Author Topic: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]  (Read 5056 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« on: Fri, 22 November 2019, 20:44:01 »
Frag-Box upgrad information.


GAMING:::

IPS:

144hz AND 240hz panels, Faster crystal transition time (lower motion blur)

60hz panels and 120hz panels are significantly more blurry (in motion) vs 144 / 240, it's NOT just the 24hz, the crystals are different.

Very poor contrast ratio. Dark games look bright grey. For example, if you're playing something atmospheric like the new Control, or Doom (2016), upcoming Doom Eternal,   You may want to get something other than IPS.

TN:

Absolute fastest crystal transition time. Faster than the fastest IPS.

Also very poor contrast ratio, identical downfall as IPS.

This is for WINNING at all cost. for people who takes Pro gaming Seriously.


VA:

Slowest of the 3 crystal transition time, 144hz and 240hz available, but it will still have very slight smearing of white grey transitions. 

The 144hz versions w/ ULMB are a bit better and on par with faster IPSes.

the latest Samsung 240hz is an unknown at the moment, not sure it supports ULMB, it's not mentioned in their brochure.

Biggest advantage of VA is Contrast ratio. Image looks DEEP and 3 Dimensional.  On IPS image looks floaty because the black point is too high. Whereas on VA, the blacks actually look black, which adds to scene depth, what's closer and farther away is more obvious on a VA panel.

I wouldn't recommend any NON-Curved VA panels for PC,  because you are quite close to the monitor even on larger 32 inch ones,  the Curve greatly stabilizes the contrast drift problem which VA has.

Samsung has 1500R curve, but even 1800R is enough to take care of the sides drifting.  1500R would allow you to sit even closer than 1800R.


4K / 25x14-16 / 1080p


Competitive games , you have no choice , even with multiple 2080ti your frame / input latency will be higher with 2 cards.  For an All out frag-box, you'd get 1080p or at most 2560x1600/1440 monitors.

For atmospheric casual gaming, 4K is an option.


HDR


Not relevant for gaming, NO game has taken HDR seriously, or mastered their content / color grading to properly utilize HDR.   The HDR standard for gaming is not established, it's a mess, and very little resource is devoted to working with it on part of the studio.


ULMB


ALL types of LCDs have ULMB models.  blacklight strobe, to remove motion blur trails.  These models will however cut the peak brightness roughly in half, but greatly enhances motion clarity.

ULMB is not uniform. The pixels on the whole panel does not transition all at once. whereas the backlight DOES transition uniformly for the whole screen.

THIS MEANS,  they have to tune the backlight strobe timing typically to the Center of the screen. The consequence of which is,  The CENTER of the screen will always have slightly more motion clarity than the Top or Bottom of the screen.  This is still a net benefit, but there are limitations.

ALL LCDs are benefited by ULMB (for gaming). 

For movies, it's better, but movies are only 23.976fps, frame smear and judder somewhat negates the benefit of ULMB.


Brightness:

How many Nits do you need for gaming.  It depends on how bright your room is. 250nit is enough for most indoor situations.  300-500 nits is recommended if you're near a window during the day .

Take into account that LEDs will dim over time. especially when running at maximum brightness. you'll probably lose 30-50 nits in your first year or 2 of use @ maximum setting.

Ports:

For PC , typically displayport / hdmi/ dvi/ vga, doesn't really matter, they'll all work.   But some monitors may have trouble with HDMI input from consoles/ other devices without pixel-format options.



Using TV for PC monitor:

Highly recommend Curved VA TVs in this instance.   

Roku embedded TV models are the most hassle free as far as PC connectivity.

Samsung TVs work with PC, but the software and color engine is not as stable, you can't get color stable output from a samsung TV, it's temperature dynamic.

Sony, works, but UI is meh..

OLED, too blurry for competitive gaming, but for casual play they're great.  it WILL burn in, not a debate.


GAMUT:

Adobe RGB, SRGB, DCI-P3

Games are typically mastered to SRGB,  if you send the same signal to a P3 or Adobe rgb monitor, the colors will look oversaturated.  It's not accurate but some people like it.

Games are not color managed applications, (though this may change in the future if Nvidia actually integrates Reshade),

If you purchase a color probe, and calibrate your monitor, it will correct White point, Grey balance, and Contrast,  it does not offer GAMUT correction adjustment between P3/Srgb/Adobergb.   WAY WAY better than nothing, it's still not accurate, but color balance is greatly improved.




