A More Gentle Kind of Clicky?

[bkrownd]

  Noob question.  I enjoy the FEEL of clicky switches better than the "tactile" switches I've tried, but I don't really enjoy the audible volume of the clickers.  I've only tried a few of the most common clicky switches, and they're all too loud IMO.  Are there any clickies that are a lot more subtle in volume? Or, does anyone modify their click-bar switches to reduce the click loudness?

 

[Pylon]

What tactiles have you tried?

[bkrownd]

What tactiles have you tried?

My current boards have Cherry and Gateron browns, plus the similar orange tactile switches that Akko uses.  I'm fine with all of those, but not enthusiastic.  I don't really want a bigger "tactile bump", but instead I'd like to have the subtle sharp impulse that comes from the click mechanism in the click switches.

I got tester pack of Gateron and Kailh switches from Glorious.  I don't remember exactly which switches are in the pack, but I didn't like the "stronger" tactiles any more than browns.  I do prefer the feel of the clickers, but they are all too loud. 

[Leslieann]

I enjoy the FEEL of clicky switches better than the "tactile" switches I've tried, but I don't really enjoy the audible volume of the clickers. 

This has sort of been my problem.
Tactiles are just missing something, sound, feel, dunno, but they never are as nice as clickys, but I can't stand the noise of clickeys.

There are some options but so you know, they are either difficult or expensive and can easily become a rabbit hole of experimentation and wallet abuse.
Box switches (Jades?), because the clicker is a separate part you can use different click springs and click spring lube to alter the click feel and sound.
Zeal 62g Zealios These are tactiles, but they aren't the same tactiles you're used to. They have a harsher bump than most others and offer a different sound and feel.
Zeal 62g Zilents, yes, I know this sounds completely opposite as they're silent but somehow actually manage to bring something. I didn't like that total silence at first but I grew to love it.
The last one is a wildcard and an utter nightmare, hand-wired Jailhouse Blues. When done right these still retain the click sound, but only about half volume. Think of it as a half-click. As I said though, these are an utter nightmare to make. You will need to hand wire each stem, trim springs, lube and then make sure each one functions smoothly before putting them back. Believe it or not, if you remove a bit more click noise they feel remarkably similar to 62g Zealios.

Just remember, Zeals are rated by spring but the stem also changes depending on spring.


Edit: just saw your second post, take a look at 62g Zealios, it sounds like what you're after.

[kajahtaa]

Royals are fun but still loud and possibly dangerous for ABS.

Maybe hberoinbob v2.2 stems in Boba housings. I believe someone has stock of the pre-silent stems.

[Pylon]

Maybe try something with a very sharp tactile bump? Though the ones I know of are all frankenswitches.

I've used MX Clear stems in hbheroinbob's Boba housings and clear-slotted tops, and they have a fairly high degree of tactility that's also very sharp, even with a 90g spring. I haven't tried it with any lower spring weights though, and quite possibly has return issues at lower weights.

[mustardgreens]

Have you tried jailhouse blues?

[bkrownd]

Maybe try something with a very sharp tactile bump?

 
  But...that doesn't click.  I don't want a change in the force curve.  I want the click feedback added to what I already have - just not as loud. 
   

[Pylon]

In that case you can experiment with lubing clickjacket switches to reduce sound.  I just tried lubing a Gat Blue I had sitting around - lubing the rails and stem cams seems to have reduced sound a bit without eliminating the click. Putting lube between the clickjacket and the stem completely killed the click. Play around a bit.

I also tried putting some lube where the clickbar hits the housing on a Box Navy. That didn't seem to do anything. In theory, if you can put some rubber or other damping material on the tiny nub where the clickbar hits the housing you could make a much quieter Box Navy with the same tactility.

[tp4tissue]

ERGODOX ,  problem Solved

[bkrownd]

In that case you can experiment with lubing clickjacket switches to reduce sound.  I just tried lubing a Gat Blue I had sitting around - lubing the rails and stem cams seems to have reduced sound a bit without eliminating the click. Putting lube between the clickjacket and the stem completely killed the click. Play around a bit.

