Opinions on the ErgoDox Infinity?

[HaaTa]

Because it's not a secret, this is the Bluetooth module I'm currently looking at: http://www.rfdigital.com/product/rfd22301-rfduino-ble-smt/.
One of the big musts for me is NKRO over Bluetooth (cross-platform), so that may delay official support.

For a wireless interconnect, I probably wouldn't use Bluetooth. Would probably be something like ZigBee.

[jacobolus]

Wireless is super overrated IMO. Adds a lot of physical/electrical complexity (now you need batteries, some battery charging electronics, the wireless controllers themselves, ...), increases latency, and makes the programming a whole lot more complicated (meaning you get stuck with whatever firmware someone makes for it, because the 3 alternative open source keyboard firmware implementations aren’t going to bother implementing stuff for one specific board, and meaning if you decide you want to fiddle with the firmware yourself you now have a lot of extra complexity to wade though), requires a bunch of extra UI to figure out how to match the keyboard sections up that you care about, configure how they’ll work, and decide what to do when one or more parts goes offline, etc., for pretty marginal benefits. Then you need to consider whether anyone with an antenna nearby can listen in on your keystrokes; to do this properly you probably need to encrypt everything, yet another layer of complexity.

Overall, wireless makes everything more expensive and less hobbyist friendly.

[chrisfowler99]

Hmm...and I ordered parts for an ergodox yesterday. LOL

Oh, well...soldering relaxes me...this should help me get over that.  )

[Baxter]

I'd assumed the people that wanted bluetooth were thinking more of being able to assign a command that switched over to bluetooth communication with a host to use with tablets/mediacentres and such, not between the two halves.

[HaaTa]

Yeah, I don't think something like that is too difficult. Would probably just be broadcasting a different id so you would already have paired with that device.

[bendon]

Wireless is super overrated IMO. Adds a lot of physical/electrical complexity (now you need batteries, some battery charging electronics, the wireless controllers themselves, ...), increases latency, and makes the programming a whole lot more complicated (meaning you get stuck with whatever firmware someone makes for it, because the 3 alternative open source keyboard firmware implementations aren’t going to bother implementing stuff for one specific board, and meaning if you decide you want to fiddle with the firmware yourself you now have a lot of extra complexity to wade though), requires a bunch of extra UI to figure out how to match the keyboard sections up that you care about, configure how they’ll work, and decide what to do when one or more parts goes offline, etc., for pretty marginal benefits. Then you need to consider whether anyone with an antenna nearby can listen in on your keystrokes; to do this properly you probably need to encrypt everything, yet another layer of complexity.

Overall, wireless makes everything more expensive and less hobbyist friendly.

Perfectly understandable.  Right now I just tuck the trrs cable behind my laptop with the usb to the side.  I have a wireless mouse so with the exception of the Ethernet and monitor cables here and there, my ergodox or 60% board cables are the only ones taking up space on my work desk.  Wireless dongle between halves could be overkill (but cool as **** ) but at the very least a wireless path to the pc would allow for some flexibility of setup....I've still been trying to figure out low cost ways to mount them to my chair .

[DSlayerZX]

hmm interesting, so Haata is interested or planning to implement blue tooth onto the ergodox ?


on the side note, I am planning to tent the ergodox via the Kinesis V3, though I also bought the Grifiti Ergodox pad as well...

Now time to figure out how to use that thing along with tenting...

[slaction]

I really liked the idea of the Ergodox when I first saw it.  I really love my Kinesis Advantage and I figured the Ergodox would have a very similar feel to it.  But for me it just didn't feel like that at all.  I gave my Ergodox a couple of weeks to try to get used to it, but because I can't afford another Ergo to keep at the office, I just never really was able to get used to it.

[jacobolus]

I really liked the idea of the Ergodox when I first saw it.  I really love my Kinesis Advantage and I figured the Ergodox would have a very similar feel to it.  But for me it just didn't feel like that at all.  I gave my Ergodox a couple of weeks to try to get used to it, but because I can't afford another Ergo to keep at the office, I just never really was able to get used to it.

Don’t worry, you’re not alone. For me, the thumb section is about 50% of the problem, and the amount of stagger between columns is the other 50% (on a flat keyboard you need more stagger between columns, whereas on the Maltron or Kinesis Advantage there’s a vertical step between columns instead; the Ergodox isn’t aggressive enough for my taste). It’s IMO especially bad if using uniform (e.g. DSA) keycaps.