PHOTOSHOP:::

If you want to do PS seriously,  You will need 2 types of monitors, a HIGH END Adobe RGB monitor w/ high bit processing , 10-14bit,    and a middle grade Srgb monitor to Check your work for web-audiences.

The bulk of monitors out in the world are srgb, if you check your work on a high end AdobeRGB monitor, it may not be representative of the output Normal people see. This is especially true for Web.

For Print work, you don't need the second srgb monitor. you'd softproof on the Adobe rgb monitor.

YOU MUST PURCHASE a calibration probe.  Otherwise, everything you do is rubbish.

Colormunki-Display is the best bang for buck colorimeter, 

Datacolor Spyder 5/ spyder X  are slower and less accurate.


PRE-Calibrated Monitors:

Calibrations drift within the first 200-500 hours, the pre-calibration becomes worthless after that time.  The pre-calibration is also only true to 1 specific brightness setting, if you raise or lower the brightness, it's no longer a relevent calibration.   

This has been a way to market monitors, it's beyond meaningless in actual usage. GIMMICK.

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 22 November 2019, 21:37:38 »

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 22 November 2019, 22:48:56 »
Frag-Box upgrad information.


GAMING:::

IPS:

144hz AND 240hz panels, Faster crystal transition time (lower motion blur)

60hz panels and 120hz panels are significantly more blurry (in motion) vs 144 / 240, it's NOT just the 24hz, the crystals are different.

Very poor contrast ratio. Dark games look bright grey. For example, if you're playing something atmospheric like the new Control, or Doom (2016), upcoming Doom Eternal,   You may want to get something other than IPS.

TN:

Absolute fastest crystal transition time. Faster than the fastest IPS.

Also very poor contrast ratio, identical downfall as IPS.

This is for WINNING at all cost. for people who takes Pro gaming Seriously.


VA:

Slowest of the 3 crystal transition time, 144hz and 240hz available, but it will still have very slight smearing of white grey transitions. 

The 144hz versions w/ ULMB are a bit better and on par with faster IPSes.

the latest Samsung 240hz is an unknown at the moment, not sure it supports ULMB, it's not mentioned in their brochure.

Biggest advantage of VA is Contrast ratio. Image looks DEEP and 3 Dimensional.  On IPS image looks floaty because the black point is too high. Whereas on VA, the blacks actually look black, which adds to scene depth, what's closer and farther away is more obvious on a VA panel.

I wouldn't recommend any NON-Curved VA panels for PC,  because you are quite close to the monitor even on larger 32 inch ones,  the Curve greatly stabilizes the contrast drift problem which VA has.

Samsung has 1500R curve, but even 1800R is enough to take care of the sides drifting.  1500R would allow you to sit even closer than 1800R.


4K / 25x14-16 / 1080p


Competitive games , you have no choice , even with multiple 2080ti your frame / input latency will be higher with 2 cards.  For an All out frag-box, you'd get 1080p or at most 2560x1600/1440 monitors.

For atmospheric casual gaming, 4K is an option.


HDR


Not relevant for gaming, NO game has taken HDR seriously, or mastered their content / color grading to properly utilize HDR.   The HDR standard for gaming is not established, it's a mess, and very little resource is devoted to working with it on part of the studio.


ULMB


ALL types of LCDs have ULMB models.  blacklight strobe, to remove motion blur trails.  These models will however cut the peak brightness roughly in half, but greatly enhances motion clarity.

ULMB is not uniform. The pixels on the whole panel does not transition all at once. whereas the backlight DOES transition uniformly for the whole screen.

THIS MEANS,  they have to tune the backlight strobe timing typically to the Center of the screen. The consequence of which is,  The CENTER of the screen will always have slightly more motion clarity than the Top or Bottom of the screen.  This is still a net benefit, but there are limitations.

ALL LCDs are benefited by ULMB (for gaming). 

For movies, it's better, but movies are only 23.976fps, frame smear and judder somewhat negates the benefit of ULMB.


Brightness:

How many Nits do you need for gaming.  It depends on how bright your room is. 250nit is enough for most indoor situations.  300-500 nits is recommended if you're near a window during the day .

Take into account that LEDs will dim over time. especially when running at maximum brightness. you'll probably lose 30-50 nits in your first year or 2 of use @ maximum setting.