I also tried putting some lube where the clickbar hits the housing on a Box Navy. That didn't seem to do anything. In theory, if you can put some rubber or other damping material on the tiny nub where the clickbar hits the housing you could make a much quieter Box Navy with the same tactility.

Wouldn't the lube or anything that "dampens" the clickbar or click-jacket alter the clicking from the desired sharp click impulse to a far less satisfying duller thud?

[Leslieann]

Wouldn't the lube or anything that "dampens" the clickbar or click-jacket alter the clicking from the desired sharp click impulse to a far less satisfying duller thud?

And this is why I said it's a rabbit hole.
You end up swapping springs and lubes trying to find that perfect switch and just when you think you're close, a new switch or combo comes out or what you need goes out of stock.

Hand wired Jailhouse Blues will do what you want, a quieter click, but it's by far the most tedious switch you will ever work with and it does raise the actuation point to about 1.2-1.3mm rather than the normal 2mm. If you have access to a resin printer you might be able to get normal travel and a quieter click, but that would be tricky. Your other option is box switches and click bar switches because you can tune the click independent of the stem. While you have an easier tuning path than Jailhouse Blues (only one spring), you're going to spend a LOT of time changing springs and lube to find the right combo.

I was after the same thing you were and basically came to the conclusion the click was just not woirth the hassle for me and decided to just focus on feel, which was almost just as frustrating. Which is why I recommended the choices I did before. My hand wired Jailhouse Blues are still one of my all time favorites, but if I had to go through that hassle for every keyboard I own I think I'd go insane. You better either have hot swap or a universal plate allowing access to the internals because some of them will have problems, and that goes for hand wired, J-spacers, O-rings, or any other method you use (J-spacers and o-ring sound and feels feel more like scissor switches while hand wired feels more like 62g Zeals but with a nice gentle click). All of these have a risk of something dragging on the housing, I had one develop drag after a few days of use, so even pre-testing will not ensure it all works. Then you have spring tuning on top of everything else.

[HungerMechanic]

I've been dreaming about a switch that clicks likes Blues, even Gaote or OUTEMU Blues, but is quiet.

Jailhouse Blues are a solution that has long been written about.

I wish there was a tactile that was basically a silent click, and had a dampened bottom-out like Silent Sky / U4 / Silent Alpaca switches.

[jacobolus]

At least try Blue Alps and SMK clicky switches,
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Blue
https://deskthority.net/wiki/SMK_second_generation

Hard to tell quite what you’ll like unless you try a bunch of stuff.

Note that the keyboard itself (pcb vs. plate mount, case material, how much damping material you stuff inside, ...) has a huge effect on the sound. Cherry clicky switches make hardly any sound outside a keyboard; that hollow plastic box is doing most of the amplification. Keycap material and thickness also makes a difference.

I've only tried a few of the most common clicky switches

If you can get more specific people will have a better idea. You mean MX blue?

[Leslieann]

Alps are great, but can you get a 60,65, 75% or TKL, how about type-C or some nice modern caps, or how about RGB or any sort of backlighting for that matter.

Boards have come a long, long way in the last few years making pretty much anything Alps look as old as they are. Worse still have you priced a board with good blue switches? It only makes it that much harder of a pill to swallow.

[suicidal_orange]

Matias Quiet Click are Alps(ish) and available in compact form factors, PBT keycaps have been done for a year and planned for ... three(?) so should be released soon.  Get white ones and dye to your colour of choice.

No good if you insist on an overrated connector with no real benefit (unless you have kids or animals and allow them to tug the cable or insist on plugging it in while drunk and incapable or turning the connector over...)  You'll still need a Christmas tree to light your room though, if you think distractions make you play better

[bkrownd]

If you can get more specific people will have a better idea. You mean MX blue?

(aside from antique keyboards)  Gateron blue and green, and Kailh speed bronze and box white.  I haven't experienced anything particularly exotic.  I need MX compatible since I've bought a couple GMMK boards and some MX keycap sets. 

[Leslieann]

Matias Quiet Click are Alps(ish) and available in compact form factors, PBT keycaps have been done for a year and planned for ... three(?) so should be released soon.  Get white ones and dye to your colour of choice.

