is also bad. There are chairs however which encourage a more neutral posture.

Even a standard chair (something like the below picture) is fine if you’re only sitting in it for 40–60 minutes at a time, and then going outside to play for a while:

(Personally I like this type of chair a lot better than an Aeron, Leap, or similar “ergonomic” thingy.)

But then there’s a whole world out there of saddle chairs, kneeling chairs, tall stools, and other types of seating which encourage body movement and good upright posture. Not every chair is as bad as a car seat.

Take a look: http://www.ergodepot.com/category_s/168.htm

Anyway, I also think standing desks (or motorized sit–stand desks) are pretty great. As is having the ability to lie down and type for a while on a couch or bed, or on the floor. Switching positions frequently, taking breaks, and getting plenty of exercise during the day are all great.

But chairs are also fine, used in moderation.

[Puddsy]

you're not thinking about it right

we need to invent the "lying down" desk.

[jacobolus]

you're not thinking about it right

we need to invent the "lying down" desk.

These exist. There are several geekhackers who routinely work lying down and have built complicated setups to support it. I sometimes work lying down, using a laptop.

By the way, this whole discussion should be moved to the “ergonomics” subforum.

[tp4tissue]

you're not thinking about it right

we need to invent the "lying down" desk.

These exist. There are several geekhackers who routinely work lying down and have built complicated setups to support it. I sometimes work lying down, using a laptop.

By the way, this whole discussion should be moved to the “ergonomics” subforum.

I've switched to the lying down computing thing for the past few days.. my monitor is 1.3 meters above me.

I am in the process of evaluating the proper mechanism to build the writing surface..

This is a tough one..

[Novus]

Somebody post a picture of those monitors in this circular thingie you sit in.
Hopefully somebody knows what I'm talking about.

[tp4tissue]

Somebody post a picture of those monitors in this circular thingie you sit in.
Hopefully somebody knows what I'm talking about.

the scorpion thing?

[Sent]

How the hell do you have a lying down battlestation.  I haven't seen this, yet. O_o

[katushkin]

You need a big beanbag. Sit at the front and push the beans to the back to support your head

[Novus]

It's like a more insane version of this thing http://oddstuffmagazine.com/future-computer-workstation-emperor-200.html

[tp4tissue]

It's like a more insane version of this thing http://oddstuffmagazine.com/future-computer-workstation-emperor-200.html

Well, the issue is... it's stillll just a damn chair.. no matter how adjustable chairs are.. sitting is a fundamental problem..

[Novus]

[divito]

It's like a more insane version of this thing http://oddstuffmagazine.com/future-computer-workstation-emperor-200.html

There was a product similar to this probably before its time, but the chair and mounts allowed for an almost 45 degree chair/monitor experience that helped maintain a flat back for posture purposes. I just can't for the life of me remember the name of it.

[Tiramisuu]

The problem starts at the point of pooping in a toilet.   A normal human animal squats to **** and squats to sit.   If you had the mobility that a reasonable human animal requires to **** then squatting comfortably, as much of the planet does, could resolve much of the problem.

Our odd culture has turned us into cripples.   

[tp4tissue]

The problem starts at the point of pooping in a toilet.   A normal human animal squats to **** and squats to sit.   If you had the mobility that a reasonable human animal requires to **** then squatting comfortably, as much of the planet does, could resolve much of the problem.

Our odd culture has turned us into cripples.   

h/o   could you explain the  p00  allegory more clearly..  I'm not seeing the connection.

[jacobolus]

h/o   could you explain the  p00  allegory more clearly..  I'm not seeing the connection.

Until sometime in the last century, pretty much everyone in the world squatted down to poop. Now, we sit on toilets to poop instead, and the vast majority of Americans (myself included) are not physically capable of squatting – their calves and ankles are simply too inflexible, and if they try to squat they either need to perch on their toes (instead of flat footed) or else they tip over backwards.

