Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[Snowdog993]

Obviously you don't use AutoCAD!  I'm constantly using F3, F8, F9.

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk

Interesting using Tapatalk on a keyboard forum. I guess the keyboard is finished.

[iri]

Obviously you don't use AutoCAD!  I'm constantly using F3, F8, F9.

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk

Interesting using Tapatalk on a keyboard forum. I guess the keyboard is finished.

Only F3, F8, F9 are working.

[andresteare]

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

2.- There's no point of a two part cable if the keyboard already have a connector for a removable cable

3.- People spend too much time looking for switch wobble, why would it matter if there's no binding and no accidental 2 key presses. Stop complaining because something you notice when looking the keyboard at 5cm distance and pressing a key intentionally way too slow. Like stop looking for imperfections, if people would just type at full speed on the damn thing they wouldn't notice at least 70% of the things they complain about.

4.- The "mechanical" term is stupid, why don't we just differentiate keyboards by  "good keyboards" and "bad keyboards"?.

5.- Most people that think they need full NKRO don't need it, keyboard manufacturers already know how consumers use their keyboard and design the matrix accordingly, and the left side of the matrix often support most of common gaming key combinations and yes, I mean even membrane boards.

6.- Rubber domes are fine and decent rubber domes have a way more pronounced tactility than many modern tactile switches

7.- A great portion of tactile switches you won't notice the tactility when typing at full speed

8.- The is no such thing as "X switches are better for gaming", when gaming people usually bottom keys very firmly and don't notice the tactile event if they are focused on the actual game.

9.- ISO is better than ANSI, the only advantage of ANSI is the key mapping because it's more convenient for programmers, but the physical distribution of keys of ISO is superior, why would you need such a large Left Shift and woud take a slim Enter over a big Enter that is way easier to find with both diagonal and horizontal pinky movement. Anyone that says ANSI is better than ISO is just wrong.

10.- Justifying pointless "competitive" keyboard marketing features (short switch stem, 1000hz polling rate, etc) because "but professional gamers need every advantage" is stupid. Stop, just stop, don't throw money where there's no real value for you.

Sorry for the long rant, needed to get that off me

[azzipa]

@volny i think this is the first justification for f-row that i can support. i really like how you've reimagined the keyboard to meet your needs. i'll likely be making some adjustments after a little more thinking. nice work, and thanks!

Obviously you don't use AutoCAD!  I'm constantly using F3, F8, F9.

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk

you are correct.


edited to eliminate original snarky response.

[Leopard223]

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

2.- There's no point of a two part cable if the keyboard already have a connector for a removable cable

3.- People spend too much time looking for switch wobble, why would it matter if there's no binding and no accidental 2 key presses. Stop complaining because something you notice when looking the keyboard at 5cm distance and pressing a key intentionally way too slow. Like stop looking for imperfections, if people would just type at full speed on the damn thing they wouldn't notice at least 70% of the things they complain about.

4.- The "mechanical" term is stupid, why don't we just differentiate keyboards by  "good keyboards" and "bad keyboards"?.

5.- Most people that think they need full NKRO don't need it, keyboard manufacturers already know how consumers use their keyboard and design the matrix accordingly, and the left side of the matrix often support most of common gaming key combinations and yes, I mean even membrane boards.

6.- Rubber domes are fine and decent rubber domes have a way more pronounced tactility than many modern tactile switches

7.- A great portion of tactile switches you won't notice the tactility when typing at full speed

8.- The is no such thing as "X switches are better for gaming", when gaming people usually bottom keys very firmly and don't notice the tactile event if they are focused on the actual game.

9.- ISO is better than ANSI, the only advantage of ANSI is the key mapping because it's more convenient for programmers, but the physical distribution of keys of ISO is superior, why would you need such a large Left Shift and woud take a slim Enter over a big Enter that is way easier to find with both diagonal and horizontal pinky movement. Anyone that says ANSI is better than ISO is just wrong.

10.- Justifying pointless "competitive" keyboard marketing features (short switch stem, 1000hz polling rate, etc) because "but professional gamers need every advantage" is stupid. Stop, just stop, don't throw money where there's no real value for you.

Sorry for the long rant, needed to get that off me

Big ass enter key is far superior than ANSI or ISO, having space to smash is Devine, sadly no keyboard supports that without ruining the shift keys or the backspace key.

[andresteare]

Sadly I haven't tried Big Ass Enter in a mechanical keyboard, I bet it's epic and great to use

[andresteare]

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

2.- There's no point of a two part cable if the keyboard already have a connector for a removable cable

3.- People spend too much time looking for switch wobble, why would it matter if there's no binding and no accidental 2 key presses. Stop complaining because something you notice when looking the keyboard at 5cm distance and pressing a key intentionally way too slow. Like stop looking for imperfections, if people would just type at full speed on the damn thing they wouldn't notice at least 70% of the things they complain about.

4.- The "mechanical" term is stupid, why don't we just differentiate keyboards by  "good keyboards" and "bad keyboards"?.

5.- Most people that think they need full NKRO don't need it, keyboard manufacturers already know how consumers use their keyboard and design the matrix accordingly, and the left side of the matrix often support most of common gaming key combinations and yes, I mean even membrane boards.

6.- Rubber domes are fine and decent rubber domes have a way more pronounced tactility than many modern tactile switches

7.- A great portion of tactile switches you won't notice the tactility when typing at full speed

8.- The is no such thing as "X switches are better for gaming", when gaming people usually bottom keys very firmly and don't notice the tactile event if they are focused on the actual game.

