Author Topic: 150wpm+  (Read 28457 times)

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Offline SUPER432

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150wpm+
« on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 00:06:52 »
Not sure if this is the right subforum, but...

So, I type about 110-120wpm on average and noticed some extreme 10fastfinger scores on here.

Anyone who types 150wpm+ regularly? If so I'd be curious if you made some conscious effort to increase speed at some point, and if so, how did you go about it? My accuracy above 130wpm goes to hell.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 00:17:51 »
I'm pretty sure there's some cheats.
I can only manage 80wpm sustained

Offline SUPER432

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 00:36:34 »
I'm sure, but there's definitely people who can type 200wpm legitimately.

Offline davkol

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 04:34:25 »
Some people are just faster, that's it. They're born like that. Of course, training and practice help, but only to certain extent.

When I was in high school, I was occasionally asked to go to a running competition... and I was always in the top 20 (out of 50–100), although I didn't have a coach or a training plan... I didn't even go running regularly.

On the other hand, I've never been able to get past 80 wpm (or 60 apm in SC:BW); I guess got past 50 wpm only thanks to switch to Colemak and symmetrical keyboards.

Offline viowastaken

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 05:04:03 »
Some people are just faster, that's it. They're born like that. Of course, training and practice help, but only to certain extent.

When I was in high school, I was occasionally asked to go to a running competition... and I was always in the top 20 (out of 50–100), although I didn't have a coach or a training plan... I didn't even go running regularly.

On the other hand, I've never been able to get past 80 wpm (or 60 apm in SC:BW); I guess got past 50 wpm only thanks to switch to Colemak and symmetrical keyboards.

I can pretty regularly knock out somewhere between 120-130WPM on the 10fastfingers test thing, even on my laptop.
It really boils down to luck of the draw in the words that are picked, and also if you mess up or not. For me, I get so thrown off when i make a mistake that it can really botch the whole attempt.

I have 200-225 APM in sc2 normally.
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 14:00:15 »
Not sure if this is the right subforum, but...

So, I type about 110-120wpm on average and noticed some extreme 10fastfinger scores on here.

Anyone who types 150wpm+ regularly? If so I'd be curious if you made some conscious effort to increase speed at some point, and if so, how did you go about it? My accuracy above 130wpm goes to hell.

It requires a lot of practice. I started my switch to Dvorak last November, with a forced month break due to not having a computer. I would say that on average I practiced for about an hour a day a day since then, practicing up to three hours sometimes when I learned. I started at about 90 wpm on Qwerty, and within three months, I reached 100 wpm on Dvorak.
Constant practice is required. I need to find my flow when I get to the higher 140's, which is mostly pressing the next key before I release the first one, like a wave.

I'm certain that given a few months more, I'll be typing 150+. But again, I'll be practicing a lot. I've been doing it in conjunction with fencing, which together really hurts my wrists and fingers, not helped by me using a floating wrist rather than resting. Just need to get good at visualizing and making the words in your mind before you finish typing them.

Some people are just faster, that's it. They're born like that. Of course, training and practice help, but only to certain extent.

When I was in high school, I was occasionally asked to go to a running competition... and I was always in the top 20 (out of 50–100), although I didn't have a coach or a training plan... I didn't even go running regularly.

On the other hand, I've never been able to get past 80 wpm (or 60 apm in SC:BW); I guess got past 50 wpm only thanks to switch to Colemak and symmetrical keyboards.

I can pretty regularly knock out somewhere between 120-130WPM on the 10fastfingers test thing, even on my laptop.
It really boils down to luck of the draw in the words that are picked, and also if you mess up or not. For me, I get so thrown off when i make a mistake that it can really botch the whole attempt.

I have 200-225 APM in sc2 normally.

That's an issue which many people face. I've been getting rid of it somewhat, but you can't have it impact you. Just fix it or skip, you will make errors. My accuracy isn't particularly good, generally I get between 6-10 incorrect words out of 139+ correct. At 120-130, it was about getting faster. Now, I can type incredibly fast (finishing the first line usually in 3-4 seconds), but every error is a detraction because it interrupts the flow. So getting more perfect is important. I've typed at speeds of over 150,  just today 160, but the errors prevented it from being better.

Also, I don't agree with davkol at all. People from all walks of life, all levels of intelligence, and all backgrounds can type extremely quickly. It's completely in the mind and only somewhat in the fingers. Once you keep on training your mind to recognize a word and bind your fingers to it, typing is easy.
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Offline SUPER432

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 21:34:54 »
Not sure if this is the right subforum, but...

So, I type about 110-120wpm on average and noticed some extreme 10fastfinger scores on here.

Anyone who types 150wpm+ regularly? If so I'd be curious if you made some conscious effort to increase speed at some point, and if so, how did you go about it? My accuracy above 130wpm goes to hell.

It requires a lot of practice. I started my switch to Dvorak last November, with a forced month break due to not having a computer. I would say that on average I practiced for about an hour a day a day since then, practicing up to three hours sometimes when I learned. I started at about 90 wpm on Qwerty, and within three months, I reached 100 wpm on Dvorak.
Constant practice is required. I need to find my flow when I get to the higher 140's, which is mostly pressing the next key before I release the first one, like a wave.

I'm certain that given a few months more, I'll be typing 150+. But again, I'll be practicing a lot. I've been doing it in conjunction with fencing, which together really hurts my wrists and fingers, not helped by me using a floating wrist rather than resting. Just need to get good at visualizing and making the words in your mind before you finish typing them.

