GB Requirements Suggestion thread

[Michael]

I was speaking about this on slack, but thought I would bring it up here. Basically requiring GB organizers to follow a deadline schedule as a requirement to starting a GB.
Essentially saying, if they don't think they can adhere to these rules, then they will not be able to start a buy.

Initial thoughts for requirements -

1. Require that the GB organizer keeps a short deadline in which orders can be placed , lets say 30 days tops. After that, they must close orders and submit to GMK (or whichever manufacturer)
2. Require a timeframe in which the organizer has to submit funds to the manufacturer (assuming they met MOQ), maybe another 30 days. They must submit proof of the transaction in the OP of the buy thread
3. If #2 isn't met, and the organizer flakes, people should be advised to open a dispute in PayPal to retrieve their funds safely within the 180 day time period in which they are able to do so.
4. Consistent communication through each of these steps from the organizer.

Now as for production run-time from the manufacturer, we should take this into account as well. But the above requirements would just safeguard people in the GB from the organizer taking off with their
cash.

Your constructive input is welcome. I am merely offering suggestions on how to avoid another tragedy like Miami Nights, etc.

[ghostjuggernaut]

I think that this is a very good suggestion, possibly the best one I have seen so far.  I will make sure that this, and other options, are discussed with the Mod Team.

[romevi]

Pretty good outlines. I'd also like some structure on sets once they're in the sender's hands, time frame of when they all should be shipped, and restrictions on future GBs if the conditions aren't met.

But this is a really good start and should be implemented promptly.

[SpAmRaY]

Just curious why would it take 30 days to submit payment?

And what about having a timeline and action plan for fulfillment?

[Michael]

Just curious why would it take 30 days to submit payment?

And what about having a timeline and action plan for fulfillment?

30 days to collect and submit money


As for the fulfillment, that depends on the size and complexity of the order. If the organizer is putting sets together, or if GMK is sorting, etc, that needs to be outlined

[romevi]

Just curious why would it take 30 days to submit payment?

And what about having a timeline and action plan for fulfillment?

I think for some GBs they had to wait on some overseas people to complete the transfer, and then they'd have to transfer the huge sum to the manufacturer. I'd imagine it'd take a few days at the very least.

[Waateva]

This definitely seems like it would be the most realistic type of thing to implement, but from hearing about issues even after the sets are received by the OP I would agree with romevi that something should be implemented at that point as well.  Maybe have a 30-day window to get all sets out as well, unless you "request" an extension of time from the original GB thread participants via a poll or something?

[nubbinator]

I think a longer deadline to place orders is fine, but funds cannot be collected outside of a short 30 day window.  That gives people time to save up a little more money or sell some stuff.   Edit:  You rephrased it in your response to Spamray to say just this.


For point two, I like the idea that after the funds have been collected, they must be remitted to the company within 30 days and proof must be given.  I'm not sure that it should have to be publicly given though.  Maybe allow proof to be submitted to the mods in case the GB organizer doesn't want to release their supplier or personal information.  I know that when I did my plate group buy that even though I put the money up front and then collected funds afterwards that the only proof of payment I could have given was a copy of an endorsed and cashed check.  I would not feel comfortable posting that publicly.

Point 4 is huge.  Even if the update is that there is no new information, that is, at least, still an update.

This definitely seems like it would be the most realistic type of thing to implement, but from hearing about issues even after the sets are received by the OP I would agree with romevi that something should be implemented at that point as well.  Maybe have a 30-day window to get all sets out as well, unless you "request" an extension of time from the original GB thread participants via a poll or something?

30 days to ship everything can be unrealistic for some group buys, especially larger buys.  While it wasn't a massive buy, the buy I ran with the now defunct QWERKeys (which was in and of itself a nightmare for a multitude of reasons), I had a hard time getting everything out in two weeks because it was such a complex buy.  Some buys are just labor intensive and, as such, will take a fair bit more time to ship.

[ghostjuggernaut]

Just curious why would it take 30 days to submit payment?

And what about having a timeline and action plan for fulfillment?

It shouldn't.  But 30 days is a reasonable timeline where proof of payment should have been submitted.  If nothing has been submitted by that time, I think chargebacks/disputes would be reasonable.

What would be best, is if we were able to get a representative confirm receipt of payment in the thread as well.  IDK if GMK would be able to accommodate this, but it is something we could look into.  This should hopefully eliminate any doubt from participants that the order had been submitted and paid for.

[tp4tissue]

Orrrr....

Funnel EVERYTHING through ebay..   Everyone's covered...

[Waateva]

This definitely seems like it would be the most realistic type of thing to implement, but from hearing about issues even after the sets are received by the OP I would agree with romevi that something should be implemented at that point as well.  Maybe have a 30-day window to get all sets out as well, unless you "request" an extension of time from the original GB thread participants via a poll or something?

30 days to ship everything can be unrealistic for some group buys, especially larger buys.  While it wasn't a massive buy, the buy I ran with the now defunct QWERKeys (which was in and of itself a nightmare for a multitude of reasons), I had a hard time getting everything out in two weeks because it was such a complex buy.  Some buys are just labor intensive and, as such, will take a fair bit more time to ship.

That's fine, which is why I added the option to request an extension but maybe just require some sort of an update at that time instead.  I mean it could even be 60 days instead of 30, but hearing these stories of shipments just sitting at people's houses for months which little to no update on what is happening seems ridiculous.

[billnye]

30 days might be necessary for submitting payment because it takes time to transfer money from the PayPal to bank account, time to set up wire transfer and time for the wire transfer to process and until GMK receives it. For my last group buy, it took me 3 days for the money to get into my bank account, 2 days to get the wire transfer started and then 15 days for GMK to acknowledge that they received it. Some people might be in a situation where this takes longer, so I think 30 days is a fair amount.

