Got bamboozled by mecha membrane

[Sintpinty]

I was at a club/team meaning earlier yesterday and there were a ton of membrane keyboards and cheap "gaming " mice.

I tried touching the arrow keys to cause the least harm, but it did have a tactile bump. I saw that it activated earlier , but then i felt a rubbery part.

I then slowly pressed down the switch, and when i fully bottomed out i felt some rubber.

It felt awful. I looked down at the keyboard's bottom and it said "devestator II". I looked that up online for what switches it used - mecha membrane.

Needless to say it felt awful.

[Findecanor]

I have not seen a membrane keyboard in years.
Keyboards with membranes as their actuation mechanism, yes -- but that's not the same thing.

I hate it when even the industry does not get terminology right. The things they sell are supposed to have been made by educated engineers who are supposed to know this stuff, who should tell the marketing people what things are and what words mean.

[depletedvespene]

I have not seen a membrane keyboard in years.
Keyboards with membranes as their actuation mechanism, yes -- but that's not the same thing.

I hate it when even the industry does not get terminology right. The things they sell are supposed to have been made by educated engineers who are supposed to know this stuff, who should tell the marketing people what things are and what words mean.

Sadly, many times engineers don't have any authority over the marketing subhumans, and if one dares to complain, he's shut down.

[Sintpinty]

I have not seen a membrane keyboard in years.
Keyboards with membranes as their actuation mechanism, yes -- but that's not the same thing.

I hate it when even the industry does not get terminology right. The things they sell are supposed to have been made by educated engineers who are supposed to know this stuff, who should tell the marketing people what things are and what words mean.

Its the mechanism that Cooler Master calls it..

rubbreh domeh bad

[Polymer]

Looks like it would be fairly decent.....You said it actuates before hitting bottom?  There doesn't seem to be an indication as to how..

They tried to make a more stable but smooth system..and it looks like bottoming out would be solid...all for what, 30 bucks?  It isn't a Topre but for 30 it isn't bad...

If it was 100...that would be bad...

[tp4tissue]

I have not seen a membrane keyboard in years.
Keyboards with membranes as their actuation mechanism, yes -- but that's not the same thing.

I hate it when even the industry does not get terminology right. The things they sell are supposed to have been made by educated engineers who are supposed to know this stuff, who should tell the marketing people what things are and what words mean.

To stand up for fellow engineers,  they ARE designed and made by educated engineers.

Yet they are Marketed and SOLD by liberal arts douche bags. robbing poor kids of their lunch money.

[Sintpinty]

I have not seen a membrane keyboard in years.
Keyboards with membranes as their actuation mechanism, yes -- but that's not the same thing.

I hate it when even the industry does not get terminology right. The things they sell are supposed to have been made by educated engineers who are supposed to know this stuff, who should tell the marketing people what things are and what words mean.

To stand up for fellow engineers,  they ARE designed and made by educated engineers.

Yet they are Marketed and SOLD by liberal arts douche bags. robbing poor kids of their lunch money.

Imagine mistaking Razer Cynosa for blackwidow...

[Altis]

I tried the arrow cluster of two "mecha membrane" Razer boards at a local store (the only keys that are accessible through a cutout in the box face).

I have to say, I really liked the way they felt but it's difficult to get a good impression from just a few keys, and not really typing. Also, one felt noticeably nicer than the other, which seemed strange.

I was hoping they would be good but have only read pretty negative things about them. It's a shame because they had a nice tactile hump and a crisp click, so I was disappointed to have not found much good on them.

[volatilecoffee]

I have not seen a membrane keyboard in years.
Keyboards with membranes as their actuation mechanism, yes -- but that's not the same thing.

I hate it when even the industry does not get terminology right. The things they sell are supposed to have been made by educated engineers who are supposed to know this stuff, who should tell the marketing people what things are and what words mean.

To stand up for fellow engineers,  they ARE designed and made by educated engineers.

Yet they are Marketed and SOLD by liberal arts douche bags. robbing poor kids of their lunch money.