Some people are just faster, that's it. They're born like that. Of course, training and practice help, but only to certain extent.

When I was in high school, I was occasionally asked to go to a running competition... and I was always in the top 20 (out of 50–100), although I didn't have a coach or a training plan... I didn't even go running regularly.

On the other hand, I've never been able to get past 80 wpm (or 60 apm in SC:BW); I guess got past 50 wpm only thanks to switch to Colemak and symmetrical keyboards.

I can pretty regularly knock out somewhere between 120-130WPM on the 10fastfingers test thing, even on my laptop.
It really boils down to luck of the draw in the words that are picked, and also if you mess up or not. For me, I get so thrown off when i make a mistake that it can really botch the whole attempt.

I have 200-225 APM in sc2 normally.

That's an issue which many people face. I've been getting rid of it somewhat, but you can't have it impact you. Just fix it or skip, you will make errors. My accuracy isn't particularly good, generally I get between 6-10 incorrect words out of 139+ correct. At 120-130, it was about getting faster. Now, I can type incredibly fast (finishing the first line usually in 3-4 seconds), but every error is a detraction because it interrupts the flow. So getting more perfect is important. I've typed at speeds of over 150,  just today 160, but the errors prevented it from being better.

Also, I don't agree with davkol at all. People from all walks of life, all levels of intelligence, and all backgrounds can type extremely quickly. It's completely in the mind and only somewhat in the fingers. Once you keep on training your mind to recognize a word and bind your fingers to it, typing is easy.

Cool to see firsthand someone that you found Dvorak flat out faster once you got proficient at it. I'll probably never switch, unfortunately.

I did spend a few weeks trying to up my speed. Maybe banged out 160 a few times after getting heavily caffeinated, but it's absolutely not a speed I can sustain for anything longer than a few sentences.

Just curious - what does your practice regimen consist of? Are there any specific exercises or just doing the normal sequences of words/sentences/paragraphs?

Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 23:03:54 »
Cool to see firsthand someone that you found Dvorak flat out faster once you got proficient at it. I'll probably never switch, unfortunately.

I did spend a few weeks trying to up my speed. Maybe banged out 160 a few times after getting heavily caffeinated, but it's absolutely not a speed I can sustain for anything longer than a few sentences.

Just curious - what does your practice regimen consist of? Are there any specific exercises or just doing the normal sequences of words/sentences/paragraphs?

I don't have too much specific, it mostly consists of kind of a random alternation between pure speed of putting out words, which I can reach over 180 for very short periods of time (like maybe a few words in sequence), which would bu 10FF, and then complex sentences, which I use keyhero for as it gives you a lot of information about accuracy, what kinds of error, speed over time, etc.
Then I do endurance every once in a while, using Stamina 3.0 for five minutes at a time. I don't need as great accuracy as I do on keyhero, as it doesn't make you correct errors or penalize you for them, but it does count and record.

Mostly somewhat random, but in my opinion if you're ever typing words quickly, even just like when I'm posting things, you're contributing to muscle memory.

If you want someone even faster than me in Dvorak, Jack (vonunov) has an average on typeracer of over 135, which would probably equate to over 170 on 10FF, and a best of a mind-blowing 200 wpm. He commented on my old Dvorak thread, but I haven't seen him since.
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Offline Jack

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 21 November 2013, 23:19:51 »
I'm lurking about. :P

That seems like a pretty optimistic conversion; I don't do nearly that well on 10FF (click signature image).

I don't know if I'm the guy to talk to, because I've been on the same plateau on Typeracer for over 15,000 races, but I'm told the texts have gotten harder overall, so maybe it translates to an improvement.

In any case, I think anyone can do it, but I'm not certain how, in any concrete way. I think it's something like fluidity of finger movement, which is a function of the day's diet, current connective tissue fatigue, ambient temperature and humidity, and the alignment of Jupiter's moons; fluent reading; and avoiding errors, which are more devastating the faster you're going. And it seems like that last one is part luck and part being honest with yourself about when you need to slow down because you're coming to a hard part.

I really just play Typeracer as a game / stats grind sort of thing. Some days I'm posting scores barely high enough to push my full average up toward 130, and some days it's almost all 150+. I'll play a lot if the conditions are right and it comes easily, or if not I'll go do something else. I don't generally train on purpose (except to practice QWERTY) but maybe if I did, that would help.

Instant Death Mode is nice, though. Seems like after I finish a few races in that, I'm in the right mode, where the typing is crisp and aims for speed via accuracy.

Anyway, people ask this kind of question all the time, but the fast typists are usually at a loss to explain well why they're fast. If you look through the Typeracer mailing list, there are plenty of threads about this kind of thing; maybe you can glean some useful stuff from them.

All I can suggest is to relax and not try so hard to go fast. Relaxation and awareness seem to be paramount. Meditation helps for real.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 November 2013, 00:24:51 by Jack »

Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 00:56:39 »
Yay Jack!
I saw your stuff earlier today, very nice.
And three Dvorak typists in the top ten, me included, at the very bottom, haha. Hope to see you on 10FF more.
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Offline SUPER432

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 16:19:16 »
Good info, thanks guys!

All I can suggest is to relax and not try so hard to go fast. Relaxation and awareness seem to be paramount. Meditation helps for real.