9.- ISO is better than ANSI, the only advantage of ANSI is the key mapping because it's more convenient for programmers, but the physical distribution of keys of ISO is superior, why would you need such a large Left Shift and woud take a slim Enter over a big Enter that is way easier to find with both diagonal and horizontal pinky movement. Anyone that says ANSI is better than ISO is just wrong.

10.- Justifying pointless "competitive" keyboard marketing features (short switch stem, 1000hz polling rate, etc) because "but professional gamers need every advantage" is stupid. Stop, just stop, don't throw money where there's no real value for you.

Sorry for the long rant, needed to get that off me

Big ass enter key is far superior than ANSI or ISO, having space to smash is Devine, sadly no keyboard supports that without ruining the shift keys or the backspace key.

Check out the Zowie Celeritas, yeah it sacrifies a bit of RShift but still wide enough and with 2u backspace: https://zowie.benq.com/en-ap/product/keyboard/keyboard/celeritas-ii.html

[fohat.digs]

sadly no keyboard supports that without ruining the shift keys or the backspace key.

Yes, thank you. I was never able to articulate it properly. But since your evaluation is accurate, standard-ANSI is the only viable layout for me.

Experience and experimentation have shown me that I typically use the right side of the Left Shift, the right side of Right Shift, and the left side of Backspace.

[Maledicted]

Obviously you don't use AutoCAD!  I'm constantly using F3, F8, F9.

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk

Interesting using Tapatalk on a keyboard forum. I guess the keyboard is finished.

I'm pretty sure there are multiple threads about Tapatalk on here. I think that touchscreens are only one tier above useless (barely) and only use them if there isn't a real computer within a reasonable walking distance.

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

Agreed. MX has run its course.

2.- There's no point of a two part cable if the keyboard already have a connector for a removable cable

Agreed.

3.- People spend too much time looking for switch wobble, why would it matter if there's no binding and no accidental 2 key presses. Stop complaining because something you notice when looking the keyboard at 5cm distance and pressing a key intentionally way too slow. Like stop looking for imperfections, if people would just type at full speed on the damn thing they wouldn't notice at least 70% of the things they complain about.

Agreed.

4.- The "mechanical" term is stupid, why don't we just differentiate keyboards by  "good keyboards" and "bad keyboards"?.

Agreed, but that's what we have. What's good and bad is also subjective anyway though. I think Chyros has a Youtube video on the topic, but I forget its title. I think that mechanical does the job well enough for most applications given that the majority of keyboards available today are still cheap dome boards that feel like typing on wet cardboard.

5.- Most people that think they need full NKRO don't need it, keyboard manufacturers already know how consumers use their keyboard and design the matrix accordingly, and the left side of the matrix often support most of common gaming key combinations and yes, I mean even membrane boards.

Agreed.

6.- Rubber domes are fine and decent rubber domes have a way more pronounced tactility than many modern tactile switches

I agree that some rubber domes are fine. I would even say that I like most rubber domes more than most MX tactiles I have tried. Some of those extremely thin Apple boards are literally worse in my mind than just using a laser-projected keyboard on a desk ... or one of those waterproof roll-up keyboards.

7.- A great portion of tactile switches you won't notice the tactility when typing at full speed

I don't know if it is a great portion, but this is certainly the case in the MX family.

8.- The is no such thing as "X switches are better for gaming", when gaming people usually bottom keys very firmly and don't notice the tactile event if they are focused on the actual game.

I find tactility when gaming to be a little distracting. You may be hitting the same key a lot of times repeatedly and I would rather have a linear that I can just forget about and become totally immersed in the game than to feel and/or hear every single press. Either way, it is all preference.

9.- ISO is better than ANSI, the only advantage of ANSI is the key mapping because it's more convenient for programmers, but the physical distribution of keys of ISO is superior, why would you need such a large Left Shift and woud take a slim Enter over a big Enter that is way easier to find with both diagonal and horizontal pinky movement. Anyone that says ANSI is better than ISO is just wrong.

I don't use left shift at all, so I would agree with you if my preference were all that mattered. It seems like I may be in the minority in using the right shift 100% of the time. I can't say I would like for left shift to be so tiny if I actually used it outside of gaming. I find ISO enter to be totally useless and similarly have never gotten accustomed to the XT layout and have not purchased a beamspring keyboard, in part, due to this. I tend to hit enter on the leftmost edge. Look at the way the keys are staggered on the right side of an ANSI board. Shift is longest, enter is a little shorter, | is a little shorter, and the original delete key was only one unit. I would argue that this setup is actually ideal (with or without the amazing big ass enter key). Maybe it is just my lanky fingers, but it seems more natural to me to stretch my pinky further to the right the further up the board I move. With ISO, I miss enter entirely ... but I don't mind a single unit delete key at all because of how far it is up the board.

Maybe this has more to do with muscle memory than natural ergonomics, maybe there's overlap of both, but I can't do those vertical enter keys.

10.- Justifying pointless "competitive" keyboard marketing features (short switch stem, 1000hz polling rate, etc) because "but professional gamers need every advantage" is stupid. Stop, just stop, don't throw money where there's no real value for you.

I agree, but I think these things mostly exist because of "gaming" keyboard manufacturers trying to hype up some new nonsense to convince people to buy their product. MX red does the job just fine (besides maybe a little too light of springs if you ask me), and brands like Corsair can't just sell the same old MX red boards forever.