Imagine mistaking Razer Cynosa for blackwidow...

imagine paying $99 for a membrane

[Pylon]

Imagine paying $250 for a rubber dome.

[Polymer]

Imagine paying $250 for a rubber dome.

Why? Then you're getting lovely Topre...

[Findecanor]

Imagine paying $250 for a rubber dome.

There's a Destiny-branded Razer Ornata that sells for that much ...

[saint_james]

rubbreh domeh bad

Nope.  Membrane contact-based actuation mechanism is bad.  Rubbreh Domeh in and of itself is not bad... it is simply the spring/resistance function of a switch, and adds tactility.  Topre is a well-executed rubbreh domeh with electro-capacitive actuation.

[frydaja]

I.. i like it.. the only issue i have with my Lite L is that it's full-size.. also some keys are more tactile than others. It gets a bit spongy on the bottom out, yes, but it's a very smooth, although a bit stiffer rubber dome. The exact opposite of this are NMB rubber domes, very tactile yet light, crispy bottom-out for a rubber dome.

I left a review on my Lite L here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99225.0

[mizzoperator]

Mecha-membrane keyboards are just a total scam.
I don't care what anybody says, a rubber dome keyboard with a clicker (and JUST a clicker) is not mechanical.
They also feel strange and barely tactile at all. The stiff rubber dome I'm using right now is probably more tactile.
Note that, yes, I know, the Razer Ornata is not the only mecha-membrane KB.
Don't lie to me. Every other mecha-membrane keyboard is pretty crap too. You know it.

[Sintpinty]

Imagine paying $250 for a rubber dome.

bruh

[Sintpinty]

Mecha-membrane keyboards are just a total scam.
I don't care what anybody says, a rubber dome keyboard with a clicker (and JUST a clicker) is not mechanical.
They also feel strange and barely tactile at all. The stiff rubber dome I'm using right now is probably more tactile.
Note that, yes, I know, the Razer Ornata is not the only mecha-membrane KB.
Don't lie to me. Every other mecha-membrane keyboard is pretty crap too. You know it.

Exactly....

[Polymer]

Mecha-membrane keyboards are just a total scam.
I don't care what anybody says, a rubber dome keyboard with a clicker (and JUST a clicker) is not mechanical.
They also feel strange and barely tactile at all. The stiff rubber dome I'm using right now is probably more tactile.
Note that, yes, I know, the Razer Ornata is not the only mecha-membrane KB.
Don't lie to me. Every other mecha-membrane keyboard is pretty crap too. You know it.

And what do you think of Topre?

[mizzoperator]

And what do you think of Topre?

That's a different beast entirely.
Personally, I think Topre is okay, but the price is inflated so high that it's also borderline a scam.
It's literally just a rubber dome with a steel plate and a spring. The production cost can't be high enough to justify the insane price tags to most Topre boards.

[Polymer]

And what do you think of Topre?

That's a different beast entirely.
Personally, I think Topre is okay, but the price is inflated so high that it's also borderline a scam.
It's literally just a rubber dome with a steel plate and a spring. The production cost can't be high enough to justify the insane price tags to most Topre boards.

It isn't just a rubber dome with a steel plate and a spring.  I'm going to guess you've never actually used it right?

First off, the spring doesn't have anything to do with pressing of the key..it is super light and is the mechanism that actuates the switch.  There's also the slider which is really key as it has to do with the stability and smoothness of the switch itself.  And then the steel plate which doesn't even exist in all versions of Topre..it doesn't need a steel plate. 

How is the price high?  It comes with high quality PBT Dye Subs...which have long been one of the best stock keycaps you can get on any keyboard...the reliability and quality of the boards themselves are quite high.

You can get a Type Heaven for not much more than a comparable MX keyboard....so all up you're spending a bit more for a better board with better keycaps.

The main downside to Topre is the lack of keycaps..and while using a Novatouch type slider is a decent alternative, they don't feel/sound the same...although I'd say with silencing and a bit of care, you can get pretty close..

[mizzoperator]

It isn't just a rubber dome with a steel plate and a spring.  I'm going to guess you've never actually used it right?

