Touch typing for kids.

[ksm123]

Any parents out there?
My parents gave me my first computer when I was thirteen, by my fifteen birthday I was touch-typing. These days kids grew up with computers around them.
Do you teach your kids to touch type, or do you wait for your kids to discover touch typing by themselves?

If you tried to teach your children this skill, please share your experience?
When did you start (in terms of kid's age, and also kid's development of reading and handwriting skills)?
Were there any problems with small hands on big keyboard?
What keyboard did you use (one with standard spacing of keys, or maybe a netbook minified keyboard)?
Which layout did you choose and why?
What methods did you use?

[Grim Fandango]

 I don't have kids, but I imagine that nowadays kids are taught in school how to touch type. I personally would try to find out how they will deal with it in their school, and then make my decision of whether or not I should teach them based on that.

[davkol]

I'm not a parent, only a self-taught touch typist since the age of 14 (I went cold turkey, because it looked cool).

I've read a paper about teaching ~5-year-old kids QWERTY and DSK; it was published in the 80's though (which means there weren't phones/tablets around).There was a consensus that it wasn't possible to learn touch typing until 10 plus/minus a few years. However, these 5-year-olds learned most of the 10-finger technique quite quickly *on DSK* (but struggled with QWERTY).

Matrix keyboards are highly recommended for such use, because it's easier to find letters on them.

I don't have kids, but I imagine that nowadays kids are taught in school how to touch type.

Only in business schools actually, and even less than in the typewriter era.

[ksm123]

I imagine that nowadays kids are taught in school how to touch type.

I live in Poland, here they do not learn to touch type in primary school (this is an info from my coworker, whose three kids attend public primary school). They used to teach to touch type in business oriented high schools, but this was on typewriters (in the second half of 1990's).
Learning to touch type, in ones teens is not a challenge. Teenager's hands are adult sized or nearly so, spelling and handwriting skills are already developed. It is just a matter of acquiring muscle memory.

I've read a paper about teaching ~5-year-old kids QWERTY and DSK; it was published in the 80's though (...)

I suppose, this kind of article would be narrowly focused on differences between learning QWERTY and learning Dvorak.

My interests are more general:
When it is most beneficial to start?
Does acquiring keyboarding skills early, interfere with handwriting skills?
What methods do one use to teach kids touch typing?

[davkol]

I've read a paper about teaching ~5-year-old kids QWERTY and DSK; it was published in the 80's though (...)

I suppose, this kind of article would be narrowly focused on differences between learning QWERTY and learning Dvorak.

Nope. They wanted to know whether so young kids would be capable of learning the 10-finger typing technique as well.

Some Apple II software originally designed for practicing alphabet was used.

I've never read anything about concerns related to handwriting (except obviously motivation).

[teclat]

From the bio (http://seanwrona.com/typing.php) of one of the fastest typists (Sean Wrona):

I taught myself to touch-type when I was about three years old on the old DOS program CPT Personal Touch-Typing. I attained a high speed of 83 wpm (415 cpm) at age six and 108 wpm (540 cpm) at age ten, which was faster than any of the other students or teachers at Smith Road Elementary.

¿3 years old? 

[user 18]

I'm in Canada, I learned typing through grades 2-7. Note that I still don't touch type properly

I also was encouraged at home to use a typing tutor program, but I got easily frustrated with it at that age. This was partially due to hand size, and partially just wanting to play games instead. I don't remember when I started touch typing on a full size board, but it was definitely before I was 13, and I was probably around 50-60wpm at that point (80-90 now). Most of that proficiency came from just using the keyboard

I used -- and still use -- QWERTY because that was what we had.

By the time I was in second grade, I was at a much higher reading level than most children that age. However, my printing and handwriting was abysmal (despite being taught cursive writing from grades 2-4). My handwriting has steadily improved, to the point where now I can always know what I wrote, although most others still can't read my faster writing. Probably the biggest breakthrough there was when I discovered pens came with finer points than 1mm -- words stopped looking like formless blobs after that

I still find myself *slowly* increasing my typing speed as I spend more time doing work on the computer for school. If I actually sat down and trained myself, I could probably get over 100wpm, but I don't feel like I need to get that fast. I'm basically putting down thoughts as fast as I can formulate them, so that's the real bottleneck in terms of speed.

