Have you ever felt a time where 60% was a hindrance

[Air tree]

Just wondering if you guys ever felt 60% keyboards hinder your typing/gaming experience when you need to use f keys alot (Some games use alot of fkeys)

And what form factor do you prefer?




This is not for me. I was just curious.

[rowdy]

I took my HHKB in to work one day and tried to use a couple of IDEs with it.

I seriously struggled with function keys and with arrow keys, or lack thereof.

I have decided that I need TKL to develop with, so I took my HHKB back home and use it on my Mac.

[tuxsavvy]

Just wondering if you guys ever felt 60% keyboards hinder your typing/gaming experience when you need to use f keys alot (Some games use alot of fkeys)

And what form factor do you prefer?




This is not for me. I was just curious.

Right at this moment for me is that I am sort of struggling a bit on the JIS layout. I have virtually set my machine to act like as if it was a proper modern Japanese keyboard is being plugged in. That and some of the keys don't actually work the way I thought they would.

I must admit that hitting the wrong keys whilst trying to change some old habits aren't as easy (for myself). Of course the majority of the reasoning behind it is enforced JIS layout (which once again goes back to my previous point). That and also some old habits of where the full sized keyboards have a tilde key where it would probably sit beside the Esc key. Again old habits that I guess needs some correction.

[noisyturtle]

Just wondering if you guys ever felt 60% keyboards hinder your typing/gaming experience

Indeed

And what form factor do you prefer?

TKL 4 LYFE YO

[tp4tissue]

It depends....

If it's fully programmable.. AND you can have multiple layers for different tasks.. then the number of keys on the 60% is more than enough..

split design however..  even better...

[terran5992]

60% for Gaming

TKL for work

[SpAmRaY]

The saying 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks', that'd be me.

Full size or bust!

But I'm still intrigued by the hhkb layout.

[Oobly]

I like TKL for editing, since it's the layout I've been using for more than 20 years and my fingers know exactly where to go.

I've been testing a layered layout briefly with arrow keys and home & end on the left hand and finding it surprisingly easy to get used to (been thinking of making a new version of my board without the dedicated arrows and edit keys and wanted to test a bit), so I think a 60% with a well-designed or customisable function layer wouldn't slow me down much. Just takes a bit of practice to get used to.

I think they should be in a completely different place to what you're used to so you don't get muscle memory confusion. I had this problem with my Roccat Arvo. It has a numpad which switches to arrows and edit keys, but the edit keys are one row lower than on a TKL and this caused major problems for me. Just couldn't get used to it. I find the layered one better, most likely because it is totally different (different hand, home and end next to the up button, etc), but still kind of intuitive.

[davkol]

Lack of dedicated Insert key used to bother me even on 75% keyboards.

[spiceBar]

I like TKL for editing, since it's the layout I've been using for more than 20 years and my fingers know exactly where to go.

I've been testing a layered layout briefly with arrow keys and home & end on the left hand and finding it surprisingly easy to get used to (been thinking of making a new version of my board without the dedicated arrows and edit keys and wanted to test a bit), so I think a 60% with a well-designed or customisable function layer wouldn't slow me down much. Just takes a bit of practice to get used to.

I think they should be in a completely different place to what you're used to so you don't get muscle memory confusion. I had this problem with my Roccat Arvo. It has a numpad which switches to arrows and edit keys, but the edit keys are one row lower than on a TKL and this caused major problems for me. Just couldn't get used to it. I find the layered one better, most likely because it is totally different (different hand, home and end next to the up button, etc), but still kind of intuitive.

I had EXACTLY the same experience with the Roccat Arvo. I had been looking for a TKL keyboard for so long and the Arvo looked to be exactly what I was looking for.

After a while I realized that the slightly moved keys killed me. So I removed the keys I did not use on the numpad, thinking that my touch would help me locate the upper half of the navigation cluster. Nope. It did not work. It was infuriating.

The Arvo has been living in a box with a bunch of other rubber domes since then.

This was one of my last attempts before I discovered mechanical keyboards.

And you are also right about the "slightly off" muscle memory effect. It's better to have keys located in completely different locations, so no muscle memory confusion can happen.

And to get back on topic, yes a 60% keyboard gets in the way sometimes. But it's a compromise. The smaller form factor is such a huge advantage in space saved on the desk, less hand travel while working and portability that in the end it's worth it.

But I would say that it is a question open for debate, and that some people will definitely say that the cons win over the pros.

And finally, I think that there is no completely satisfying 60% board at this time. So when one arrives, more people may change their minds about it.

[phetto]

Lack of dedicated Insert key used to bother me even on 75% keyboards.

What do you use insert key for?

[davkol]

Lack of dedicated Insert key used to bother me even on 75% keyboards.

