Author Topic: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?  (Read 850 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kremblir

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 3
What do you recommend to reproduce this force curve from a rubberdome G213 to a mech. switch:

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard/1-0/graph#6518/6685

I found a mech. switch that has a slightly similar force curve. It is the gateron-zealios-62g:

https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/MOkjQkks/gateron-zealios-62g/feel-10-graph-large.jpg

But the zealios has a higher tactile point at 60. I need the tactile point at 50 like the rubberdome variant. What can I do here? If a replace the spring in the zealios with 50g or 45g will that do the trick or do I need something else?



Offline phwog_

  • Posts: 19
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 09:43:58 »
I have heard that holy pandas feel like rubber domes in a way. I could be completely wrong about that, as I have no intention to try them, but look into that

Offline yui

  • Posts: 967
  • Location: 127.0.0.1 (in azerty)
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 09:47:02 »
if you want the same feeling as the rubber dome why not keep the rubber dome? what is the reason you are switching?
and have you tried a 60g switch? to me it feels rather light, bordering too light.

rubber domes are the best at being tactile and silent, mx compatibles are close to the worst at it, even if the force curve matches the feeling is unlikely to be identical.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline phwog_

  • Posts: 19
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 09:55:53 »
if you want the same feeling as the rubber dome why not keep the rubber dome? what is the reason you are switching?
and have you tried a 60g switch? to me it feels rather light, bordering too light.

rubber domes are the best at being tactile and silent, mx compatibles are close to the worst at it, even if the force curve matches the feeling is unlikely to be identical.
are you asking why he would switch from an office keyboard? or asking why he wouldn't just buy something like topre. cause there are many reasons one would switch from an office keyboard other then the switch feel.

Offline kremblir

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 3
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 10:00:35 »
I have a light RSI, so I kept using rubberdome keyboards.
I tried some linear switches at first (cherry mx silent) but switched back to rubberdome. I can not stand the force of a spring in a linear, so I need a tactile that goes way down after the bump like a rubberdome.
The thing with mech. keyboards is that there are much more innovations and customizations.
Look at the Ergodox EZ or the Dygma Raise keyboards. Both have thumb
keys that I miss in rubberdome keyboards.
Thanks for suggesting the other switches.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 855
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 13:03:56 »
What do you recommend to reproduce this force curve from a rubberdome G213 to a mech. switch:

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard/1-0/graph#6518/6685

I found a mech. switch that has a slightly similar force curve. It is the gateron-zealios-62g:

https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/MOkjQkks/gateron-zealios-62g/feel-10-graph-large.jpg

But the zealios has a higher tactile point at 60. I need the tactile point at 50 like the rubberdome variant. What can I do here? If a replace the spring in the zealios with 50g or 45g will that do the trick or do I need something else?

I've been down this road.

Sure, Zealio V2 and especially the Zilent V2 are kind of like a rubber-dome force curve, for sure.

But they are a bit much.

They are highly tactile, with a high tactile peak force, and then they just slam down [that's why Zilent is the better of the two]. A lighter spring won't fix the problem, because it will just accentuate the high tactility. Then there's the Holy Panda, but it's almost as crazy as Zealio V2. You can tone it down by lubing heavily with 3204 or 205g0. I've built some Holy Bobas [similar switch] using 68 G Progessive springs, and it's relatively gentle, but still kinda crazy.

So your best bet is U4 Boba. It's a really new switch that people outside of enthusiasts haven't heard much about yet from Youtube videos, but it's rapidly popular among people who build.

The U4 Boba is a silent switch that has the tactility kind of throughout. It feels like some variants of rubber-dome / EC keyboards, like the ABKO 45 G [Niz domes]. Not kidding. So it's one of the closest to rubber-dome feel among MX switches, and I'm not the only one saying this.

This U4 Boba switch has a lot of good qualities. The first one is, it's completely usable in stock form. You can buy the 62 G or 68 G Bobas from the store, put them right in a keyboard, and they work great. The second thing is, you can easily mod them or buy them in pieces. This means you can make them more gentle, if you prefer that. Bring the spring weight down to ~57G [Long TX springs], lightly lube the slide rails and stem, and bingo, it's an office rubber-dome in intensity.

Also, they are cheaper than other silent tactiles.

Finally, if you want a more regular non-silent top-heavy tactile, there are a few options. First are the Kailh Pro Purples, which I have mentioned here a lot. The reason is, they have a force curve of pretty high weight at the top, then it just becomes a straight linear! It's weighted at 70 G bottom-out, the tactile part is somewhat stronger than MX Brown. It's a lighter and more coherently tactile version of Halo True [which also tries to mimic a rubber-dome somewhat, but is kinda heavy].