First off, the spring doesn't have anything to do with pressing of the key..it is super light and is the mechanism that actuates the switch.  There's also the slider which is really key as it has to do with the stability and smoothness of the switch itself.  And then the steel plate which doesn't even exist in all versions of Topre..it doesn't need a steel plate. 

How is the price high?  It comes with high quality PBT Dye Subs...which have long been one of the best stock keycaps you can get on any keyboard...the reliability and quality of the boards themselves are quite high.

You can get a Type Heaven for not much more than a comparable MX keyboard....so all up you're spending a bit more for a better board with better keycaps.

The main downside to Topre is the lack of keycaps..and while using a Novatouch type slider is a decent alternative, they don't feel/sound the same...although I'd say with silencing and a bit of care, you can get pretty close..

I've angered the Topre Zealots and now they've come for me.
YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!

[yui]

rubbreh domeh bad

Nope.  Membrane contact-based actuation mechanism is bad.  Rubbreh Domeh in and of itself is not bad... it is simply the spring/resistance function of a switch, and adds tactility.  Topre is a well-executed rubbreh domeh with electro-capacitive actuation.

Membrane contact-based actuation is not even inherently bad look at the M and some of the older dome with slider boards using them, ok often there is better option (F, Topre) but those are not actually bad, cost cutting to make a 2$ rubbreh domeh is what give them their reputation and makes most of them bad.

[Polymer]

It isn't just a rubber dome with a steel plate and a spring.  I'm going to guess you've never actually used it right?

First off, the spring doesn't have anything to do with pressing of the key..it is super light and is the mechanism that actuates the switch.  There's also the slider which is really key as it has to do with the stability and smoothness of the switch itself.  And then the steel plate which doesn't even exist in all versions of Topre..it doesn't need a steel plate. 

How is the price high?  It comes with high quality PBT Dye Subs...which have long been one of the best stock keycaps you can get on any keyboard...the reliability and quality of the boards themselves are quite high.

You can get a Type Heaven for not much more than a comparable MX keyboard....so all up you're spending a bit more for a better board with better keycaps.

The main downside to Topre is the lack of keycaps..and while using a Novatouch type slider is a decent alternative, they don't feel/sound the same...although I'd say with silencing and a bit of care, you can get pretty close..

I've angered the Topre Zealots and now they've come for me.
YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!

I'm not angry at all...but the level of ignorance is funny....

But it wouldn't surprise me that 1-2 years later you'll end up with a Topre and fall off the board...

And I use both MX and Topre for different reasons...and don't have a single preference..in fact I've stated if I could only have one it would be MX...but it cracks me up to see people complain about Topre when they've probably never even used it...Jealous much?

[saint_james]

It isn't just a rubber dome with a steel plate and a spring... 

... Topre Zealots...

I'm not angry at all...but the level of ignorance is funny....

But it wouldn't surprise me that 1-2 years later you'll end up with a Topre and fall off the board...

And I use both MX and Topre for different reasons...and don't have a single preference..in fact I've stated if I could only have one it would be MX...but it cracks me up to see people complain about Topre when they've probably never even used it...Jealous much?

This resonates with me.  I would probably be considered one of the Topre zealots, but I also own and use MX boards... and have owned/used buckling springs, beam springs, and other switches in the past.  At a certain point keyboards are a functional commodity, and the enthusiasm one bears toward one type or another is based on individual and subjective criteria based on specific use cases. 

For example, I value keyfeel (tactility, absence of wobble, smoothness, etc.) and quiet operation to minimize auditory intrusion (office use, streaming, teleconferencing, etc.).  Beam springs, buckling springs, and most MX-compatible are too noisy (but "feel" awesome).  MX-compatible switches (with a few exceptions) do not provide the keyfeel that I like.  For my particular use case, both Topre and Zilents provide the experience that I want.  Sublime keyfeel and quiet operation.  Does that make me a Topre zealot?  A Zilent zealot perhaps?  Probably.

