Trump is encouraging foreign powers to attack the US' closest allies

[chyros]

So from a European perspective this is a very strange and extremely damaging statement. Strange, as he makes it sound like a sort of membership fee, while in truth it's a domestic investment, but also a very hypocritical one as the US doesn't meet many of these target "bills" itself. There's really no country that makes all its targets in all agreements, so if one wanted, one could always find SOME argument to disband this agreement on. But most of all, this completely annihilates the whole security of NATO, as the founding principle that if one member state is attacked, all members unquestioningly respond, is now obviously moot, so this voids any deterring capability NATO has. It's more obvious than ever now that he is in Putin's pocket, who is the one clear winner in this situation.

It also seems like a bad move for the US itself. It's become clear that Europe can't necessarily count on US military support, which makes a military alliance with the US worthless. Effectively this makes the US lose its most important military ally. Why would countries still allow all these American army bases, launch installations, etc. on their soil if they're not gonna help out anyway? This just seems like such a baffling move on my part.

I was really curious to see some other people's perspective on this! Talk, talk, talk.

[fohat.digs]

Simple.
Trump is completely insane.

And is almost surely indebted to Putin for compromat.

[tp4tissue]

The problem here isn't politics.

It's DESIRE.

Wars are not fought for what we NEED,  Wars are fought over EXCESS, be it power or material.

We have all that we need, even with 1900s technology, it should be a utopia. 

But because our sense of the world is hijacked by the desire for Super Normal Stimuli, mansions/drugs/prostitutes,  the carrier capacity of the ecosystem is being burned out.

What did all of our KINGs really have, above everyone else,  A big house, drugs (alcohol), and prostitutes (harems).

Technology is a lever, and when we Only-Ever use it to Concentrate / Produce, sensory pleasure. The results are the same every time, a collapsing society.

[chyros]

The problem here isn't politics.

It's DESIRE.

Wars are not fought for what we NEED,  Wars are fought over EXCESS, be it power or material.

We have all that we need, even with 1900s technology, it should be a utopia. 

But because our sense of the world is hijacked by the desire for Super Normal Stimuli, mansions/drugs/prostitutes,  the carrier capacity of the ecosystem is being burned out.

What did all of our KINGs really have, above everyone else,  A big house, drugs (alcohol), and prostitutes (harems).

Eh ok, but what is the consequence of that in relation to this situation?

[tp4tissue]

Eh ok, but what is the consequence of that in relation to this situation?

The politicians are just people, their constituents are just people.  The core narrative in our modern group think is to maximize sensory pleasure.

The imbalance and distortion to human behavior is then the natural consequence. It's NOT simply the fault of political system / ideology / singular personalities.

What we have here is a collective personality black hole.  The desire for excess OF ALL humans created these situations.

[fohat.digs]

What we have here is a collective personality black hole.

This I can agree with somewhat. Drumpf has somehow tapped into a profoundly dysfunctional subset of the American population who, let's face it, just don't like or respect themselves.

Somehow, they have transmuted their dissatisfaction with life into identification with a champion  https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

[tp4tissue]

What we have here is a collective personality black hole.

This I can agree with somewhat. Drumpf has somehow tapped into a profoundly dysfunctional subset of the American population who, let's face it, just don't like or respect themselves.

Somehow, they have transmuted their dissatisfaction with life into identification with a champion  https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

Yes, some are more lost than others,  but Tp4 wants to emphasize, it's not just them, the entirety of the first world lives in a wasteful/unsustainable manner.

[marksen]

Eh ok, but what is the consequence of that in relation to this situation?

It's absolving the extremist right winger by making it your/everybody's fault.

As someone with a similar geoperspective view to yours (I live about 2 cities south of you, I think) it's bemusing to watch an entire nation regressing to toddler logic. Distressing too.

[fohat.digs]

"We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result. There is no way for a citizen of a republic to abdicate his responsibilities. As a nation we have come into our full inheritance at a tender age. We proclaim ourselves, as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom, wherever it continues to exist in the world, but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
The actions of the junior Senator from Wisconsin (Joseph McCarthy) have caused alarm and dismay amongst our allies abroad and given considerable comfort to our enemies. And whose fault is that? Not really his. He didn’t create this situation of fear; he merely exploited it – and rather successfully. Cassius was right.
“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.”
- Edward R Murrow 1954

[Surefoot]

So from a European perspective this is a very strange and extremely damaging statement.