For sure there's been times where I've mindlessly typed one out on typeracer and was surprised at the result. I find 10 fast fingers a lot more challenging because it's this sequence of random words - sometimes my reading lags behind my typing, whereas that isn't a problem for me on typeracer, even if the passages are more complex.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 22 November 2013, 16:29:27 »
Good info, thanks guys!

All I can suggest is to relax and not try so hard to go fast. Relaxation and awareness seem to be paramount. Meditation helps for real.

For sure there's been times where I've mindlessly typed one out on typeracer and was surprised at the result. I find 10 fast fingers a lot more challenging because it's this sequence of random words - sometimes my reading lags behind my typing, whereas that isn't a problem for me on typeracer, even if the passages are more complex.

Haha, I'm the opposite. I can type sequences for ages, but typing long words and punctuation can trip me up on typeracer. Using 10FF to practice sometimes is a good habit because the word are the same, so you can get really fast with the fingers, and learn to read ahead, one of the most important things.
Quickfire TK MX Blue Corsair K60 MX Red Ducky Shine 3 Yellow TKL MX Blue Leopold FC660C
Current best: 162 wpm.

Offline kfmfe04

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 09:19:26 »
Didn't know about typerace - it's damn addicting:  I'm doing 80-90wpm in most games.
BTW, you do have to correct all mistakes in that game, right?  That's how I've been playing it so far.

Maybe I should learn Dvorak or Colemark!   ;)
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Offline Jack

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 09:41:27 »
Yeah, it won't let you continue without correcting your errors.

Dvorak or Colemak can be great to pick up if it's the first time you're really bothering with touchtyping (like I was) or if you're having RSI troubles. Returns diminish as your existing QWERTY speed rises, though. I'd say you're not yet at the stage where it's pointless to switch, but don't expect a magic bullet either. It doesn't matter much in the end; this guy uses QWERTY: http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=arenasnow2

http://hi-games.net/ is the other decent typing site where a lot of people play, if you're interested.

Offline kfmfe04

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 11:19:18 »
Very interesting stuff - it looks like some people might be using bots to get some crazy-looking wpm on those sites!

I don't get why people waste time cheating like that...  ...to me, the point of these sites to improve my own speed.
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Offline Jack

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 11:40:20 »
Yeah, there definitely are. Check this guy, for example: http://typeracerdata.appspot.com/users?id=tr:ricky_khanna

That "certWpm": 1860000.0 says he passed the captcha test with an impossible score of 1,860,000 WPM. Guess there should be an upper limit on it. Anyway, there's a small team of people picking these out as we see them and adding them to a spreadsheet for review and removal, so maybe we can get the high scores cleaned up before long.

Offline kfmfe04

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 14:31:50 »
LoL - that's hilarious and much more extreme than some of the cases I thought I saw!

If you don't mind me asking, what kinds of switches do you (Jack) and Linkbane use/like?

And how do different switches impact your typing speed/style?
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Offline SUPER432

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 14:47:24 »
Yeah, it won't let you continue without correcting your errors.

Dvorak or Colemak can be great to pick up if it's the first time you're really bothering with touchtyping (like I was) or if you're having RSI troubles. Returns diminish as your existing QWERTY speed rises, though. I'd say you're not yet at the stage where it's pointless to switch, but don't expect a magic bullet either. It doesn't matter much in the end; this guy uses QWERTY: http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=arenasnow2

http://hi-games.net/ is the other decent typing site where a lot of people play, if you're interested.

I'm definitely in the camp that speed can be trained, but Sean Wrona is just an animal. 200wpm+ on any junk keyboard, any kind of text segment, etc. It just seems like a completely different level.

Offline Jack

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 14:51:36 »
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48685.msg1045945#msg1045945

Did a quick test there. The results were about the same, but differences become more apparent with longer periods of testing. The MX Blacks get tiring and I can't keep pushing them for very long before I start making errors due to fatigue. The blues end up giving no advantage over the Topres, plus the noise is annoying, so here I am using the Topres mostly. :P

Offline SUPER432

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 14:54:10 »
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48685.msg1045945#msg1045945

Did a quick test there. The results were about the same, but differences become more apparent with longer periods of testing. The MX Blacks get tiring and I can't keep pushing them for very long before I start making errors due to fatigue. The blues end up giving no advantage over the Topres, plus the noise is annoying, so here I am using the Topres mostly. :P

I find I'm about 10-15wpm faster on scissor switch keyboards (laptops, new apple keyboards, etc.) Don't suppose you have one of those to try out also?

Offline kfmfe04

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 15:25:12 »
Very interesting!  I'm planning to get a hhkb in January...

Have you modded your mechanicals with o-rings or have you trained yourself to type lightly enough that you don't bottom out anyways?

I've only had my MX reds for a week (first mechanical).  After noticing that I was kind of noisy, I looked around GH and found that because I was coming from scissor switch boards, I was more prone towards bottoming out.

This fact led me into reading about o-ring mods.  I'd be interested in trying them out, but thinking about it some more, perhaps I should be training myself NOT to bottom out instead...
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Offline Jack

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 15:29:10 »
I find I'm about 10-15wpm faster on scissor switch keyboards (laptops, new apple keyboards, etc.) Don't suppose you have one of those to try out also?

I just tried a new Apple wireless keyboard (using Typeracer so I could see speed during the act and use material I'm already familiar with my performance on) and I could reach my usual speeds at times, though it was hard not to make errors so I tended to finish in the 130s. Probably takes time to get accustomed to it.