One thing: if you want to give a keyboard like this a fair test, you really need to tent it, not leave it flat on the table.

[clickclack123]

Because it's not a secret, this is the Bluetooth module I'm currently looking at: http://www.rfdigital.com/product/rfd22301-rfduino-ble-smt/.
One of the big musts for me is NKRO over Bluetooth (cross-platform), so that may delay official support.

For a wireless interconnect, I probably wouldn't use Bluetooth. Would probably be something like ZigBee.

I find it very interesting that you're trying to get NKRO over bluetooth working, I tried to investigate that using an Adafruit Bluefruit EZ-Key a while back. I asked Adafruit about it but they couldn't give me any concrete answers. I even started a thread for it, but got no replies. 

Good luck!

I’m hoping I can convince MassDrop to put out a similar keyboard with designs along the lines of these:

Show Image

(see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848)

Basically, they wanted to keep the existing physical layout for their first version where they were trying to modify several other things (screens, new way of handling split halves, new case construction, new controller, etc.).

I’m personally slightly disappointed that a bunch more people may end up with keyboards that don’t suit them as well as a modified design would, but I understand MassDrop’s reasoning.

Everyone seems to be bashing the Ergodox layout, but I really like it. I find it very easy to use three of the thumbkeys on each side, the others may be a bit harder to find but I put keys that I don't use much on there.

Having said that, I would probably buy a keyboard with either of the layouts that you've shown there! They're all streets ahead of the usual staggered qwerty abomination.

[Want]

Very interesting, though my money is going towards a Lightsaver atm. Since MD put up another drop for the original Infinity right after the first drop was shipped, I wouldn't be surprised to see this up again soon. More hyped about upcoming iterations of the Dox than this one.

[clickclack123]

The traces on that PCB look awful.

I think any PCB that serves its function is beautiful.

Edit: Actually, I do notice that it doesn't support PCB-mount stabilizers. That's actually a bummer for me because I love the feeling of the pcb-mount stabs on my Ergodox. I didn't like the feeling of the 2u thumbswitches without stabs. Guess now I gotta find some plate-mount cherry edit:Costar stabs from somewhere. So yeah, awful pcb. 

[clickclack123]

I just signed up for an Infinity Ergodox with DCS caps. I'll put MX clears on it. 

Fingers crossed that there'll be NKRO firmware available for it by the time it's assembled and on my desk. 

[OverKill]

The traces on that PCB look awful.

I think any PCB that serves its function is beautiful.

Edit: Actually, I do notice that it doesn't support PCB-mount stabilizers. That's actually a bummer for me because I love the feeling of the pcb-mount stabs on my Ergodox. I didn't like the feeling of the 2u thumbswitches without stabs. Guess now I gotta find some plate-mount cherry stabs from somewhere. So yeah, awful pcb. 

The plate has cutouts for costar stabs.. I would never want 2u keycaps with no stabs that is just asking for trouble. We are looking in to shipping stabs with the units.

[jacobolus]

Everyone seems to be bashing the Ergodox layout, but I really like it. I find it very easy to use three of the thumbkeys on each side, the others may be a bit harder to find but I put keys that I don't use much on there.

Hey, that’s fine! If it works for you, then go for it.

I tried using an Ergodox for a couple months, but the thumb section drove me crazy, prompting me to start prototyping alternatives. (And I know it’s a similar story for Jesse (a.k.a. obra of keyboardio), Acidfire, Oobly, and several others.)

Perhaps the Ergodox’s greatest contribution is that it’s good enough to be appealing, but obviously flawed enough to compel people to fix it.

[Findecanor]

I would never want 2u keycaps with no stabs that is just asking for trouble. We are looking in to shipping stabs with the units.

Most ErgoDoxen were built without stabs because of errors in the layered case design, but that is not much of a problem because of how you press the keys. Kinesis Advantage 2u keys do not have stabs either.
If you would have pressed the keys from another angle, though, it would have been different.

I tried using an Ergodox for a couple months, but the thumb section drove me crazy, prompting me to start prototyping alternatives.

You can't do my thumb key mod on the ErgoDox Infinity..

[clickclack123]

Perhaps the Ergodox’s greatest contribution is that it’s good enough to be appealing, but obviously flawed enough to compel people to fix it.

Seems a bit harsh to call the Ergodox "obviously flawed". It's obvious that some design compromises were made, eg flat for ease of manufacture and lower price, but any successful product is a compromise.

The Ergodox blew my mind when I first discovered it. I ordered one the next day (after a bit of research on switch types), and have never looked back.

