Feedback on my custom keyboard idea MKPedalion

[tototoru]

Hi,

I have an idea for a custom keyboard, I finalized the deign and want feedback so I can fix any issues before moving to actually making it.

Details here:
https://github.com/jawb/MKPedalion

Many thanks.

[LuX]

The thumb cluster as it is in the rendered plate design looks really awkward, how are you supposed to type on that? The sketched image looks a little better, but I would actually want to have the thumb cluster much higher (maybe higher than the finger plate, similar to how it is on the Kinesis/Maltron). As it is in your design it puts your thumb in a weak position where it puts a lot of strain to press down any more, not to mention that reaching the other thumb keys will be harder. Also, maybe it's just me, but are there enough keys on that keyboard? The Ergodox has an almost bare minimum for my taste, and it has more keys for potential layer usage as well, maybe your needs are different... Ultimately I don't see any benefit in your design than what already exists, but that is just my opinion, don't let that deter you.

[Findecanor]

A suggestion: print that out on a sheet of paper and try it out. If you have a spare Cherry G81 keyboard laying around then you could snap some switch modules off, cut off the mounting pins and place those on your sheet with double-sided tape.

I think that the Control, Command, Alt and Enter keys are too far down and close to the centre to be really comfortable.
Other columnar keyboards tend to have the innermost thumb key one row up from where you have yours.

[tototoru]

Thanks @Lux, @Findecanor for the feedback, I really appreciate it.

@Lux

I know it's an unconventional design, the way I intend to use the keyboard is not by hovering my fingers over it like most keyboards, it's hard to explain it but the source of my inspiration will give you an idea which is the MX master mouse, it has those side keys and a thumb button and the hand can work on the side, thumb and top while in a very comfortable position, I'm aiming for a similar result. I know a keyboard is very different from a mouse but I have to try and see how this will work. For keys the number is right for me.

@Findecanor
I will build a prototype in cardboard and experiment with it.
The plate design isn't how the keyboard will look like I basically have 3 plates for each side: main plate, side key and the 2 thumb keys.

[LuX]

Do you mean something like the Keymouse, without the mouse feature and instead tilted? (Roughly, different shape obviously)

I've used a Marathon Mouse with a similar hidden thumb button, I'm not saying it's physically impossible to use, but I still believe you're putting the thumb at a disatvantageous position for no reason.

If you don't intend on doing a lot of typing I guess it could be comfortable, for gaming for example. But contrary to popular belief, comfort and ergonomics don't always correlate (although it's great when they do). But maybe I'm picturing it all wrong and your design could be great after all.

[tototoru]

In the thumb cluster yes it's similar to Keymouse if those side keys are mechanical. In this picture you can see the position the design is trying to replicate:



When the hand is in it's natural position the thumb is facing the side hence the side key, but it can rotate on "Z axis" and hit those 2 other thumb keys easily. The top is tilted as well.

This is a work in progress and far from being ergonomic nor perfect, I'm trying nothing is written on stone and I appreciate the feedback.

[gallowgeek]

I've read the plans and it is actually quite good. But, I would love to see the actual finished product. I am interested to see it.

[algernon]

Interesting design, looks like a cross between an ErgoDox and a Shortcut, based on the cardboard test case picture. Pedals are a great idea too, something the Kinesis folks have been doing for a while now (as an add-on module). I'd certainly try tapping my feet on a few pedals...

[tototoru]

@gallowgeek @algernon

Thanks, I will receive the plates soon hopefully to test the feel on a rigid structure then start next phase.
I will try to post updates here as well as on my github page since you are interested in the idea.

[tp4tissue]

hi totoru.. the thumb button on the side wall won't work well, because you'd have to put your whole hand around the keyboard, THEN lift it back up for other keys.

[dantan]

This is incredible. I just love it. But how are you able to coordinate with the pedals? Pedals in the market are all programmable for specific uses; nothing that offers layer support. I don't see how you can match them with layers on your keyboard.

[algernon]

This is incredible. I just love it. But how are you able to coordinate with the pedals? Pedals in the market are all programmable for specific uses; nothing that offers layer support. I don't see how you can match them with layers on your keyboard.