Sorry for the long rant, needed to get that off me

There's a lot of nonsense to justifiably rant about in these regards. 

Sadly I haven't tried Big Ass Enter in a mechanical keyboard, I bet it's epic and great to use

It is, especially with something particularly thunderous beneath it, like capacitive buckling spring, Alps SKCM, or box thick clicks.

[Leopard223]

sadly no keyboard supports that without ruining the shift keys or the backspace key.

Yes, thank you. I was never able to articulate it properly. But since your evaluation is accurate, standard-ANSI is the only viable layout for me.

Experience and experimentation have shown me that I typically use the right side of the Left Shift, the right side of Right Shift, and the left side of Backspace.

Yeah that's why I made a makeshift big ass enter key (I'll call it BAEK) on my 60%, I ordered a BAEK meant for a steelseries KB, cut off the extra weird pin and glued a stem to have it sit on the \| switch for support, it isn't perfect, I gotta tune it more, but BAEK is miles better than ANSI or the ISO layout.
Those keys at least how I see it, we're meant to be aggresivly reached, that's why they're big, shrinking them and adding keys next to them kind of goes against their point IMO, your experience is exactly how I feel.

Sadly I haven't tried Big Ass Enter in a mechanical keyboard, I bet it's epic and great to use

The space to smash it really convinient, I found myself hitting the \| key often.

Check out the Zowie Celeritas, yeah it sacrifies a bit of RShift but still wide enough and with 2u backspace: https://zowie.benq.com/en-ap/product/keyboard/keyboard/celeritas-ii.html

Funny you mention it, I have this exact keyboard, switches are not the best but they're pretty smooth and have zero binding' the Big ass enter key is working fantastically, altough with a unique config, an regular ansi layout with extra 1u stabs for support, so changing keycaps is not valid.

[andresteare]

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

Agreed. MX has run its course.

And the level of refinement they got with the MX design is impressive, imagine if all those efforts go for example on a Matias switch, we could get a really impressive simplified alps switch, or any design really.

[Cosmin]

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

Agreed. MX has run its course.

And the level of refinement they got with the MX design is impressive, imagine if all those efforts go for example on a Matias switch, we could get a really impressive simplified alps switch, or any design really.

The MX design is after all a compatibility thing. Designing and implementing a completely new switch would invalidate the huge amounts of keycaps available new and used, as well as PCBs (and PCB designs). The refinement that is giving us Zeal switches and Wilba PCBs whilst still maintaining compatibility far outweighs any new switch design in terms of convenience and usability.

What would a new switch design bring that would off-set the above disadvantages? I'm genuinely curious.



BTW a note on cables with two connectors - it's an aesthetic thing. From a usability point of view they're useless, but the hobby isn't really all about usability, otherwise we'd all be using 20$ membrane boards. Except the full programmability that comes with custom firmwares like QMK, I would never be able to use a keyboard efficiently without being able to remap stuff and use layers.

[Maledicted]

And the level of refinement they got with the MX design is impressive, imagine if all those efforts go for example on a Matias switch, we could get a really impressive simplified alps switch, or any design really.

That would be great, but I think Matias needs to do a better job of clearing their name first. I have literally had 0 problems with their Gaote-manufactured switches. I've been using this V80 with their "quiet click" switches, a clicky variant at home, and the linear variant off and on at another location for weeks straight now, and I have used 8+ Matias mini boards off and on for over a year otherwise to try to break them. Two of them ride around in my vehicles (one in each car), sliding around with random Chromebook parts on the floor when I'm not using them with my android head units. I haven't had a problem with any of them outside of some chatter on the very first board I bought new just over a year ago. That went away with use within the first week. A coworker now uses that board daily at home.

Matias shouldn't be resigned to selling boards to nostalgic Apple hipsters. I wouldn't be surprised if some issues remain, but the currently-manufactured Gaote switches seem to be much more reliable than the old Forward ones. I'm not sure what they could do to improve the sound and feel though besides maybe materials. I don't know that they're ever going to be quite as nice as Alps SKCM, and they're already better than everything else in mass production today in my opinion.

The MX design is after all a compatibility thing. Designing and implementing a completely new switch would invalidate the huge amounts of keycaps available new and used, as well as PCBs (and PCB designs). The refinement that is giving us Zeal switches and Wilba PCBs whilst still maintaining compatibility far outweighs any new switch design in terms of convenience and usability.

What would a new switch design bring that would off-set the above disadvantages? I'm genuinely curious.

I almost never use MX (MX red for gaming, since linears are just linears). The only MX-compatible switches I use for typing are box jade and navy. Everything else is either some ancient dead switch type, or Matias (and sometimes Topre if I'm in the mood for tactiles), because they all just feel and sound better in every way. I can't customize them every possible way I may like, and I don't care, because the overall experience is a lot better to me either way.

MX compatibility is the standard because MX was what was most available when mechanical keyboards started to become popular again. I don't think there's any argument to be made to not abandon MX compatibility if an entirely different mechanism seems totally superior to you, especially if doing so means a shift in demand (and thus eventually creating availability) of alternative customization options for the other platform. We've already got optical and hall effect switches that can be easily hot swapped without any concern for physical contacts of any kind, meaning that eliminates the vulnerabilities of MX hot swap sockets. Not only are these switches inherently smoother and more reliable than MX due to a lack of physical contacts, but unlike a physical contact (which is either on or off) they can also track slider location at every point in travel. You can set your own actuation point or even use keys like WASD like you would an analogue stick or triggers on a console, in order to easily control just how fast you want to move ... which is literally one of the only things that have bothered me to no end about PC gaming. You can even use them to carry out different tasks based upon how far down you press the slider.