Once I found what I liked, I noticed that there wasn't a compelling reason for me to remain "engaged" on internet keyboard forums where people attack other people for differences of opinion and personal preferences.. thus I disappeared off of Geekhack (for several years).  I recently returned to see what had changed in the keyboard community.  Not much, apparently.  People still talk smack about things they have not personally experienced or stress tested IRL.  Lots of "opinions" rooted in someone trying a board for a few minutes at a meetup.  Very few people offering opinions of a three-month or year-long operational evaluation.  Whatever.  It's interesting being told by some keyboard hipster that his/her $800 billet aluminum custom with lubed/filmed holy-stotle-panda-blahblahblah is "endgame" and that I need to "get with it". 

Strangely, my low-noise FC660 got one upgrade (Hasu controller) and that was endgame enough for me.  It didn't require silencing (already silenced from the factory), keycap upgrades (already had premium dyesubbed PBT keycaps), or much of anything else.  I enjoy using it, and have generated hundreds of pages of work documents on it.  Endgame achieved for under $300.

I recently purchased a Compaq RT101 (NMB dome and slider) as a potential work board (perhaps to replace one of my Topre boards in that capacity).  As I understand it, this dome-and-slider is very similar to the "mem-chanical" system being villified in this thread.  Yet, if it works out, it is a $25 investment that may also "achieve endgame" for my particular use case.  Yet I read lots of people talking trash about "rubber dome" or "rubbreh domeh" being worthless yada yada yada.  I wonder how many people here actually use their keyboards for real productivity, or if many users view their keyboards as "functional art" or as the object of their fetishes independent of actual use.

Doesn't really matter at the end of the day.  People buy what they like, and they have to live with the consequences of their purchasing decisions.

***Edited to correct typos.***

[Mitchis]

A friend of mine just dropped 100E on the Razer Ornata.
I'm pretty sure their enginneers spent weeks trying to figure out how to NOT make it mech but still place that lil metal bar to make it click loud enough.
Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

[chyros]

Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

I'd say it's pretty far off from being quite THAT bad, but I agree that it's terrible even from a fundamental perspective xD .

[saint_james]

A friend of mine just dropped 100E on the Razer Ornata.
I'm pretty sure their enginneers spent weeks trying to figure out how to NOT make it mech but still place that lil metal bar to make it click loud enough.
Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

The Ornata seems like a terrible idea to me, personally.  And 100 Euro seems to be extremely poor value-for-money (laughable, really).  But someone, somewhere must like them, right? 

[Findecanor]

Nope.  Membrane contact-based actuation mechanism is bad.  Rubbreh Domeh in and of itself is not bad... it is simply the spring/resistance function of a switch, and adds tactility.  Topre is a well-executed rubbreh domeh with electro-capacitive actuation.

The difference between mushy rubber domes and Topre is that the former has a solid cylinder of rubber inside the dome that presses the membrane together to provide actuation.
On some of these keyboards, that cylinder is in an inner dome, so that there would be some post-actuation travel. The softness of these parts is responsible for mushy key feel.

There are indeed rubber-dome-on-PCB and rubber-dome-on-membrane keyboards that have a distinct landing, being about as mushy at the bottom as Topre. But they require pressing all the way to the bottom to actuate.

[Sintpinty]

Nope.  Membrane contact-based actuation mechanism is bad.  Rubbreh Domeh in and of itself is not bad... it is simply the spring/resistance function of a switch, and adds tactility.  Topre is a well-executed rubbreh domeh with electro-capacitive actuation.

The difference between mushy rubber domes and Topre is that the former has a solid cylinder of rubber inside the dome that presses the membrane together to provide actuation.
On some of these keyboards, that cylinder is in an inner dome, so that there would be some post-actuation travel. The softness of these parts is responsible for mushy key feel.

There are indeed rubber-dome-on-PCB and rubber-dome-on-membrane keyboards that have a distinct landing, being about as mushy at the bottom as Topre. But they require pressing all the way to the bottom to actuate.