More or less the same almost every day since about 2015 with the bloated orange turd.
FWIW he's actually put the European defense project back on rails as foreign ministers just met to talk about the situation. If we can detach ourselves completely from an unreliable partner, and become another force to contend with, especially with growing tensions with China (vs Taiwan), it's a good thing in the larger picture.
Did he push the world closer to WW3 ? I think not as no one takes that idiot seriously. Russia and China (and in some ways, Israel and Hamas) are working on that and are doing quite well by themselves I should say.
In the greater scope of things he's just repeated something he's said before, and is 100% what everyone expects of him if he gets elected. Everyone knows he wants to become a dictator, he's said so himself, his base is A-OK with this, the social networks and right wing media promote this idea more or less directly, so we have to accept this eventuality. What's a bit worrying though is he'll get the nuclear launch codes too. Certainly too clumsy to operate the system but he'll coerce his aides into doing it for him, or maybe a guest from Mar-a-Lago, as he's shown before this is information he can exchange against money.

[fohat.digs]

More or less the same almost every day since about 2015 with the bloated orange turd.

Article VI of the Constitution states:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States .... and all Treaties made" are the "Supreme Law of the Land."

Trump is not just saying that he will break treaty obligations to U.S. allies and hand them over to Russia, he is flat-out saying that he will break the law. Because treaties are law. Failure to abide by the obligations of Article 6 would be the gravest possible betrayal of our allies and a direct failure to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

[tp4tissue]

break treaty obligations to U.S. allies and hand them over to Russia

Pu7in is a tyrant, this much is true, but no less tyrannical than US-politicians/ politics. The US has oppressed and killed far more people and ruined far more countries than evil-Pu7in.

Iraq alone, they are now living with generational birth defects due to our use of DU ammunition. We killed millions of innocent civilians.  Remember, there were no WMDs. We butchered that nation over nothing, and no evidence.

As for Ukra1n,  The entirety of the US interest in the matter is to HURT Russia, this is currently operating to the extent that our invested prestige compels Ukra1n to fight to the last Ukra1nian.

Our involvement is fundamentally amoral. What banner people walk under is quite unimportant. Being alive is important. Dragging this out, has no discernible result difference as killing the Ukra1nians ourselves. It is impossible for Ukra1n to defeat Russia, the reverse is not true.


The USA can not defeat Russia,  in the same way as the USA can not defeat INDIA. Why Not,  Any large nation with Ultimate weapons (Nu(lear) is undefeatable.

Militarily, we need to acknowledge fundamental spheres of influence. It's not so simply about borders.

[fohat.digs]

there were no WMDs. We butchered that nation over nothing, and no evidence.

Bush Jr, who never should have been given the presidency in the first place, was responsible for that atrocity. Most of the US population (and practically no one except for Republicans) did not favor it at all.

The entirety of the US interest in the matter is to HURT Russia

I disagree with this, absolutely. Well, at least as it is only to "hurt" Russia insomuch as required to protect other countries against Russian invasion. We even let Crimea slide with only sanctions to try to avoid confrontation.

Putin *was* the richest man in the world. Why he didn't simply retire to a tropical island instead of throwing it all away is a subject for the psychiatrists.

[noisyturtle]

doing as much damage as they can squeeze out of him before his spotlight runs dry

[Surefoot]

Trump is not just saying that he will break treaty obligations to U.S. allies and hand them over to Russia, he is flat-out saying that he will break the law. Because treaties are law. Failure to abide by the obligations of Article 6 would be the gravest possible betrayal of our allies and a direct failure to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

Look, he's already used the Constitution as toilet paper, and his cronies did too, and the Supreme Court are making a joke of it. Remember when he commited high treason by selling nuclear secrets to his Mar a Lago guests ? Remember when he commited high treason by trying to strike a deal with Ukraine ? Or when he sent his MAGA troops to assault the capitol, and try and throw down the election process ? Or I could list quite a few more examples. The GOP and Trump really do not care about the Constitution, as they have proven over and over again. The only thing that counts for them is misreading the 2nd amendment. Even the 1st is kind of annoying to them, e.g. in Florida where government trampled that amendment and shat all over it.

He can even go to jail and be elected from his prison cell: his cult followers will only see a martyr.

So yeah he, and the GOP, are definitely going to shred these treaties and use them to throw confetti all over Orange Man's dictator parade.

[fohat.digs]

Why?

[Surefoot]

"Asteroid defense", i'll keep that, reminds me of the Chewbacca defense from South Park

[Leslieann]

Why?

"Don't Look Up" was one of the best yet most annoying to movies to watch because it hit the nail so perfectly on the head.

[iri]

Did he push the world closer to WW3 ? I think not as no one takes that idiot seriously. (...) China (...) are working on that and are doing quite well by themselves I should say.

My favourite take in the thread so far.