30 days is definitely too short for most group buys to do all shipping, especially if the organizer needs to sort the sets themselves.

As long as the person running it communicates and explains how shipping is moving along, I don't see a problem. I would also suggest trying to get more input from people who have run a group buy, instead of getting most of the input and ideas from the customers.

[Michael]

30 days is definitely too short for most group buys to do all shipping, especially if the organizer needs to sort the sets themselves.

I definitely never said 30 days for shipping


That would be unrealistic for any GB. As long as they can give realistic deadlines based on experiences with different manufacturers, and if they have to sort sets themselves, etc.

[billnye]

30 days is definitely too short for most group buys to do all shipping, especially if the organizer needs to sort the sets themselves.

I definitely never said 30 days for shipping


That would be unrealistic for any GB. As long as they can give realistic deadlines based on experiences with different manufacturers, and if they have to sort sets themselves, etc.

I was referring to Waateva's comment:

Maybe have a 30-day window to get all sets out as well, unless you "request" an extension of time from the original GB thread participants via a poll or something?

[Waateva]

30 days is definitely too short for most group buys to do all shipping, especially if the organizer needs to sort the sets themselves.

I definitely never said 30 days for shipping


That would be unrealistic for any GB. As long as they can give realistic deadlines based on experiences with different manufacturers, and if they have to sort sets themselves, etc.

I was referring to Waateva's comment:

Maybe have a 30-day window to get all sets out as well, unless you "request" an extension of time from the original GB thread participants via a poll or something?

60/90/120, it doesn't really matter to me, but setting a finite window to hold the leader accountable to seems reasonable to me.  You could of course get more time, which is why I mentioned the request, but letting people know what is going on at all stages of the group buy seems to be the main goal here so why set deadlines everywhere else except for the sorting and shipping?

[tp4tissue]

30 days is definitely too short for most group buys to do all shipping, especially if the organizer needs to sort the sets themselves.

I definitely never said 30 days for shipping


That would be unrealistic for any GB. As long as they can give realistic deadlines based on experiences with different manufacturers, and if they have to sort sets themselves, etc.

I was referring to Waateva's comment:

Maybe have a 30-day window to get all sets out as well, unless you "request" an extension of time from the original GB thread participants via a poll or something?

60/90/120, it doesn't really matter to me, but setting a finite window to hold the leader accountable to seems reasonable to me.  You could of course get more time, which is why I mentioned the request, but letting people know what is going on at all stages of the group buy seems to be the main goal here so why set deadlines everywhere else except for the sorting and shipping?

You guys are solving the wrong problem..

It doesn't matter what timeframe we hold the Organizer to..

There is no enforcement, and no legal consequences.. That is the trouble..




If we go through EBAY... that fixes everything....

[Michael]

30 days is definitely too short for most group buys to do all shipping, especially if the organizer needs to sort the sets themselves.

I definitely never said 30 days for shipping


That would be unrealistic for any GB. As long as they can give realistic deadlines based on experiences with different manufacturers, and if they have to sort sets themselves, etc.

I was referring to Waateva's comment:

Maybe have a 30-day window to get all sets out as well, unless you "request" an extension of time from the original GB thread participants via a poll or something?

60/90/120, it doesn't really matter to me, but setting a finite window to hold the leader accountable to seems reasonable to me.  You could of course get more time, which is why I mentioned the request, but letting people know what is going on at all stages of the group buy seems to be the main goal here so why set deadlines everywhere else except for the sorting and shipping?

You guys are solving the wrong problem..

It doesn't matter what timeframe we hold the Organizer to..

There is no enforcement, and no legal consequences.. That is the trouble..




If we go through EBAY... that fixes everything....

Would you kindly go away, please. <3

[tp4tissue]

Let's assume we implement the whole 4 points you made in the OP.

Who will hold the Organizer to it...

What action besides more of the same whining and angry OT threads can be taken against the Organizer..

It really solves nothing, because there's no method of enforcement, as there is no legal protection for the sale..

Not only that,  there's also no insurance against the fraud..


Ebay fees might increase the cost,  but the insurance is worth it, and the seller is less likely to commit fraud, because all the documentations are in place to prevent it..

We can have the seller use a verified account tied to his bank account..  If he skips out, there will be significant consequences..


WITHOUT those consequences..  All of this banter is just wishful thinking..



By not going through ebay,  you save about 10 bux,  but now people are out hundreds...    Was that 10 bux worth it.. on the 2-3 or so group buys people get into per year ?

[jdcarpe]

Would eBay even allow for pre-orders?

If someone goes long on a group buy, they will do the same thing they do now. Give excuses, say everything is going along, just delayed, etc, etc.

[tp4tissue]

Would eBay even allow for pre-orders?

If someone goes long on a group buy, they will do the same thing they do now. Give excuses, say everything is going along, just delayed, etc, etc.

Ebay will do 30 days..

We can also go through kickstarter or indiegogo if need be.

[digi]

Would eBay even allow for pre-orders?

If someone goes long on a group buy, they will do the same thing they do now. Give excuses, say everything is going along, just delayed, etc, etc.

Ebay will do 30 days..

We can also go through kickstarter or indiegogo if need be.

Or Massdrop, haven't had one issue yet

[tp4tissue]

Would eBay even allow for pre-orders?

If someone goes long on a group buy, they will do the same thing they do now. Give excuses, say everything is going along, just delayed, etc, etc.

Ebay will do 30 days..

We can also go through kickstarter or indiegogo if need be.

Or Massdrop, haven't had one issue yet

As much as I am grateful to Massdrop for the very first Ergodox run..

I am not familiar with massdrop's insurance policies..

[hwood34]

30 days is definitely too short for most group buys to do all shipping, especially if the organizer needs to sort the sets themselves.

I definitely never said 30 days for shipping


That would be unrealistic for any GB. As long as they can give realistic deadlines based on experiences with different manufacturers, and if they have to sort sets themselves, etc.