Topre is the only good rubber dome, everything else rubber dome bad

[Sintpinty]

A friend of mine just dropped 100E on the Razer Ornata.
I'm pretty sure their enginneers spent weeks trying to figure out how to NOT make it mech but still place that lil metal bar to make it click loud enough.
Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

The Ornata seems like a terrible idea to me, personally.  And 100 Euro seems to be extremely poor value-for-money (laughable, really).  But someone, somewhere must like them, right?

It is a terrible idea.

[Mitchis]

People seem to forget that under the enhanced rubber dome, Topre also has a spring to make the travel linear, so besides the rubber touching feel, there is also a solid bottoming and a fast reset of the key.
And it's purely silent. You can type on that for a whole day and your fingers won't get tired, and your coworkers, won't shove your own keeb deep in your anatomy. But mech-membrane is just the worst of both worlds. Noise and a ****ty feel.

Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

I'd say it's pretty far off from being quite THAT bad, but I agree that it's terrible even from a fundamental perspective xD .

I honestly think that we are seeing the whole Razer marketing magic at work here, turning sh*t into gold with a bit of RGB. And it works like a charm.

[Findecanor]

People seem to forget that under the enhanced rubber dome, Topre also has a spring to make the travel linear, so besides the rubber touching feel, there is also a solid bottoming and a fast reset of the key.

The spring affects very little. The force curve is rather flat mostly because the domes were designed that way.
There are third-party BKE domes that you can install in a Topre to get more tactility.

You can type on that for a whole day and your fingers won't get tired[...]

Having used Topre full time at work at one time, I disagree with you. I had to change because my fingers ached.

[...]But mech-membrane is just the worst of both worlds. Noise and a ****ty feel.

"Mecha-membrane" and "mem-chanical" is not just one thing. They are words used by several brands, most of the time to describe decades-old key switch designs in an attempt to cash in on the mechanical keyboard trend.
In most instances, the words are used to describe dome-with-slider, spring-over-membrane mechanisms or rubber domes with hard landing ... or just some loosely defined "mechanical feel".

The issue with the Razer Ornata is not just words though. In that case, there is an attempt at simulating mechanical keyboards by having added a clicker to each rubber-dome-on-membrane switch.
And then there is Razer's marketing bull**** about it, ... about "crisp tactile click" (where the clicker has no bearing on tactility) and "combines the best of mechanical and membrane", when most people would agree it is the exact opposite: the noise from mechanical with the mushy bottom of rubber domes.

Usually, I would say that if you like a keyboard, you like it, regardless of what labels it has.
But in Razer's cases, I'd say that .. you should never support those bull****ters at Razer by buying Razer. At all. Nothing from them, even if the product itself happens to be good. They don't deserve your business.
It is not just about the Ornata. There have been many instances throughout the years. Their marketing has often been misleading, they have been skirting the edge to being fraudulent -- and it takes skill to do that, so they know damn sure what they are doing. They have no moral fibre.

[Sintpinty]

Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

The feels are bad with Razer Mecha Membrane. Razer Greens are best switch

[saint_james]

The feels are bad with Razer Mecha Membrane. Razer Greens Topre and Capacitive Buckling Springs are best switches

FTFY

[Sintpinty]

The feels are bad with Razer Mecha Membrane. Razer Greens Topre and Capacitive Buckling Springs are best switches

FTFY

I just like the click tbh...

[flurryvelvet]

Mecha-membrane keyboards are just a total scam.
I don't care what anybody says, a rubber dome keyboard with a clicker (and JUST a clicker) is not mechanical.
They also feel strange and barely tactile at all. The stiff rubber dome I'm using right now is probably more tactile.
Note that, yes, I know, the Razer Ornata is not the only mecha-membrane KB.
Don't lie to me. Every other mecha-membrane keyboard is pretty crap too. You know it.

Yeah, including the Model M without it's flimsy plastic rivets in the barrelplate. 

[flurryvelvet]

Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

I'd say it's pretty far off from being quite THAT bad, but I agree that it's terrible even from a fundamental perspective xD .

Coming from a person who reviewed an Acer switch over membrane in 2014.
And those switches were NOICE. 

[flurryvelvet]

The feels are bad with Razer Mecha Membrane. Razer Greens Topre and Capacitive Buckling Springs are best switches

FTFY

I just like the click tbh...