Even if you would want to say that MX offers you something you could never get anywhere else, there's very little it does exceptionally well. All of this concern for compatibility holds back meaningful development and adoption of alternatives, although we already know that Kaihua was able to make one of the best clicky switch mechanisms ever designed 100% MX compatible in terms of boards and caps.

[andresteare]

 

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

Agreed. MX has run its course.

And the level of refinement they got with the MX design is impressive, imagine if all those efforts go for example on a Matias switch, we could get a really impressive simplified alps switch, or any design really.

The MX design is after all a compatibility thing. Designing and implementing a completely new switch would invalidate the huge amounts of keycaps available new and used, as well as PCBs (and PCB designs). The refinement that is giving us Zeal switches and Wilba PCBs whilst still maintaining compatibility far outweighs any new switch design in terms of convenience and usability.

What would a new switch design bring that would off-set the above disadvantages? I'm genuinely curious.

Compatibility issues will always be a thing when trying new designs in any market, so it's a risk that sooner or later you'll have to take in order to innovate.

IMO the 2 main things that the MX design can't offer no matter how you hack it are:
 1) Sound: for meaty bassy acoustics you need room inside the switch or and open switch and handle the acoustic with the case of the keyboard (razer switch for example), but the second is tricky because you can't limit all keyboards to one shape and material standard. The MX switch design is super tight with no room for acoustic and will always have
a plasticky higher pitch sound than more roomy designs . Examples of good bassy sound are Alps and many very old key switches that are no longer viable since they were insanely tall. However Alps like or any squared boxy design are still possible and viable for current keyboards.

2) Tactility: while I'm aware that Zeal is experimenting with t alps-inspired tactile leaf, MX way of achieving tactility is limited to round tactile event, since the tactile factor is in the slider there's no way to provide  a super sharp Tactility that a tactile leaf (Alps, SMK second gen, etc) can provide, sure you cna make the tactility stringer, but not sharp because you need a progressive curve in the slider to, well.. slide.

The only sharp tactile MX compatible switches are Kailh Box clicky switches, but they made it by implementing the click bar, (btw I love how Kailh is always experimenting new concept and bringing innovation to this market with box switches, kailh notebook switches, choc and other stuff)

[Maledicted]

The only sharp tactile MX compatible switches are Kailh Box clicky switches, but they made it by implementing the click bar, (btw I love how Kailh is always experimenting new concept and bringing innovation to this market with box switches, kailh notebook switches, choc and other stuff)

I don't think this can be overstated. Kaihua and Gaote seem to be the underdog superstars of the current market in my mind. They keep trying new things, and they seem to at least come up with good results more times than they fail to do so, even when few people seem to notice.

[N8N]

Obviously you don't use AutoCAD!  I'm constantly using F3, F8, F9.

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk

Interesting using Tapatalk on a keyboard forum. I guess the keyboard is finished.

Hah.  I've been spending 10+ hours a day, 7 days a week lately in front of a PC due to work... and no I often don't have time to take a break and check forums.  Sometimes the only time I get to check forums is either last thing before I go to sleep in bed or on the couch because I've sacrificed sleep for hockey or something like that.

[Volny]

I don't use left shift at all............

Not even when you "Save As..."? Or crouch/sprint/prone/etc. in a game?

[NoteMakoti]

Gonna be real here and say that getting mad at Glorious for reposting a GMMK Pro with cloned Olivia keycaps is silly, especially when you consider that it’s just a colorway, the colors aren’t even 1:1 to the original, it’s made out of different materials with different legends, most of the popular group buy sets for years were just vintage clones, and GMK Olivia isn’t even something you can just buy.

The community is quick to chase down “bootlegs”, but the water those bootlegs are in is so murky that it’s hard to even know where they stand.

[Maledicted]

Obviously you don't use AutoCAD!  I'm constantly using F3, F8, F9.

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk

Interesting using Tapatalk on a keyboard forum. I guess the keyboard is finished.

Hah.  I've been spending 10+ hours a day, 7 days a week lately in front of a PC due to work... and no I often don't have time to take a break and check forums.  Sometimes the only time I get to check forums is either last thing before I go to sleep in bed or on the couch because I've sacrificed sleep for hockey or something like that.

I use a real keyboard on the couch, and in bed.

I don't use left shift at all............

Not even when you "Save As..."? Or crouch/sprint/prone/etc. in a game?

I think I mentioned that I use left shift in games, since that's the only thing that makes sense in that scenario. When normally typing, I only use the right shift key.

I don't really work in documents that are saved offline at all anymore. The school district I work in uses Google Docs, so everything is saved automatically. I do use the left shift for the exact same hotkey to take screenshots in Firefox, however.

Gonna be real here and say that getting mad at Glorious for reposting a GMMK Pro with cloned Olivia keycaps is silly, especially when you consider that it’s just a colorway, the colors aren’t even 1:1 to the original, it’s made out of different materials with different legends, most of the popular group buy sets for years were just vintage clones, and GMK Olivia isn’t even something you can just buy.

The community is quick to chase down “bootlegs”, but the water those bootlegs are in is so murky that it’s hard to even know where they stand.

I don't know why anybody would ever care, other than actually encouraging "bootlegs" because it introduces competition, which motivates competitors to both reduce prices and make improvements to outpace their rivals.

