Existentional crisis, MX Clear or Topre?

[killyou]

Hi guys

Few days ago I started a topic asking for advice on some cheap 75% boards and which one should I get. Since then most of you worked, eat, slept but I was reading about switches, keyboards and watching youtube videos. I used to own CM Novatouch but decided to sell it to get into the Cherry MX switches and cheap boards supposed to be a testing bed of new layouts and at least give me a little bit of a feeling how different non-"Topre" switches can be. In the mean time I got a cheap board with blue Kailh switches and while they are fairly good and I don't see a big problem with QAQC in regards to the force tolerances they are LOUD AS HELL. When I'm on headphones they are not bothering me much but when I'm in a completely silent room, which is very often because I'm working remotely from my attic it's getting on my nerves. Now I have regrets about selling my Novatouch and I'm thinking of buying a new one again but this time I would do a silencing mod with a rubber mat which would give me I think a perfect sound of all switches in my opinion (in a decent price range at least). I'm only hesitant on one thing, I love how Vortex Poker 3 looks and it might be fun to try it out. However I'm using arrows on a daily basis (terminal, excel and other stuff). Since it would be expensive for me here in Europe, more expensive than Novatouch, I'm afraid to pull the trigger. Is there anyone that had an experience with both MX Clears and Topre switches? I guess I'm used to the deep sound of Topre and it's sound level which is not very disturbing and I don't know how MX Clear in the Pok3r would be in comparison. Also is there anyone using 60% board that uses arrows intensively? Is that something that bothers you or it's easy to get used to? Thanks and sorry for the wall of text.

[digi]

Clears can get fatiguing after extended use unless you have sausage fingers or heavy hands.

[romevi]

Here's my personal experience.

I started the MX journey with a WKL B.face. It was fantastic; I loved everything about it (used Vintage Blacks), but not having the arrows really took a toll after a while. I use the arrows extensively, and having them embedded in an Fn layer still didn't cut it. So I sold it and joined a kustom sale for a 65% board.
In my current setup I have a 55g Realforce at work and 72g Clears at home. The thing about having tactile MX switches is that you really have to modify them to make them decent (at least for me). I have them lubed with gold 72g springs, and that's actually about as close to 55g Topre as I can get (maybe with a bit lighter weight for springs). I love the feel, but, of course, Topre is my preference.

Have yo considered the Leopold FC660m or FC660c? I know a lot of people like those layouts, and they have the arrows as well. You can get them in either MX or Topre.

[Tactile]

Well, clears get stiffer all the way down, which gives them that cushiony feel, and Topre is just the opposite, with the stiffness at the top of the stroke and very little resistance as you go past that.

I don't know what you'd like best but those two switches are quite different, especially if you're a bottom out typist.

[killyou]

Here's my personal experience.

I started the MX journey with a WKL B.face. It was fantastic; I loved everything about it (used Vintage Blacks), but not having the arrows really took a toll after a while. I use the arrows extensively, and having them embedded in an Fn layer still didn't cut it. So I sold it and joined a kustom sale for a 65% board.
In my current setup I have a 55g Realforce at work and 72g Clears at home. The thing about having tactile MX switches is that you really have to modify them to make them decent (at least for me). I have them lubed with gold 72g springs, and that's actually about as close to 55g Topre as I can get (maybe with a bit lighter weight for springs). I love the feel, but, of course, Topre is my preference.

Have yo considered the Leopold FC660m or FC660c? I know a lot of people like those layouts, and they have the arrows as well. You can get them in either MX or Topre.

I did consider it but the price puts me off. It's not that I can't afford it but it's just a mental barrier. It will cost twice as much as Novatouch which I can get for 130$ brand new and sealed (sold my old one for 118$...). In fact I could almost get both Pok3r and Novatouch for the price of Leopold. So the real question here is will I be ever able to recover from Topre and should I even bother considering keyboards without Topre switches. I'm not into the customization as I don't have much time spare on my hands with the kids etc so I prefer to stick to the stock configs except for the keycaps as that's easy or the silencing mod as I already did my research. I already know I'm not very fond of blues so another question is will clears/browns be all right for me. I'm starting to feel that I had a good thing going with the Novatouch and the best move would be the silencing mod and PBT keycaps.

Well, clears get stiffer all the way down, which gives them that cushiony feel, and Topre is just the opposite, with the stiffness at the top of the stroke and very little resistance as you go past that.

I don't know what you'd like best but those two switches are quite different, especially if you're a bottom out typist.