Oobly's board, although nice, is more of a DIY thing, not for general production, isn't it? I'm very dubious of the palm switches on Obra's board, plus a butterfly really doesn't fit with the general aesthetics of my battle station...

You can certainly see the Ergodox's influence in both those projects though, so yeah, it really hit the sweet spot in my opinion. Also it proved to everyone that a DIY design could be successful on a larger scale.

I'm still super-keen to see how Acidfire's board turns out, seems like the best one on the horizon for me.

[Data]

Perhaps the Ergodox’s greatest contribution is that it’s good enough to be appealing, but obviously flawed enough to compel people to fix it.

Seems a bit harsh to call the Ergodox "obviously flawed".

Agreed. What I think Jac meant was that its modularity and "hackability" lent well to further customization by intrepid geeks who may have found its ergonomic compromises a bit lacking.

Personally I've found it just about perfect for my needs. Once you get the key map right it's smooth sailing.

[vvp]

Ergodox thumb cluster is not that bad. It is just unnecessary far away from the main key block. Even on a flat keyboard, it could be nearer by about 0.5*u. A lot of people (including me) would like it better that way.

Jacobolus' thumb keys look better for a flat keyboard.

But I would say: if you can afford the cost then go for a contoured keyboard (Kinesis Advantage or Maltron).

[jacobolus]

Perhaps the Ergodox’s greatest contribution is that it’s good enough to be appealing, but obviously flawed enough to compel people to fix it.

Seems a bit harsh to call the Ergodox "obviously flawed". It's obvious that some design compromises were made, eg flat for ease of manufacture and lower price, but any successful product is a compromise.

“Flawed” in the sense that, while the design works well for some people, it’s unusable for many others, even after they give it a serious try for a few months. “Obvious” is in the eye of the beholder. I think many of the problems are obvious, if you think about it from a hand anatomy perspective, and start looking around at people’s hands and the way they use them while typing. For someone who hasn’t thought much about it, the design tradeoffs are probably somewhat harder to analyze. Likewise, for someone who finds the Ergodox to perfect match their preferences, understanding the problems other people have with it might be difficult.

Let me give the Ergodox its due though: as a hobbyist project that grew into a product selling thousands, and as an inspiration for tinkerers, the Ergodox has been a smashing success.

[clickclack123]

Looks like someone forgot to take their ritalin today. 

[v6ak]

While this will be rather a short-term issue, the significant change of CPU can split the community for some time. It is probably not an issue for majority of users who just use the official firmware, but it might be a significant issue for those who want. This is one of reasons I am likely to wait for next batch of ErgoDox Infinity.

[daerid]

You can't do my thumb key mod on the ErgoDox Infinity..

Show Image

That really sucks, because I'd use the **** outta that.

[vivalarevolución]

Perhaps the Ergodox’s greatest contribution is that it’s good enough to be appealing, but obviously flawed enough to compel people to fix it.

I would agree and say that the Ergodox served as a catalyst and inspiration for many designs afterwards.  Who knows if the creators of those designs would have formulated them without first seeing and using the Ergodox.

[fatchoi]

I'm thinking whether I should buy this Infinity Dox. I still have an original Dox only partly assembled.
Or is there more cool features and upgrades on an even more advanced Dox coming later this year?

Struggling whether to join or not.

[clickclack123]

I'm thinking whether I should buy this Infinity Dox. I still have an original Dox only partly assembled.
Or is there more cool features and upgrades on an even more advanced Dox coming later this year?

Struggling whether to join or not.

I'd finish my first dox and test it to make sure that I like it before buying another, if I was in your situation...

Personally, I don't think it's a huge upgrade on the original. Backlighting could be nice, but the lcd is gimmicky, and I'm slightly nervous about the cpu change, since the TMK firmware that I'm using and happy with atm won't work AFAIK. It is a good move to get rid of the TRRS cable.

But the physical layout is the same, so really in use I'd say it'll be pretty much the same (I hope).

I did read somewhere that bluetooth may be in the works for the future. But I actually think bluetooth/wireless is a negative TBH. Extra complexity for no actual gain. Ergodox is not going to be a good portable keyboard. Too big and the two halves would flop around and be a hassle. Plus battery troubles as well.

[Data]

I'm thinking whether I should buy this Infinity Dox. I still have an original Dox only partly assembled.
Or is there more cool features and upgrades on an even more advanced Dox coming later this year?

Struggling whether to join or not.