Have you modded your mechanicals with o-rings or have you trained yourself to type lightly enough that you don't bottom out anyways?

I have the black o-rings (50A-R) on the MX Blacks (using Cherry keycaps). I mainly wanted them for shorter travel because I thought it would take away the fatiguing part of the switches, but they're still tiring to press. It could just be that I still hit them pretty hard at any decent speed, and maybe I should have gotten one of the softer o-rings.

I've tried the whole deal with only riding the actuation point, but I can't pull it off with consistent accuracy. Maybe it works better for some people. Seems pretty well impossible on the Topres though. I'm inclined to agree with the others here who say that if you're typing very fast at all, you're simply going to bottom out, so instead of trying not to do that, I just try to find the best stuff to stick in the keyboard to mitigate that.

I'm thinking of trying MX Reds with red o-rings, so if you end up getting those, I'd like to hear how they work out for you.
« Last Edit: Sun, 24 November 2013, 15:39:29 by Jack »

Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 16:12:17 »
Jack, when I type at my fastest speed, I don't bottom out much, because I'm typing lighter than when I'm at lower speeds. However, I use blues, and that could contribute, as blacks require more force and indicate when actuation has reached. Have you ever tried tactile boards, and how do you do on them?
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 22:58:50 »
Well, on the subject of the super speedsters...

There will be people who at critical periods of brain development initiated an expansion and greater appropriation of brain areas dedicated to the hand-eye pathway..

This is possible because your brain is highly plastic during youth..

It also explains why developing certain skills and thought-concepts become slower and more difficult for older  individuals, because their brain is already deeply tuned for a previous routine..

The most recent neuro research indicates that the brain continues to possess plasticity at ANY AGE... however, obviously one can not achieve the rate of growth and alteration on par with youngsters.




Offline kfmfe04

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 23:08:08 »
While browsing around, I saw this interesting video about a Japanese professional real-time subtitler at 330 Japanese characters per minute.

She uses a very interesting HOMEROW-ONLY keyboard used only by subtitlist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUiURlbopaA

Here's a close-up:

45745-0

It's a really interesting keyboard - the letters on home row have been rearranged out-of-order (I'm assuming in Japanese frequency order), backspace on left-pinky, return on right-pinky, (shift, tab, numerics) on top, two space bars for the thumbs.

I googled around for an equivalent keyboard for English and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype

DAMN!  If I were just starting out, not knowing Qwerty, I just might go for that!
I wonder if there are any reduced-number-of-keys chording type keyboard out there for English.
« Last Edit: Sun, 24 November 2013, 23:23:07 by kfmfe04 »
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 23:33:50 »
While browsing around, I saw this interesting video about a Japanese professional real-time subtitler at 330 Japanese characters per minute.

She uses a very interesting HOMEROW-ONLY keyboard used only by subtitlist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUiURlbopaA

Here's a close-up:

(Attachment Link)

It's a really interesting keyboard - the letters on home row have been rearranged out-of-order (I'm assuming in Japanese frequency order), backspace on left-pinky, return on right-pinky, (shift, tab, numerics) on top, two space bars for the thumbs.

I googled around for an equivalent keyboard for English and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype

DAMN!  If I were just starting out, not knowing Qwerty, I just might go for that!
I wonder if there are any reduced-number-of-keys chording type keyboard out there for English.

I don't know if you don't know or what, but there are stenotype machines, with the best operators going at over 325 wpm (1625 cpm).
 
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Offline kfmfe04

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 24 November 2013, 23:37:36 »
Didn't know that - interesting!  On your suggestion, I came across this:

http://plover.stenoknight.com/2010/03/how-to-speak-with-your-fingers.html
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Offline kfmfe04

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 25 November 2013, 03:36:10 »
Okay, I've decided that steno/plover is too much work.

I've begun practicing Colemak homerow.
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Offline Jack

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 25 November 2013, 04:05:02 »
http://data.typeracer.com/pit/profile?user=ploversteno Some Typeracer results from Mirabai. As you can see, the results vary dramatically with the familiarity and simplicity of the matter, and almost always have terrible accuracy as the steno software has to alter the text that's initially entered in as more phonemes are added to form a word. However, it has the potential to reach intimidating speeds.

Offline tufty

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 25 November 2013, 04:13:12 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype

DAMN!  If I were just starting out, not knowing Qwerty, I just might go for that!
I wonder if there are any reduced-number-of-keys chording type keyboard out there for English.
Velotype as disclosed in the patent has mappings for Dutch, English and German.  The production version possibly handles more.  The patent is particularly interesting, as it features not only a detailed discussion of the layout and usage, but also has flowcharts and (pseudo) source code for the key mappings.

Offline WakeMeIPlan

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 25 November 2013, 04:16:44 »
I do a lot better when I know know the words. If I'm reading a word that i don't immediately recognize, I begin to fumble. Also if I mess up, I get thrown off and continue to mess up.

Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline kfmfe04

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 25 November 2013, 04:34:30 »
http://data.typeracer.com/pit/profile?user=ploversteno Some Typeracer results from Mirabai. As you can see, the results vary dramatically with the familiarity and simplicity of the matter, and almost always have terrible accuracy as the steno software has to alter the text that's initially entered in as more phonemes are added to form a word. However, it has the potential to reach intimidating speeds.