Yeah, I do bottom out on every keyboard. I'm typing on blue right now and I am going all the way down. I'm not writing at full speed when I focus on not bottoming down.

[davkol]

MX Clear springs are different though. It's a bit like if you had a short-throw medium-force tactile switch (similar to rubber dome) on top of a stiff linear switch. Some people hate it, but I find it awesome.

If you want to bottom out at all costs (which boggles my mind), then make ergo clears or go with Zealio/MOD switches... or Alps.

[killyou]

If you want to bottom out at all costs (which boggles my mind), then make ergo clears or go with Zealio/MOD switches... or Alps.

It's not something I'm thinking about. It's just what I'm used to for so many reasons, mostly crappy keyboards used throughout the years.

[davkol]

You _can_ adjust. However, you may not _want_ to.

[romevi]

Where do you see the Novatouch? They've been discontinued, but I know there's a GB for an alu case.

[killyou]

Where do you see the Novatouch? They've been discontinued, but I know there's a GB for an alu case.

They were indeed discontinued but some of the shop still have them on stock so you will have to look in your vicinity or e-stores.

[zslane]

If you don't mind the space it takes up, I just don't see how you can go wrong with a silenced NovaTouch. It wins in so many categories.

[khakis1111]

So I currently have FC660C and Vortex Core (MX Clears) because I think they are pretty compatible-- at least for me. I love having a lighter switch (45g Topre) and when I feel bored, I would use MX Clears. If I had to choose one, I'd obviously choose FC660C because it's my baby.

I had that "crisis" not too long ago, but I couldn't let go of Topre because of its unique sound. And MX Clear shouldn't really tire out your fingers unless you want to bottom out with every stroke. Sound-wise (and aesthetically too, for me) you can't beat Topre... at least not when the other switch you have in mind is Cherry MX Clears.

I keep my headphone on when I type on Clears.

[Joey Quinn]

I regularly switch between stock MX clears, lightly lubed 55g topre, and lubed 78g gat clears.

If you're deciding between clears and Topre you need to figure out how you like the board to feel because the 2 aren't very similar. The clears are cushiony due to the weight (as long as you don't bottom out) but could be fatiguing if you are used to a lighter switch, that being said clears really aren't that heavy. Topre on the other hand forces you bottom out so it could be jarring to your fingers if you're a heavy typist but if you don't bash the keys Topre is incredibly comfy to use for extended periods.

For average daily typing MX clears and Topre will both work just fine but I find myself choosing either my 78g gat clear or Topre board for typing longer papers.

[tp4tissue]

mx clear is exhausting.

clear in general is over rated..

It was SPECIAL simply because it was less common (at the time)

Just like when REDS were uncommon,  and now that everyone has reds, everyone's saying how UNCOOL they are now..

It's all a fad..


In the end.. the ERGODOX reigns supreme.. /Best keyboard

[Halverson]

mx clear is exhausting.

clear in general is over rated..

It was SPECIAL simply because it was less common (at the time)

Just like when REDS were uncommon,  and now that everyone has reds, everyone's saying how UNCOOL they are now..

It's all a fad..


In the end.. the ERGODOX reigns supreme.. /Best keyboard

What if ergodox had topre

[daerid]

It really is the best way.

[falkentyne]

Clears can get fatiguing after extended use unless you have sausage fingers or heavy hands.

Some people find clears too light and absolutely HAVE to go with tactile greys.
Tactile greys and clears are identical except greys have a 125g bottom out force.  Clears I can handle.  tactile greys do it for me, however.  I mean they violate my virginity.

[Puddsy]

I'd personally put Clears over Topre.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

mx clear is exhausting.

clear in general is over rated..

Funny, a colleague has my G80-3000LQCDE — he's not a keyboard enthusiast, but he seems perfectly content with clears. I guess he's had that keyboard on his desk at work several years now.

When I first tried clears, I guess I instinctively bottomed out on the keys, and yes that gets tiring fast. However, I found that I soon got used to letting go of the key as the force started to increase, and after that it wasn't tiring at all. The one thing I never got used to was when stabbing a key with a finger (not typing, just whacking some key) you do then find the key unexpectedly heavy. I still bottom out every other switch, but not clears — I just got used to them fairly quickly.

It wasn't the clears that bothered me, but the shoddy construction. If I did ever replace my work keyboard, I've certainly considered going back to clears again (currently MX red, and I'm wondering if the firmware on that Poker II keyboard is on the blink as something keeps behaving as though ctrl was held for a single keystroke).