I was referring to Waateva's comment:

Maybe have a 30-day window to get all sets out as well, unless you "request" an extension of time from the original GB thread participants via a poll or something?

60/90/120, it doesn't really matter to me, but setting a finite window to hold the leader accountable to seems reasonable to me.  You could of course get more time, which is why I mentioned the request, but letting people know what is going on at all stages of the group buy seems to be the main goal here so why set deadlines everywhere else except for the sorting and shipping?

You guys are solving the wrong problem..

It doesn't matter what timeframe we hold the Organizer to..

There is no enforcement, and no legal consequences.. That is the trouble..




If we go through EBAY... that fixes everything....

It's simple, we kill the Batman

[tp4tissue]

You guys are solving the wrong problem..

It doesn't matter what timeframe we hold the Organizer to..

There is no enforcement, and no legal consequences.. That is the trouble..




If we go through EBAY... that fixes everything....

It's simple, we kill the Batman

/Legit LOL... 

Thankyou hwood34

[Melvang]

For once, I actually agree with TP on this.  TP can also vouch for how often this has happened. 

Realistically, this is all just empty banter.  Not because it shouldn't be so, I do wish there was some way to hold GB organizers accountable.  There is zero method of enforcement and punishment aside from lost reputation, Sherryton/Orignative.  I may not know him personally, so have I ever bought from him or his site, but his reputation alone is enough for me to steer clear form his wares.

I am also a member of the dreaded Toxic set, still have not received cable or black on green alphas.  Am I mad at BL, BC, or CodyEatWorld?  No, only raccoon, because he is the one that ditched.  I don't know all the details, but I believe there was some extenuating circumstances.  Yes he could have logged in and mentioned something, admitted order numbers massively overwhelmed him, something.

But at the end of the day, WHAT CAN anyone here do?  Even if there was actual illegal activities, here realistically isn't much that can be done.  Not sure what statute of limitations are for this situation, but even if charges were pressed, what would that accomplish here, nothing.

On a side note, when I did my GB, I only had 4 parts, across 50 ish orders.  Granted, I wrote out all address's by hand, but I still had everything shipped in a week.  When I went to the post office, I was there close to an hour for all the international orders.  Some people don't have that kind of time to sit at the post office that long.  I realize there are probably ways to do this online, but sometimes for someone just starting with international shipping they might have a couple questions, especially with address format for other countries.

[heedpantsnow]

Bro, I like your ideas.

I have been asked a couple of times to run a GB and I always have the same hesitations: 1) what if I have a health/IRL crisis and 2) the temptation of handling so much money with little accountability.

With (1) I guess we could have alternate organizers for a given GB.  They would need to be included from the beginning to make sure they aren't caught off guard I guess.

For (2) I would add that there be a second party (could be elected by the participants, or an appointed senior member, etc.) that is privately CC'd on all communication to/from the manufacturer.

So for example, if I'm running a GB and tp is supposed to be CC'd. I say in the thread, "paid GMK" he can say "no he didn't" or "yep". If GMK drags their feet he can back me up saying "yes, they said it would be here last week and they are late".

There could even be rules about this person has to be in another country, etc. to make sure no funny business.


In the end there's not a lot we can do to totally eliminate risk. But there are things we can do to mitigate it.

[demik]

only requirement should be to give demik a set of whatever is being sold.

[nubbinator]

only requirement should be to give demik a set of whatever is being sold.

demik price of all GBs is GB+20% inconvenience fee.

[harlw]

I'm on favor of original post.

[Michael]

The reason I can't see eBay being a feasible option, would be the manufacturing times. I would think eBay would limit it to 30 days or something, whereas
it would take anywhere from a couple of weeks, to a couple of months. On top of that, someone still needs to sort the sets, so you will still need an organizer
to do this. So between the original suggestion and this, it's adding an extra step that isn't required, and most likely wouldn't accommodate a group buy.


Either way could secure the money, but the end of each option is still a single person or persons sorting and shipping the items.

[digi]

The reason I can't see eBay being a feasible option, would be the manufacturing times. I would think eBay would limit it to 30 days or something, whereas
it would take anywhere from a couple of weeks, to a couple of months. On top of that, someone still needs to sort the sets, so you will still need an organizer
to do this. So between the original suggestion and this, it's adding an extra step that isn't required, and most likely wouldn't accommodate a group buy.


Either way could secure the money, but the end of each option is still a single person or persons sorting and shipping the items.

What about using Massdrop?

[Photekq]

I think the 4 points in the OP are generally sensible.

Running it through eBay is not a good idea. You're going to end up having the GB runners getting scammed/screwed over if you do that, since eBay is so biased in favour of buyers.

I think it would also be sensible to limit people to one group buy at a time. The official announcement of a group buy ending could be either 1) everything has been shipped 2) everything has been received not including replacement keys, etc. 3) everything has been received including replacement keys, etc.

[byker]

Lets keep this thread on topic please. Cleaned up the personal attacks.

[demik]

Lets keep this thread on topic please. Cleaned up the personal attacks.

did you give out warnings?

[digi]

Lets keep this thread on topic please. Cleaned up the personal attacks.

Thanks Byker! I'm trying to stay on topic, but Bunny keeps attacking me. Let's be civil people! I've moved on, hopefully he can too.

[demik]

toooooooold you, say anything about ctrlalt and the mods will make you pay OnO

[BunnyLake]

toooooooold you, say anything about ctrlalt and the mods will make you pay OnO

I got a warning as well

It has nothing to do with ctrl alt and everything about him **** posting about me all day

He got off pretty light compared to me post to warning level wise

[demik]

toooooooold you, say anything about ctrlalt and the mods will make you pay OnO

I got a warning as well

It has nothing to do with ctrl alt and everything about him **** posting about me all day

He got off pretty light compared to me post to warning level wise

i haven't really been watching his posts but i don't see any cursing your way.

but eh, it'll be a waste of time arguing it since the mods pick and choose anyway.

