My hunt for an uncommon ISO layout mechanical keyboard

[Gaboris]

Hoy all!

I'm making this thread because after three months of hunting I've finally figured out what mechanical keyboard I might pick as my new daily driver and I thought I'll share my experiences and thought process in case someone else sees a fault in them and for others to learn from my cautionary tale.

TL;DR at the end
This is basically just a huge circle if you had already asked someone experienced on the subject.

I work as a full time web developer(from at home) and do some gaming as well so I'm basically typing all day long.

My current keyboard is a cheap Trust GXT 18 witch has worked for me for several years(my standards aren't too high I guess), it actually survived a milk spill (worked after cleaning). But a few months ago it started to actually hinder my work(a lot of keycaps are basically blank and I also need to use it in poor lighting because of my screen glare at times and I'm still poor at blind typing) and I decided that instead of getting an exact replacement I'll invest some money into my job and see if a more premium option can help me improve.


So at the start I made a "simple" list of what I'd need:

1) QWERTZ layout (That's the Hungarian 105 ISO layout, don't ask why we had to switch the Z-Y keys)
2) Simple backlit (I have no use for RGB or any lighting effects, but I don't care if there are any)
3) Full keyboard (The numberpad is actually useful at times)
4) Cherry MX clear or at least brown switchers (I bought a 9xkey sampler to feel all the types)
5) Simple design (I always disliked flashy oversized keyboards that are "meant for gaming" especially if I'm trying to keep at least a professional LOOK in front of my family)

After just a week or two of searching I realized how naive I was. Finding a 105 ISO layout is already limiting my options at retailers and the number of Hungarian ones with mechanical keys is less than a dozen models if we combine all common retailers.
So I stepped outside of Hungary and looked for some "direct manufacturers" in case they offer "custom" keyboards where you can pick the layout.
I guess anyone who's spent some time here already knows what the three most obvious sources I found were and what their problems are.


1) WASD: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/
Now this looks like serious quality.
Full 105 ISO custom layout, free to pick Cherry MX switch, with custom colors on a key to key basis and a row of ISO layouts to pick from... No Hungarian, BUT you can create your OWN template, upload it and they'll create it so you just need to learn how to use InkSpace and create a vector based layout for them to... print and not mold since this only applies to the WASD V2 witch is their non-backlit board and not the CODE... Plus even the cheapest delivery cost would raise the board's price to 150%.


2) DAS: http://www.daskeyboard.com/
Brilliant boards!
They're slick, they have some extra features that I might actually like, from what I've heard people love them, they're pure quality and they actually have a Hungarian retailer, but they don't have an ISO layout and the price even at the retailer is over 200 USD witch is basically the same as the WASD.


3) MAX: http://www.maxkeyboard.com/
Well these aren't really my style.
No 105 ISO layout, customization is limited to switches, LED colors(but on a key to key basis) and even without any delivery it's again 200 USD.
But they DO have actually custom 105 ISO keycap sets in Hungarian! Sooo maybe...


Naturally I've checked out other places as well, but most of them were just a one time look as they were obviously not working for me.
I've kept bouncing between all these options for a few weeks until I realized that in fact my only option is to buy a 105 ISO board of any layout and just change the keys with a keycap set probably from MAX keyboard since I couldn't find any other options.
I've went through pages on reddit, threads over here and other forums, maybe hours of reviews online and at product pages, but I really had no chance of picking anything. Everything had "something off", there was always something I was "looking for" missing, some were not cherry MX compatible, others had switches I had no idea what they were like and every other pitfall a susceptible review junkie like me can fall into.

At one point I got re-directed to Ducky channel's product page(again since it came up a lot in my search) and took a closer look at them.
After just a bit of search it turned out that the basic Ducky ONE ticks all the point on my list(except the QUERTZ layout(, BUT it also turned out that it's actually sold here in Hungary by an "enthusiast(?)" type(they have stuff from basic pc components, through pc modding kits to freaking drones) retailer. Merlin hardware. https://www.merlinhardver.hu/


TL;DR
So after months of running in circles I picked out what I need exactly the way everyone else always says that one should do.