Anyway, the Kailh Pro Purple is kinda an outdated design these days, but they are cheap, and really do 'top-load' the force like a rubber-dome.

Another 'classic' is Kailh BOX Brown. They have a pretty decent tactile barrier right at the top, then it just sort of buckles or crashes down. Like stepping from a sidewalk onto the street. They're also fairly inexpensive. They're not silent, but there's a new silent variant called BOX Silent Brown that has the same shape, but it's a little more tactile, almost as much as Zilent V2.

What you should probably do is get ahold of some of these affordable Kailh switches that mimic rubber-dome force profiles, the Pro Purple, BOX Brown, and BOX Silent Brown. There's Halo True as well, but it's a little pricer and not as good.*

You can order this stuff from AliExpress, and also Novelkeys when they restock. Like you could order 10 of each switch, for cheap. You can also alternatively order a Kailh switch tester from a place like KBDFans / KPRepublic / AliExpress or maybe a U.S. reseller. For your use case, a Kailh switch tester or some giant all-in-one could be useful if it contains the above switches.

As for the U4 Boba, do what you have to in order to at least get samples. Maybe ask around on MechMarket, someone might be getting rid of a few. Otherwise you'd have to order at least 70 at a time. Although some places have samplers - ask.

Getting them into a keyboard is a different story, but let's tackle that hurdle as it comes. First, you have to determine which switch you like. Buying the cheapest possible hotswap keyboard could help you in that regard [they are getting 'cheap' these days].


*There's a discounted version of Halo True on clearance sale right now at Novelkeys called Kailh Polia. Check out the webpage and the Specs Sheet, which gives the force profile. You could order 70 to mess around with, testing, and later take the stems out to make Holy Pandas or Holy Bobas.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3870
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 19:14:17 »
Jailhouse Blues was my attempt to create something similar to scissor switches, it gets pretty close, especially if you use J-spacers or o-rings but they are a massive hassle to make.
As mentioned Zealio V2 and Zilent V2 are very close, Bobas are supposed to also be similar but I haven't used those.

You definitely want dampened/silent to get that softer bottom out feel.
I would NOT recommend Purple Pro or anything Kailh frankly, none of them feel similar to domes in my opinion.
Note, Zeals have different profiles based on springs, 62g will feel more like a scissor, the bigger more rounded bumps will feel more like a typical rubber dome.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13378
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 10 May 2021, 20:09:17 »
Just use dome if you want dome. It's like asking, what's the most Human Duck. Surely there is a duck that's more human than other ducks, but WHY duck if you actually want human ?..


hahahahahahahawhawi8aehwifho;aawghog

Offline yui

  • Posts: 967
  • Location: 127.0.0.1 (in azerty)
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 01:32:35 »
I have a light RSI, so I kept using rubberdome keyboards.
I tried some linear switches at first (cherry mx silent) but switched back to rubberdome. I can not stand the force of a spring in a linear, so I need a tactile that goes way down after the bump like a rubberdome.
The thing with mech. keyboards is that there are much more innovations and customizations.
Look at the Ergodox EZ or the Dygma Raise keyboards. Both have thumb
keys that I miss in rubberdome keyboards.
Thanks for suggesting the other switches.
(i wanted to make sure it was not the elitists making you feel inadequate with your rubber dome board, the best switch is the one you like most, not the one others tell you is)
if you want a very light ergonomic switch, Cherry made the brown and clear switches for that purpose although brown's tactility is very poor and clears are heavier. maybe silent brown the reproduce the soft bottom out. the thing with MX is that compared to RD they have a fixed 4mm travel and often a very hard bottom out, and i think there exists rubber dome based split boards with thumb cluster.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline kremblir

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 3
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 06:09:35 »
Thank you for all the suggestions. I found someone removed the spring and measured it:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bluepylons/Open-Switch-Curve-Meter/main/Force%20curves/April-20-21-calibration/TG3-dome-over-springless-Gat-Yellow.png

So I will may test the U4 Boba fett and other switches and remove the springs everywhere just for testing how my fingers like it. Is there someone who has taken out the springs and uses the keyboard like that?

@ HungerMechanic: The Niz Plum Domes you tested. Do you think they have the same force profile like this topre:
https://external-preview.redd.it/q4PZzktJvY5SRChy5H8t7hVzaosPuVCveGad7ACMh00.jpg?auto=webp&s=6c00a8a5ea7b1c402820e9284ffaed0533c796db

@LeslieAnn: You use the "Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g spring". How do the 39g springs feel? Is it more like a rubberdome or more like a light scissor?

@yui: No problem and thanks for the suggestions.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 855
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 11:32:03 »

You definitely want dampened/silent to get that softer bottom out feel.
I would NOT recommend Purple Pro or anything Kailh frankly, none of them feel similar to domes in my opinion.