I think that hits all the questions you had. Hopefully it's mostly accurate, it *is* depending on my memories from years ago, which have repeatedly been shown to be imperfect.

[Grim Fandango]

I think that with a bit of effort touch typing can be picked up at any stage in life. Personally I did not start touch typing until I was about 20. Before then, no one had taught me how. I simply used one of those free software programs and kept repeating the exercises. Soon enough I could type at about 20 WPM. Which is atrocious I know. But that was enough for em to switch cold turkey, and it only took months for that number to triple, and some more time before it eventually quadrupled.

I am now a much faster typist than I was before, but that is not the main benefit in my opinion. The best thing about it is that it allows me to interact with a PC in a way that is much easier and more comfortable. I do not  have to constantly look down and look back up, but instead I can pay attention to whatever I am doing on the screen.

[Premonition]

I'm not a parent, only a self-taught touch typist since the age of 14 (I went cold turkey, because it looked cool).

I've read a paper about teaching ~5-year-old kids QWERTY and DSK; it was published in the 80's though (which means there weren't phones/tablets around).There was a consensus that it wasn't possible to learn touch typing until 10 plus/minus a few years. However, these 5-year-olds learned most of the 10-finger technique quite quickly *on DSK* (but struggled with QWERTY).

Matrix keyboards are highly recommended for such use, because it's easier to find letters on them.

I don't have kids, but I imagine that nowadays kids are taught in school how to touch type.

Only in business schools actually, and even less than in the typewriter era.

I'm actually writing an entry about layouts, would it be possible for you to link me to the study?

[davkol]

Okay, see
Joyce, Bonnie and Roy Moxley. “Comparing Children’s Typing Skills Using the Dvorak and QWERTY Keyboards on a Microcomputer.” #ED313002.

It isn't what I meant though. Something more comprehensive was published later.

[Premonition]

Okay, see
Joyce, Bonnie and Roy Moxley. “Comparing Children’s Typing Skills Using the Dvorak and QWERTY Keyboards on a Microcomputer.” #ED313002.

It isn't what I meant though. Something more comprehensive was published later.

I understand, it'll be one of several sources. Thanks again!

[ADFX_Pixy]

There's a technology class that's a half-credit (1 semester) and it's required at my high school. Pretty much all freshmen took the class just to get it out of the way. It was a very informative but dry class. Honestly it wasn't even informative at all. I knew how to touch type since 5th grade. I had a 56 WPM at the time and was nearly the top of my class in speed. Some kids couldn't reach 35 WPM which I think is pretty sad. I remember a test was to go A-Z with the keyboard using the correct fingers when typing it.

[tp4tissue]

So, you'd have to learn to read first...  this is a tough one on more people than you think...

[CPTBadAss]

I literally took a typing class in elementary school. We had drills from the teacher and used a Mavis Beacon Typing program. The final was to touch type a phrase and they put a cover over our hands so we couldn't look at the keyboard. We did QWERTY and used normal rubber dome keyboards.

[ksm123]

I literally took a typing class in elementary school.

Thank you very much, can you share something more about this class?

How old were you at the time?
Was the teacher paying attention to your technique (wrists floating above keyboard, striking key but not hammering on them, etc.)?

[CPTBadAss]

1) How old were you at the time?
2) Was the teacher paying attention to your technique (wrists floating above keyboard, striking key but not hammering on them?

1) The class is offered when we're in fourth grade, so the kids in the class are about 10 or 11 years old.

2) Yes, the teacher would teach touch typing and proper technique. We would be reprimanded if we were working in Mavis Beacon but were typing poorly. There were also pictures around the class room showing proper technique. Unfortunately for me, I don't have 100% ideal touch typing but it works well enough for me. I still strike some keys with the wrong finger (right ring finger on delete for example).

[ksm123]

1) The class is offered when we're in fourth grade, so the kids in the class are about 10 or 11 years old.

That's interesting, follow up questions if you do not mind:

What typing speed did you attain?
Were you using this skills actively in the following years?
What came easier for you, handwriting or typing?
Were you allowed (in elementary) to bring in your written assignments as printouts, or were you required to do them in handwriting?

I've seen, you're a fountain pen collector. Do you practice calligraphy too?