Wow - that's really interesting: a much larger variance than I expected!
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 25 November 2013, 10:37:30 »
I do a lot better when I know know the words. If I'm reading a word that i don't immediately recognize, I begin to fumble. Also if I mess up, I get thrown off and continue to mess up.

Usually it helps me to slow down, read it in advance, and try to break it up into sections.
I also thought that steno is best suited for punctuation-free typing?
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Offline Proword

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 00:27:48 »
All of my work is audio-transcription so I don't get a chance to pre-read (or hear) anything, so it's all "new" to me at first hearing.  I can rattle along at the speed of normal speech which is anything from 150 to 180 wpm.

It's possible to create your own stenotype using your own abbreviations with WordPerfect word processing software.

http://proword-transcription.blogspot.com.au/

Although I've been using a Maltron since 1986, the WP stenotype will work with any keyboard the user is familiar with. 
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Offline SUPER432

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 02:30:12 »
My opinion?
Satisfy your Topre curiosity. You only live once!


All of my work is audio-transcription so I don't get a chance to pre-read (or hear) anything, so it's all "new" to me at first hearing.  I can rattle along at the speed of normal speech which is anything from 150 to 180 wpm.

It's possible to create your own stenotype using your own abbreviations with WordPerfect word processing software.

http://proword-transcription.blogspot.com.au/

Although I've been using a Maltron since 1986, the WP stenotype will work with any keyboard the user is familiar with. 

That is really awesome, and fast! Not that it'd be the most exciting of things, but do you have a video of yourself at work?

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 20:47:00 »
Here's a video of me transcribing an oral history interview.   Most of my work was in court, where the recordings were much better, but this will give an idea of how it works.


Joe
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 27 November 2013, 21:12:31 »
Here's a video of me transcribing an oral history interview.   Most of my work was in court, where the recordings were much better, but this will give an idea of how it works.


Joe

Random question, how quickly do you type without stenotype?
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Offline Annas

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 28 November 2013, 07:29:28 »
Not sure if this is the right subforum, but...

So, I type about 110-120wpm on average and noticed some extreme 10fastfinger scores on here.

Anyone who types 150wpm+ regularly? If so I'd be curious if you made some conscious effort to increase speed at some point, and if so, how did you go about it? My accuracy above 130wpm goes to hell.

Maybe they type Dvorak or Colemak. It's possible.

Offline Proword

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 28 November 2013, 17:42:59 »

Random question, how quickly do you type without stenotype?

It's very hard to tell, because none of the typing testers allow me to use the steno.    :))  However I can type at pretty much the same speed, it just takes a lot more effort.


Joe

On Edit:  I've found that with audio transcription, the limiting factor for typing is usually the quality of the recording.  A good recording (eg a judge handing down a decision in a case) will allow me to increase the playback speed, sometimes by 5-6%, whereas a bad recording (with 3-4 people all shouting at once) I might be limited to maybe 5-10 wpm, because I have to rewind the recording, cut out 3 channels (most courts use 4 channel recording), type one speaker, rewind, change to another channel, type that speaker, and so on.   Then I have to go right back to the beginning of the recording and do a 100% sound check, and correct any errors.  My contractual obligation requires me to make no more than 2 errors per page (350 words on average) which works out at 99.9995% accuracy.  So that takes the final typing speed down even further. 
« Last Edit: Thu, 28 November 2013, 19:26:20 by Proword »
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 00:19:02 »
It's very hard to tell, because none of the typing testers allow me to use the steno.    :))  However I can type at pretty much the same speed, it just takes a lot more effort.

Wait, so like over 150 wpm without steno?  :eek:
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Offline kfmfe04

  • Posts: 92
Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 01:37:27 »
It's very hard to tell, because none of the typing testers allow me to use the steno.    :))  However I can type at pretty much the same speed, it just takes a lot more effort.

Wait, so like over 150 wpm without steno?  :eek:

Hmm... ...there's no need to compare apples and oranges here...

Proword's using Maltron, which has a different layout/ergonomics, and he's also using his very extensive shorthand/macro to type quickly, which is all fair game in my eyes! 

Are you going to ask him to time himself next with a Dell QWERTY rubber-dome and no WordPerfect correction?

In fact, I'm quite envious of anyone who has the patience and persistence to generate such a long list of replacements for speed.  I really like what he's advocating on his website - that we create our own abbreviations for our own shorthand.  In this age of computers and available customization, it certainly makes sense to personalize our typing according to our own preferences.

Heck, we're already doing that on the hardware side with all these customized boards and layouts!  Proword has simply brought it up to the next level.

If I had a ton of time, I would like to create a chorded keyboard similar to hybrid between a stenotype and piano keys, with my own customized chord mappings, combined with a dictionary for shorthand at the software layer like what Proword has done.  It might be optimized for typing in a few languages I am interested in (with statistical analysis, this is definitely feasible) and for C-like coding languages.

But to do so properly, I would have to study what has already been done and then adapt the current state-of-the-art to myself for faster learning and better retention.
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 02:29:41 »
Proword's using Maltron, which has a different layout/ergonomics, and he's also using his very extensive shorthand/macro to type quickly, which is all fair game in my eyes! 