Kinda the same thing to me, although I liked the Copams better.

[Sintpinty]

Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

I'd say it's pretty far off from being quite THAT bad, but I agree that it's terrible even from a fundamental perspective xD .

Coming from a person who reviewed an Acer switch over membrane in 2014.
And those switches were NOICE. 

Pretty impressive for mecha membrane.

[frydaja]

Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

I'd say it's pretty far off from being quite THAT bad, but I agree that it's terrible even from a fundamental perspective xD .

Coming from a person who reviewed an Acer switch over membrane in 2014.
And those switches were NOICE. 

Pretty impressive for mecha membrane.

But if Acer switches are mecha-membrane, then so are non-capacitive buckling springs.

It's more like "Alps-over-membrane" than a "mecha-membrane".

IMO the rubberdomes that "feel the most similar to a mechanical keyboard" are Logitech G213 and NMB (mid-90s) domes. The G213 feels quite tactile, but has a much harder bottom-out than other domes. NMBs feel similar, but the tactility is much sharper.

[Sintpinty]

Mech-Membrane is EXACTLY what we don't want. Hands down the worst keyboard ever.

I'd say it's pretty far off from being quite THAT bad, but I agree that it's terrible even from a fundamental perspective xD .

Coming from a person who reviewed an Acer switch over membrane in 2014.
And those switches were NOICE. 

Pretty impressive for mecha membrane.

But if Acer switches are mecha-membrane, then so are non-capacitive buckling springs.

It's more like "Alps-over-membrane" than a "mecha-membrane".

IMO the rubberdomes that "feel the most similar to a mechanical keyboard" are Logitech G213 and NMB (mid-90s) domes. The G213 feels quite tactile, but has a much harder bottom-out than other domes. NMBs feel similar, but the tactility is much sharper.

I don't care about switch over membrane, its membrane over switch thats horrible

[Findecanor]

Show me a picture of an actual membrane-over-switch keyboard, with its mechanism or STFU!

Don't post nonsense!

[Sup]

Show me a picture of an actual membrane-over-switch keyboard, with its mechanism or STFU!

Don't post nonsense!

[yui]

Show me a picture of an actual membrane-over-switch keyboard, with its mechanism or STFU!

Don't post nonsense!

if i recall correctly the ibm beam springs have a membrane over the switches, to protect them from dust i do not have a picture and may be a bit too lazy to search right now.

[Sintpinty]

Show me a picture of an actual membrane-over-switch keyboard, with its mechanism or STFU!

Don't post nonsense!

if i recall correctly the ibm beam springs have a membrane over the switches, to protect them from dust i do not have a picture and may be a bit too lazy to search right now.

Yeah thats reasonable but i don't like rubbery feel

[frydaja]

Show me a picture of an actual membrane-over-switch keyboard, with its mechanism or STFU!

Don't post nonsense!

If he meant a rubber dome without a membrane:
BTC dome with slider is rubber dome mat with a conductive element over a PCB. Topre is a rubber dome mat over w/ a spring over a capacitive PCB. Alps integrated dome is an individual rubber dome with a conductive element in a housing with a conductive element on it.

But functionally, what difference does it make over a membrane screwed to a thick metal mounting plate (other than being able to solder stuff into a PCB)?
Yes, the membrane is flexible, but if you remove it from a keyboard, it feels like smooth plastic when you tap on it.


Speaking of Alps integrated dome, has nobody ever tried making a rubber dome with MX housing, keycap mount and pinout?

Show me a picture of an actual membrane-over-switch keyboard, with its mechanism or STFU!

Don't post nonsense!

if i recall correctly the ibm beam springs have a membrane over the switches, to protect them from dust i do not have a picture and may be a bit too lazy to search right now.

Corsair's K68 has a similar thing, a rubber mat over the mounting plate, to make the keyboard more water & dust resistant.

[Sintpinty]

Show me a picture of an actual membrane-over-switch keyboard, with its mechanism or STFU!

Don't post nonsense!

My apologies, i mean  switch over membrane

1000th post!