[CPTBadAss]

1) What typing speed did you attain?
2) Were you using this skills actively in the following years?
3) What came easier for you, handwriting or typing?
4) Were you allowed (in elementary) to bring in your written assignments as printouts, or were you required to do them in handwriting?
5) I've seen, you're a fountain pen collector. Do you practice calligraphy too?

1) I don't think my typing speed in elementary school was very fast. I now type around 80-90 WPM. I suspect my elementary school speed was around 40-50 WPM.

2) Yes, I grew up in the time when AIM/MSN Messenger was very popular. Then I played a ton of computer games in high school. Most of my homework needed to be done on the computer in high school as well.

3) I think that handwriting was harder than typing. I took to typing fairly easily. Handwriting is still something I am improving.

4) We started learning cursive handwriting in second grade? Maybe even earlier. So maybe around ages 7-8? We were forced to do all of our work in cursive until grade 5. So until age 11-12. We were encouraged to hand in handwritten homework until high school. So about age 14.

5) Yes I do collect fountain pens and I am working on my handwriting and calligraphy. I have a few writing samples up in the fountain pen thread but I'm not happy with any of my handwriting. And I'm not ready to share any of the calligraphy I've tried; it's very poor.

[jacobolus]

The cursive handwriting style used in American schools is IMO much harder to learn than necessary, and not very legible. It’s based on styles that were supposed to look “fancy” in the 19th century, rather than be easy to learn or read.

I think this guy has generally the right idea, and when I have children I plan to try using his materials to teach them to write: http://briem.net

As for kids touch typing, I suspect that a smaller keyboard would be helpful. (Actually in general, I think a keyboard that came in very small, small, medium, and large sizes (with the key spacing varying for folks with different hand sizes) would be a big improvement over the one-size-fits-all current keyboards. Unfortunately most of the nicest keyswitches aren’t small enough to properly design keyboards for, say, 8–10 year olds.

[ksm123]

Unfortunately most of the nicest keyswitches aren’t small enough to properly design keyboards for, say, 8–10 year olds.

MX-Compatible key switches can be crammed much tighter (15.3mm between centres of switches), it is just a matter of custom PCB (and GeekHackers do have experience in this). Keycaps are much bigger problem. One would have to redesign keycaps, traditional shape of a hood protecting switch mechanism from environment is out of the question, its bottom would have to be flat with inverse cruciform stem sticking out in centre.

The cursive handwriting style used in American schools is IMO much harder to learn than necessary, and not very legible.

They do not teach cursive in Poland anymore, they abandoned it when nibs ceased to be most common writing implement. The model they teach is too calligraphic and not well suited for fast and legible writing. They expect pupils to simplify it around 3rd or 4th grade (9-10yo) by themselves, most teachers do not interfere if their pupil uses another legible model.
I've re-learned to write in italics as an adult. For it's easier to write legibly (on the few occasions when typing is impossible or non-practical). I suppose that my son will try to imitate my writing style and learn italics too.

[jacobolus]

Most American cursive taught in schools looks like this:


It’s a minor modification of the writing taught via the “Palmer Method”


Both are supposed to be a simplification of Spencerian script that’s a bit easier for small children. But Spencerian script is a terrible model for anything; it was designed to look fancy (“professional”) for business correspondence in the mid-19th century, not to be legible:


Most European writing styles from the 16th–18th centuries seem better than the 19th century American styles.

[davkol]

Compact keyboards help with mousing (in case of both children and adults).

Johnson, P., & Cui, L. (2010). Postural benefits for children and adults when using the mouse next to a small keyboard. Proceedings Of The Human Factors And Ergonomics Society Annual Meeting, 54(20), 1794.

[CPTBadAss]

For what it's worth, I learned Palmer in elementary school.

[tp4tissue]

Most American cursive taught in schools looks like this:

Show Image

It’s a minor modification of the writing taught via the “Palmer Method”

Show Image

Both are supposed to be a simplification of Spencerian script that’s a bit easier for small children. But Spencerian script is a terrible model for anything; it was designed to look fancy (“professional”) for business correspondence in the mid-19th century, not to be legible:

Show Image

Most European writing styles from the 16th–18th centuries seem better than the 19th century American styles.

SPEN died because of the flexpen requirement..

[Premonition]

For what it's worth, I learned Palmer in elementary school.

I as well, I'm an older teenager, but I guess most young kids these days aren't learning cursive at all.