[MIGHTY CHICKEN]

I don't know why anybody would ever care, other than actually encouraging "bootlegs" because it introduces competition, which motivates competitors to both reduce prices and make improvements to outpace their rivals.

Nicely said, with all the "bootlegs" coming out and the multiple manus making the same copies, some of them have gotten so good for the price I may as well get the fake.

[Chalkboard]

To the "bootleg" thing with GMK keycaps, here's my unpopular opinion:

They aren't bootlegs/clones/knockoffs/copies at all. To call them one of those is to assume that these low-cost sets are just cheaper versions of the same GMK sets. However, this argument incorrectly assumes that the original GMK set and the low-cost version are interchangeable and therefore hurt the original designers. In fact, the low-cost sets are distinct products for one very importance reason: ABS vs. PBT. The fact that these low-cost sets are run on PBT, to me, makes them something that was not offered previously; something new that stands on its own. I personally do not like ABS and would never buy a GMK set because they are ABS. Nothing about the existence of these low-cost PBT sets is causing me to not buy the GMK set because I wouldn't buy the GMK set in the first place. It's the designers that are ignoring running their sets on cherry profile PBT that is the main deterrent. Some designers re-run colorways on KAT, SA, DSA, etc. but still ignore cherry profile PBT. If someone else is going to do it, I will support those people instead.

[ideus]

To the "bootleg" thing with GMK keycaps, here's my unpopular opinion:

They aren't bootlegs/clones/knockoffs/copies at all. To call them one of those is to assume that these low-cost sets are just cheaper versions of the same GMK sets. However, this argument incorrectly assumes that the original GMK set and the low-cost version are interchangeable and therefore hurt the original designers. In fact, the low-cost sets are distinct products for one very importance reason: ABS vs. PBT. The fact that these low-cost sets are run on PBT, to me, makes them something that was not offered previously; something new that stands on its own. I personally do not like ABS and would never buy a GMK set because they are ABS. Nothing about the existence of these low-cost PBT sets is causing me to not buy the GMK set because I wouldn't buy the GMK set in the first place. It's the designers that are ignoring running their sets on cherry profile PBT that is the main deterrent. Some designers re-run colorways on KAT, SA, DSA, etc. but still ignore cherry profile PBT. If someone else is going to do it, I will support those people instead.

This opinion is more confusing than unpopular.

[Volny]

To the "bootleg" thing with GMK keycaps, here's my unpopular opinion:

They aren't bootlegs/clones/knockoffs/copies at all. To call them one of those is to assume that these low-cost sets are just cheaper versions of the same GMK sets. However, this argument incorrectly assumes that the original GMK set and the low-cost version are interchangeable and therefore hurt the original designers. In fact, the low-cost sets are distinct products for one very importance reason: ABS vs. PBT. The fact that these low-cost sets are run on PBT, to me, makes them something that was not offered previously; something new that stands on its own. I personally do not like ABS and would never buy a GMK set because they are ABS. Nothing about the existence of these low-cost PBT sets is causing me to not buy the GMK set because I wouldn't buy the GMK set in the first place. It's the designers that are ignoring running their sets on cherry profile PBT that is the main deterrent. Some designers re-run colorways on KAT, SA, DSA, etc. but still ignore cherry profile PBT. If someone else is going to do it, I will support those people instead.

This opinion is more confusing than unpopular.

The logic makes sense to me (though I don't entirely agree with it). I guess the point is that making a PBT clone of an ABS set is more like an 'unofficial port' than a 'knockoff' (though I would stipulate that this logic only applies if the PBT version is genuinely high quality). Kind of like if a PC or Linux developer creates a copy of a program that was previously only available on Mac. Still legally questionable and probably opportunistic. But arguably not particularly unethical, since PC or Linux users were never going to purchase the original Mac program anyway. So it fills a previously unfilled niche, rather than trying to undercut an existing one.

Where the logic probably fails is that not everyone will be so passionately against ABS that they'd never consider buying it. Some people would presumably be fine with either ABS or PBT, and would buy the PBT version simply because it's cheaper than the GMK original, in which case the GMK set is losing real sales potential.

I think I mentioned that I use left shift in games, since that's the only thing that makes sense in that scenario. When normally typing, I only use the right shift key.

I don't really work in documents that are saved offline at all anymore. The school district I work in uses Google Docs, so everything is saved automatically. I do use the left shift for the exact same hotkey to take screenshots in Firefox, however.

Ah yes, you did. The other hotkey I suspect you might be likely to use a lot is Lctrl-Lshift-Z for Redo. (Yes, some programs use Ctrl-Y for Redo, but not for long, because developers who force their customers to do Ctrl-Y for redo will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes).

I myself use a few programs with a gazillion features that I need to frequently access (eg. Photoshop), so I probably use Lshift in two dozen different shortcuts. Often I end up mapping things to Ctrl-Alt-Shift-[letter] because it's just easier to remember to press all the modifiers than trying to remember whether it's Ctrl-Alt or Shift-Ctrl or Shift-Alt  (and single-modifier shortcuts are taken already) I don't even know which shift I use when typing, but for me typing isn't even the main function of a keyboard (probably another unpopular opinion!). I use my keyboard non-stop all day, and only a little of that is bona fide 'typing' (ie. composing long strings of prose). I suspect many people would be similar to me, even if they don't tend to think of their keyboard in that way.

[shs0913]

in my view.....
1 : It's personal taste but it's good to adjust. it's very simple design.(Portable)
2 : 2 I mostly agree..