Base board)
Ducky ONE Cherry MX brown (simple & clean design, blue LED with 2 "per key customisable" lighting profiles, sold inside Hungary with German layout)

Keycap set)
Max keyboard 60% (cuts down on price with only needing alphanumeric, backlight compatible, double shot ABS like Ducky, same OEM profile as Ducky)

Extras)
Tai-Hao Red Rubber Keycaps (rubberized WASD and arrow keys, backlight compatible, middle of Tai Hao profile almost identical to OEM)
Glorious PC Gaming Race wrist rest (left wrist huts very often after typing)


After I looked through al the stuff I've already knew(keycap material, molding/printing processes, PS/2 vs USB and all their "features") and learned some more like how different manufacturers have different key profiles(OEM, DCS, DSA, ect.) I double checked everything and I think this setup'll work for me, but I'm really curious if I've missed anything and if in case it's a useful tip for others as well.


P.S.: There were some alternative boards I've found in the end, but they all had problems. For example:
TRUST GXT 880)
It's backlit, is a hungarian layout(but it's 104 keys and is missing a dedicated "Í" key), it has "GXT white" switches witch I've never heard of nor can I find any info on them, cheap as dist compared to anything else so far

Cherry MX Board 6.0)
Has a built in wrist rest, and looks solid, no idea what the key profile is so might not fit OEM, lacks per key lighting profile option, costs more then Ducky plus separate wrist rest

[tp4tissue]

they're all going to work fine..  probably go with whichever one works best with your decor.

[Findecanor]

You could also look at the Cherry MX-3000 (G80-3000). It should be available in variants with MX Clear and in Hungarian layout - but I dunno about both.
It is a dated 1980's design though and not so price-worthy unless you buy one used.
The black variant has keys that are slick and the grey one has keys that are lasered and look cheap but are PBT.

I own a black one with Clears that I got on German eBay for a good price, five-odd years ago. It came in German layout, but I modified that. Replacement keycaps will not always fit the space bar or the Caps Lock key.

[Gaboris]

they're all going to work fine..  probably go with whichever one works best with your decor.

Yeah, I guess that's the main reason why I kept hunting for something "clean" like the Ducky ONE like a rabid hound.

You could also look at the Cherry MX-3000 (G80-3000). It should be available in variants with MX Clear and in Hungarian layout - but I dunno about both.
It is a dated 1980's design though and not so price-worthy unless you buy one used.
The black variant has keys that are slick and the grey one has keys that are lasered and look cheap but are PBT.

I own a black one with Clears that I got on German eBay for a good price, five-odd years ago. It came in German layout, but I modified that. Replacement keycaps will not always fit the space bar or the Caps Lock key.

Well this board is brilliant just by looking at the design. I loved these old school boards that were past the rough "we have no idea how this is supposed to look" and just before the "YO kidz! Look at how COOL we are!" nonsense.
A few years ago I would've jumped at this if I had the money, but right now I'm keen on checking out a more feature rich option. Though I'll be sure to keep it in mind in case I'll need a second board for daytime use so thanks a lot.

[My_Thoughts]

Coolermaster might be an option in browns

http://eu.coolermaster.com/uk/product/Lines/keyboards/

[Findecanor]

BTW, you might be able to find a Ducky with Clears on the second-hand market. They have made keyboards with that switch in the past, but not many, so your chance may be slim.

[Gaboris]

Coolermaster might be an option in browns

http://eu.coolermaster.com/uk/product/Lines/keyboards/

Oh yeah, those were also planned at one point. They're pretty good, but the ones that would fit my bill are at the same price as the Ducky and these are harder to come by in Hungary.
Still thanks for the tip.

BTW, you might be able to find a Ducky with Clears on the second-hand market. They have made keyboards with that switch in the past, but not many, so your chance may be slim.

Hmmm, that's a good idea, but after looking up some more stuff it might be better to just stick with the lighter browns since even my current rubber dome keys get my fingers fatigued and these are just between browns and clears. So just wish me luck that they work out. )



Oh BTW I've read a thread here(https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85062) where iNViSiBiLiTi says that the Max keyboard keycaps are not as durable as one thinks.
Does anyone have any experience with or input on this? Also aren't there any actual double shot(ABS is just fine) keycaps for custom layouts out there? I've been searching for one the past few days...

[My_Thoughts]

Oh BTW I've read a thread here(https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85062) where iNViSiBiLiTi says that the Max keyboard keycaps are not as durable as one thinks.
Does anyone have any experience with or input on this? Also aren't there any actual double shot(ABS is just fine) keycaps for custom layouts out there? I've been searching for one the past few days...