[byker]

toooooooold you, say anything about ctrlalt and the mods will make you pay OnO

If you want to talk about either of those, feel free to pm me directly. I am not against people discussing either of those things, just not in this place.

[BunnyLake]

toooooooold you, say anything about ctrlalt and the mods will make you pay OnO

I got a warning as well

It has nothing to do with ctrl alt and everything about him **** posting about me all day

He got off pretty light compared to me post to warning level wise

i haven't really been watching his posts but i don't see any cursing your way.

but eh, it'll be a waste of time arguing it since the mods pick and choose anyway.

The difference is demik you are smart enough to know where the line is

[demik]

toooooooold you, say anything about ctrlalt and the mods will make you pay OnO

If you want to talk about either of those, feel free to pm me directly. I am not against people discussing either of those things, just not in this place.

i've already talked enough to photoelectric about moderation.

and of course it always goes nowhere. so nah, im fine.

[tp4tissue]

The KEY to dealing with Warning levels  is to keep leveling Up..

Eventually, the exp requirement is so high,  the Mods can't keep up with you..

And if you get banned,  that's perfectly fine,  you can cast a VPN resurrection spell..


Microsoft Windows just kept making accounts until the mods let him back in..

There's very little they can actually do against persistence..


POWER to the people.. Down with the Aristocracy..

[MAR82]

That solution would be a bit like what justnits is doing with his GMK 9009 GB, and I like it!

[katushkin]

For once, I actually agree with TP on this.  TP can also vouch for how often this has happened. 

Realistically, this is all just empty banter.  Not because it shouldn't be so, I do wish there was some way to hold GB organizers accountable.  There is zero method of enforcement and punishment aside from lost reputation, Sherryton/Orignative.  I may not know him personally, so have I ever bought from him or his site, but his reputation alone is enough for me to steer clear form his wares.

I am also a member of the dreaded Toxic set, still have not received cable or black on green alphas.  Am I mad at BL, BC, or CodyEatWorld?  No, only raccoon, because he is the one that ditched.  I don't know all the details, but I believe there was some extenuating circumstances.  Yes he could have logged in and mentioned something, admitted order numbers massively overwhelmed him, something.

But at the end of the day, WHAT CAN anyone here do?  Even if there was actual illegal activities, here realistically isn't much that can be done.  Not sure what statute of limitations are for this situation, but even if charges were pressed, what would that accomplish here, nothing.

On a side note, when I did my GB, I only had 4 parts, across 50 ish orders.  Granted, I wrote out all address's by hand, but I still had everything shipped in a week.  When I went to the post office, I was there close to an hour for all the international orders.  Some people don't have that kind of time to sit at the post office that long.  I realize there are probably ways to do this online, but sometimes for someone just starting with international shipping they might have a couple questions, especially with address format for other countries.

While eBay's format is completely different to a GB, it is better for us to use an already existing infrastructure than to use one we create, because at the end of the day, there are no consequences. Nothing. Props to swimmingbird for starting an Ivan action thread, but there is nothing he can do about it. If anyone screws over the community, all that happens is that they can't come back. So what? Is $10k enough to make up for not being part of a community? Sure it is.

All someone then has to do is wait until they move house, create another email address for paypal, and use a fake name for return shipping and you can do it all again.

We can put loads of safeguards in place, and this will still happen. We can put no safeguards in place, and this will still happen. At the end of the day, the only consequence is the backlash of the community.

[dgneo]

It seems there's a couple of options at this point:

1. If the GB's are to be run on GeekHack with one person collecting money, ensure that within 180 days the payment is sent to the manufacturer. Now, this definitely won't guarantee a smooth outcome, but at least it guarantees the manufacturer has the funds and can begin production on the set. If it's possible, maybe even have a secondary contact with the manufacturer, in the even that person 1 disappears for whatever reason, person 2 can have the caps shipped to them (I don't know if this is even possible).

2. Use a 3rd Party site to run the group buy. Tilt, Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc. There's got to be options out there, with a bit of research, I'm sure we can find one that would suit our needs.

[skycrimes]

dunno if its been said and idk how you would police this, but asking for constant updates still seems too vague. I think there should be a set time period where an update (even if its nothing) should be given. Like 15 days after the gb goes live, then 15 days after that so around the time it closes. Etc. People dont have to wait 15 days if something comes up but something should be said at least every 15 days.

[vivalarevolución]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

[nubbinator]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

With harshly worded letters posted on GH.

[jdcarpe]

Damn, getting the GB funds for the JD45 buy out of PayPal and into a bank account is proving more difficult than it should be. First, I had to go open a new bank account. That's because I won't have GB funds mixed with my personal finances. I want everything to be separate, so I can keep track of which funds are which. Then I had to add that new bank account to my PayPal account. Then I had to call PayPal to get the monthly withdrawl limit ($1000) lifted. Now I have to wait until their system updates to make the transfer to my bank account, which will take several days. THEN, once the funds are verified to be in my bank account, I can finally make the wire transfer to Taiwan to pay for the pre-orders to be manufactured. FYI, international wire transfers aren't cheap.

I understand that PayPal and the bank want to verify my identity, and funds availability, etc. to prevent fraud. But damn, this is ridiculous!

[Waateva]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

[Michael]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

If you read the OP, you would see where I stated 'If the organizer becomes unresponsive, the participants will be advised to open a paypal dispute'


This absolutely enforces that the organizer wont take off with the money and out of the 180 day dispute window. If at any point the requirements of the GB aren't adhered to,
the organizer risks having his PP account frozen due to the GB disputing.