As long as the pedals are connected to the keyboard, you can do pretty much anything. The keyboard firmware can treat it as just another button of sorts, and do whatever actions you want it to.

[tototoru]

@dantan

As @algernon stated pedals will work like any switch, in fact I'll have fallback buttons for pedals for portability, it will be hard to take pedals with you everywhere you go. So basically it's the same electrical switch, either it will be closed by the mechanical switch or the pedal.


@tp4tissue
I don't use the keyboard with floating hands, I always use a wrist rest so I'm planing to have some high wrist rests that will keep my hands stationary for optimal reach to all keys, so my thumbs will be always close to the thumb clusters in a position I can hit all the buttons. This will be much clearer when I get the plates and build more prototypes.

[tp4tissue]

@tp4tissue
I don't use the keyboard with floating hands, I always use a wrist rest so I'm planing to have some high wrist rests that will keep my hands stationary for optimal reach to all keys, so my thumbs will be always close to the thumb clusters in a position I can hit all the buttons. This will be much clearer when I get the plates and build more prototypes.

hrrrmm....   I don't think it is --impossible-- to remain stationary,  but   you can't do it without some wrist turning.


This is because you have at least 9 or 10(modified) alphabet keys in the middle row. + 2x shift keys

However for that row you have only 8 fingers..   So lateral movement will always be necessary to some degree..


Comfortable turning of you wrist usually only accounts for a 0.5 key width shift left/right. If you wanted to turn for a full key width , it gets into an uncomfortable angle..


Which is why hovering the hand is a more ergonomic technique to adapt.


And when hovering, moving the upper arm less than 1 degree can shift the entire hand position 1.5-2 key width in any direction..

This also keeps your wrist stationary which is always a plus when it comes to ergonomics.

[dantan]

Now I'm seeing the picture! So if I take standard Kinesis pedals like those commonly available on ebay for $15, plug them into the keyboard firmware instead of the computer directly, they can go ahead and send return or space or whatever Kinesis sets its pedals to do.

Keyboard firmware translates the return or space from the pedals into layer 1 or layer lock.

This is the kind of, why didn't I think of it idea. But then you will need to build support for the usb input on your pcb right? And presumably you need to do something about that with your teensy? The practical aspect I can't figure out.

How about another suggestion. There are these little buttons/ Cherry microswitches that they use on trackpads. Why not use them for layer locks? They take up little space and you don't press them as often as you press a regular key, and they probably could be mounted at right angles more easily. I'd imagine a keyboard with a row of these guys on the edge, acting as layer locks, caps lock, etc.

@dantan

As @algernon stated pedals will work like any switch, in fact I'll have fallback buttons for pedals for portability, it will be hard to take pedals with you everywhere you go. So basically it's the same electrical switch, either it will be closed by the mechanical switch or the pedal.


@tp4tissue
I don't use the keyboard with floating hands, I always use a wrist rest so I'm planing to have some high wrist rests that will keep my hands stationary for optimal reach to all keys, so my thumbs will be always close to the thumb clusters in a position I can hit all the buttons. This will be much clearer when I get the plates and build more prototypes.

[LuX]

You don't need a stand-alone usb connected pedal, just one that has mono audio plug. Then just connect it like any other switch.

[dantan]

You don't need a stand-alone usb connected pedal, just one that has mono audio plug. Then just connect it like any other switch.

Um, where do you connect that to?

Or do you mean, cut off that plug and just solder the wires to some point on the teensy treating it as an input?

[LuX]

You know that sockets exist? Then you solder the socket to teensy. Take a look at CST '5W' model trackballs, they pretty much do that exactly. Of course you could solder it directly, but I think OP want's to have them detach.
Electrically there should be no difference between a cherry switch and a generic foot pedal (unless it's "special"; capacitive or 'default on' or something like that) so there should be no problem treating it as a switch among others. The "special" ones can be used as well, but need extra steps in the software.

[tototoru]

Quick update:

The plates are here, I'm playing with the feel and angles to finish up my design, photos in the Github page.