[mohawk1367]

Why?

0wN da libz!!!

[Findecanor]

Vladimir Putin is not a leader who says anything in public before thinking.
Yesterday, Putin exclaimed that he prefers Biden over Trump because Biden is more "experienced and predictable".

That is another way of saying that he considers Trump to be both incompetent and dangerous.

Quite a significant turn, after Putin had used Prigozhin's troll farms to help get Trump elected, and to destabilise the US political system. After Prigozhin's death, the troll farm is dissolved (as far as anyone knows), and apparently there is a risk of US politics becoming too unstable for Putin.

[tp4tissue]

Vladimir Putin is not a leader who says anything in public before thinking.
Yesterday, Putin exclaimed that he prefers Biden over Trump because Biden is more "experienced and predictable".

That is another way of saying that he considers Trump to be both incompetent and dangerous.

Quite a significant turn, after Putin had used Prigozhin's troll farms to help get Trump elected, and to destabilise the US political system. After Prigozhin's death, the troll farm is dissolved (as far as anyone knows), and apparently there is a risk of US politics becoming too unstable for Putin.

That may fall under very fringe speculation.  We can't possibly define the criteria which composites a needle one way or the other.

[Findecanor]

--- why do I even bother ...  *sigh* ---

[tp4tissue]

That may fall under very fringe speculation.

What exactly?

• Russian interference: Confirmed. It is in the link RIGHT THERE
• Putin dropping Trump: Not a question of speculation but of interpretation. RIGHT THERE
• The troll farm being dissolved. Yes, but I said so, RIGHT THERE

-Russian interference, in every election ever, then and now, has never changed.
-Dropping Trump, interpretation open to fault IS speculation
-Troll farms being dissolved, Maybe, what confirms this for normal people like us who read the indexed web? Even if we went on Tor, it's even harder to validate information.

[fohat.digs]

Yesterday, Putin exclaimed that he prefers Biden over Trump because Biden is more "experienced and predictable".

That is absolutely astonishing, but I am very very very glad to hear it.

Considering the "sunk cost" of the resources that he has invested in Drumpf over the years, and the fact that a Republican president would not push back in Ukraine, it must be a bitter pill for Putin to swallow to have to abandon his useful idiot.

But maybe he decided that he had already wrung all the value out of the relationship that he could get.

Or maybe the very stability of the world itself supercedes the selfish interests of any one person or country. That is why I cannot comprehend why, as the planet is literally burning up underneath us, that all these petty fights have sprung up all over the world at precisely the time that we need to co-operate on whatever paltry repairs we can still make.

[iri]

Looks like someone missed the propaganda message about what one should think about Putin's words

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68303231

[fohat.digs]

"Imagine Vladimir Putin had said publicly that he'd prefer a Trump presidency. What a gift for the Biden campaign.

Donald Trump's political enemies would have pounced on such an endorsement and accused the former US president of colluding with the Kremlin, of having ties to Russia two years after Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Hardly a vote-winner for the Republicans.

Still, if Donald Trump does become the Republican Party's official nominee for the 2024 presidential election, he won't escape questions about Putin and Russia.
 
Only now, Team Trump can point to these Kremlin comments about Biden and use them to deflect the inevitable accusations that Mr Trump is the Kremlin's choice."


Personally, I see Drumpf's chances of winning as near-zero. And everyone knows what the Mueller Report proved about Russian election interference.

In any case, if he actually were to win it would still be a bonanza for Putin regardless of yesterday's pronouncement. And it never hurts to cozy up to the President.

[chyros]

And everyone knows what the Mueller Report proved about Russian election interference.

Does that actually matter, though? Does any of it matter? Even now that he's found guilty of fraud and fined millions of dollars, do his supporters actually care about any of that? Genuine question btw.

[fohat.digs]

do his supporters actually care about any of that?

No, his supporters do not care about anything that he does.

They essentially see him as a champion that will save them from whatever they hate and fear. He is a con artist and they are easy marks.

I saw an interview with a coal miner after one of his "rallies" in coal country where he promised "to bring back coal in a big way"
The interviewer asked the man, "Honestly, do you think he can really do that?" His answer? "Probably not, but at least he hears us."

As a con artist, his skill is guessing what people want to hear and telling them precisely that, regardless of whether it is even possible, and certainly without any moral qualms about his intention of doing anything about it, or even trying.

An honest man would have said "Coal is rapidly on the way out, but I want to help you find another occupation." and sincerely meant it. To which an obstinate coal miner might reply "I don't want another occupation, I want to mine coal" and walk away grumbling about how that man "didn't hear him" ....

How do you work with people who are irrational?