[tp4tissue]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

If you read the OP, you would see where I stated 'If the organizer becomes unresponsive, the participants will be advised to open a paypal dispute'


This absolutely enforces that the organizer wont take off with the money and out of the 180 day dispute window. If at any point the requirements of the GB aren't adhered to,
the organizer risks having his PP account frozen due to the GB disputing.

Oh really?

So he writes:  PROOF I'm NOT a SCAMMER..  on a piece of paper every month..  THIS somehow holds him accountable... ??

UPDATES don't matter...   what matters is INSURANCE should something go WRONG...

If you don't have a gun to your head.. NOTHING GETS DONE..


This is a business fundamental..

[FLFisherman]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

If you read the OP, you would see where I stated 'If the organizer becomes unresponsive, the participants will be advised to open a paypal dispute'


This absolutely enforces that the organizer wont take off with the money and out of the 180 day dispute window. If at any point the requirements of the GB aren't adhered to,
the organizer risks having his PP account frozen due to the GB disputing.

Oh really?

So he writes:  PROOF I'm NOT a SCAMMER..  on a piece of paper every month..  THIS somehow holds him accountable... ??

UPDATES don't matter...   what matters is INSURANCE should something go WRONG...

If you don't have a gun to your head.. NOTHING GETS DONE..


This is a business fundamental..

No, what hold the GB leader accountable is PayPal's 180-day claims policy. This is the insurance. If progress is not made in 180 days, and it looks like the GB leader is trying to run with the money, then you call up PayPal and get your money back.

[tp4tissue]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

If you read the OP, you would see where I stated 'If the organizer becomes unresponsive, the participants will be advised to open a paypal dispute'


This absolutely enforces that the organizer wont take off with the money and out of the 180 day dispute window. If at any point the requirements of the GB aren't adhered to,
the organizer risks having his PP account frozen due to the GB disputing.

Oh really?

So he writes:  PROOF I'm NOT a SCAMMER..  on a piece of paper every month..  THIS somehow holds him accountable... ??

UPDATES don't matter...   what matters is INSURANCE should something go WRONG...

If you don't have a gun to your head.. NOTHING GETS DONE..


This is a business fundamental..

No, what hold the GB leader accountable is PayPal's 180-day claims policy. This is the insurance. If progress is not made in 180 days, and it looks like the GB leader is trying to run with the money, then you call up PayPal and get your money back.

Paypal does not cover custom made goods under their purchase protection.

There is also no way to verify that the group buy updates are real.

[Michael]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

If you read the OP, you would see where I stated 'If the organizer becomes unresponsive, the participants will be advised to open a paypal dispute'


This absolutely enforces that the organizer wont take off with the money and out of the 180 day dispute window. If at any point the requirements of the GB aren't adhered to,
the organizer risks having his PP account frozen due to the GB disputing.

Oh really?

So he writes:  PROOF I'm NOT a SCAMMER..  on a piece of paper every month..  THIS somehow holds him accountable... ??

UPDATES don't matter...   what matters is INSURANCE should something go WRONG...

If you don't have a gun to your head.. NOTHING GETS DONE..


This is a business fundamental..

I don't think you are paying attention here.

[tp4tissue]

If you must use paypal,  they also offer a crowd funding program..

It is more rigorous than their regular system of payment.

we can Go through that if you guys are adamant about using paypal

[Michael]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

If you read the OP, you would see where I stated 'If the organizer becomes unresponsive, the participants will be advised to open a paypal dispute'


This absolutely enforces that the organizer wont take off with the money and out of the 180 day dispute window. If at any point the requirements of the GB aren't adhered to,
the organizer risks having his PP account frozen due to the GB disputing.

Oh really?

So he writes:  PROOF I'm NOT a SCAMMER..  on a piece of paper every month..  THIS somehow holds him accountable... ??

UPDATES don't matter...   what matters is INSURANCE should something go WRONG...

If you don't have a gun to your head.. NOTHING GETS DONE..


This is a business fundamental..

No, what hold the GB leader accountable is PayPal's 180-day claims policy. This is the insurance. If progress is not made in 180 days, and it looks like the GB leader is trying to run with the money, then you call up PayPal and get your money back.

Paypal does not cover custom made goods under their purchase protection.

There is also no way to verify that the group buy updates are real.

Yes they do cover items not received. If you dispute item not received, and the seller cannot prove an item was shipped or do it within the 7 days from the dispute they require, you get a refund.


Please go do your research before arguing

[vivalarevolución]

Damn, getting the GB funds for the JD45 buy out of PayPal and into a bank account is proving more difficult than it should be. First, I had to go open a new bank account. That's because I won't have GB funds mixed with my personal finances. I want everything to be separate, so I can keep track of which funds are which. Then I had to add that new bank account to my PayPal account. Then I had to call PayPal to get the monthly withdrawl limit ($1000) lifted. Now I have to wait until their system updates to make the transfer to my bank account, which will take several days. THEN, once the funds are verified to be in my bank account, I can finally make the wire transfer to Taiwan to pay for the pre-orders to be manufactured. FYI, international wire transfers aren't cheap.

I understand that PayPal and the bank want to verify my identity, and funds availability, etc. to prevent fraud. But damn, this is ridiculous!

Thanks Obama!

[jdcarpe]

Thanks Obama!

I think it was actually Bush 43 that started this crap. All in the name of protecting the US from "terrrrrists." Obama just keeps perpetuating it.

[vivalarevolución]

Thanks Obama!

I think it was actually Bush 43 that started this crap. All in the name of protecting the US from "terrrrrists." Obama just keeps perpetuating it.

And we'll be monitoring your financial activity until the expiration of the statute of limitations, jdcarpe.

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

If you read the OP, you would see where I stated 'If the organizer becomes unresponsive, the participants will be advised to open a paypal dispute'


This absolutely enforces that the organizer wont take off with the money and out of the 180 day dispute window. If at any point the requirements of the GB aren't adhered to,
the organizer risks having his PP account frozen due to the GB disputing.