[ksm123]

I guess most young kids these days aren't learning cursive at all.

Cursive was de-facto standard for "grown" writing on your side of The Pond, but technology made it obsolete.

• Typewriters took over business correspondence in second half of XX century
• WYSIWYG word processors and graphical printers became standard home and office equipment by mid 1990's
• Email, and later IM took place of most hand written personal letters

This reduced fine penmanship from a skill crucial to ones career, into a hobby. Kids today learn to write just enough to get them through school.

My parents told me, that in their days, there were no exercise books, they were just text books and notebook, homework was based on textbook or teacher's dictated instructions.
Today, there is huge business of "one time use" exercise books, kids rarely write more then a paragraph, usually they just fill out gaps. (that does not include "compositions" in their native language classes)
I've seen changes of this trend in late 1980's and 1990's. I've started school with textbook and notebooks, but somewhere around 5 grade exercise books started to appear.

Abundance of copy machines, changed the way of testing.
- In the beginning of my education, we started with empty sheets, teacher dictated questions or written them on blackboard, and we written down answers. This necessitated  short questions and long descriptive answers. Quick hand gave an advantage, and "slow writers" grades suffered.
- In high school, we usually were given copies of tests. This were usually multiple choice, or fill in gaps questions, that were easier for teachers to check. As a side effect "writing speed" impact on grades was minimized.

But where cursive fits in it?
Cursive requires a lot of practice, without practice it devolves into illegible scribble at speed. I've seen Palmer's method instruction manual, it looked like sadism to me, quite incompatible with today stress-less upbringing. Teaching cursive made sense, when it is investment for a life.
Italics is slower but degrades less at speed. It wouldn't do for some one who handwrites to earn his bread, but its flatter learning curve makes better investment of small amount of time for everyone else.

By the time students leave high school and start college level education, they take their notes on laptops, and their handwriting devolves into signing test sheets and making ticks on tests.

My personal experience:
This year my handwriting was limited to signing my name on some lists, and filling in some forms. I've used up just two cartridges in my (well flowing) pen.

[Glod]

In public school they don't teach kids cursive anymore here in central Virginia. I sucked at cursive but at least i can read it.

In public school they don't teach kids typing anymore here in central Virginia. I learned how to type in elementary school, "Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing" on a Apple IIGS FTW. It could be an elective though but its not required.

In some parts of Virginia they are giving elementary kids iPads and going pencil-less which is absurd

Schools encourage the hunt and peck method of typing these days, they don't even go over why there are bumps on F and J i bet.

The proper use of a keyboard is dying. I've even heard from friends that police/911 dispatchers are hard to hire in this area because the job requires you type over 80WPM (maybe faster).

long live touch typers

[Premonition]

long live touch typers

Long live!

[DWawa]

At least through the 1980s, typing was actually a full-time class in some junior high schools. (Today that sounds as likely as a class on how to make yourself a sandwich.) To a large extent I think typing is now something kids "just pick up."

You've also reminded me of how much I hated learning cursive. As soon as the portion of the second (first? third?) grade devoted to teaching cursive was done, I just stopped doing it for my schoolwork and to my surprise the teacher never bothered me about it again. Learning cursive seems to be as demanding as learning the basics of piano but without the payoff of some real enlightenment.

[tp4tissue]

In public school they don't teach kids cursive anymore here in central Virginia. I sucked at cursive but at least i can read it.

In public school they don't teach kids typing anymore here in central Virginia. I learned how to type in elementary school, "Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing" on a Apple IIGS FTW. It could be an elective though but its not required.

In some parts of Virginia they are giving elementary kids iPads and going pencil-less which is absurd

Schools encourage the hunt and peck method of typing these days, they don't even go over why there are bumps on F and J i bet.

The proper use of a keyboard is dying. I've even heard from friends that police/911 dispatchers are hard to hire in this area because the job requires you type over 80WPM (maybe faster).

long live touch typers

Mmmm....  I don't think you need to worry about touch typing in the future..

Assuming NASA is ontop of the CME events,  computers are everywhere, and kids will be exposed left and right.. 

they'll probably just pick up touch typing naturally.

[vivalarevolución]

We learned typing in elementary and middle school.  This was the 1990's.  By the time I was in sixth grade, i was probably going at 60 words per minute.

I don't know they do these days, but that all worked for me.