[Chalkboard]

Where the logic probably fails is that not everyone will be so passionately against ABS that they'd never consider buying it.

Isn't that the point of this thread though? Unpopular keyboard opinions

[alertArchitect]

Ah yes, you did. The other hotkey I suspect you might be likely to use a lot is Lctrl-Lshift-Z for Redo. (Yes, some programs use Ctrl-Y for Redo, but not for long, because developers who force their customers to do Ctrl-Y for redo will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes).

I myself use a few programs with a gazillion features that I need to frequently access (eg. Photoshop), so I probably use Lshift in two dozen different shortcuts. Often I end up mapping things to Ctrl-Alt-Shift-[letter] because it's just easier to remember to press all the modifiers than trying to remember whether it's Ctrl-Alt or Shift-Ctrl or Shift-Alt  (and single-modifier shortcuts are taken already) I don't even know which shift I use when typing, but for me typing isn't even the main function of a keyboard (probably another unpopular opinion!). I use my keyboard non-stop all day, and only a little of that is bona fide 'typing' (ie. composing long strings of prose). I suspect many people would be similar to me, even if they don't tend to think of their keyboard in that way.

Agree with this, as someone who both frequently uses LShift for both typing and for keyboard shortcuts, and as someone who uses LShift for soundboard macros when I'm doing some memes with friends over Discord since it's a little less frequently used.

[azzipa]

Where the logic probably fails is that not everyone will be so passionately against ABS that they'd never consider buying it.

Isn't that the point of this thread though? Unpopular keyboard opinions

other reasons to be against abs: the primary vendor has ridiculously long production times, prices significantly higher than alternatives, (recently) poor quality control, and "gatekeeper" approach for colorways with no clear/defined ownership. there are plenty of reasons to be "passionately against abs," assuming you don't mind key shine and the slippery feel.

[Maledicted]

Where the logic probably fails is that not everyone will be so passionately against ABS that they'd never consider buying it.

Isn't that the point of this thread though? Unpopular keyboard opinions

other reasons to be against abs: the primary vendor has ridiculously long production times, prices significantly higher than alternatives, (recently) poor quality control, and "gatekeeper" approach for colorways with no clear/defined ownership. there are plenty of reasons to be "passionately against abs," assuming you don't mind key shine and the slippery feel.

I am passionately against anti-competitive monopolies. I don't really care otherwise myself. They're keycaps ... injection molded in different colors, they're not some revolutionary new design that should be protected by copyright law.

[ideus]

Where the logic probably fails is that not everyone will be so passionately against ABS that they'd never consider buying it.

Isn't that the point of this thread though? Unpopular keyboard opinions

The dislike for ABS is popular. Many have strong sentiments about its tendency to shine.

[jamster]

I just don't like GMK all that much.

The caps look really nice, but on they made the two keyboards I've put them on feel worse.

[tp4tissue]

I just don't like GMK all that much.

The caps look really nice, but on they made the two keyboards I've put them on feel worse.

Hrrrmr.....hmrrmr... Check  the smoothness of the cap stem. maybe that's why.

[jamster]

I just don't like GMK all that much.

The caps look really nice, but on they made the two keyboards I've put them on feel worse.

Hrrrmr.....hmrrmr... Check  the smoothness of the cap stem. maybe that's why.

Far as I can tell, they seem to have slightly more mass than cheap PBT, so they affect the feel of the stroke.

[ideus]

I just don't like GMK all that much.

The caps look really nice, but on they made the two keyboards I've put them on feel worse.

Hrrrmr.....hmrrmr... Check  the smoothness of the cap stem. maybe that's why.

Far as I can tell, they seem to have slightly more mass than cheap PBT, so they affect the feel of the stroke.

I can concur with this. Particularly the white on black. However, my experience is based on OG Cherry caps, therefore, I really cannot tell if it happens with GMK's.

[tp4tissue]

I just don't like GMK all that much.

The caps look really nice, but on they made the two keyboards I've put them on feel worse.

Hrrrmr.....hmrrmr... Check  the smoothness of the cap stem. maybe that's why.

Far as I can tell, they seem to have slightly more mass than cheap PBT, so they affect the feel of the stroke.

I can concur with this. Particularly the white on black. However, my experience is based on OG Cherry caps, therefore, I really cannot tell if it happens with GMK's.

Increasing spring by 10g should fix that.

[Altis]

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

2.- There's no point of a two part cable if the keyboard already have a connector for a removable cable

3.- People spend too much time looking for switch wobble, why would it matter if there's no binding and no accidental 2 key presses. Stop complaining because something you notice when looking the keyboard at 5cm distance and pressing a key intentionally way too slow. Like stop looking for imperfections, if people would just type at full speed on the damn thing they wouldn't notice at least 70% of the things they complain about.

4.- The "mechanical" term is stupid, why don't we just differentiate keyboards by  "good keyboards" and "bad keyboards"?.

5.- Most people that think they need full NKRO don't need it, keyboard manufacturers already know how consumers use their keyboard and design the matrix accordingly, and the left side of the matrix often support most of common gaming key combinations and yes, I mean even membrane boards.

6.- Rubber domes are fine and decent rubber domes have a way more pronounced tactility than many modern tactile switches

7.- A great portion of tactile switches you won't notice the tactility when typing at full speed

8.- The is no such thing as "X switches are better for gaming", when gaming people usually bottom keys very firmly and don't notice the tactile event if they are focused on the actual game.