In your eyes, which are completely different from my own. Typing shorthand has no correlation to typing regularly, without computer assistance. Typing correction does not count at all because it's not by the ability of the typist; it's foolish to think that they're the same.
All you really did is dismiss my question to further express your own opinion, which I found rather immature. Please desist, or don't quote me when you're not answering anything I say.
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Offline kfmfe04

  • Posts: 92
Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 03:08:31 »
So does Mirabai using plover count?

imho, using (computer-assisted mapping + the grey matter between the ears) is even more impressive, because you are effectively breaking through the limitations of APM by distributing the work from your fingers to your brain (doing real-time mapping) - it's like breaking the 9600baud barrier by compressing and decompressing in real-time

but you can see it a different way if you like...
« Last Edit: Fri, 29 November 2013, 03:14:10 by kfmfe04 »
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Offline Jack

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 04:17:59 »
On Edit:  I've found that with audio transcription, the limiting factor for typing is usually the quality of the recording. 

Yeah, same here, quality and content of the recording. I once did a verbatim transcript of a great hearing with only two very clear speakers and little need to research any terms. I was able to rattle along with that for the most part and finish under 3:1, and I never bothered with autocomplete entries. I was fairly new to transcription, too, so that time might be different today. On the other hand, I once had a completely terrible phoned-in unemployment hearing. Up to four speakers at times, bad connection, altogether not a fun time. That one took quite a bit longer.

Have you thought about learning steno? Worst case, you'll be faster at offline transcription, and in the best case, you could be a court reporter or CART provider. I want to play with Plover but I don't yet have a suitable keyboard that I want to stick those pads to.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 09:14:38 »
So does Mirabai using plover count?

imho, using (computer-assisted mapping + the grey matter between the ears) is even more impressive, because you are effectively breaking through the limitations of APM by distributing the work from your fingers to your brain (doing real-time mapping) - it's like breaking the 9600baud barrier by compressing and decompressing in real-time

but you can see it a different way if you like...

Please, stop. Your stupidity is hurting me.
Typing is already translating a word into finger actions. The difference is that steno is pressing less keys to produce more letters, akin to comparing a knife and an electric saw. I'm sure that the second one can cut more easily, but it requires very little strength, despite the slightly increased finesse.
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Offline Proword

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 30 November 2013, 01:23:19 »


.. The difference is that steno is pressing less keys to produce more letters...

There are considerable differences between true steno and my WP shorthand.  With steno, it's not just a matter of "pressing fewer keys".  With steno the keys are pressed simultaneously, or chorded.  With keyboard shorthand, the keystrokes are sequential.  This means that physically the steno seems to be doing less work.

This video shows a stenotypist in action.  It's in French, but you can still see the fingers pressing the keys simultaneously, rather than in my video, where they are sequential.


 On the down side because steno was originally a machine shorthand based upon sounds (like Pitmans pen eg) rather than words, prior to computerisation, the output from the stenotype machine



had to be translated into proper English or "scoped", usually by a specialist  editor or "scopist".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopist

As you can see the text on the tape bore no resemblance to the final "expanded" text.  This meant that the shorthand had to be "universal", as was pen-based shorthand, so that it could be translated by a third party, even years later.  Thus in order to use steno there is literally years of study to acquire the skill (as well as costs of thousands of dollars), whereas with keyboard shorthand it's immediate (and free).  The typist or WPO can add their own abbreviations in their own time, while still transcribing non-abbreviated text in full.  Because the abbreviations are entered into the computer beforehand (which is now happening with stenotype)  the translation is immediate and error free.  The same principle is applied in SMS texting on mobile phones, except if I send a message to a friend, I have to assume that they will know what my abbreviations stand for, which can lead to no end of difficulty through misinterpretation.  But those people who are adept at using SMS-type abbreviating should find keyboard shorthand quite easy.

I'm rather puzzled that you should find 150 wpm worthy of comment.  I worked for many years in various court reporting firms and there were literally dozens of people who were typing at about that speed.  None of them was using (my) shorthand, so they were typing everything in full, on QWERTY keyboards.  It was how I started out until we shifted from HP Word software to WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS, which is where I began to really develop the shorthand, as well as bring my Maltron in.

In his post, Jack has pointed out that he was working at a ratio of 3:1.   That means he takes three minutes to type one minute of audio.  The world recognised standard is 4:1, so he's going pretty well.  He also mentions "little need to research any terms".  My contractual obligation, as I mentioned, is to be 99.9995% accurate.  Most stenotypists, on my understanding, work to 97-98%.  To obtain my level of accuracy I have to stop typing and search for information, whether it be the name of a street, a type of washing machine, a medical procedure or an illegal chemical substance.  I have to be able to find this information quickly, because whilst I'm not typing, the clock is still ticking.

I was assigned to a forensic pathology office for 12 months, doing transcription of post mortem reports, which was 99% standard stuff, although each of the three doctors had their own individual way of describing.  After a couple of weeks, by the judicious application of the functions of the word processor, I was able to enter 2-4 keystrokes, and have about 10-15 seconds of audio transcribed in under a second.  This calculated out to be 3-4,000 wpm.  But nevertheless I still had to listen to it all the way to check that the doctor hadn't said something out of the ordinary.  I was able to research the correct spellings etc beforehand so that I was able to do a complete autopsy report in a few minutes.

 My experience is that a slower typist who knows everything will do a better, faster, job than a speed freak who doesn't know anything and has to stop and find stuff out all the time or correct errors.

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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 30 November 2013, 01:37:23 »


.. The difference is that steno is pressing less keys to produce more letters...

There are considerable differences between true steno and my WP shorthand.  With steno, it's not just a matter of "pressing fewer keys".  With steno the keys are pressed simultaneously, or chorded.  With keyboard shorthand, the keystrokes are sequential.  This means that physically the steno seems to be doing less work.