In early 2016 coolermaster released their new mech keyboards with standard bottom row.  However each EU country only had one type of switch.  UK had browns, Germay had reds.  On /r/coolermaster on reddit there was a post that high quality ISO key caps were comming for many different EU countries.  There have been other posts saying these are now available but I have yet to see them  offered anywhere.  Coolermaster might be doing a hungarian pack and if they do it should be available this year.  I have no idea why this all takes 12-18 months to sort out

[nyunyu]

3) MAX: http://www.maxkeyboard.com/
Well these aren't really my style.
No 105 ISO layout, customization is limited to switches, LED colors(but on a key to key basis) and even without any delivery it's again 200 USD.
But they DO have actually custom 105 ISO keycap sets in Hungarian! Sooo maybe...

They are offering hungarian layout since I ordered my custom white-blue set in 2016 march:


I used this set for maybe 3-4 weeks, but was not happy with the poor typing experience, and the noise this thin ABS set makes.
Since then I used thick PBT blanks (and/or OG Cherry doubleshots.)

I contacted at least 10 keycap manufacturers in the last 1.5 years, but I still have no clue, how can I make a proper, high quality hungarian keycap set for myself with the design I LIKE without robbing the bank.
(Sorry Varmilo, I still don't like your design, even if it fits my ~80-85$ budget/set)

[nyunyu]

In early 2016 coolermaster released their new mech keyboards with standard bottom row.  However each EU country only had one type of switch.  UK had browns, Germay had reds.  On /r/coolermaster on reddit there was a post that high quality ISO key caps were comming for many different EU countries.  There have been other posts saying these are now available but I have yet to see them  offered anywhere.  Coolermaster might be doing a hungarian pack and if they do it should be available this year.  I have no idea why this all takes 12-18 months to sort out

CM's hungarian addon kit is already available in the shops for ~8-10€.

CM said ~1 month earlier, that they'll start selling ISO UK layout keyboards bundled with this addon soon.
(Now you can find only ANSI US Masterkeys Pros in hungarian shops.)

[katushkin]

I would go for Ducky to be honest. I've never had any issues with Ducky boards, and they do cater for most ISO layouts in a large variety of switches.

[Gaboris]

Oh BTW I've read a thread here(https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85062) where iNViSiBiLiTi says that the Max keyboard keycaps are not as durable as one thinks.
Does anyone have any experience with or input on this? Also aren't there any actual double shot(ABS is just fine) keycaps for custom layouts out there? I've been searching for one the past few days...

In early 2016 coolermaster released their new mech keyboards with standard bottom row.  However each EU country only had one type of switch.  UK had browns, Germay had reds.  On /r/coolermaster on reddit there was a post that high quality ISO key caps were comming for many different EU countries.  There have been other posts saying these are now available but I have yet to see them  offered anywhere.  Coolermaster might be doing a hungarian pack and if they do it should be available this year.  I have no idea why this all takes 12-18 months to sort out

Show Image

CM's hungarian addon kit is already available in the shops for ~8-10€.

CM said ~1 month earlier, that they'll start selling ISO UK layout keyboards bundled with this addon soon.
(Now you can find only ANSI US Masterkeys Pros in hungarian shops.)

Okay, these add-on keys look really promising thank you for the tip, but where can I look for these? Searching for "hungarian addon kit" even in relations to keyboards didn't bring up any proper links on Google just a bunch of Hungarian mods for games(witch I might take a look at again cuz those are always fun).
Aslo I've looked at this olcso.hu where you got the pic from, but I couldn't fin much yet(the site is a bit messy and hard to navigate).  >_<

3) MAX: http://www.maxkeyboard.com/
Well these aren't really my style.
No 105 ISO layout, customization is limited to switches, LED colors(but on a key to key basis) and even without any delivery it's again 200 USD.
But they DO have actually custom 105 ISO keycap sets in Hungarian! Sooo maybe...

They are offering hungarian layout since I ordered my custom white-blue set in 2016 march:

Show Image

I used this set for maybe 3-4 weeks, but was not happy with the poor typing experience, and the noise this thin ABS set makes.
Since then I used thick PBT blanks (and/or OG Cherry doubleshots.)

I contacted at least 10 keycap manufacturers in the last 1.5 years, but I still have no clue, how can I make a proper, high quality hungarian keycap set for myself with the design I LIKE without robbing the bank.
(Sorry Varmilo, I still don't like your design, even if it fits my ~80-85$ budget/set)

Yeah I know that they make Hungarian ones that's why I brought them up.
What does "poor typing experience" mean? I've always used cheap rubber dome keyboards and I guess those used cheap ABS keycaps as well. I've never had any problem with those so in terms of feel what's the difference between a "ruber dome" and a "Cherry type" keycap if both are made of ABS? Or is there a completely different keycap material only rubber domes use and no-one ever talk about? O_o

I would go for Ducky to be honest. I've never had any issues with Ducky boards, and they do cater for most ISO layouts in a large variety of switches.