What do you use insert key for?

copypasta

[genkidama]

Lack of dedicated Insert key used to bother me even on 75% keyboards.

What do you use insert key for?

copypasta

I hear it's quite delicious, maybe with some cheese?

[Puddsy]

Hotkey instensive games (SC2, GW2, others) are impossible to play on my 60%s.

[PointyFox]

Skull Girls is impossible to play on a 60%.  It requires pressing a combination of WASD and arrow keys.

[IvanIvanovich]

Never a problem for me. Even on some games that stubbornly won't let you remap keys off the F row for some idiot reason when half the rest of the keyboard is open... I have always so far been able to remap it manually in cfg or registry.

[stancato9]

Yes, quite a few times actually. Mainly minor things in games that could be remapped though. EX Switching vehicle seats in BF4 and a few things in Dota.

Like PointyFox said above, there are a few games that I have tried to play that require the arrow keys, that were not playable. Such as I Wanna Be The Guy.

[spiceBar]

Lack of dedicated Insert key used to bother me even on 75% keyboards.

What do you use insert key for?

Copy/paste in the command line under Linux. Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V do not work there.

I agree the Ins key has become mostly useless nowadays, except for this use.

[kmiller8]

I have trouble using a TK board, so yes, 60% is practically unusable for me.

[C5Allroad]

I don't own any 60% but I can imagine for gaming like BF4, Arma 3, Planetside 2, it would almost be impossible.

[Puddsy]

I don't own any 60% but I can imagine for gaming like BF4, Arma 3, Planetside 2, it would almost be impossible.

BF4 surprisingly easy

[C5Allroad]

What about quickly switching seats to repair or you might go boom?

[Air tree]

What about quickly switching seats to repair or you might go boom?

Does that require f keys? Haven't played bf4/bf3 as i haven't built my pc yet. If it doesn't require f keys or arrow keys then you're good.

[stancato9]

What about quickly switching seats to repair or you might go boom?

Does that require f keys? Haven't played bf4/bf3 as i haven't built my pc yet. If it doesn't require f keys or arrow keys then you're good.

Vehicle seats are mapped to the F keys. It's not a big deal though. You can map them to another key. Or even mouse buttons.

[DrinkTea]

Lack of dedicated Insert key used to bother me even on 75% keyboards.

What do you use insert key for?

Copy/paste in the command line under Linux. Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V do not work there.

I agree the Ins key has become mostly useless nowadays, except for this use.

Shift+Ins!
I don't get why linux distros can't have a more mac-like approach to key mappings and use the super key as control and control they way it was originally used and is still used on os X. Seems like a waste.

[Wall Street]

As my user name would suggest, I work for a bank.  Excel is very frustrating without the arrow cluster and numpad.  This would have to be the worst case scenario for 60% keyboard, so I must use a full keyboard in the office or when working from home.

[Dubsgalore]

Never, 60% or Die
Perfect Size for me 

[davkol]

As my user name would suggest, I work for a bank.  Excel is very frustrating without the arrow cluster and numpad.  This would have to be the worst case scenario for 60% keyboard, so I must use a full keyboard in the office or when working from home.

As I've mentioned it in some other thread, I don't consider this to be entirely right. Some compact keyboards with symmetrical layout do have embedded nav cluster or numpad. For example, TypeMatrix 2030 has an embedded numpad with layout identical to the one found on dedicated numeric keyboards, and arrows right next to it.

[gameaholic]

Hotkey instensive games (SC2, GW2, others) are impossible to play on my 60%s.

Is there such a thing as a 60% width but with F row keys?  Not quite 75% like a choc mini but maybe 70%.

[Surnia]

Took my gf's poker II into work a few times to break it in a bit for her, and for me... it sucked.

I have an absolute need for a keypad and the F row, as they're mapped to specific functions (the "+" from the standard layout is coded differently than the keypad's "+" for example). The F row is quite annoying, as shift+F row accesses the secondary layer (F13-24) meaning that I have to use Shift+Fn+number, which in some boards is blocked due to other functions.

For me it renders my work to a crawl as I must use two hands (which I'm not always at liberty of freeing up) all the time to access all functions. The smallest I'm able to use is the 75% with numpad integration, as found in the Keycool and Noppoo lines.

[laffindude]

I use 60% for everything. I don't use the physical keys outside of the main typing area even when I use bigger than 60% since my I have AHKed a function layer.

[Linkbane]

Took a look at moose's HHKB, and I think that I might actually have some issue with it because I use the F keys rather often to select URL and refresh and actually use the numbad, as well as circumflex/grave quite often.
I prefer TKL, and I love the TK's tenkey tenkeyless design.

