Author Topic: tips on not resting palms but hover  (Read 12019 times)

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Offline pnutster

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tips on not resting palms but hover
« on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 14:30:37 »
Short history: About 2 years ago started to get serious underarm / tendon problems (left arm). Running to doctors, physio-therapists etc. etc. Got diagnosed with tendonosis (chronic tendonitis). Most of it due to wrong posture, cramped fingers using crazy shortcuts and... here it comes, using hunt-and-peck not being able to touch-type.

Aside of the medical aspect, this was the time when I started looking around for better desk and keyboard solutions. Starting with under the desk tray for keyboard, purchasing an Advantage Kinesis. This in turn forced me to learn to touch type. After a year and a half doing that, I am certainly not what you would call a turbo-typer. But all in all I can find my way on my precious Advantage keyboard.

Then I found Geekhack and read many interesting stories on ergonomics.  And most of all, I think in 50% (maybe exaggerating a bit here..) of the posts/answers of jacobolus, I have seen him write, don't rest your hands/palms, have your hands hover, so the muscles in the upper arm can do some work as well. Now since my problems with my underarms are better, but far from gone I am really prone on working on that part of my typing.

Now with the Kinesis Advantage, I clearly taught myself wrong. It has such a "great" and inviting area to rest your palms on, you would think it was made to rest your palms on while typing. From the start I bought the palm pads and they are even indented from my palms resting on them while typing. Now trying to have my hands hover and my palms not resting. And I find it really really hard. I am attempting to hover, but then after 5-10 minutes catch myself resting my palms again.

Any one got any tips on how to improve on this and hover all the time? All help is welcome!

« Last Edit: Fri, 23 January 2015, 14:32:36 by pnutster »
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Offline Melvang

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 14:48:50 »
Short history: About 2 years ago started to get serious underarm / tendon problems (left arm). Running to doctors, physio-therapists etc. etc. Got diagnosed with tendonosis (chronic tendonitis). Most of it due to wrong posture, cramped fingers using crazy shortcuts and... here it comes, using hunt-and-peck not being able to touch-type.

Aside of the medical aspect, this was the time when I started looking around for better desk and keyboard solutions. Starting with under the desk tray for keyboard, purchasing an Advantage Kinesis. This in turn forced me to learn to touch type. After a year and a half doing that, I am certainly not what you would call a turbo-typer. But all in all I can find my way on my precious Advantage keyboard.

Then I found Geekhack and read many interesting stories on ergonomics.  And most of all, I think in 50% (maybe exaggerating a bit here..) of the posts/answers of jacobolus, I have seen him write, don't rest your hands/palms, have your hands hover, so the muscles in the upper arm can do some work as well. Now since my problems with my underarms are better, but far from gone I am really prone on working on that part of my typing.

Now with the Kinesis Advantage, I clearly taught myself wrong. It has such a "great" and inviting area to rest your palms on, you would think it was made to rest your palms on while typing. From the start I bought the palm pads and they are even indented from my palms resting on them while typing. Now trying to have my hands hover and my palms not resting. And I find it really really hard. I am attempting to hover, but then after 5-10 minutes catch myself resting my palms again.

Any one got any tips on how to improve on this and hover all the time? All help is welcome!

To be honest the one thing that got me to hover wasn't even intentional.  All I did was start typing on an IBM XT.  I doubt that will be the correct solution for you but for some reason I just started hovering with that board.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 16:15:24 »
If you have a Kinesis Advantage, the palmrests are very high relative to the keys: the keyboard is designed to let you rest your palms on it with your wrists straight. You probably won’t injure yourself if you have your hands resting on the palmrests there, but you also might find it more comfortable and faster if you float your palms just slightly above the palmrests.

If you’re keeping your wrists straight, not too much tension in your fingers and wrists, etc., I think you’ll probably be fine. As with anything, YMMV. Do what’s comfortable for you, and pay attention if you start to feel pain or fatigue.

The main thing I’ve been trying to stress is that most palmrests out there, including e.g. the full-hand ergodox or the part of a laptop in front of the keyboard, are too low to be a good comfortable spot to leave your palms all the time, and using them will encourage the wrist to be bent upward, which reduces finger flexibility and can lead to injuries.

By changing the vertical placement of the keyboard (by lowering your desk, raising your chair, putting the keyboard on your lap, etc.), and by changing the tilt of the keyboard, it can be made much more comfortable than the way most people have their keyboards, which is on a too-high desk with a too-low chair. At the right placement and tilt, I think a standard keyboard doesn’t really require any kind of palm support. Even better is a split keyboard where the position and three-dimensional angle of each half can be adjusted to wherever it’s most comfortable.

