Realforce still popular?

[tehsprayer]

Bought my Realforce 87u many years ago and still working as good as day one.

Wanted to know if Realforce/topre keyboards are still common for enthusiasts? haven't been keeping up to date!

[tp4tissue]

The cult is alive..

But,  again..  HYPE.....

[SBJ]

Tp is just salty this isn't a thread about ergo-dox.

Topre is still very popular.

[tp4tissue]

Tp is just salty this isn't a thread about ergo-dox.

Topre is still very popular.

It's not salt..   


Integral to the Tp4 Doctrine, is Integrity and Objectivity..


The --majority-- of topre owners on the forum relinquish such ideals when joining the cult.



But it's not all bad news,   Many wiser topre owners with engineering backgrounds see through the fascade.. 


It is what it is , is what it is, as it should be.


magical unicorn - not found

[Puddsy]

realforce boards are more popular than ever

[zslane]

RealForce boards remain the gold standard for contemporary tactile keyboards. And since there is now a model that can take MX-stemmed keycaps, there are no reasons left to avoid getting one, apart from price. The only people who dislike them are those who resent the fact that they can't afford them, and those who hate cheap rubber dome keyboards (as they should) and are incapable of understanding how Topre differs from them.

[avid]

I love realforce. Great keyboards!

[tp4tissue]

RealForce boards remain the gold standard for contemporary tactile keyboards. And since there is now a model that can take MX-stemmed keycaps, there are no reasons left to avoid getting one, apart from price. The only people who dislike them are those who resent the fact that they can't afford them, and those who hate cheap rubber dome keyboards (as they should) and are incapable of understanding how Topre differs from them.

Straight up Topre Fud..

hahahahhaa


Topre is rubber dome,  the slider is a bit better designed but through and through there are mostly disadvantages.


The domes do not wear uniformly , and there are no replacement parts.

The resistance also alters greatly with the temperature gradient, which produce inconsistent feedback..

The sensation of the domes also trigger bad typing habits some people retained from standard full travel dome keyboards leading to greater probability of RSI.

___  This aspect is avoided on Cherry style switches, because they're mostly linear, automatically fully retraining the typist for proper technique




All zslane has is unfounded speculation. He has no understand of the Utility case for typing or the mechanical shortcomings behind the Topre Fallacy.

[tp4tissue]

RealForce boards remain the gold standard for contemporary tactile keyboards. And since there is now a model that can take MX-stemmed keycaps, there are no reasons left to avoid getting one, apart from price. The only people who dislike them are those who resent the fact that they can't afford them, and those who hate cheap rubber dome keyboards (as they should) and are incapable of understanding how Topre differs from them.

Take his argument for example..

The ONLY  people..  who's that,  has he met most people ?


Can and can't afford ?   Right, maybe kids don't have $300,     but any adult or even college student in this hobby can put $300 together.  Cost has little bearing on the user experience, or purchase decision.



Gold standard,  to whom ?


Where is this great unified keyboard ranking system to which standards are determined.. ?




If -zslane- is appointing himself as the Average Topre user,  then it's only too clear where these abominations belong..   emo children who huddle around cold causes..

[xtrafrood]

Seems to be a bit easier to obtain the rare Topre colorways as well

[yuppie]

RealForce is still very relevant. Great boards.

[Polymer]

The sensation of the domes also trigger bad typing habits some people retained from standard full travel dome keyboards leading to greater probability of RSI.

___  This aspect is avoided on Cherry style switches, because they're mostly linear, automatically fully retraining the typist for proper technique

Cherry doesn't keep you from bottoming out...not at all...in fact most typists at any reasonable speed are going to bottom out, hopefully lightly...

Variable Topre is fantastic to help you avoid RSI...You can also go with lighter domes although I think a lot of the enjoyment is lost when you do that..

And while I agree original replacement parts are not easily obtained...You can get Topre-like Rubber domes now from a 3rd party..and of course there are mx/Topre sliders that are easy to come by.  PCB, not so much but that shouldn't be wearing out at all...

[tp4tissue]

The sensation of the domes also trigger bad typing habits some people retained from standard full travel dome keyboards leading to greater probability of RSI.