Clears or Topre though — curious … I'd have to spend time with both again to choose that one.

[digi]

I'd personally put Clears over Topre.

I'm going to have to disregard everything you say from here on out...sorry bud.

[Dyaems]

What if ergodox had topre

you can buy a novatouch first and wait for this thread to happen haha

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84985.0

[OfTheWild]

mx clear is exhausting.

Clears can get fatiguing after extended use unless you have sausage fingers or heavy hands.

I found the solution to that...


You'd be surprised though, its hardly noticeable.

[consolelog]

I have a pok3r with clears at work, and a novatouch at home. Clears feel more exciting and snappier, while the novatouch definitely sounds better. They're both pretty different, yet I don't think you could go wrong with either.

As far as arrow keys go, I use them all the time but haven't had any issues with the pok3r. I did play around with the mapping though. Changed:
left ctrl -> fn
caps lock -> left ctrl
arrow keys -> hjkl (vim)

[Puddsy]

I'd personally put Clears over Topre.

I'm going to have to disregard everything you say from here on out...sorry bud.

You didn't already?

I also have a 40g Topre board, so YMMV. I haven't used any other weight for an extended period of time.

[happylacquer]

Clears can get fatiguing after extended use unless you have sausage fingers or heavy hands.

 

This worry is pretty much the only thing that has kept me from ordering clears and cracking open the Advantage. I have been wondering about green or black too.

I usually don't like tactile but they are perfect on the Advantage layout. Do think I could handle a slightly heavier switch.

[OfTheWild]

Clears can get fatiguing after extended use unless you have sausage fingers or heavy hands.

 

This worry is pretty much the only thing that has kept me from ordering clears and cracking open the Advantage. I have been wondering about green or black too.

I usually don't like tactile but they are perfect on the Advantage layout. Do think I could handle a slightly heavier switch.

Simple solution would be to swap out the springs in them if you find they're too heavy. If you've got a fresh board you can put holtite sockets in, then its an even easier endeavor.

[digi]

I'd personally put Clears over Topre.

I'm going to have to disregard everything you say from here on out...sorry bud.

You didn't already?

I also have a 40g Topre board, so YMMV. I haven't used any other weight for an extended period of time.

I do listen to you, I'm here for you! Lean on me!

How do you have a 40g board?? Step your game up to 55g if you like Clears breh.

[Puddsy]

I'd personally put Clears over Topre.

I'm going to have to disregard everything you say from here on out...sorry bud.

You didn't already?

I also have a 40g Topre board, so YMMV. I haven't used any other weight for an extended period of time.

I do listen to you, I'm here for you! Lean on me!

How do you have a 40g board?? Step your game up to 55g if you like Clears breh.

My RF is really three RFs stuck together. I thought it was 45g, but apparently when it was modded, it was to 40g uniform. Checked it with a 40g weight my school had in their shop. Very odd board indeed.

[OfTheWild]

Was there a 40g dome? or do you think they're 45g with some wear and sag?

[Puddsy]

Was there a 40g dome? or do you think they're 45g with some wear and sag?

Topre switches have +- 5g of consistency. Take a few 45g boards, take all the "bad" domes out, put them all together, and presto, a 40g board.

[alienman82]

removed.

[need]

mx brown.  not joking either.

But they are audibly scratchy...

[alienman82]

removed.

[Puddsy]

mx brown.  not joking either.

They're the worst tho

[alienman82]

removed.

[ander]

In the mean time I got a cheap board with blue Kailh switches and while they are fairly good and I don't see a big problem with QAQC in regards to the force tolerances they are LOUD AS HELL...

This may be obvious, but have you tried adding O-rings to your stems?:





They're quite cheap and can make a big sound difference. They shorten the switches's travel slightly, but most people don't find that a showstopper.

[killyou]

In the mean time I got a cheap board with blue Kailh switches and while they are fairly good and I don't see a big problem with QAQC in regards to the force tolerances they are LOUD AS HELL...

This may be obvious, but have you tried adding O-rings to your stems?:

Show Image

They're quite cheap and can make a big sound difference. They shorten the switches's travel slightly, but most people don't find that a showstopper.

Yeah I tried. It was the click that was bothering me, not the bottoming out. Also this board had a terrible ping that could be heard after every key press, not only the big ones with stabilizers. I ended up getting rid of the board and I'm trying to get Vortex Pok3r with MX Clears and PBT keycaps but I guess they aren't being sold anywhere at the moment. Just my luck.