No good if you insist on an overrated connector with no real benefit (unless you have kids or animals and allow them to tug the cable or insist on plugging it in while drunk and incapable or turning the connector over...)  You'll still need a Christmas tree to light your room though, if you think distractions make you play better

I have Matias switches in my KBP80, I want to like them but frankly they don't hold a candle to actual Alps especially if they're in a keyboard not built by Matias who seems to be the only one who can make them work remotely right. Even in a Matias built board they have massive spring ping and have you looked at Matias boards? Pass.

Dying keycaps, GMK better watch out!

Type-C is a mangled standard but it's still the future of USB and a stronger connector than micro-b. It's not about flipping a connector it's about long term reliability and standards.

As for lights, many obviously like them.

[bkrownd]

Haven't found anything that seems to fit what I'm envisioning, so I guess I'll get some "blue" and maybe kailh gold switches and open them up to try to fiddle with them to see if I can get a satisfactory setup.

[bkrownd]

Haven't found anything that seems to fit what I'm envisioning, so I guess I'll get some "blue" and maybe kailh gold switches and open them up to try to fiddle with them to see if I can get a satisfactory setup.

  I ordered some Kailh speed bronze and pro pale green to work on initially.  I like the sharp impulse feel of the clickbar better, even though I don't like the fact that it clicks twice per actuation. 

  Does the $$$ Krytox lube really make sense for beginners, or is some kind of Super Lube going to be just fine? 

[Leslieann]

Does the $$$ Krytox lube really make sense for beginners, or is some kind of Super Lube going to be just fine?

Cheap way to lube (all available on Amazon):
For metal to plastic (stabs bars and springs) - Super lube Dielectric grease
For plastic on plastic (stabs and switches) - Finish Line Extreme Flouro with PTFE

The Finish Line is actually a little thinner than 205 and works great with stock springs but as you get down to about 40-45g for tactile/clicky switches and 35g linear switches they may need some break in. Is it exactly the same formula, probably not exact, but quite close and it's not like this is a high heat, high stress, super tough environment. Krytox is insane overkill for such use, if you were going to the moon or doing Formula 1 racing cost or diving the Mariana trench, sure, but this is a keyboard, any decent lube that is plastic compatible is fine so long as it's the right viscosity.

As you go lower on springs and higher on tactility viscosity becomes more and more of a problem, particularly on hot swap boards with tight tolerance plates. Grease tends to feel smoother but can feel sluggish, at least until broken in, lighter lube will feel snapper, especially from the start, but not as smooth. Stock switches use a grease, you really only want the lighter oil on really light springs. For that I use Super Lube Multi-Purpose Synthetic oil with Syncolon (PTFE),  it's similar to the Krytox oil (103 or 105?). This will come in a pen dispenser, the dielectric grease in a tube and the Flouro comes in a syringe.

Don't forget fabric bandages for bandaid modding your stabs.

[bkrownd]

Is the right Super Lube the 92003 silicone dielectric grease, or a different one?  I know it's supposed to have the Syncolon/PTFE, which that one does

[Leslieann]

I used 91003, I think the only difference is 92003 adds PTFE, which isn't really that important for this.
I'd use either.

[bkrownd]

  I received some Kailh Speed Bronze and Pro Light Green.  Interestingly the Pro Light Green (click jacket) sounds very quiet when I just hold it in my hand or press it resting on the counter, which seemed promising.  However, when I mount and keycap it it suddenly becomes the loudest of the 5 clickies I have, with a resonant higher pitched sound than the Blues.  Seems like it's really resonating the keycap strongly.

  I will try some lube and films when I get them. 
 

[Leslieann]

However, when I mount and keycap it it suddenly becomes the loudest of the 5 clickies I have, with a resonant higher pitched sound than the Blues.  Seems like it's really resonating the keycap strongly.

Always test with caps and a plate.
Clickies are particularly bad for this. Not just the cap changes it but also your finger is dampening the housing.