If you watch, children up until the age of 5–7 squat just fine. Then at some point, sitting all day in chairs at school, coming home and sitting in chairs or on couches, etc. slowly reduce flexibility until most middle school students can’t squat anymore (even many/most high school athletes can’t squat). But if you look in other cultures (for instance, if you go to China or Africa or rural parts of Latin America) everyone including retired grandparents can squat just fine. Though I’m sure this is changing and within a generation or two they’ll all be just as physically useless as Americans.

[intelli78]

did ya'll do some sort of training for this...  I get maybe 1 hr into it, and I feel tired..

They do get easier to use, the more you use them. But you don't necessarily have to use them all day; even if you stand only 1/3-1/2 of the day (and use a tall chair the rest of the time, or have an adjustable desk), it will be a significant improvement.

[tp4tissue]

h/o   could you explain the  p00  allegory more clearly..  I'm not seeing the connection.

Until sometime in the last century, pretty much everyone in the world squatted down to poop. Now, we sit on toilets to poop instead, and the vast majority of Americans (myself included) are not physically capable of squatting – their calves and ankles are simply too inflexible, and if they try to squat they either need to perch on their toes (instead of flat footed) or else they tip over backwards.

If you watch, children up until the age of 5–7 squat just fine. Then at some point, sitting all day in chairs at school, coming home and sitting in chairs or on couches, etc. slowly reduce flexibility until most middle school students can’t squat anymore (even many/most high school athletes can’t squat). But if you look in other cultures (for instance, if you go to China or Africa or rural parts of Latin America) everyone including retired grandparents can squat just fine. Though I’m sure this is changing and within a generation or two they’ll all be just as physically useless as Americans.

Hmm.. I did squat p00, when I was younger... < age 7

But I can't do it now because my calf muscle is too big...   it just bounces me onto my butt.



I'm not sure squatting is the answer to RSI computer stuff though.

[Tiramisuu]

It probably is.   The monitor belongs on the floor with the keyboard and mouse.   If you can't comfortably squat and work from the ground then your normal year mobility is the problem and you should be working on it.   

There are some completely bizarre things that we have done too ourselves culturally.   A healthy animal doesn't have to wipe poo off of itself because it is unable assume the appropriate position.

A natural,  and comfortable position would have a human squatting and working off of the ground.   ergonomic chairs,  desks,  et al are a joke.   

[noisyturtle]

Stuff a pillow case with baby ducks. ****'s ergonomic as ****.

[tp4tissue]

It probably is.   The monitor belongs on the floor with the keyboard and mouse.   If you can't comfortably squat and work from the ground then your normal year mobility is the problem and you should be working on it.   

There are some completely bizarre things that we have done too ourselves culturally.   A healthy animal doesn't have to wipe poo off of itself because it is unable assume the appropriate position.

A natural,  and comfortable position would have a human squatting and working off of the ground.   ergonomic chairs,  desks,  et al are a joke.   

Are you sure....  about this... I've never seen a human work off the ground...

[microsoft windows]

I've found chairs that allow the sitter to lean back a little bit to be the most ergonomic.

[Malphas]

I bought my computer chair from Costco for a few hundred pounds on impulse during a random visit and it turned out to be the most comfortable thing I've every sat in.

[Malphas]

It probably is.   The monitor belongs on the floor with the keyboard and mouse.   If you can't comfortably squat and work from the ground then your normal year mobility is the problem and you should be working on it.   

There are some completely bizarre things that we have done too ourselves culturally.   A healthy animal doesn't have to wipe poo off of itself because it is unable assume the appropriate position.

A natural,  and comfortable position would have a human squatting and working off of the ground.   ergonomic chairs,  desks,  et al are a joke.   

I doubt even palaeolithic humans maintained a squat position for hours on end, I'm also fairly confident they would have had the bright idea to sit on a rock or a log or whatever at some point.

[DasHHKBProM]

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S19825153/#/S19825153
this thing is life changing

[jacobolus]

I doubt even palaeolithic humans maintained a squat position for hours on end, I'm also fairly confident they would have had the bright idea to sit on a rock or a log or whatever at some point.