___  This aspect is avoided on Cherry style switches, because they're mostly linear, automatically fully retraining the typist for proper technique

Cherry doesn't keep you from bottoming out...not at all...in fact most typists at any reasonable speed are going to bottom out, hopefully lightly...

Variable Topre is fantastic to help you avoid RSI...You can also go with lighter domes although I think a lot of the enjoyment is lost when you do that..

And while I agree original replacement parts are not easily obtained...You can get Topre-like Rubber domes now from a 3rd party..and of course there are mx/Topre sliders that are easy to come by.  PCB, not so much but that shouldn't be wearing out at all...

Hahahahaha.. 


Bottoming out has nothing to do with it.



The reason why full travel membrane boards create bad habit is because the actuation is at the very bottom.


In most cases, as you learn to use computers, people will come across membrane keyboards which are a little bit worn out.

Some of the keys will require pressing very hard or holding the key.


This is the precise instance where people develop bad typing habit,  Pressing hard, and holding.





The feel of topre being almost identical to dome boards is what continues this bad habit for many people.



Cherry mx on the other hand,   it feels very different from membrane boards..  This new sensation coupled with the fact that the user now knows the key will actuate at 2mm regardless of how hard they press or hold,   THIS fundamentally creates a natural situation for retraining.




The Topre does not cause RSI,   but it has a high probability of Continuing a person's computer RSI symptoms.

[Polymer]

The sensation of the domes also trigger bad typing habits some people retained from standard full travel dome keyboards leading to greater probability of RSI.

___  This aspect is avoided on Cherry style switches, because they're mostly linear, automatically fully retraining the typist for proper technique

Cherry doesn't keep you from bottoming out...not at all...in fact most typists at any reasonable speed are going to bottom out, hopefully lightly...

Variable Topre is fantastic to help you avoid RSI...You can also go with lighter domes although I think a lot of the enjoyment is lost when you do that..

And while I agree original replacement parts are not easily obtained...You can get Topre-like Rubber domes now from a 3rd party..and of course there are mx/Topre sliders that are easy to come by.  PCB, not so much but that shouldn't be wearing out at all...

Hahahahaha.. 


Bottoming out has nothing to do with it.



The reason why full travel membrane boards create bad habit is because the actuation is at the very bottom.


In most cases, as you learn to use computers, people will come across membrane keyboards which are a little bit worn out.

Some of the keys will require pressing very hard or holding the key.

This is the precise instance where people develop bad typing habit,  Pressing hard, and holding.

The feel of topre being almost identical to dome boards is what continues this bad habit for many people.


Cherry mx on the other hand,   it feels very different from membrane boards..  This new sensation coupled with the fact that the user now knows the key will actuate at 2mm regardless of how hard they press or hold,   THIS fundamentally creates a natural situation for retraining.

The Topre does not cause RSI,   but it has a high probability of Continuing a person's computer RSI symptoms.

Your example is incredibly flawed...since Topre doesn't require you to bottom out why wouldn't a person learn to use it differently just as they would Cherry?  Because the feel is similar?  And for those people that use both?   You're assuming quite a bit of the people using it but like many things you have flawed assumptions.

[zslane]

Please don't feed the troll. It's not worth it, Polymer.

I've been typing ~90 wpm since 1981, on all kinds of keyboards with every switch imaginable, and none of them have induced bad habits, RSI, or inefficiencies that rise above statistical margin of error. The reason Topre is (still) so popular is because it feels (and sounds) great to type on. Apart from price, all other considerations are so inconsequential as to not be worth mentioning.

[Polymer]

But he's my favorite...

Its like having your favorite garden gnome if you were sad enough to have garden gnomes..

You have to make sure you feed them carefully so they don't leave...but then slap them back into place when they get a bit out of hand..

[tp4tissue]

Your example is incredibly flawed...since Topre doesn't require you to bottom out why wouldn't a person learn to use it differently just as they would Cherry?  Because the feel is similar?  And for those people that use both?   You're assuming quite a bit of the people using it but like many things you have flawed assumptions.

Good technique can be achieved on both keyboard,  but my point is it is more likely and natural a shift on cherry mx,  because the large difference in feel is a better trigger for retraining.


Topre feels exactly like rubber membrane that people often learn to press hard and hold keys on.