[OfTheWild]

You can buy a 60% with clears pretty much daily on /r/mechmarket

[valniro]

Yeah I tried. It was the click that was bothering me, not the bottoming out. Also this board had a terrible ping that could be heard after every key press, not only the big ones with stabilizers. I ended up getting rid of the board and I'm trying to get Vortex Pok3r with MX Clears and PBT keycaps but I guess they aren't being sold anywhere at the moment. Just my luck.

During the last month I went through the same pain you're going through now.
I started with a CM Novatouch (ISO), then I took a bunch of MX keyboards cause I wanted to try the difference and then... I ended up buying another CM Novatouch (ANSI).
The truth is that there's just no MX that can give you the same feeling of Topre switches, they're just different.
Now I just bought a set of Soft-Landing Pads from EK and as soon as they'll get into my mailbox I'll go for the silencing mod.
End of my pain

[rxc92]

Clears can get fatiguing after extended use unless you have sausage fingers or heavy hands.

 
 
Ah, personally I would disagree! I have quite the normal hands, and my clears bring me just as much fatigue as 45g Topre domes did; hours of use are no issue. However, Green switches were really tiring even after typing for just a few minutes.

[Keycap]

mx brown.  not joking either.

But they are audibly scratchy...

that seems to be BS, since the ones I have aren't scratchy especially not audibly.... (1up to your dots)

Can vouch, I got a QFR in mid 2016 with Browns just as a curiosity and I'm still surprised as to how smooth they are. Maybe I got an extraordinarily good batch, who knows. I highly doubt it though, as one of the switches on the board had a bad spring that would sorta buckle when you got close to bottoming out. Had to replace that manually.

And I'm likely to get shunned to death by saying this, but IMO Browns > Clears. They just never grew on me. I tried to like them, modded them several times, and still I don't like them. It's not like I have wimpy fingers, I tend to prefer IBM Buckling Springs and MX Blacks for their weighting. It's just that I hate the very distinct bump that MX Clears make. It's almost to a level of which it's distracting, and I can't say that about MX Browns.

[OfTheWild]

It's just that I hate the very distinct bump that MX Clears make. It's almost to a level of which it's distracting, and I can't say that about MX Browns.

I think that might be the reason people dont like browns... the tactile bump is so understated that it feels crunchy rather than tactile.

I personally dont mind browns. I have a fullsize ducky with browns thats actually great to type on for long periods of time.

[zslane]

I think that might be the reason people dont like browns... the tactile bump is so understated that it feels crunchy rather than tactile.

That's kinda how I feel about them. I figure, if you're gonna bother with tactile switches then they should really pop. That's why I prefer Topre; they have that satisfying pop, combined with super smooth slider action. You can't mistake them for malfunctioning linears like you can with MX browns.

[Keycap]

It's just that I hate the very distinct bump that MX Clears make. It's almost to a level of which it's distracting, and I can't say that about MX Browns.

I think that might be the reason people dont like browns... the tactile bump is so understated that it feels crunchy rather than tactile.

I personally dont mind browns. I have a fullsize ducky with browns thats actually great to type on for long periods of time.

MX Browns start to make a lot more sense for long-term touch typing. I soon learned that MX Clears weren't for me when I tried touch typing with them. They felt great at a first glance with a switch tester, but once I started typing on a board full of them with all of my fingers.. yeah, no. MX Browns initially felt awful on the switch tester, but when I got a board full of them, they just felt a whole lot better for typing.

[OfTheWild]

It's just that I hate the very distinct bump that MX Clears make. It's almost to a level of which it's distracting, and I can't say that about MX Browns.

I think that might be the reason people dont like browns... the tactile bump is so understated that it feels crunchy rather than tactile.

I personally dont mind browns. I have a fullsize ducky with browns thats actually great to type on for long periods of time.

MX Browns start to make a lot more sense for long-term touch typing. I soon learned that MX Clears weren't for me when I tried touch typing with them. They felt great at a first glance with a switch tester, but once I started typing on a board full of them with all of my fingers.. yeah, no. MX Browns initially felt awful on the switch tester, but when I got a board full of them, they just felt a whole lot better for typing.

This is a very true statement for a lot of switches actually. I was really amazed at how different it is typing a few paragraphs on a certain switch type vs. scrutinizing its compression in a switch tester environment. Just reinforces the need to get out there and go to meets and try peoples stuff.