Ports:

For PC , typically displayport / hdmi/ dvi/ vga, doesn't really matter, they'll all work.   But some monitors may have trouble with HDMI input from consoles/ other devices without pixel-format options.



Using TV for PC monitor:

Highly recommend Curved VA TVs in this instance.   

Roku embedded TV models are the most hassle free as far as PC connectivity.

Samsung TVs work with PC, but the software and color engine is not as stable, you can't get color stable output from a samsung TV, it's temperature dynamic.

Sony, works, but UI is meh..

OLED, too blurry for competitive gaming, but for casual play they're great.  it WILL burn in, not a debate.


GAMUT:

Adobe RGB, SRGB, DCI-P3

Games are typically mastered to SRGB,  if you send the same signal to a P3 or Adobe rgb monitor, the colors will look oversaturated.  It's not accurate but some people like it.

Games are not color managed applications, (though this may change in the future if Nvidia actually integrates Reshade),

If you purchase a color probe, and calibrate your monitor, it will correct White point, Grey balance, and Contrast,  it does not offer GAMUT correction adjustment between P3/Srgb/Adobergb.   WAY WAY better than nothing, it's still not accurate, but color balance is greatly improved.




PHOTOSHOP:::

If you want to do PS seriously,  You will need 2 types of monitors, a HIGH END Adobe RGB monitor w/ high bit processing , 10-14bit,    and a middle grade Srgb monitor to Check your work for web-audiences.

The bulk of monitors out in the world are srgb, if you check your work on a high end AdobeRGB monitor, it may not be representative of the output Normal people see. This is especially true for Web.

For Print work, you don't need the second srgb monitor. you'd softproof on the Adobe rgb monitor.

YOU MUST PURCHASE a calibration probe.  Otherwise, everything you do is rubbish.

Colormunki-Display is the best bang for buck colorimeter, 

Datacolor Spyder 5/ spyder X  are slower and less accurate.


PRE-Calibrated Monitors:

Calibrations drift within the first 200-500 hours, the pre-calibration becomes worthless after that time.  The pre-calibration is also only true to 1 specific brightness setting, if you raise or lower the brightness, it's no longer a relevent calibration.   

This has been a way to market monitors, it's beyond meaningless in actual usage. GIMMICK.


Ah yes, it's 11:48 PM and i am typing on a sheet of rubber and electronics, whilst drinking Diet Coke and playing arsenal for almost an hour only winning once. Isn't that wonderful?

Thanks for the helpful guide btw

Offline Ckeeb

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 27 November 2019, 17:16:18 »
Thanks for the list :thumb:

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 27 November 2019, 17:36:51 »
Can tp recommend me the best 27"+ monitor for $200 or less?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 27 November 2019, 18:34:01 »
Can tp recommend me the best 27"+ monitor for $200 or less?

for movies, just buy anything samsung VA,  curved, they're pretty much all the same. 

For Gaming,  I'd get the new 240hz crg5 samsung VA.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 27 November 2019, 19:25:47 »
Can tp recommend me the best 27"+ monitor for $200 or less?

for movies, just buy anything samsung VA,  curved, they're pretty much all the same. 

For Gaming,  I'd get the new 240hz crg5 samsung VA.


I can't find it anywhere for less than $300

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 27 November 2019, 19:44:53 »


I can't find it anywhere for less than $300


signup for amazon credit card get $60 back,  + retail me not  maybe close to $300.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 29 November 2019, 02:36:28 »
Can tp recommend me the best 27"+ monitor for $200 or less?

For Gaming,  I'd get the new 240hz crg5 samsung VA.


I done did it  :-\

tp knows monitors and the reviews on this bad boy are all glowing. My current monitor is so worn it looks like it has built in ambient occlusion around the sides of it
 :))

hope it's the VA model, because I do actually use that semi-frequently to play arcade shmups do work
« Last Edit: Fri, 29 November 2019, 02:38:32 by noisyturtle »

Offline ergonaut

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 29 November 2019, 03:24:18 »
Nice summary, I appreciate it.

Though I have to say: VA != VA; not all panels of one type are created equal.

I have a monitor with a VA panel (a 27" Lenovo with G-Sync, can't remember the exact name), and its black levels are rather ****ty and not noticeably better than those on my LG ultrawide with IPS panel.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 29 November 2019, 06:31:52 »

I done did it  :-\

tp knows monitors and the reviews on this bad boy are all glowing. My current monitor is so worn it looks like it has built in ambient occlusion around the sides of it
 :))

hope it's the VA model, because I do actually use that semi-frequently to play arcade shmups do work

Tp4 so jelly righ now!!