So not exactly enforceable, but sort of a "get-out" clause for any buyer.  The 180-day window also reduces the flexibility for a buy that is run by an ethical individual but ran into a few complications here and there.  180 days is up, and then POOF!, they lose all credibility, even though there were a decent chap.  A scammer could easily take advantage of this by claiming credibility and delay until the end of the 180 day window with a complication here and there.

I am of the philosophy that the more rules we try to create, the more creative the scammers will get.  We cannot force group buy leaders to be consistent with their communication, or they can easily scam us into believing the payments were submitted to the manufacturer by creating a fake invoice, or build up reliability for a later scam.  I don't know, but more rules just requires more creativity.

Rather than the relying on Paypal to sort there matters out, I think the most reasonable method is create some sort of legal entity that must be held accountable for delivering the products to paying customers.  If they don't deliver the product as promised, they must refund customers.  Every group buy organizer must use this legal entity to accept payments for a group buy.  Obviously, this would require legal counsel to completely sort it out the details.  It is a way more serious and complicated solution the group buy scams, but might the best long term solution.

Besides that, caveat emptor, as always.

[jdcarpe]

Basically, there is no easy solution. If we tell everyone to dispute at the 180-day mark, some group buys aren't going to get done. People are going to get nervous and lock up organizers' PayPal accounts, and then no one is going to want to organize group buys. If I can't send a payment to a supplier because my PayPal account is locked up, it's not going to be good for any of the participants.

AFAIK, it's not impossible to bring legal action for fraud on someone who purposely runs off with GB funds. Someone would have to coordinate with law enforcement in the jurisdiction where the organizer lives.

The one thing that would probably work would be an escrow service, but I'm not aware of any that exist for our purposes. As someone who has built trust in the community, I haven't really looked into it.

[Michael]

So not exactly enforceable, but sort of a "get-out" clause for any buyer.  The 180-day window also reduces the flexibility for a buy that is run by an ethical individual but ran into a few complications here and there.  180 days is up, and then POOF!, they lose all credibility, even though there were a decent chap.  A scammer could easily take advantage of this by claiming credibility and delay until the end of the 180 day window with a complication here and there.

I am of the philosophy that the more rules we try to create, the more creative the scammers will get.  We cannot force group buy leaders to be consistent with their communication, or they can easily scam us into believing the payments were submitted to the manufacturer by creating a fake invoice, or build up reliability for a later scam.  I don't know, but more rules just requires more creativity.

Rather than the relying on Paypal to sort there matters out, I think the most reasonable method is create some sort of legal entity that must be held accountable for delivering the products to paying customers.  If they don't deliver the product as promised, they must refund customers.  Every group buy organizer must use this legal entity to accept payments for a group buy.  Obviously, this would require legal counsel to completely sort it out the details.  It is a way more serious and complicated solution the group buy scams, but might the best long term solution.

Besides that, caveat emptor, as always.

Essentially, if a GB cannot be organized within the 'safe' time period, it just shouldn't happen. Complications can happen, obviously, but the part I am suggesting is just making sure the money gets
where it needs to go without the risk of an individual running off with it. If the money has already been sent to the manufacturer, chances are a lot better that customers will get what they paid for
versus cash in someone's pocket that never reached the manufacturer. There obviously needs to be discussion around what happens after GMK completes production, so feel free to add to this.
I see a lot of complaining about aspects of this, but nobody offering any alternatives.

I was thinking about the production side of things, and perhaps assigning a 'backup' person to take on the shipping end, should the original organizer have any issues post-production. There have
been a few instances such as health-related matters, where an individual was not able to deliver the good due to being sick, injured, etc. Perhaps having a backup person or persons, would alleviate
this problem. Perhaps working with the manufacturer to contact both organizers to give the 'OK' on where it needs to go once complete.

So for example;

Group Buy Proposal 1:

GMK Beige Set
Primary organizer: Bob
Secondary organizer: Billy
30 days open for orders
15-30 days money collection period
Submit to GMK
Post confirmation of GMK receiving funds for the GB to move forward

[heedpantsnow]

Bro, I like your ideas.

I have been asked a couple of times to run a GB and I always have the same hesitations: 1) what if I have a health/IRL crisis and 2) the temptation of handling so much money with little accountability.

With (1) I guess we could have alternate organizers for a given GB.  They would need to be included from the beginning to make sure they aren't caught off guard I guess.

For (2) I would add that there be a second party (could be elected by the participants, or an appointed senior member, etc.) that is privately CC'd on all communication to/from the manufacturer.

So for example, if I'm running a GB and tp is supposed to be CC'd. I say in the thread, "paid GMK" he can say "no he didn't" or "yep". If GMK drags their feet he can back me up saying "yes, they said it would be here last week and they are late".

There could even be rules about this person has to be in another country, etc. to make sure no funny business.


In the end there's not a lot we can do to totally eliminate risk. But there are things we can do to mitigate it.

As I mentioned above (got lost in the name calling earlier) I think having an outside party in the communications loop with the manufacturer is key.

[LXXXIX]

I like these ideas and I definitely think there should be a finite number for these GBs. I think that organizers who are doing GBs should be required to start with small ones before they tackle large scale ones. Just a way to build trust with the community. What I mean by small I mean such as spacebars, arrow cluster, or ESC pack runs.

Another idea I'd like to see more in GBs is to have a max order quantity. The 9009 GB did this and I like it for various reasons;

1. People have to pull the trigger fast to join. Doesn't promote "floating" behavior.

2. Still sizable to manage on a physical level.

3. Faster turnover.

4. Gives people a chance to save-up for another batch(2nd run).

5. I also think it promotes creativity since ideas move a little faster.

Anyone else think this should be utilized a little more?

[Michael]

Bro, I like your ideas.