Yeah so far I've only heard good things and since I found them at a reasonable price I'm going for those. But I'll have to wait now since the shop I was looking at ran out of stock and I just it'll get new ones in a reasonable time. -_-

[Targa-TV]

I suggest to ask one of Varmilo's reps since they seem to be well prepared in terms of customization and international layouts. They even have Italian layout, I didn't have to provide an .ai file.

You can find them in the vendors section and hit them up with a PM or email (better the email) and ask them if they have a keyboard which can meet your requirements.

Good luck with the quest 

[Gaboris]

I suggest to ask one of Varmilo's reps since they seem to be well prepared in terms of customization and international layouts. They even have Italian layout, I didn't have to provide an .ai file.

You can find them in the vendors section and hit them up with a PM or email (better the email) and ask them if they have a keyboard which can meet your requirements.

Good luck with the quest 

Yeah, nyunyu already mentioned Varmilo and I looked them up at the time, but since I only found their Chinese webpage I gave up on trying to figure out their stock, but now that you've mentioned the vendors section I found some stuff, but still nothing concrete.
I've found some of their boards on a site called "Caps unlocked", but none of them seem backlit so I'll try my luck and see if they can give me some info through mail.

Thanks for the tip.

[Targa-TV]

Keep us updated.

We of the wacky layouts should stick together.

[Gaboris]

Okay, time for some update.

I talked with the Varmilo rep here and she was helpful, but sadly they don't have backlit sets where the letters light up so I can't work with those. Max keyboards it is I guess. Hope their paint is strong enough and it won't wear off in the same time as these cheap rubber dome ones.

I also got some mail.


(Yes the pic is bad. My phone is almost 10 years old, don't bug me.)

So this is my new "Tai-Hao Red Rubber Keycaps" kit that I bought from CandyKeys and although their webpage seems to freak out at times(there are just too many specialized effects to do every single function I guess) I got there in just 2-3 days(from England I guess).

They're basically just a white translucent plastic covered with some (pretty nice) rubber that has the markings cut out. They're not flat like a proper double shot, but the markings are "filled in" so letters like Q and A aren't just holes.
After putting them on my key tester I got a taste of what a keyset profile(Tai-Hao is almost the same as OEM) might be and so far I was pleasantly surprised as it didn't feel off compared to the flat profile of my old keyboards.

One thing to watch out for is that these seem to have some problems with the "standard" as in 1 or 2 got REAL stuck on the MX "stump" and my finger hurt for a good while after getting one of them off the switch.
They include a cap remover, but I'm afraid to use that since it sticks to the rubber and I don't want to tear it right away. It works with the normal plastic caps, but too bad they didn't include a wire tool instead.


The other package had my new red O-rings from AliExpress.
It took a bit longer to deliver, but they arrived this morning and putting them on my keytester was freaking GLORIOUS! I don't even know how can people NOT want these to be pre-installed, but "tastes and slaps(people like different things)" as we say here in Hungary.


But I also got a bit of a bad news.
The hungarian shop that had the Ducky ONE with the Brown switches replied and they're not restocking them anymore so I'm left with either looking for a new shop OR going for their Red switch variant.
From the O-ring testing I've done I think I'll be fine with the Reds after all so I might order it tonight. Wish me luck.

[Gaboris]

Okay so, it's been about two months since I got my baby and sorry I didn't make a post about it right away, but I wanted to try it out for a bit and also I tend to have problems when I have to make big posts/steps/announcements like this and I start procrastinating like crazy... So let's see this compliment sandwich.


Ducky ONE
The good:
Every time I heard someone say "you could kill someone with this" in keyboard reviews I always thought they were just being funny and it just meant that there's more stuff in the casing that made it sturdy, but no. This thing is built like a TANK. It weighs more then all my previous keyboards combined and even then they wouldn't be able to hold up a candle to this one in sturdiness. O_O

The backlit keys are BRILLIANT! I'm seriously afraid I won't be able to live without this function if I ever have to change my boards again. It's actually pretty funny how much I wanted to have the option to set my own lit keys for games and the such, but I only ended up using that function on the first week to try and FORCE myself to test it, but no point. In the end it feels just as useless as all the other lighting effects.