Were the lack of an LCD display and the TRRS connection the only things holding you back on your first 'Dox?  Because those are the major differences.  I'd include firmware in that but it sounds like you never made it that far.  Otherwise I don't see why you'd invest in the Infinity if you never gave the original 'Dox a fair shake.  It doesn't make a lot of sense.

[fatchoi]

I'm thinking whether I should buy this Infinity Dox. I still have an original Dox only partly assembled.
Or is there more cool features and upgrades on an even more advanced Dox coming later this year?

Struggling whether to join or not.

I'd finish my first dox and test it to make sure that I like it before buying another, if I was in your situation...

Personally, I don't think it's a huge upgrade on the original. Backlighting could be nice, but the lcd is gimmicky, and I'm slightly nervous about the cpu change, since the TMK firmware that I'm using and happy with atm won't work AFAIK. It is a good move to get rid of the TRRS cable.

But the physical layout is the same, so really in use I'd say it'll be pretty much the same (I hope).

I did read somewhere that bluetooth may be in the works for the future. But I actually think bluetooth/wireless is a negative TBH. Extra complexity for no actual gain. Ergodox is not going to be a good portable keyboard. Too big and the two halves would flop around and be a hassle. Plus battery troubles as well.

I'm thinking whether I should buy this Infinity Dox. I still have an original Dox only partly assembled.
Or is there more cool features and upgrades on an even more advanced Dox coming later this year?

Struggling whether to join or not.

Were the lack of an LCD display and the TRRS connection the only things holding you back on your first 'Dox?  Because those are the major differences.  I'd include firmware in that but it sounds like you never made it that far.  Otherwise I don't see why you'd invest in the Infinity if you never gave the original 'Dox a fair shake.  It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Thanks guys. For firmware, I think I'm pretty satisfied if I could edit 3 layers on Dox (1 QWERTY, 1 Colemak, 1 Function). Would you please tell me if there is any other added advantage on alternative firmware? I'd do a more thorough search.

It seems to me that the LCD could indicate whether I'm in the QWERTY or Colemak layer, and there sounds to be potential of further software enhancement, such that the screen could display more information.

Agree that I don't need a BT or wireless connectivity, which means an extra battery.

The reason why I don't finish assembling my Dox is that I'm waiting for custom springs from a GB that's been dragging over a year.
You know, for Dox, there's no notched layer. Once things are soldered, changing springs would be a tough work...

I own two TECK boards and probably would fall in love with Dox. The thumb cluster might need some time to get used to though. (a fan of ergonomic board since I owned the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Desktop 7000  )

[clickclack123]

Yeah, it's a bit disappointing that the plate doesn't have the cutouts so you can open the switches on the dox.

If you have a TECK, that's pretty similar to an ergodox, although much more limited in layer setup and no thumbkeys. If you like the TECK, there's a good chance you'll like the ergodox. I use a TECK at work and an ergodox at home. I like the ergodox better though.

I use TMK firmware on my dox so NKRO works, and I have layers set up to work nicely with Plover for stenography, and dvorak otherwise. But it says on the massdrop description for the infinity ergodox that NKRO will work, so I suspect (hope?) that I can set it up to work pretty much the same.

So yeah, buy it.

[fatchoi]

Yeah, it's a bit disappointing that the plate doesn't have the cutouts so you can open the switches on the dox.

If you have a TECK, that's pretty similar to an ergodox, although much more limited in layer setup and no thumbkeys. If you like the TECK, there's a good chance you'll like the ergodox. I use a TECK at work and an ergodox at home. I like the ergodox better though.

I use TMK firmware on my dox so NKRO works, and I have layers set up to work nicely with Plover for stenography, and dvorak otherwise. But it says on the massdrop description for the infinity ergodox that NKRO will work, so I suspect (hope?) that I can set it up to work pretty much the same.

So yeah, buy it.

Yeah, it's a bit disappointing that the plate doesn't have the cutouts so you can open the switches on the dox.

If you have a TECK, that's pretty similar to an ergodox, although much more limited in layer setup and no thumbkeys. If you like the TECK, there's a good chance you'll like the ergodox. I use a TECK at work and an ergodox at home. I like the ergodox better though.

I use TMK firmware on my dox so NKRO works, and I have layers set up to work nicely with Plover for stenography, and dvorak otherwise. But it says on the massdrop description for the infinity ergodox that NKRO will work, so I suspect (hope?) that I can set it up to work pretty much the same.

So yeah, buy it.