I have been asked a couple of times to run a GB and I always have the same hesitations: 1) what if I have a health/IRL crisis and 2) the temptation of handling so much money with little accountability.

With (1) I guess we could have alternate organizers for a given GB.  They would need to be included from the beginning to make sure they aren't caught off guard I guess.

For (2) I would add that there be a second party (could be elected by the participants, or an appointed senior member, etc.) that is privately CC'd on all communication to/from the manufacturer.

So for example, if I'm running a GB and tp is supposed to be CC'd. I say in the thread, "paid GMK" he can say "no he didn't" or "yep". If GMK drags their feet he can back me up saying "yes, they said it would be here last week and they are late".

There could even be rules about this person has to be in another country, etc. to make sure no funny business.


In the end there's not a lot we can do to totally eliminate risk. But there are things we can do to mitigate it.

As I mentioned above (got lost in the name calling earlier) I think having an outside party in the communications loop with the manufacturer is key.

Sorry I didn't see this through the other stuff. Right on. 

[rowdy]

30 days for orders might not be long enough if there is a high MOQ e.g. GMK.  Maybe allow up to 60 days for orders - 30 days standard for smaller GBs, 60 days standard for GMK or uncommon GBs so people have some expectation what to expect.

NO PAYMENTS to be collected during the order phase.

Maximum 30 days to collect all payments.  You'll always get a few people dropping out at this stage - that should be taken into account in the total order numbers if only very slightly above MOQ.

Maximum 30 days to submit order and full payment to the manufacturer.  You might end up having everyone pay in the last few days, but as long as they do, that should allow plenty of time for chargebacks, should things go arse over tits.

Manufacture period - will vary.

Packing/shipping period will also vary, and is there any way to put a limit on this?  IC/GB might decide to have the GB organiser sort everything in order to avoid increasing the cost of each order.  Or may decide to pay a little extra to have the manufacturer sort the orders.  Shipping times may vary depending on the GB organiser's ability to carry and submit multiple packages to their postal service, especially OS orders, where separate customs forms may need to be submitted for each individual OS order.

I've seen GBs go under at all stages, including the shipping stage where the GB organiser disappeared with all of the product.  Can't really do much about the shipping stage, other than having volunteers ready to step in to help should the GB organiser become overwhelmed (again, seen this, and it didn't work out - product is still missing).

[Lepidus]

I think we shouldnt wait the mods to enforce this.
I understand their position, I even agree, the way groupbuys are run here the less they involve themselves the better. Its dangerous for them to get in the middle and end being blamed for something that is not their fault. I mean, look at Ivan GB, hoffman got some very hateful comments for just relaying info.

Mods not involving themselves does not prevent the comunity from doing the job though. Users and GB organizers should agree on a schedule and simply put it to use. Why wait? The organizers who follow the agreement will have a nice boost of trust, and those who dont will still be able to run everything like they did before. Eventually they will be pressed by the users to follow the schedule, or loose potential buyers.

When starting a new groupbuy, keep a little space to say you are following the schedule X agreed here. That you will get payment until A, will give proof of order placement until B, that you will post every C days to inform you havent vanished, etc. The final action is still done by the user: disputing the paypal payment. There is no need for Mods to be involved in this if they dont want to.
 

[Michael]

I think we shouldnt wait the mods to enforce this.
I understand their position, I even agree, the way groupbuys are run here the less they involve themselves the better. Its dangerous for them to get in the middle and end being blamed for something that is not their fault. I mean, look at Ivan GB, hoffman got some very hateful comments for just relaying info.

Mods not involving themselves does not prevent the comunity from doing the job though. Users and GB organizers should agree on a schedule and simply put it to use. Why wait? The organizers who follow the agreement will have a nice boost of trust, and those who dont will still be able to run everything like they did before. Eventually they will be pressed by the users to follow the schedule, or loose potential buyers.

When starting a new groupbuy, keep a little space to say you are following the schedule X agreed here. That you will get payment until A, will give proof of order placement until B, that you will post every C days to inform you havent vanished, etc. The final action is still done by the user: disputing the paypal payment. There is no need for Mods to be involved in this if they dont want to.

The mods aren't being involved. They are just setting the rules you must follow in order to run a GB.


It's up to the participants on how they want to proceed, should the GB go bad.

[trenzafeeds]

The mods aren't being involved. They are just setting the rules you must follow in order to run a GB.


It's up to the participants on how they want to proceed, should the GB go bad.

I think this makes sense. I guess it would be nice though for there to be some sort of system in place for people moving forward to dispute/not-dispute as a group. For instance, if the buy leader is able to offer a perfectly good reason for why the manufacturing is delayed, for example, there's always those three or four people who will want to just go ahead and dispute anyway (often because they haven't really read the thread). I'm not sure what could be done about this, but it would be cool if under this system people acted as a unit, instead of really fractured based on how much they individually trust the leader of the groupbuy.

[Michael]

The mods aren't being involved. They are just setting the rules you must follow in order to run a GB.


It's up to the participants on how they want to proceed, should the GB go bad.

I think this makes sense. I guess it would be nice though for there to be some sort of system in place for people moving forward to dispute/not-dispute as a group. For instance, if the buy leader is able to offer a perfectly good reason for why the manufacturing is delayed, for example, there's always those three or four people who will want to just go ahead and dispute anyway (often because they haven't really read the thread). I'm not sure what could be done about this, but it would be cool if under this system people acted as a unit, instead of really fractured based on how much they individually trust the leader of the groupbuy.

That would be interesting if PayPal had some platform for group buys, like if x number of participants complain, they will freeze funds. But I don't think that would happen, as either way, individual disputes will always be there.
I don't think they would say 'only if they whole group disputes will you get your money back'. So I dunno.

[zennasyndroxx]

For those GB that's non GMK/SP related like springs, switches, films or what not we can do them in batches, with a set amount of orders so GB organizers won't overwhelm themselves with orders.