9.- ISO is better than ANSI, the only advantage of ANSI is the key mapping because it's more convenient for programmers, but the physical distribution of keys of ISO is superior, why would you need such a large Left Shift and woud take a slim Enter over a big Enter that is way easier to find with both diagonal and horizontal pinky movement. Anyone that says ANSI is better than ISO is just wrong.

10.- Justifying pointless "competitive" keyboard marketing features (short switch stem, 1000hz polling rate, etc) because "but professional gamers need every advantage" is stupid. Stop, just stop, don't throw money where there's no real value for you.

Sorry for the long rant, needed to get that off me

6 - Absolutely... I always found it funny when "tech reviewers/vloggers" would go on about how MX Browns and so on were better because of tactility when it's far less pronounced than many laptop/scissor rubber domes, especially, especially when combined with 7...

7 - For sure. All switches linearize the faster you push through the stroke. Rubber domes have a very long force curve hump rather than a tactile notch midway through the stroke. Topre is my favorite for tactility because of that... they feel tactile at full typing speeds. Even buckling springs can start to feel linear when you are typing quickly enough.

8 - The main exception I would make is the weighting causing fatigue. I get way less hand cramping/pain/fatigue when using light linear switches than with heavier ones.

9 - Here in Canada, I often come across French-Canadian ISO-ish keyboards. I wish they'd put the accent keys outboard of the shift keys like the Fn key on the HHKB... I struggle to adapt to the shift keys being further out. Heck, even replace the CapsLock with two accent keys would be preferable to me.

10 - It's sad but they do it because it sells. Most of the "tech reviewers/vloggers" just repeat the marketing material, and the more there is, the more they hype it, the more it sells. The difference between the "fastest" and normal registering keyboards is, in my opinion, probably undetectable in gaming.

[Leopard223]

I don't think this can be overstated. Kaihua and Gaote seem to be the underdog superstars of the current market in my mind. They keep trying new things, and they seem to at least come up with good results more times than they fail to do so, even when few people seem to notice.

Kaihua is the real MVP of the MK community this days

[azzipa]

graphics in signatures are completely obnoxious and distracting when reading a thread (not sure this one is "unpopular" but there are way too many people who think this is ok)


edit: apologies, ideus, not directed at you (specifically). and not even directed at this thread; mostly bugs me if a read an IC/GB thread. also, just me sh*t talking before i had enough coffee

[ideus]

I just don't like GMK all that much.

The caps look really nice, but on they made the two keyboards I've put them on feel worse.

Hrrrmr.....hmrrmr... Check  the smoothness of the cap stem. maybe that's why.

Far as I can tell, they seem to have slightly more mass than cheap PBT, so they affect the feel of the stroke.

I can concur with this. Particularly the white on black. However, my experience is based on OG Cherry caps, therefore, I really cannot tell if it happens with GMK's.

Increasing spring by 10g should fix that.

Dear TP4, in my case, it is not an issue; but, instead, it is a feature, that I like.

[N8N]

To the "bootleg" thing with GMK keycaps, here's my unpopular opinion:

They aren't bootlegs/clones/knockoffs/copies at all. To call them one of those is to assume that these low-cost sets are just cheaper versions of the same GMK sets. However, this argument incorrectly assumes that the original GMK set and the low-cost version are interchangeable and therefore hurt the original designers. In fact, the low-cost sets are distinct products for one very importance reason: ABS vs. PBT. The fact that these low-cost sets are run on PBT, to me, makes them something that was not offered previously; something new that stands on its own. I personally do not like ABS and would never buy a GMK set because they are ABS. Nothing about the existence of these low-cost PBT sets is causing me to not buy the GMK set because I wouldn't buy the GMK set in the first place. It's the designers that are ignoring running their sets on cherry profile PBT that is the main deterrent. Some designers re-run colorways on KAT, SA, DSA, etc. but still ignore cherry profile PBT. If someone else is going to do it, I will support those people instead.

I agree with this post.  I sadly learned really quickly after putting a near new set of Cherry white on black doubleshots on a keyboard the difference between ABS and PBT.  The former were destroyed in about a year, not only completely shiny which might have been OK, but the keys I hit with my pinky actually have grooves in them from my fingernails (the way I hit them, it's unavoidable even if they're trimmed close, and my nails are very hard and fast growing.)  The Imsto PBTs that I replaced them with are still on that board 10 years later.  so I too am in the PBT or nothing camp, although I haven't tried a set of POM.  Are those even made anymore?

[Mikhail]

1.- Probably unpopular: all MX design based switch at any price point sound bad or meh at best, with a very high pitch plasticky sound and keyboards won't sound great again until manufacturers move away from the MX design an develop a new switch with way more room inside the switch in contrast to Cherry's tight housing

6.- Rubber domes are fine and decent rubber domes have a way more pronounced tactility than many modern tactile switches

8.- The is no such thing as "X switches are better for gaming", when gaming people usually bottom keys very firmly and don't notice the tactile event if they are focused on the actual game.

9.- ISO is better than ANSI, the only advantage of ANSI is the key mapping because it's more convenient for programmers, but the physical distribution of keys of ISO is superior, why would you need such a large Left Shift and woud take a slim Enter over a big Enter that is way easier to find with both diagonal and horizontal pinky movement. Anyone that says ANSI is better than ISO is just wrong.