It's true that the non-silenced Kailh switches like Pro Purple don't themselves feel like rubber domes.

It's just that the force profile is somewhat similar, in that there is a tactile barrier at the top that just sort of collapses once you've overcome it.

I find it easy to transition between rubber domes and Kailh Pro Purple / BOX Brown for that reason. Similar force involved.

But yeah, the silenced tactiles [Zilents, Boba] are the way to get to get a more actual rubber-dome feel.




@ HungerMechanic: The Niz Plum Domes you tested. Do you think they have the same force profile like this topre:
https://external-preview.redd.it/q4PZzktJvY5SRChy5H8t7hVzaosPuVCveGad7ACMh00.jpg?auto=webp&s=6c00a8a5ea7b1c402820e9284ffaed0533c796db


Now, force profile between Niz and Topre is a good question. They're not exactly the same, I can tell you that based on mine and others' subjective impression.

For ABKO, you just need to know that it's a genuine EC keyboard with rubber-dome as the method of generating tactility.

The way it feels to me is like a linear with a heavier tactile barrier at the top, once overcome you press down and still feel a lower amount of consistent tactility on the way down. Like a tactile MX red, kind of.

Coming from MX, ABKO feels like typing on luxurious mud, honestly [similar to Topre].


I have a light RSI, so I kept using rubberdome keyboards.
I tried some linear switches at first (cherry mx silent) but switched back to rubberdome. I can not stand the force of a spring in a linear, so I need a tactile that goes way down after the bump like a rubberdome.


if you want a very light ergonomic switch, Cherry made the brown and clear switches for that purpose although brown's tactility is very poor and clears are heavier. maybe silent brown the reproduce the soft bottom out. the thing with MX is that compared to RD they have a fixed 4mm travel and often a very hard bottom out, and i think there exists rubber dome based split boards with thumb cluster.

If I was trying to address the issue of RSI, I would consider silent light tactiles.

Not the heavy tactiles like Boba or Zilent. But OUTEMU Silent Sky [a little more tactile than MX Brown] in a decent housing. I can recommend some. At around 60-63.5 G, it's a relatively gentle and bouncy switch. I'm in the middle of building them right now.

Another way to address RSI and hard bottom-out is with Progressive springs. Ergo Clears with 68 G Progressive springs are mild in tactility, and you don't slam down because the spring is getting a little heavier.

This appears to be the most ergonomic way to type, for many. Or just use a moderate light tactile like Everglide Jade. Use 3204 to carefully lube where the leaf makes noise, and you end up with a soft and reasonable-sounding switch.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3870
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 21:12:51 »
@LeslieAnn: You use the "Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g spring". How do the 39g springs feel? Is it more like a rubberdome or more like a light scissor?
39g is far softer than a dome, if you jump to these from any normal switch you have have serious issues with triggering them on accident. Most domes are 60-80g.

39g is too soft for these, they need mid 40 grams to be reliable (I recommend at least 45g), they're snappy, they just get stuck returning if you lift too slow. You can do 39g with thin lube on Clears and Purple Pros, probably some other Zeals but not 62g. I only sort of get away with it on these. I run these springs in my Purple Pros and they work fine so long as you use the right lube and do some breaking in (I have a machine for that).

I'm not sure if other Zeals do this but th62g Zilents are different than many others in that if you use a lighter spring the tactility goes up, in the case of 39g springs it's like hitting a brick wall while typing. They start at 20g then you hit the bump, which skyrockets to 45g, then tanks back down to 25g before ramping up to 39g @bottom. SUUUUUUPER tactile. It's about as tactile as Box Navies which some have said are too tactile. They're a bit obnoxious at times, fantastic other times and a pain in the neck once in a while.

I'm at the extreme end of light spring tactiles, it's a rabbit hole. Beware.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1830
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 12 May 2021, 16:11:55 »
It's about as tactile as Box Navies which some have said are too tactile.

I don't even think of box navies as being all that tactile compared to thick clicks with weaker springs. Maybe that's mostly perception though. If the springs were any heavier than they already are ... I would probably want more tactility to compensate.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3870
Re: How to reproduce this rubberdome force curve in a mech. switch?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 12 May 2021, 22:49:21 »
It's about as tactile as Box Navies which some have said are too tactile.

I don't even think of box navies as being all that tactile compared to thick clicks with weaker springs. Maybe that's mostly perception though. If the springs were any heavier than they already are ... I would probably want more tactility to compensate.

Navies are super tactile but a lot of that "feel" is the click bar and noise, it's not really all that tactile, it's just how most people perceive it. Zilents are not only tactile but silent and with the super light springs achieve that same level of tactile feel but it's all actual feel, no noise or click bar vibration.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)