Unless they are aware that they have bad technique and need retraining, most likely, they will just continue using poor form.

[tp4tissue]

I've been typing ~90 wpm since 1981, on all kinds of keyboards with every switch imaginable, and none of them have induced bad habits, RSI, or inefficiencies that rise above statistical margin of error. The reason Topre is (still) so popular is because it feels (and sounds) great to type on. Apart from price, all other considerations are so inconsequential as to not be worth mentioning.

Again, here is zslane, 

-- doesn't know anything about keyboards

-- none of his comments considers the engineering.

-- types slowly since 1981,   that's 30 years,  and this guy hasn't gotten any better at typing.


What does that all mean,   he's a ludite with no notion of self improvement, telling people how great the stuff he's just bought is.


That's all he's got.  look at me, i spent money on x,   x is great because i spent money on it.


hahahahaha..

[Polymer]

Your example is incredibly flawed...since Topre doesn't require you to bottom out why wouldn't a person learn to use it differently just as they would Cherry?  Because the feel is similar?  And for those people that use both?   You're assuming quite a bit of the people using it but like many things you have flawed assumptions.

Good technique can be achieved on both keyboard,  but my point is it is more likely and natural a shift on cherry mx,  because the large difference in feel is a better trigger for retraining.


Topre feels exactly like rubber membrane that people often learn to press hard and hold keys on.

Unless they are aware that they have bad technique and need retraining, most likely, they will just continue using poor form.

Cherry has no such natural shift...  Take a non-keyboard hobby person for example...you see Cherry keyboards out there in the wild...the people using them are bottoming out, hard...the same as they would with any other keyboard...

I do think that if you wanted to learn how to type without bottoming out as hard, it would be easier to do with Cherry because it doesn't force you to bottom out...but you'd have to want to learn to do that...

[Rayoui]

I am not an engineer and care very little about the engineering that goes into designing a keyboard or switch.

What I do care about is that when I press down a key, it makes good feelies. If I get good feelies, I like that keyboard.

That's really all that matters.

[fanpeople]

I press down a key, it makes good feelies. If I get good feelies, I like that keyboard.

Pretty much some philosophical gold standard right here. You can't argue with that.

[zslane]

I am not an engineer and care very little about the engineering that goes into designing a keyboard or switch.

What I do care about is that when I press down a key, it makes good feelies. If I get good feelies, I like that keyboard.

That's really all that matters.

Win. 

Sure, the engineering comes into play in terms of durability and reliability, but even that is completely secondary to how the keyboard feels to type on.

[tp4tissue]

I am not an engineer and care very little about the engineering that goes into designing a keyboard or switch.

What I do care about is that when I press down a key, it makes good feelies. If I get good feelies, I like that keyboard.

That's really all that matters.

Win. 

Sure, the engineering comes into play in terms of durability and reliability, but even that is completely secondary to how the keyboard feels to type on.

Classic Topre users..

Bad engineering... lalalalalalala.. can't hear you... lalalalalalalalala..


Don't know anything about keyboards,  spends $300,  lalalalalalalalala... right decision... based on nothing... lalalalalalalallalaa

Hahahahahahahaha

[dgneo]

Bought my Realforce 87u many years ago and still working as good as day one.

Wanted to know if Realforce/topre keyboards are still common for enthusiasts? haven't been keeping up to date!

Absolutely, 55g 86u is used daily at home. Easily my favorite board 

[romevi]

Yes. 55g is the best board out of the box.

[Polymer]

Classic Topre users..

Bad engineering... lalalalalalala.. can't hear you... lalalalalalalalala..


Don't know anything about keyboards,  spends $300,  lalalalalalalalala... right decision... based on nothing... lalalalalalalallalaa

Bad engineering?  How often do you hear about reliability issues with Topre?  That's right..you don't...

Cherry?  All the time...It is just the nature of how they're built.  Cherry relies on being stitched together...contact points that wear..plastic that wears..metal that wears...

There are certain advantages to Cherry...but from an engineering standpoint, they're not well designed...

[schoolbus]

And since there is now a model that can take MX-stemmed keycaps, there are no reasons left to avoid getting one, apart from price.