This video shows a stenotypist in action.  It's in French, but you can still see the fingers pressing the keys simultaneously, rather than in my video, where they are sequential.


 On the down side because steno was originally a machine shorthand based upon sounds (like Pitmans pen eg) rather than words, prior to computerisation, the output from the stenotype machine

Show Image


had to be translated into proper English or "scoped", usually by a specialist  editor or "scopist".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopist

As you can see the text on the tape bore no resemblance to the final "expanded" text.  This meant that the shorthand had to be "universal", as was pen-based shorthand, so that it could be translated by a third party, even years later.  Thus in order to use steno there is literally years of study to acquire the skill (as well as costs of thousands of dollars), whereas with keyboard shorthand it's immediate (and free).  The typist or WPO can add their own abbreviations in their own time, while still transcribing non-abbreviated text in full.  Because the abbreviations are entered into the computer beforehand (which is now happening with stenotype)  the translation is immediate and error free.  The same principle is applied in SMS texting on mobile phones, except if I send a message to a friend, I have to assume that they will know what my abbreviations stand for, which can lead to no end of difficulty through misinterpretation.  But those people who are adept at using SMS-type abbreviating should find keyboard shorthand quite easy.

I'm rather puzzled that you should find 150 wpm worthy of comment.  I worked for many years in various court reporting firms and there were literally dozens of people who were typing at about that speed.  None of them was using (my) shorthand, so they were typing everything in full, on QWERTY keyboards.  It was how I started out until we shifted from HP Word software to WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS, which is where I began to really develop the shorthand, as well as bring my Maltron in.

In his post, Jack has pointed out that he was working at a ratio of 3:1.   That means he takes three minutes to type one minute of audio.  The world recognised standard is 4:1, so he's going pretty well.  He also mentions "little need to research any terms".  My contractual obligation, as I mentioned, is to be 99.9995% accurate.  Most stenotypists, on my understanding, work to 97-98%.  To obtain my level of accuracy I have to stop typing and search for information, whether it be the name of a street, a type of washing machine, a medical procedure or an illegal chemical substance.  I have to be able to find this information quickly, because whilst I'm not typing, the clock is still ticking.

I was assigned to a forensic pathology office for 12 months, doing transcription of post mortem reports, which was 99% standard stuff, although each of the three doctors had their own individual way of describing.  After a couple of weeks, by the judicious application of the functions of the word processor, I was able to enter 2-4 keystrokes, and have about 10-15 seconds of audio transcribed in under a second.  This calculated out to be 3-4,000 wpm.  But nevertheless I still had to listen to it all the way to check that the doctor hadn't said something out of the ordinary.  I was able to research the correct spellings etc beforehand so that I was able to do a complete autopsy report in a few minutes.

 My experience is that a slower typist who knows everything will do a better, faster, job than a speed freak who doesn't know anything and has to stop and find stuff out all the time or correct errors.

That is some very interesting insight, thanks for sharing!






Offline kfmfe04

  • Posts: 92
Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 30 November 2013, 16:05:46 »
I actually agree with you, but unfortunately, you don't see it.  The only difference is I'm just "stupid" for looking at this from a broader perspective.

That's right.  Typing is also akin to using a "better tool" than transcribing by hand on paper or using a chisel and rock (although the latter may have more artistic value than typing on a keyboard). 

Why not use a better tool when it is available or you are better able to use it?

I personally don't care if that tool is typing, talking into Siri, or using a machine which can read my mind and transcribe automagically.  Whether using chorded or not, Colemak or Dvorak, or some other layout, it's all fine.  Of course, customised keyboards or user-interfaces are fine.

This is why I'm particularly impressed by Proword's experience.  He's part of a group of professionals who have been optimising for speed with the best tools that he can get his hands at the time it is available. 

Heck, he has created his own methodology, and he's been doing this since DOS - that's really impressive!  With his potential upside of 3-4,000 wpm, I doubt a normal person can reach that without attaching electrodes to one's head and cranking the time-machine 50 years? into the future.

If my livelihood depended on it or if I had the time to learn it, I would definitely look into learning his system.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us, Proword!

BTW, Proword do you have any insight into how to improve typing accuracy? 

You have a special keyboard/layout, decades of experience, and a customised system, which all must help.  But is there anything a normal person can do to improve in this area? 

Your speed is already at a level beyond my comprehension, but your accuracy - just wow... ...I'm speechless.  I'm going back to your website to reread your experience...
« Last Edit: Sat, 30 November 2013, 16:27:18 by kfmfe04 »
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Offline Proword

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Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 30 November 2013, 19:02:38 »
I actually agree with you, but unfortunately, you don't see it.  The only difference is I'm just "stupid" for looking at this from a broader perspective.

That's right.  Typing is also akin to using a "better tool" than transcribing by hand on paper or using a chisel and rock (although the latter may have more artistic value than typing on a keyboard). 

Why not use a better tool when it is available or you are better able to use it?

I personally don't care if that tool is typing, talking into Siri, or using a machine which can read my mind and transcribe automagically.  Whether using chorded or not, Colemak or Dvorak, or some other layout, it's all fine.  Of course, customised keyboards or user-interfaces are fine.

This is why I'm particularly impressed by Proword's experience.  He's part of a group of professionals who have been optimising for speed with the best tools that he can get his hands at the time it is available. 