Perhaps I should buy a full hand Infinity Dox, to further differentiate from my existing Dox... I guess I'd like Dox too after adapting to TECK.
TECK is quite a good board IMO, but I'll need to find out which one I like more later.

Still got 2 weeks to think about it. A tough decision as I've been spending too much. Although I could afford, and always wanna try new things, I just need a reason to justify a new buy.

[Melvang]

Just out of curiosity, what is the issue with the TRRS cable?  It seems like a pretty standard connection, cheap connectors, easy to work with, and somewhat easy to buy cables off the shelf.

[Data]

Just out of curiosity, what is the issue with the TRRS cable?  It seems like a pretty standard connection, cheap connectors, easy to work with, and somewhat easy to buy cables off the shelf.

I don't really know.  I assume from comments that they can be finicky but I've not had any trouble with mine so far.  It seemed like a fairly elegant solution for connecting the two halves considering space limitations.

[HaaTa]

Originally we were going to stick with a TRRS cable, but the usb connection allowed for daisy chains with fewer connectors.

If I wanted to connect more than two halves together with TRRS cables, I'd need two ports per half. But then I'd have to support multiple directions in the protocol (significantly more complicated). I also wanted to stay away from I2C as it's a pain in the ass to do multi-master (I want asynchronous key events, polling over I2C for debouncing is dumb).

Using USB cables makes it a lot easier not to screw up the daisy chain, because you can't physically connect to a computer and be a slave device at the same time.
One could also argue that USB 3.0 cables are better shielded so probably less susceptible to noise (though I'm not using a differential connection, which would take more hardware).

[Data]

Yeah, that makes sense.  It's just an upgrade all around.

[Glod]

**** the TRRS cable, and **** that part TRRS part SJ-43514, most unreliable **** ever

thank you so much for improving on that, its worth upgrading just for that.

[tp4tissue]

**** the TRRS cable, and **** that part TRRS part SJ-43514, most unreliable **** ever

thank you so much for improving on that, its worth upgrading just for that.

1 port of 2 on both my egdxus has a broken.

They're both perma soldered on 1 side now..

[Parak]

Yeah, it's a bit disappointing that the plate doesn't have the cutouts so you can open the switches on the dox.

In case anyone is wondering, the infinity ergodox just like the infinity plate does support opening of the switches due to wider than usual cutouts for Alps switches.

[Findecanor]

If I wanted to connect more than two halves together with TRRS cables, I'd need two ports per half.

Why would you want to? Are there more types of keyboards planned with support for daisy-chaining?

BTW. I considered making a Y-cable for my ErgoDox build. 4 leads for power and USB D+, D-, plus the two I²C, but I couldn't find 6-lead connector that was both small and easy to solder by hand.

[HaaTa]

At minimum, at Numpad is in the works

[jacobolus]

Why would you want to? Are there more types of keyboards planned with support for daisy-chaining?

The microcontrollers are pretty powerful/generic, so it should in theory be possible to plug various other interesting stuff in, (numpad, pointing device, game controller, ...), and add support for them to the main master keyboard section later on. As an example, someone who wants to use a standard 60% size ANSI/QWERTY layout keyboard could add half an ergodox as a separate numpad, under control of the same base firmware. [Assuming that is that a future Infinity 60% board had 2 ports and supported the same kind of daisy chaining.]

[Melvang]

So the issue with the TRRS cable is more having to design around it instead of the cable itself.

[suicidal_orange]

If I wanted to connect more than two halves together with TRRS cables, I'd need two ports per half.

Why would you want to? Are there more types of keyboards planned with support for daisy-chaining?

BTW. I considered making a Y-cable for my ErgoDox build. 4 leads for power and USB D+, D-, plus the two I²C, but I couldn't find 6-lead connector that was both small and easy to solder by hand.

You might like to look at the hirose HR10A-7P-6P which is small and has six connectors, I wouldn't say it's easy as the connectors are pretty close together but they are hand solderable

[Data]

At minimum, at Numpad is in the works

[clickclack123]

LOL! That reaction shot was hilarious, Data. 

[fatchoi]

Why would you want to? Are there more types of keyboards planned with support for daisy-chaining?

The microcontrollers are pretty powerful/generic, so it should in theory be possible to plug various other interesting stuff in, (numpad, pointing device, game controller, ...), and add support for them to the main master keyboard section later on. As an example, someone who wants to use a standard 60% size ANSI/QWERTY layout keyboard could add half an ergodox as a separate numpad, under control of the same base firmware. [Assuming that is that a future Infinity 60% board had 2 ports and supported the same kind of daisy chaining.]