Not so fast Zslane, as you are certainly aware Topre only makes the MX-compatible Realforce in the inferior "Fullsize" layout (and it requires hyperspheres to not be a rattly mess, which you have yourself admitted on other posts) so clearly their engineering isn't what it used to be. We'll disregard the Novatouch since it's obviously discontinued among other "reasons."

So your business case is rather misleading for reasons I can only imagine are propagandist in nature.

people who dislike them are those who resent the fact that they can't afford them

Speaking of "don't feed the trolls"

[SneakyRobb]

Hi,

I want the equivalent of a matias full size in topre.

Full numpad and such. In terms of "Topre" what is the most normal. Least hype, least colourful. Most utilitarian topre board one can get?

Thanks

[zslane]

The Topre 104U.

[tp4tissue]

Hi,

I want the equivalent of a matias full size in topre.

Full numpad and such. In terms of "Topre" what is the most normal. Least hype, least colourful. Most utilitarian topre board one can get?

Thanks

The only topre board worth getting is the MuTron (uTron)..

Every other topre keyboard is just like every other keyboard, they hurt your wrist during prolonged use,  and there are no redeeming qualities to them besides the familiar ubiquity.

[jcoffin1981]

It seems Tp4 is quite the hater when it comes to Topre.  I've always been a "try every keyboard until I find one that I like" person.  I've hand no problem doing this in the 100 to 150$ range.  Topre has been a little cost prohibitive in applying that philosophy.  I use my Leopold 90% of the time and occasionally cycle in others.  I've always wanted to try a Topre, say Realforce or HHKB, but when looking at video I hate the sound as I thought they were nearly silent. 

I still want to try it and be a hater myself, or maybe I will become one of those crazy fanatics.

[tp4tissue]

It seems Tp4 is quite the hater when it comes to Topre.  I've always been a "try every keyboard until I find one that I like" person.  I've hand no problem doing this in the 100 to 150$ range.  Topre has been a little cost prohibitive in applying that philosophy.  I use my Leopold 90% of the time and occasionally cycle in others.  I've always wanted to try a Topre, say Realforce or HHKB, but when looking at video I hate the sound as I thought they were nearly silent. 

I still want to try it and be a hater myself, or maybe I will become one of those crazy fanatics.

Tp4 does not h8 Topre..


But when a --fanatic-- does come in,  baseless and without merit, heralds the greatness of Topre, 

That has to stop..

[typo]

I like custom Cherry switches better. Mine are about 120g. Not kidding. The RGB is not the same quality as a regular RealForce. I do like REalForce fine just not my personal top choice because it is not nearly that heavy. However, HHKB which I have Two of I do not get. The thing is a pain in the tushy. Press Fn+Num for function keys, No arrows , No Num pad. The JP is better but than the spacebar is too small for me. Well, the whole board is just too small and lite for me. I mean they keys actuation force. In that case I would prefer a RealForce 104UB.  Which I also have Two specimens. It is certainly a fine quality board if you like the switch feel. Most people go GaGa over it but I prefer a considerably higher force switch which has to be custom made. There is no way to increase the actuation force of the Topre switches that I know of. I would still say by most accounts it is still the gold standard. However, The RGB is not. That is not just my opinion either. anyways, the 87U and 104U are fine keyboards in their own right.

[schoolbus]

The Topre Realforce 104U.

FTFY!!

[hayt]

Yessir. Got my 55g 87u last week and basically instantly fallen in love with it . In fact I'm selling my FC980C to get a second one

Speaking of which, I need to update my signature -_-


Edit* not to mention the Norbauer RF corian / aluminum case that will one day come out, hopefully!!!

[zslane]

The RGB is not the same quality as a regular RealForce.

This is very true. However, it is the only keyboard of its kind, and I find I'm willing to compromise build quality in order to get the layout and MX-compatibility that it offers. I could do without the RGB backlighting or the variable actuation (I don't use either), but both of those are pretty easy to just ignore. I'd love to put one in something like a Norbauer aluminum case, but he is reluctant to try and make one, so I am stuck with the lower quality stock case it comes in. Nevertheless, my RealForce RGB "Space Cadet" is my favorite keyboard, and the closest thing I have to an end-game board.

[quasistellar]

Hi,

I want the equivalent of a matias full size in topre.