Heck, he has created his own methodology, and he's been doing this since DOS - that's really impressive!  With his potential upside of 3-4,000 wpm, I doubt a normal person can reach that without attaching electrodes to one's head and cranking the time-machine 50 years? into the future.

If my livelihood depended on it or if I had the time to learn it, I would definitely look into learning his system.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us, Proword!

BTW, Proword do you have any insight into how to improve typing accuracy? 

You have a special keyboard/layout, decades of experience, and a customised system, which all must help.  But is there anything a normal person can do to improve in this area? 

Your speed is already at a level beyond my comprehension, but your accuracy - just wow... ...I'm speechless.  I'm going back to your website to reread your experience...

Firstly, thanks for your kind words.  I'm always glad to be able to share my experience around, because in my time I meet so much apathy or even negativity.  There are two areas in particular, the keyboard and the software.  I can understand that perhaps when I produce the Maltron keyboard because (a) it IS expensive and (b) people wrongly assume it means throwing away experience gained on other keyboards by learning the Malt layout.  My perception is that learning the Malt layout on the Malt keyboard will not displace previous keyboard skill (just say QWERTY for example), except that one's skill will diminish somewhat, purely from lack of use.  I learned to type on QWERTY in 1967, and changed to Malt in 1986.  But I can still type with QWERTY on a "flat" keyboard, but it takes me a while to get the skill back, because I literally will go 5-6 years without touching a QWERTY.  But it's still there.  Problems occur when somebody tries to learn a second keyboard layout on the same physical keyboard shape - ie flat.  There is nothing to prompt the "muscle memory" as fully. 

The second area of negativity is when I suggest changing to WordPerfect.  As time has gone by I have found that more and more people don't know of any word processing package except Microsoft Word.  This is completely due to Microsoft's rather predatory practices of getting computer makers to install MS Word/Office software as a freebie, knowing that when it comes time to update the software the buyer will replace like with like.  As with the keyboard people (generally) like to stick with what they know.  Obviously groups like this contain a higher percentage of people who DON'T like to stick with what they know.

The comment "... looking at this from a broader perspective" is really a very apt way of regarding this.  Eg looking past the labels.  My main thought is that simply because a function is labelled "QuickCorrect" doesn't mean it has to be used for that purpose and that purpose only.  I actually use the function labelled "QuickWords" to do automatic error correction, simply because the QC function is faster and more efficient.  Both WordPerfect and MS Word can be tailored to suit the WPO's requirements, but WordPerfect is easier to do this with.  Space does not permit a full explanation, but if you look at my blog I give illustrations of how to change the keyboard mapping on MSW and WP.  WP is SO much better.

"BTW, Proword do you have any insight into how to improve typing accuracy?"

Like my recommendations for creating abbreviations, one person is likely to have a different view on what is "right" than another, so other than the old "practice, practice, practice" I can't be more specific.  However, one of the tricks which gives me this practice is to use WP as much as I can.  For example, in typing this reply, I'm not doing it in the reply box for the board, rather I'm in WP, using all my tricks.  Then, when I'm finished, I've got a small macro attached to a single keystroke which, by using the normal "Select All" function from the WP menu I can copy this entire document.  I then return to this thread and paste the text.  I can use this in real time with chat rooms (eg Second Life or Skype), in fact any software which has access to the Windows clipboard.

When I mention 99.9995% accuracy, this is the finished product which I hand to the client.  As I said when I finished the initial draft of the document, I then go back to the beginning and do a 100% sound check, correcting any errors as I go.  Whilst I don't keep accurate count, generally I find sufficient errors to take my accuracy to about 98-99+% before correction.

"You have a special keyboard/layout, decades of experience, and a customised system, which all must help" is exactly right.  I couldn't do what I do if any of these were missing.

I suppose I can summarise my thoughts on improving accuracy - - balance speed with accuracy.  What I've done is given myself a way of "slowing down" to allow myself more time to think while improving the output.

If anybody has any queries about the blog, by all means send an IM and I'll do my best to assist. 

Joe
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Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Re: 150wpm+
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 30 November 2013, 19:36:57 »
 
In fact, I'm quite envious of anyone who has the patience and persistence to generate such a long list of replacements for speed.

I'm actually very IMpatient. ;D  Much of my list of abbreviations was done "on the fly".   Here is my WP menu bar.




You will see I have an item on the menu bar for QuickCorrect.  If I'm typing along and hear a word or phrase which I think needs to have an abbreviation created (eg "take it to the limit") I will type the first abbreviation that comes to mind and then attempt to expand it. (my first thought was "tai2l").  If nothing happens - ie there was no pre-existing abbreviation, then I will type the full expression, select it, click on the QC button, and type the abbreviation next to the expression, save and close. 



I'm then back in the document and continue typing.

Later on, with time on my hands, I might then create a couple of "linked" abbreviations, such "toi2l" (took it to the limit) and "tani2l" (taken it to the limit).  I may never use these abbreviations - but if I do then I know that if I take the first abbreviation that comes to mind it will work, because I'm using the same mind to get the abbreviation. (One of the beauties of WP compared to MS Word is that there is no limit (that I have found) to the size of the QC file - MS Word seems to be limited to about 28K - going above that can generate out of memory errors.  My current QC file is about 300K - and growing.)

To create an abbreviation is extremely quick and easy - because I'm a very impatient person.  :thumb:

Joe


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Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.