[bkrownd]

  I finally got all my lubes and lube station in.  I got some deskeys films which were too thick for the Kailh switches, so I'll need to get thinner films.  I only fiddled with the speed bronze and pro light green switches last night - I didn't bother trying the flims or any lube with the random tester pack switches or with glorious panda switches yet.

  The pro light green have an annoying level of rattle to me, and some much more so than others.  Lube helped dampen the rattley sound a bit but the click/sound is still inconsistent.  I'll continue to work on that later...

  So I intend to install the speed bronze set in my second GMMK, but first I'll get some thinner films to try.  And well...they're still louder than I'd like. but it's time to put them into the GMMK and find out how I feel about it with this setup fully assembled. 

[HungerMechanic]

After thinking about this a bit more, you might want to follow up on Leslieann's earlier suggestions.

Zilent 62 G is a top-mounted tactile switch. You have to clear the tactile barrier at the top, and then it slams down.

So it's somewhat comparable to a clicky, or a very tactile rubber-dome.

It won't make a horrible noise because of the dampeners, which also reduce the slam upon hitting bottom.

I have an entire keyboard full of these. The only thing you would want to do is lube the springs, because these Gateron springs are noisy. The rest of the switch doesn't really need lube, although it may benefit from it. This process might be easier with the regular Zilent switches and not the Aqua Zilent switches, as the earlier batches of those didn't cope well with being taken apart [mine are stock].

Yes, I have an entire Aqua Zilent 62 G Leopold behind me as I type, and it's closer to a clicky switch than it is to MX Brown. Less of that 'relaxed' vague actuation of MX Brown, more of a definite two-step process. [I wonder how Kangaroo and Blueberry switches compare, they seem similar.]

If that all sounds too expensive for you, you can try BOX Silent Browns, but they're just kinda like cheaper Zealios. It would have been a good idea to order a handful of Zilent samples during the Black Friday sale, as you could compare them with your clicky and tactile switches.

[bkrownd]

Over time I'll be able to expand my stockpile of switches and try all these things, and I could certainly stand to expand my experience of different switches so I may indeed try those soon.  I don't think the keycap slapping is really what I'm after.  My browns and brown clones already do plenty of that. 

The thing I like about a clicky switch is the impulse/shockwave that the click mechanism generates at the actuation, which is felt through the keycap and provides a subtle confirmation.  (not part of the force curve)  The audible sound is very secondary.  I was originally hoping someone had a suggestion about a clicky switch that has a significantly quieter audible component, but there don't seem to be any like that.

Since I came out of the era of people chattering away on Selectric typewriters and the roar of impact printers I have no personal aversion to keyboard sounds, but these days some ppl can get really touchy about things that invade their bubbles of personal tranquility.
 

[HungerMechanic]

Yes, I'd say there is a gap in the market for a 'quiet click,' and MX manufacturers have not fulfilled it.

[Maledicted]

Is this really so much about the volume of the click as opposed to the pitch? I barely even notice Cherry MX blue anymore in terms of volume. Besides being really rattly, can it really be all that grating besides its high pitch?

I haven't noticed spring ping in my Matias boards. I don't use really old ones often though. I should use one that still has Alps-branded switches for a day or something to compare. I have read that that was a problem previously with thin contact leaves. I don't know when it was supposed to have been resolved for sure. Maybe I have just been really lucky.

I have some second generation SMK blues that I have used for a few weeks straight at work. I don't think they're as refined as SKCM or Matias switches, and are higher-pitched (at least in the board I have). I like them, but OP sounds like they may not.

You can try frankenswitching Matias dampened sliders with click leaves, like Chyros did in an old Youtube video. This significantly reduces volume and lowers its pitch. I have a board configured entirely like this. I like it, but I end up missing the volume and the firm feeling when I bottom out. The switches are cheap as all hell, and easy to mod without soldering given the time. It would sure be nice if people actually made some nice thick Alps caps to help this further.

I think the only reason I would bother to put SKCM blues in a modern board is for something a little more portable. The bizarre ancient board they're already in is half of the charm, and I'll take whatever interface it already has (with a converter, if necessary) over USB type c. Way more robust. I always love the opportunity to replace a ps/2 cable with a 5-pin DIN socket.