VA displays black alot deeper than IPS, so while an IPS may get away with alot of backlight bleed, It may look more prominent on VA if it occurs. (Some) brighter spots are to be expected, all LCDs have this.

However, that's what amazon exchange is for if the bleed is really bad.

Don't worry about backlight bleed at angles that's true for all curved LCDs,  All you care about is viewed from Straight up front.

The edges usually have a little discoloration due to the clamping of Curved,

It's samsung, so you shouldn't have any bright / dark pixels, get it exchanged of course if you do.

Use a completely black background and check the dark uniformity @ around 50% brightness.

Then use a very dark green background to check overall uniformity.

For the gaming/ pixel response settings, there will be a few different ones and combos,  go to ufotest's website and play with the little ufo set to black background, and try out all the settings till you find the balance you like.

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 29 November 2019, 07:22:51 »
Getting ready for black friday!

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 29 November 2019, 19:24:16 »
In the absence of any non-wide QXGA monitors this NEC seems to be about the best I can find.  Sadly not available as an 80% off Black Friday special so won't be buying one anytime soon :(
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 29 November 2019, 19:40:53 »
In the absence of any non-wide QXGA monitors this NEC seems to be about the best I can find.  Sadly not available as an 80% off Black Friday special so won't be buying one anytime soon :(


These are pro monitors for color grading.

That SOUNDS like it'd be really awesome,  but actually there are requirements outside of plugging in a computer.

Without a temperature AND light controlled environment, The monitor can't really hold those tolerances,  and if your wall color is NOT the CALIBRATED 18% reflectant grey wall paint,  the whole trouble of the pro precision monitor is now wasted, because the wall color greatly impacts color perception.


It's like owning a formula 1 car,  yes it's powerful and fast, but if you don't also have a $Mil team, an F1 Track, endless combination of tires,   the car itself can not be driven any faster than a normal car if at all on public roads.

A pro-sumer monitor is already stretching the limit of potential usefulness.


I also do not recommend 4:3 monitors, because many pro software tool sets are designed for widescreen these days.  It may be good for some legacy apps, but it's confining for anything recent.


Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 29 November 2019, 20:11:21 »
I'm no pro but have you looked for a 4:3 monitor lately?  I found this rant from 2013 where the author suggests there's more money to be made from TVs and because movies are widescreen TVs must be and that's why there are no decent monitors anymore (in our opinion), which makes perfect sense.

I'm not gaming, I'm not watching movies, I don't have ADHD requiring two windows open side by side to keep myself amused - all I want is decent vertical screen size/res to minimise scrolling on websites without having to turn my head.  The choices are driving somewhere random to collect a well-used "consumer" monitor from ebay or stupidly expensive "pro" monitors that no-one wants because developers inevitably changed their apps to work with what people were told they wanted to use, so now they really do.

I don't want widescreen and the only way to voice my opinion is by not buying widescreen, and yes I am that stubborn that if I can't get a 4:3 I'll go computerless until I can get something head mounted.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 29 November 2019, 20:33:58 »
I'm no pro but have you looked for a 4:3 monitor lately?  I found this rant from 2013 where the author suggests there's more money to be made from TVs and because movies are widescreen TVs must be and that's why there are no decent monitors anymore (in our opinion), which makes perfect sense.

I'm not gaming, I'm not watching movies, I don't have ADHD requiring two windows open side by side to keep myself amused - all I want is decent vertical screen size/res to minimise scrolling on websites without having to turn my head.  The choices are driving somewhere random to collect a well-used "consumer" monitor from ebay or stupidly expensive "pro" monitors that no-one wants because developers inevitably changed their apps to work with what people were told they wanted to use, so now they really do.

I don't want widescreen and the only way to voice my opinion is by not buying widescreen, and yes I am that stubborn that if I can't get a 4:3 I'll go computerless until I can get something head mounted.


Mmmm... if you're as open minded as you say,  you can buy a 4K wide screen, use it in 2880x2160 mode for 4:3 ,   and just treat the empty black bars as the wall.

It makes very little difference for your usage scenario to have black bars and it's only $200 to buy a 43" 4K TV.

This would give you a 35.13"  4:3 monitor.  Much bigger than any 4:3 made.