Full numpad and such. In terms of "Topre" what is the most normal. Least hype, least colourful. Most utilitarian topre board one can get?

Thanks

The Topre 104U.

Or get the Realforce RGB and just don't turn the lights on.  Without the lights it's just a black keyboard that you probably couldn't pick out of a crowd.  Even less distinct, even, than a 104u, because it doesn't have the large extra space on top.

[jcoffin1981]

The sensation of the domes also trigger bad typing habits some people retained from standard full travel dome keyboards leading to greater probability of RSI.

___  This aspect is avoided on Cherry style switches, because they're mostly linear, automatically fully retraining the typist for proper technique

Cherry doesn't keep you from bottoming out...not at all...in fact most typists at any reasonable speed are going to bottom out, hopefully lightly...

Variable Topre is fantastic to help you avoid RSI...You can also go with lighter domes although I think a lot of the enjoyment is lost when you do that..

And while I agree original replacement parts are not easily obtained...You can get Topre-like Rubber domes now from a 3rd party..and of course there are mx/Topre sliders that are easy to come by.  PCB, not so much but that shouldn't be wearing out at all...

Hahahahaha.. 


Bottoming out has nothing to do with it.



The reason why full travel membrane boards create bad habit is because the actuation is at the very bottom.


In most cases, as you learn to use computers, people will come across membrane keyboards which are a little bit worn out.

Some of the keys will require pressing very hard or holding the key.


This is the precise instance where people develop bad typing habit,  Pressing hard, and holding.





The feel of topre being almost identical to dome boards is what continues this bad habit for many people.



Cherry mx on the other hand,   it feels very different from membrane boards..  This new sensation coupled with the fact that the user now knows the key will actuate at 2mm regardless of how hard they press or hold,   THIS fundamentally creates a natural situation for retraining.




The Topre does not cause RSI,   but it has a high probability of Continuing a person's computer RSI symptoms.

I like tactility (I still have Blackberry Bold and refuse to get an Iphone).  As far as "keebs" go I hate bottoming out.  I find that when it takes a lot of force to push through the tactile bump it's hard to stop before bottoming out.  This is why I keep going back to Cherry Browns even though many call them "dirty reds" and they prefer Gateron. I find Gateron difficult to not bottom out.  I am going to lube the switches on all by boards and want to experiment with slightly heavier springs, but don't know what to choose.

[tp4tissue]

Hahahahaha.. 


Bottoming out has nothing to do with it.



The reason why full travel membrane boards create bad habit is because the actuation is at the very bottom.


In most cases, as you learn to use computers, people will come across membrane keyboards which are a little bit worn out.

Some of the keys will require pressing very hard or holding the key.


This is the precise instance where people develop bad typing habit,  Pressing hard, and holding.





The feel of topre being almost identical to dome boards is what continues this bad habit for many people.



Cherry mx on the other hand,   it feels very different from membrane boards..  This new sensation coupled with the fact that the user now knows the key will actuate at 2mm regardless of how hard they press or hold,   THIS fundamentally creates a natural situation for retraining.




The Topre does not cause RSI,   but it has a high probability of Continuing a person's computer RSI symptoms.

I like tactility (I still have Blackberry Bold and refuse to get an Iphone).  As far as "keebs" go I hate bottoming out.  I find that when it takes a lot of force to push through the tactile bump it's hard to stop before bottoming out.  This is why I keep going back to Cherry Browns even though many call them "dirty reds" and they prefer Gateron. I find Gateron difficult to not bottom out.  I am going to lube the switches on all by boards and want to experiment with slightly heavier springs, but don't know what to choose.

consciously not-bottoming-out would absolutely slow you down on a speed run,   but it wouldn't make much difference in the day to day, mundane keyboard wurk...



Standard full travel membrane reinforces bad typing habits which has high likelihood to transfer over through topre.

Topre itself is innocent .. hahaha..  but its other mechanical disadvantages are still glaring.

[kmba]

Yessir. Got my 55g 87u last week and basically instantly fallen in love with it . In fact I'm selling my FC980C to get a second one

Speaking of which, I need to update my signature -_-


Edit* not to mention the Norbauer RF corian / aluminum case that will one day come out, hopefully!!!

because you prefer the heavier domes, or something else?