P.S. - quiet clickies are heresy.

[bkrownd]

Is this really so much about the volume of the click as opposed to the pitch?

  Well, for me it's about the sound not really being the main point of the click, coupled with being aware that some people are hypersensitive to such sounds these days.  Pitch seems like a fine tuning level adjustment, though it can certainly effect the perception of volume to some extent.

  Before I consider any modding - if i can think of a useful mod - I first need to concentrate on making a good regular clicky keyboard with the parts I have.  Then I can be more informed about where I might go from there. 

  Will take a look for the youtube video you're talking about.   

[Leslieann]

Yes, I have an entire Aqua Zilent 62 G Leopold behind me as I type, and it's closer to a clicky switch than it is to MX Brown. Less of that 'relaxed' vague actuation of MX Brown, more of a definite two-step process.

Side by side 62g Zeals feel a little more tactile than Gateron Blues, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same profile.

The thing I like about a clicky switch is the impulse/shockwave that the click mechanism generates at the actuation, which is felt through the keycap and provides a subtle confirmation.

I was after that same thing but you don't need that click to feel tactility, that's a lie that MX switches have led you to believe.

With 39g springs 62g Zeals end up being about as tactile as Box Jades and actually start closing in on Box Navy due to how sharp the bump is. I would go as far as saying it's harsh, it's far from a gentile or even aggressive bump, this is flat out harsh. While typing (fast press) it's closer to Jades but on a slow press they feel closer to Navies, you simply cannot miss that bump.

That said, don't do this. Even with thinner grease than 205 the springs have a really difficult time resetting until fully broken in which will take longer than you think. Stick to a mid to high 40g spring (45-50) with an oil based lube, not a grease unless you like to live dangerously.

[bkrownd]

  I'm not trying to get "tactility".  I'm already satisfied with browns for tactility.  I just want the impulse/tap that comes from the click.  It isn't part of the force curve or tactility.

[yui]

  I'm not trying to get "tactility".  I'm already satisfied with browns for tactility.  I just want the impulse/tap that comes from the click.  It isn't part of the force curve or tactility.

that is part of the tactility, brown's is light and soft, clickies are often much sharper, the click was a by product of the sharp tactile feedback, you seem to want a sharp silent tactile switch quite rare and often expensive. i am more into heavies myself so i will not be able to help you much, just hopped to clarify what peoples try to tell you

[bkrownd]

  Just to be absolutely clear I am NOT talking about tactility or tactile switches.   "Tactility" is the shape of the force curve.  The click impulse is not part of the force curve. 

[Maledicted]

Is this really so much about the volume of the click as opposed to the pitch?

  Well, for me it's about the sound not really being the main point of the click, coupled with being aware that some people are hypersensitive to such sounds these days.  Pitch seems like a fine tuning level adjustment, though it can certainly effect the perception of volume to some extent.

  Before I consider any modding - if i can think of a useful mod - I first need to concentrate on making a good regular clicky keyboard with the parts I have.  Then I can be more informed about where I might go from there.

I work in a school, so I'm able to get a lot of feedback from students and coworkers. It seems to me that people most often tend to dislike clicky keyboards when they are high-pitched. People I have asked can be divided about whether or not they like the sound of a pingy IBM Model F (None have ever said they don't like the feel), Cherry MX blues, Space Invaders, etc. I have yet to hear anyone report not liking both the sound and feel of box jades, Matias clickies, or SKCM of either white or blue variant. They may not be their absolute favorites to type on, but none of them minded hearing them in use.

I can't imagine that can lead to a universal conclusion that literally nobody minds clicky switches so long as the sounds they make are relatively low-pitched, but I can't imagine there are many people out there that will take issue. Luckily for me, most people don't even seem to mind me hammering away on an F107 in the middle of a library.

  Will take a look for the youtube video you're talking about.

Here's the video

[bkrownd]

I finished lubing the speed bronze and installed them in the GMMK.  They feel goooooooooood     Drove my girlfriend nuts with the clickety-clickety right away.  )