And the GPU will scale the resolution 1:1

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 02 December 2019, 20:21:54 »
Well I got the Samsung CRG5. It's a really nice monitor, much nicer than my old Asus. Refresh rate is great, and shows almost no ghosting.

The stand it comes with is complete crap and has no height adjustment. When I adjust the tilt it gradually just slouches back down so I'm propping it up with a couple cigarette packs until I can get a stand replacement. Samsung is sending out a replacement stand in the meantime.

Offline Sniping

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 02 December 2019, 21:21:23 »
Well I got the Samsung CRG5. It's a really nice monitor, much nicer than my old Asus. Refresh rate is great, and shows almost no ghosting.

The stand it comes with is complete crap and has no height adjustment. When I adjust the tilt it gradually just slouches back down so I'm propping it up with a couple cigarette packs until I can get a stand replacement. Samsung is sending out a replacement stand in the meantime.

will the replacement be any better if the stand design itself just sucks? maybe you should just spend another $30-$40 for a monitor arm

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 02 December 2019, 21:39:26 »
Well I got the Samsung CRG5. It's a really nice monitor, much nicer than my old Asus. Refresh rate is great, and shows almost no ghosting.

The stand it comes with is complete crap and has no height adjustment. When I adjust the tilt it gradually just slouches back down so I'm propping it up with a couple cigarette packs until I can get a stand replacement. Samsung is sending out a replacement stand in the meantime.

will the replacement be any better if the stand design itself just sucks? maybe you should just spend another $30-$40 for a monitor arm

are there any monitor arms that don't clamp to the back/side of a desk? they are all clamp and gromet mounts, impossible to put on my "desk" with no edges

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 02 December 2019, 23:33:00 »
are there any monitor arms that don't clamp to the back/side of a desk? they are all clamp and gromet mounts, impossible to put on my "desk" with no edges

Either wall mount, or drill holes in desk..

They do make the big Y shape legs, buh, they're not very pretty , I'd rather drill some holes.

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 03 December 2019, 18:14:52 »
Well I got the Samsung CRG5. It's a really nice monitor, much nicer than my old Asus. Refresh rate is great, and shows almost no ghosting.

The stand it comes with is complete crap and has no height adjustment. When I adjust the tilt it gradually just slouches back down so I'm propping it up with a couple cigarette packs until I can get a stand replacement. Samsung is sending out a replacement stand in the meantime.

What are all the gaming settings in the menu ?

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 03 December 2019, 18:29:12 »
Well I got the Samsung CRG5. It's a really nice monitor, much nicer than my old Asus. Refresh rate is great, and shows almost no ghosting.

The stand it comes with is complete crap and has no height adjustment. When I adjust the tilt it gradually just slouches back down so I'm propping it up with a couple cigarette packs until I can get a stand replacement. Samsung is sending out a replacement stand in the meantime.

What are all the gaming settings in the menu ?


There aren't really? There's no more settings in the menu than other monitors have. There's an Adaptive Sync and Black Equalizer setting, but that's pretty much it aside from standard settings.

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 03 December 2019, 19:30:49 »

There aren't really? There's no more settings in the menu than other monitors have. There's an Adaptive Sync and Black Equalizer setting, but that's pretty much it aside from standard settings.

I guess they figured it's just Natively Awesome. no settings required ? hahahaha

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 04 December 2019, 11:15:27 »


I can't find it anywhere for less than $300


signup for amazon credit card get $60 back,  + retail me not  maybe close to $300.


My dad has prime so i might be able to get it faster shipping or at a discount.

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 12 December 2019, 14:17:49 »
I've had this new monitor for less than 2 weeks and I already smacked it in the center with a loose wild usb cable leaving a nice lil scratch  :mad:

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 12 December 2019, 17:16:42 »
I've had this new monitor for less than 2 weeks and I already smacked it in the center with a loose wild usb cable leaving a nice lil scratch  :mad:

Ur gaming style is 2 aggressive.

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 12 December 2019, 22:39:59 »
I've had this new monitor for less than 2 weeks and I already smacked it in the center with a loose wild usb cable leaving a nice lil scratch  :mad:

Ur gaming style is 2 aggressive.

Ur teal text is 2 aggressive


Offline fanpeople

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Re: Holiday Monitors Guide. [TEXT WALL]
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 12 December 2019, 22:43:50 »