If that supports chaining, I will prefer 2 left half and 1 right half. The pair of left/ right acts as an ordinary Dox, while the extra "left" acts as numpad. This should be pretty cool!

[undisclosed]

@Haata, How soon are Bluetooth and the number pad going to be implemented?

[HaaTa]

If things go well. Maybe end of the year? But it depends on a lot of factors, so I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

[MrRooks]

Just to let you guys know, the LCD is backlit (RGB colors) and we should have the full hand option by the end of the drop. And yes, you will be able to change your order to a full hand if you already ordered the standard and want to change it once that goes live.

Is full hand still planned to be an option? I saw a MD official post that they decided not to do full hand on the first run.

I'm thinking whether I should buy this Infinity Dox. I still have an original Dox only partly assembled.
Or is there more cool features and upgrades on an even more advanced Dox coming later this year?

Struggling whether to join or not.

I'd finish my first dox and test it to make sure that I like it before buying another, if I was in your situation...

Personally, I don't think it's a huge upgrade on the original. Backlighting could be nice, but the lcd is gimmicky, and I'm slightly nervous about the cpu change, since the TMK firmware that I'm using and happy with atm won't work AFAIK. It is a good move to get rid of the TRRS cable.

But the physical layout is the same, so really in use I'd say it'll be pretty much the same (I hope).

I did read somewhere that bluetooth may be in the works for the future. But I actually think bluetooth/wireless is a negative TBH. Extra complexity for no actual gain. Ergodox is not going to be a good portable keyboard. Too big and the two halves would flop around and be a hassle. Plus battery troubles as well.

I asked about TMK on the MD thread and someone mentioned that Hasu ported TMK to the regular Infinity keyboard so with a little convincing maybe he would do it for the Infinity Dox as well.

Perhaps the Ergodox�s greatest contribution is that it�s good enough to be appealing, but obviously flawed enough to compel people to fix it.

Seems a bit harsh to call the Ergodox "obviously flawed". It's obvious that some design compromises were made, eg flat for ease of manufacture and lower price, but any successful product is a compromise.

�Flawed� in the sense that, while the design works well for some people, it�s unusable for many others, even after they give it a serious try for a few months. �Obvious� is in the eye of the beholder. I think many of the problems are obvious, if you think about it from a hand anatomy perspective, and start looking around at people�s hands and the way they use them while typing. For someone who hasn�t thought much about it, the design tradeoffs are probably somewhat harder to analyze. Likewise, for someone who finds the Ergodox to perfect match their preferences, understanding the problems other people have with it might be difficult.

Let me give the Ergodox its due though: as a hobbyist project that grew into a product selling thousands, and as an inspiration for tinkerers, the Ergodox has been a smashing success.

I really don't think the thumb cluster is as big of a problem as some people make it out to be. Remember that the people that are happy with their dox aren't complaining so you won't see them. The vocal crowd are the unhappy ones. I'm sure there are WAY more people who are happy with the dox than not. I personally don't see the problem with the thumb cluster. I have average hands and it fits me great. My girlfriend used it for a few weeks and she loved it, she has small hands. I personally feel that moving the thumb cluster closer would be too cramped. The 1x keys aren't even that hard to use. I have those bound to things I use less frequently but still use, like home, end, pg up etc. I personally don't think the dox is obviously flawed. The only thing I would really change would be staggering the pinky row a little lower but that's more personal preference as my pinkies are a few mm shorter than average.



Side question, does anyone know if the case files will be available? I would like to print one that's not clear. *edit* someone on MD claims the files will be made public once it ships. Wish it was sooner so I could get started but beggars can't be choosers I guess.

[steve.v]

A year with the dox has been a positive experience.  It's not perfect by any means. Flawed? Probably not; could it be improved? Definitely! How? Move the thumb cluster closer. Hands/Thumbs should not need to move, tilt nor stretch to reach the other 4 keys. Naturally human thumbs are only a small distance from the index fingers in its rest state. Stretching is fine; consistently? Not sure. Enjoy what works for you. As for me, dox is for sale, HHKB wins.

[clickclack123]

As for me, dox is for sale, HHKB wins.

Best of luck, I would shoot myself in the head before going back to a non-ergo staggered board.

Having to use them sometimes on other people's machines at work makes me want to vomit. Those are membrane keyboards though. I probably wouldn't vomit with a HHKB.