[sambarugh]

Is there any way to get a counter associated with each GB, starting at 0 from the day it launches, so that participants can see how many days have elapsed? It could serve as a quick visual indicator of how long it's been running and if it's getting close to the 180 days period.

[Waateva]

Crossposting from the GMK Miami Nights thread

I still don't see why the idea of a GeekHack company isn't being pushed for by more people.

Because it would be a ton of work, and very few people are in the position to step up to the plate. It's much easier to offer that as a suggestion than it is for anyone to follow through with it.

How so?  You create a C-Corp called, oh how about GeekHack Buys Inc, which GBs can have the option of running through.  Creating a C-Corp is stupidly easy and I could have it setup in under 10 minutes as long as I have the information required such as an address or PO Box and at least one "owner" to put the Corporation under.  This would allow people who want to use the Corporation for facilitating GBs the ability to do so, and also give people who want to get into the GB some reassurance that their money won't be snatched away.  This way also solves personal liability and personal tax issues as C-Corps do not flow to owner's personal tax returns as they instead pay the flat Corporate tax rate on any profit, which should ideally be nothing.

For this option, you pay a very small fee which covers fees related to the C-Corp but also gives you insurance, which could be in name only or could be actual liability insurance through a 3rd party covering GeekHack Buys Inc if people wanted it.  Then the GB organizer simply transfers the money to the Corporation, which then pays whatever vendor they are running through, and that's all the Corporation would theoretically have to be involved.  This also wouldn't have to be a requirement to run a GB on GeekHack as you could definitely run one yourself, but then you the buyer run the risk of what has now happened multiple times of people walking away with thousands and thousands of dollars.

I am just trying to find a solution to this problem and future unseen problems, because eventually someone is gonna get ****ed by the IRS running these and they are gonna get whacked with the tax bill because of it.  If you guys want to keep gambling that great, but having personally dealt with the IRS and people who gamble on almost a daily basis, I can tell you this GB system is going to blow up eventually.

Incorporating isn't the issue; Managing and running it is.

The tax liability issues would still be there for the organizer if they're collecting funds to be transferred to the GB corp. Maybe I'm missing something (you're the tax guy), but that seems no different than transferring directly to the manufacturer from a tax perspective. If that's a potential issue, then collecting funds and transferring to GB corp would be as well. And if the goal is avoiding organizer mismanagement, there's still inherent risk in sending them the money in the first place.

Assuming the above is correct, GB corp would need to be involved in collecting payments. This has a ton of hidden costs: coordinating with the group buy organizer on pricing and verification (was the right amount sent?); managing and accounting for payments received from multiple simultaneous group buys; dealing with chargebacks (there will _always_ be chargebacks), which now could potentially affect entirely unrelated buys if an account is frozen. This begins to look more and more like a full-time job and business, as opposed to a simple shell corp.

I don't mean to be a naysayer, but the problems above aren't solved for in a weekend, but rather with serious investment by someone committed to it. That's not to say it couldn't happen, but it's not going to happen overnight, and I personally doubt its worth.

In this situation, the Corporation would assume ALL tax liability for ALL GBs run through it.  Neither the "owners" not the GB organizers would have to worry about taxes, but someone would have to pay the Corporate tax liability if there was one which again, ideally should be zero.  If there is, you could have an escrow account that could also pay any taxes that might end up due at the end of year and if there isn't any, you could just keep the money there for further years or for surprise fees as you mentioned.

For simplification purposes, the GB organizer could also allow all payments to be received directly by the Corporation rather than by the individual.  You could also have the outstanding invoices paid by someone who is hired and NOT someone directly involved with the GB or even an owner, as here at my firm we have plenty of people who go to businesses and pay their outstanding invoices for them, which would prevent theft and also put someone else on the hook if there are problems but the most important part of that would be that the person on the hook would have liability insurance that you could file a claim with.

The bookkeeping side could get complicated but that is the reason I recommended hiring someone to reconcile the books on a regular basis, preferably monthly.  This would probably be the hardest part, as this person would have to have information from all the people running GBs through the Corporation with which to reconcile things and hopefully zero out.  This would hold the organizers accountable though, as they would need to be in contact with the bookkeeper and would need to be relaying the information to that person on a regular basis.  That all said, I don't see how this would be much more work than it already is, because the GB organizers should be keeping the orders, chargebacks, pricing, invoicing, and everything else straight anyways to ensure everything is done right.

I understand that this is a complicated problem that has many moving parts to it, but working together to try and solve the problem whether it takes a week or months seems like it would be worth, especially since all GBs ran through the company may be able to receive discounts as discussed in the SP Rep thread.

[MaNiFeX]

How the F does anyone plan to enforce all this?

If you read the OP, you would see where I stated 'If the organizer becomes unresponsive, the participants will be advised to open a paypal dispute'


This absolutely enforces that the organizer wont take off with the money and out of the 180 day dispute window. If at any point the requirements of the GB aren't adhered to,
the organizer risks having his PP account frozen due to the GB disputing.

This is a great idea, but all risk is then on the GB organizer.  If everything is going along as planned, and then the GB organizer gets a bunch of disputes after paying for the product.  It's then the GB organizer stuck without funds and having to pay out. 

Other than that, I think this is the way to go.

[byker]

Hi everyone, the moderation team summarized the feedback from multiple threads and would like some more feedback: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=80867.0

[Belfong]

I have been reading on this new crypto currency called Ethereum. It is currently now number two behind bitcoin. The difference between Ethereum is that on top of being a currency, it has a platform for building projects on top - currently the most popular application is running new crowdsourcing projects. The beauty of this is that if the goal failed, the money is returned to you automatically, there is no third party like Massdrop governing it. Maybe in the future, our GB can use cyber coins
https://www.ethereum.org/crowdsale