I'm gonna be a bit real here and say a few problems straight:
I didn't have any big revelations because of the mechanical keys. I didn't have any "how could I been so BLIND" thoughts not even for a second. The whole "smoothness", "speed", "low actuation" and other things everyone talks about just doesn't seem to matter to me, but it's still true that the "clacking" of the non-clicky keys is really relaxing if I pay attention to it and if not it doesn't even register so it doesn't bother me.

The board is "high". Basically twice the height of my previous boards and I'm not sure if that's the reason why my left hand keeps getting cramped, but the lack of a proper wrist rest is pretty noticeable even though I bought a nice pad for it it feels a bit stressful to use.

The red keys are nice, they're light and typing on them all day is not a problem (the wrist pain is probably cuz of bad posture), but I really regret not getting the brown version when I had the chance. Typos are constant and resting my fingers on keys easily presses them down without noticing. That tactile bump probably wouldn't stop my finger while typing, but at least I'd have the resistance of that bump to feel the limit while resting.

Also to everyone who plans to get an ISO layout and doesn't already know (like how I didn't) it seems the german(and as such maybe others') layout has different text for Ctrl and the six keys in the "Insert, Delete block" above the arrow keys.

All in all:
This board simply oozes quality. Even though I might not be the best judge of that since all my previous boards were just cheap pieces of plastic with membranes inside I didn't regret the high price and even though I had a few complaints if this does break within a few years I'm not going back to the cheap alternatives.

MAX keyboards ISO keycaps:
Let's be real here. This is(seems to be at least) the only option for anyone outside the US to get a custom uncommon ISO layout that supports backlighting with a reasonable(but still higher) price.
Both Ducky's, MAX's and Tai-Hao's OEM profile is perfect. All the keys align without any fault.

The set was neatly packed and included a wire keycap remover witch was a freaking GODSEND after Ducky's own cheap plastic menace! I was actually playing around with is for a few days just removing and reattaching the caps of my key tester.
One problem seems to be that these caps are a bit tighter on the stems and for a good while I had problems with the bigger keys(space and enter mainly) as those needed an uncomfortably high pressure to fit the whole stem and removing them was like diffusing a bomb since I was so afraid it would rip it off the PCB. It might get better after a few rounds, but I really don't want to do it again for a few years.

The caps are made with a (so called) "special UV printing" method that keeps them intact for longer. So far(2 months of vigorous coding) absolutely no wear can be seen, but I'll make an update when I notice the first peeling.
Even on the highest lighting there is absolutely NO shine through on these black(colored ones seem to have it by design, but ask someone who has them) keys so on-one needs to worry about that, but it's obvious that this print was designed for the "new" full body lighting switches as only the upper half of the legends get any light and the lower parts only have a partial "bleed through" at best.

A few people have claimed that these keys serve a "poor typing experience" witch I think seems to be about how these are all "shiny" and smooth due to UV printing, but I'm not sure and another problematic side effect is that the keys have a different "tint" because of the smooth glossy surface.
Point is that although Ducky's double shot caps DO feel better it's no reason for me to not use my own language's layout, but take this into account when you're thinking about getting them.


So yeah. This was a big investment and it took me a lot of research and compromises to figure out what I need, but all in all I'm happy I made the switch and since my work depends on this it was all worth it.
Thank you all for giving me advice and for having all these great info threads to learn about all the ins and outs of this "lifestyle" and hope it'll keep expanding with more and more options for future members. 

[Gaboris]

Hey, so just in case anyone is interested I thought I'd leave a 1,5 year update on things. 

The Ducky ONE is still standing strong.
A few keys might feel loosened a bit, but those are all the odd formed double ones so it might just be the lack of extra support for those.
The backlight is still a lifesaver, none of them seems to have burnt out or weakened and any form of custom lighting seems completely pointless in the end.

The MAX keyboard keycaps are still just as sharp as they were the day I got them.
Can't even notice any difference between the most and least used keys so so far and I literally use them every day for several hours or even non stop so I'd say if they are still so good after a year it'll take them several more to even just start fading.

The Tai-Hao Red Rubber Keycaps on the other hand are NOT really premium stuff, but they are still usable.
Seems like they held themselves for about a year and after that the rubber started to "crumble". The lettering is still legible, but the inner markings are constantly sliding around or flattening into the gaps and in the case of my right arrow key they actually "broke out" so now it's a literal rectangle, but it's obviously still usable.
My first urge is to just cut out the innards and use the caps like that, but I might just get new ones either the same or a different brand since they were so cheap.

So again, thanks for all the help.
I might not be active in the community, but I'll be sure to leave an update each time something happens just in case someone needs the info.