[oholiab]

I'm currently using a Filco Minila, and was previously using an Apple Wireless, both of which are 60% but still have the arrow keys which means I'm still good for any games that require WASD and the arrow keys.

In terms of work, I never used the numpad and everything else is accounted for in the function layer, especially on the Minila where I'm now finding I don't ever have to move away from the home row, most significantly with cursor keys also being mapped to ESDF and backspace additionally mapped to ;

I've really never felt like it was a burden, and the only way I think I would is with hotkey intensive games which might need the F keys without having to hit Fn

[CPTBadAss]

I can't use anything but a fullsize at work. I think I could do TKL and num-pad but definitely *not* TKL alone, 75%, or 60%. I did an experiment at work one slow day and realized how much I rely on the numpad at work. So for me it's fullsize at work and 60% works fine at home.

[Air tree]

I can't use anything but a fullsize at work. I think I could do TKL and num-pad but definitely *not* TKL alone, 75%, or 60%. I did an experiment at work one slow day and realized how much I rely on the numpad at work. So for me it's fullsize at work and 60% works fine at home.

What do you do that makes you need a num pad? I find that even when i'm dealing with lots of numbers and other things the top number row suits me way more that the num pad.

[czarek]

I'm all good with HHKB for work as I mainly program Unix stuff in Vim on OS X so that's pretty much ideal habitat for HHKB.
Although I prefer to have full size keyboard for just about anything else, especially on Windows - gaming, CAD or even programming on Windows (working with Visual Studio without physical F keys and arrows is a pain - not to mention that to me it's a pain even with those keys). To be honest I don't know how anyone using Windows can like HHKB
For the most part I think I could live with Tenkeyless layout, although having this extra 17 keys on a right hand side is a blessing not a curse, I use them the way that when numlock is enabled it's normal number pad and when it's disabled I've got bunch of macros assigned to those keys.
Also I almost never use mouse (trackball actually) so having it closer or further from my home position on keyboard doesn't change the way I work much.

[CPTBadAss]

I can't use anything but a fullsize at work. I think I could do TKL and num-pad but definitely *not* TKL alone, 75%, or 60%. I did an experiment at work one slow day and realized how much I rely on the numpad at work. So for me it's fullsize at work and 60% works fine at home.

What do you do that makes you need a num pad? I find that even when i'm dealing with lots of numbers and other things the top number row suits me way more that the num pad.

CAD/engineering work.

[SpAmRaY]

I can't use anything but a fullsize at work. I think I could do TKL and num-pad but definitely *not* TKL alone, 75%, or 60%. I did an experiment at work one slow day and realized how much I rely on the numpad at work. So for me it's fullsize at work and 60% works fine at home.

What do you do that makes you need a num pad? I find that even when i'm dealing with lots of numbers and other things the top number row suits me way more that the num pad.

CAD/engineering work.

^^ this 1000x

No matter how hard I've tried I can't get away from full size at work.

[ideus]

Could you share your ahk script?

I use 60% for everything. I don't use the physical keys outside of the main typing area even when I use bigger than 60% since my I have AHKed a function layer.

[Linkbane]

So I'm wondering, has anyone tried using a TK at work which requires lots of numpad usage, and if not, what's are some of your thoughts on the TK TKL?

[Binge]

60% is the best.  I use it for everything.  Most other layouts just make me feel like I'm reaching all over my desk to find something.  With the 60% it's all right there.

[laffindude]

Could you share your ahk script?

I use 60% for everything. I don't use the physical keys outside of the main typing area even when I use bigger than 60% since my I have AHKed a function layer.

Code: [Select]

SendMode Input  ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
#NoEnv  ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
#MaxHotkeysPerInterval 200
#SingleInstance force

SetCapslockState, Off


myVERSION=0.4f

;Menu
Menu, Tray, NoStandard
Menu, Tray, Add
Menu, Tray, Add, Edit Script, Editing
Menu, Tray, Add,FN key: Capslock, Refreshing
Menu, Tray, Add
Menu, Tray, Add, Exit
Menu, Tray, Click, 1
Menu, Tray, Default, FN key: Capslock
Menu, Tray, Tip, LAffinScript %myVERSION%

Gosub *Capslock Up
return

;subs_____________________________________________
Exit:
ExitApp
return

Editing:
Edit
return

Refreshing:
Reload
return


;Keys binds_____________________________________________

*Capslock:: ;Press to start the binds
Suspend Off
Pause Off
return
*Capslock Up:: ;release = bye
Suspend On
Pause On
return

B::
IfWinExist, Calculator ahk_class CalcFrame
{
IfWinActive
WinMinimize
else
WinActivate
}
Else
Run calc.exe
return