People in peasant societies squat all the time, for long periods of time. They squat while cooking, while eating, while working in fields, while talking to each other, while making things, while pooping, etc. Children everywhere do the same thing, squatting easily and frequently.

Obviously people also sometimes sit on logs or rocks or stools, and sometimes sit on the ground. Notably, there are many places where chairs and stools that are about 8–12 inches tall are quite popular. People sit on these in mostly a squat position, putting most of their weight on their feet.

Most people in western industrialized countries are not even capable of squatting with their feet flat on the ground. Their ankles and leg muscles are simply too inflexible, and when they try they either need to raise their heels up or balance against something, or they’ll fall over backward. (This applies to me too.) When westerners sit on chairs, including very low chairs, they put most of their weight on their butts (more precisely, their sit bones) and almost no weight on their feet.

[Malphas]

I doubt even palaeolithic humans maintained a squat position for hours on end, I'm also fairly confident they would have had the bright idea to sit on a rock or a log or whatever at some point.

People in peasant societies squat all the time, for long periods of time. They squat while cooking, while eating, while working in fields, while talking to each other, while making things, while pooping, etc. Children everywhere do the same thing, squatting easily and frequently.

Obviously people also sometimes sit on logs or rocks or stools, and sometimes sit on the ground. Notably, there are many places where chairs and stools that are about 8–12 inches tall are quite popular. People sit on these in mostly a squat position, putting most of their weight on their feet.

Most people in western industrialized countries are not even capable of squatting with their feet flat on the ground. Their ankles and leg muscles are simply too inflexible, and when they try they either need to raise their heels up or balance against something, or they’ll fall over backward. (This applies to me too.) When westerners sit on chairs, including very low chairs, they put most of their weight on their butts (more precisely, their sit bones) and almost no weight on their feet.

Nah sorry, I still don't buy that they maintained this position for more than say, an hour tops. People sit at computers for up to, like, twelve hours a day; which is obviously unhealthy anyway, but trying to maintain a squat position for that length of time is ludicrously impractical.

[Grim Fandango]

SEE smoke breaks are healthy!

I join my colleagues on their smoke breaks. Except I do not smoke.

[Altis]

The most comfortable chair I've sat in for extended periods is... (get this).. the captain seats of a 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport. Yes, yes, it sounds absurd.. but they were so supportive in just the right way. They were also really uncommon as they were the "premium cloth" upgrade, whereas most people were either regular cloth or leather, which were both just average.

It had something to do with the upper-back portion... It's as if it allowed my shoulder blades a little extra depth. I find so many chairs these days are curved width-wise, which doesn't make any sense to me.

Note the upper grooves allowing room for the shoulder blades, center groove for bony spines, and lateral hugging at the torso.




It's a shame the fabric looked to be from a voyageur bus. This was also back when headrests weren't pushing your head forward as they do today.

Now if only I could find something with similar back accommodations.

[jacobolus]

The most comfortable chair I've sat in for extended periods is... (get this).. the captain seats of a 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport. Yes, yes, it sounds absurd.. but they were so supportive in just the right way. They were also really uncommon as they were the "premium cloth" upgrade, whereas most people were either regular cloth or leather, which were both just average.

Funny, that seat looks extremely uncomfortable to me (forces the pelvis forward, insufficient lower back support, encourages slouching and makes it pretty much impossible to sit straight.... I hate car seats)..

[StylinGreymon]

I've had similar thoughts on pillows, mattresses, everything.

I've been having a bit of back pain, and have begun questioning it all.

[tp4tissue]

I've had similar thoughts on pillows, mattresses, everything.

I've been having a bit of back pain, and have begun questioning it all.

yea man.. being human suxxxx


Wish I was like a whale or something....   You just know with all that ergonomic water, they got no back pain..

[Input Nirvana]

I was going to go look at Steelcase Leap, can get used but not actually "used" because the box selling them never opened (startup) black on black for $350-400. But no headrests

Need to buy the Lead with the headrests as part of the back...not able to retrofit.