1. I had lubed linear Space Invaders and not notice any extra good sound. Plateless linear cherry with thick caps sound deeper. In the other hand i like the slits idea from pine alps - plastics thing that damp upstrokes and don't give mushy.
6. Agree. Any tactile cherry is ridiculous  because of backtravel.
8. So silents is better for gaming)
9. For typing position ISO enter is better for me, but for right hand on apple trackpad position is easer to reach ansi enter and hhkb backspace)

[Faceman76]

I'm heavy handed and my fingers slip terribly on worn ABS caps. Plus shiny caps are awful as they look like someone with greasy hands used the keyboard...

Why use a Win Key Less board on a Windows PC?  You're missing out on some great shortcuts.

Linear switches are boring. Tactile or clicky are where it's at, but it can't be any old tactile or clicky switch.  I'm a big fan of Kailh's BOX switches with heavier springs. 

No F Row, No Arrows, No Number Pad=No Deal. I use old mainframes and Excel a lot, swapping layers would slow me down too much, so I need something with 100ish keys. 1800 appears to be the best comprise for those who still need a full size board and want a slightly smaller form factor.  I own four from TKC.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Volny]

All keyboards are stupid.

Did I win the thread? 

[NoteMakoti]

All keyboards are stupid.

Did I win the thread? 

An extreme opinion, but utterly unassailable.

[fohat.digs]

my fingers slip terribly on worn ABS caps. Plus shiny caps are awful as they look like someone with greasy hands used the keyboard

This is my opinion also.

[Maledicted]

I'm heavy handed and my fingers slip terribly on worn ABS caps. Plus shiny caps are awful as they look like someone with greasy hands used the keyboard...

I'm also heavy handed and my fingers do not slip unless I want them to, which I often find to be an advantage of them being slick. They do look like they're greasy though at first glance.

Why use a Win Key Less board on a Windows PC?  You're missing out on some great shortcuts.

Agreed.

Linear switches are boring. Tactile or clicky are where it's at, but it can't be any old tactile or clicky switch.  I'm a big fan of Kailh's BOX switches with heavier springs.

 

All keyboards are stupid.

Did I win the thread? 

An extreme opinion, but utterly unassailable.

Maybe not unassailable. Stupid as opposed to what alternative? I can type a lot faster, and more articulately, than I can speak and be understood. I can type a lot faster than I can write as well. Touchscreens are literally useless by comparison in my opinion.

Thus, I would say that keyboards are literally the most efficient form of communication in most scenarios.

If the argument is that building a community around the feel and sound of various keyboards, from the perspective of the keyboard as a tool, then yeah ... they're stupid.

[Volny]

I was joking, of course. After reading post after post of 'unpopular' opinions that everyone (myself included) seemed to mostly agree with, I thought I'd lay down the gauntlet with a genuinely unpopular one 

(though if we're going by sentience and raw intellectual prowess, I guess the statement is pretty unassailable )

I share the opinion that keyboards provide the best form of communication. Though it depends on your type of mentality. I know a bunch of people who are skilled and interesting conversationalists in person, but seem to lose 30 IQ points as soon as the written word makes an appearance, barely being able to scramble two sentences together. I myself am the opposite and can express myself much more clearly and thoughtfully in the written word than I can in the spoken word.

Touch screen typing is horrible, though sometimes a necessary evil. Laptop keyboards on the other hand are an unnecessary evil as far as I'm concerned. I've never met a laptop I didn't hate using, and that includes my own.

[andresteare]

11.- Rubber domes are reliable as hell, I've never seen  a rubber dome keyboard fail, with the exception of liquid spill or failing usb cable, which can kill any keyboard and of course you heard more stories of it happening in a rubber done keyboard since most computer uses them, more samples, higher amount of specific results. Like seriously, worst case scenario sometimes the traces in the membrane starts failing because of oxidation but that thing takes at least a decade in a normal environment, if it happens at all. Meanwhile you can see thousands of post about a failing discrete switch which is the minority of keyboards.

[MIGHTY CHICKEN]

11.- Rubber domes are reliable as hell, I've never seen  a rubber dome keyboard fail, with the exception of liquid spill or failing usb cable, which can kill any keyboard and of course you heard more stories of it happening in a rubber done keyboard since most computer uses them, more samples, higher amount of specific results. Like seriously, worst case scenario sometimes the traces in the membrane starts failing because of oxidation but that thing takes at least a decade in a normal environment, if it happens at all. Meanwhile you can see thousands of post about a failing discrete switch which is the minority of keyboards.

Well yes, cheap board designed to save cost last forever bs
but can you put gmk and thousands of bucks of artisans on a normal rubber dome (cheap dell 5 dollar ones)

[Maledicted]

but can you put gmk and thousands of bucks of artisans on a normal rubber dome (cheap dell 5 dollar ones)

I don't care about either of those things anyway myself.

[andresteare]

11.- Rubber domes are reliable as hell, I've never seen  a rubber dome keyboard fail, with the exception of liquid spill or failing usb cable, which can kill any keyboard and of course you heard more stories of it happening in a rubber done keyboard since most computer uses them, more samples, higher amount of specific results. Like seriously, worst case scenario sometimes the traces in the membrane starts failing because of oxidation but that thing takes at least a decade in a normal environment, if it happens at all. Meanwhile you can see thousands of post about a failing discrete switch which is the minority of keyboards.

Well yes, cheap board designed to save cost last forever bs
but can you put gmk and thousands of bucks of artisans on a normal rubber dome (cheap dell 5 dollar ones)

Personally I don't care about that, but if you like it that's fine