Lshift & Rshift::SetCapsLockState, % GetKeyState("CapsLock", "T") ? "Off":"On"
;"% " start expression mode.
; ? : Ternary operator


;Mouse Keys
*W::MouseMove, 0, -10, 0, R
*A::MouseMove, -10, 0, 0, R
*S::MouseMove, 0, 10, 0, R
*D::MouseMove, 10, 0, 0, R
*R::Send {Blind}{WheelUp}
*F::Send {Blind}{WheelDown}
*Space::Send {Blind}{Click}
*Q::Send {XButton1}
*E::Send {XButton2}

;Media Keys
*P::Send {Media_Stop}
*[::Send {Media_Prev}
*]::Send {Media_Next}
*\::Send {Media_Play_Pause}

;reduce keypresses
*Z::Send ^{z}
*X::Send ^{x}
*C::Send ^{c}
*V::Send ^{v}

;IJKL = Arrows, HN = PG, M,= Home/end
*I::Send {Blind}{Up}
*J::Send {Blind}{Left}
*K::Send {Blind}{Down}
*L::Send {Blind}{Right}
*H::Send {Blind}{PgUp}
*N::Send {Blind}{PgDn}
*M::Send {Blind}{Home}
*,::Send {Blind}{End}

;Fx
*ESC::Send {Blind}{``}
*`::Send {Blind}{ESC}
*1::Send {Blind}{F1}
*2::Send {Blind}{F2}
*3::Send {Blind}{F3}
*4::Send {Blind}{F4}
*5::Send {Blind}{F5}
*6::Send {Blind}{F6}
*7::Send {Blind}{F7}
*8::Send {Blind}{F8}
*9::Send {Blind}{F9}
*0::Send {Blind}{F10}
*-::Send {Blind}{F11}
*=::Send {Blind}{F12}
*Backspace::Send {Blind}{Delete}


;blocking keys so you don't f things up while moving things around
; *q::
; *w::
; *e::
; *r::
*t::
*y::
*u::
; *i::
*o::
; *p::
; *[::
; *]::
; *\::

; *a::
; *s::
; *d::
; *f::
*g::
; *h::
; *j::
; *k::
; *l::
*`;::
*'::

; *z::
; *x::
; *c::
; *v::
; *b::
; *n::
; *m::
; *,::
*.::
*/::

return

Enjoy. It is semi commented.
One click on the tray icon will refresh the script when you edit it. Just a convenience thing.
Edit: the binds are written this way so it'll work with fn key + ctrl + shift + IJKL for control shift select thing or any other weird combo.

[Mr. C]

I use mostly TKL boards. IBM SSK, RealForce 87UW 45G, a couple of CMS QFRs (blue) for my desks (two desks in two offices). I also have a Leopold FC660C that I think is the best typing experience of the bunch. It's my travel keyboard. The small size is great for travel and working on a laptop.  I do miss having dedicated function keys when I ssh into server and use Midnight Commander, also the arrow cluster is just enough off to be awkward on the FC660C. I'm thinking I need to flip the left win key and function key on the Leo to make it better. The HHKB is a beautiful keyboard (especially the black case with white key combo) but I know the layout won't work for me. I work on a lot of client computers with typical full sized keyboards. No problem going from TKL to full sized for me.

[HoffmanMyster]

I can't use anything but a fullsize at work. I think I could do TKL and num-pad but definitely *not* TKL alone, 75%, or 60%. I did an experiment at work one slow day and realized how much I rely on the numpad at work. So for me it's fullsize at work and 60% works fine at home.

What do you do that makes you need a num pad? I find that even when i'm dealing with lots of numbers and other things the top number row suits me way more that the num pad.

CAD/engineering work.

I also could never use anything without a numpad at work or even school right now.  Having to manually enter pages of data does not work well without a numpad.

[reziak]

The only thing I've really missed is the occasional use of the numpad. Actually considering buying one and putting it on the left side of my 60% board

[SUPER432]

Windows, OllyDbg. No dedicated F7.

[Hyde]

I can't use anything but a fullsize at work. I think I could do TKL and num-pad but definitely *not* TKL alone, 75%, or 60%. I did an experiment at work one slow day and realized how much I rely on the numpad at work. So for me it's fullsize at work and 60% works fine at home.

What do you do that makes you need a num pad? I find that even when i'm dealing with lots of numbers and other things the top number row suits me way more that the num pad.

CAD/engineering work.

It's the same for me, I can't use anything less than a full size for work.  I do 3D visual effects type of work, need to input number and coordinates a lot.

That being said my curiosity took the best of me and I cave in and bought a Poker II to use at home.

I'm kind of conflicted now because it looks really nice and I like the extra desk space I get, but for certain tasks it just feel a bit tedious that I have to press extra buttons to do the same thing.