I haven’t personally tried typing on a Kinesis Advantage for more than a few hours; I didn’t really like some of the key placements, especially the thumb section, but I didn’t give it a long enough trial to really judge whether I could get used to it, or to be able to advise you much about the palmrests.
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 January 2015, 16:27:42 by jacobolus »

Offline Oobly

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 16:27:19 »
Put spikes on the palm rests ;)

If you raise your desk and / or lower your table more it could help. I guess it's pretty hard to get out of the habit when they're right there. I know I sometimes do the same on my laptop when it's on a tall table / desk and get a bit lazy. It's a lot easier on my desktop and work machine since I use fairly tall standard layout boards with SA profile caps on, so the desk is far from my palms.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 17:29:16 »
Pick up your hands like a T-Rex Dinosaur.. and rest your elbow in its natural hanging position..

If your keyboard height is ABOVE these elbows..  will not be able to use what's known as Natural-Hover...

If you Hover, you will be utilizing Induced Hover.. and this too can not be sustained for too long.



Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..


Offline pnutster

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 17:36:43 »
I like the spikes idea!

As for desk / keyboard setup. As mentioned, I have an under the desk tray, what I didn't mention, with even a small negative tilt to get the wrists at a better straight angle.

So overall, I think I have an ok keyboard / desk setup. However, will try to do more hovering anyway.

Personally the Advantage has done a lot of good for me. Downside, I really can't type on a regular keyboard anymore...

Thanks for all the input!
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Offline pnutster

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 17:39:45 »
Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..

Can you elaborate a bit more on that, English 2nd language and not fully comprehending what you write here. Lowerarm is still a problem for me and would love to know more about this.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 18:02:04 »
Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..

Can you elaborate a bit more on that, English 2nd language and not fully comprehending what you write here. Lowerarm is still a problem for me and would love to know more about this.

could you post a picture of an arm anatomy and circle the precise muscle or tendon that is causing you pain..

I could be more specific based on that.

Offline pnutster

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 20:23:21 »
Attached a rendering and the area circled I experience the most pain / discomfort. Through ultrasound it has been diagnosed as tendonosis. Have had several physio-therapy treatments. From laser-therapy (at the acute stage where I couldn't even twist a doorknop without excruciating pain) to regular muscle / tendon treatments focussed on stretching and strengthening. However, the cause, working 8-10 hours a day in front of a computer is still there. (Senior Technical Support Analyst at a Web development company... long explanation for: Jack of all trades).

Appreciate the time and effort!!!

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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 21:17:25 »
Attached a rendering and the area circled I experience the most pain / discomfort. Through ultrasound it has been diagnosed as tendonosis. Have had several physio-therapy treatments. From laser-therapy (at the acute stage where I couldn't even twist a doorknop without excruciating pain) to regular muscle / tendon treatments focussed on stretching and strengthening. However, the cause, working 8-10 hours a day in front of a computer is still there. (Senior Technical Support Analyst at a Web development company... long explanation for: Jack of all trades).

Appreciate the time and effort!!!

Show Image


in both arms  or just 1 arm

PRIOR to your new keyboard, before you first went to the doctor..

Was your forearm touching the table ontop of it while you typed ?

what was your original typing situation like.

is there wrist pain.


Offline jacobolus

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 21:32:31 »
Tendinosis just means there’s chronic/long-term damage to the tendons, caused by a bunch of little tears in the tissue, and from what I understand it heals pretty slowly. I don’t think any of us here are physical therapists or orthopedic doctors, so you can probably get better general medical advice from professionals. My main advice would be: take breaks, don’t work too much, get enough sleep and exercise, eat properly, don’t get too stressed out, etc. As far as keyboard-specific advice goes, I think it sounds like you’re on the right track with the Kinesis Advantage.

I think the main things causing tendinitis and tendinosis while typing are wrists bent upward and excessive force mashing the keys down. But I haven’t seen any especially conclusive studies about this. (They might exist, if someone has some good references, I’d love to see them.)

I wish there were better research about the specific shocks felt by different tissues (bones/cartilage/ligaments/tendons/muscles) on different types of keyswitches and different keyboard shapes/positions, and with different typing styles. None of the papers I’ve seen are actually all that helpful, so take every bit of advice you get with a pinch of salt, and do what’s comfortable for you. This is more folk wisdom than hard science.

With that said, I find the most comfortable typing to be with my upper arms held loosely at my sides (not sticking out sideways or extended forward), my elbows at a 90–100° angle, my wrists as straight as they can get, and the keyboard angled to be parallel to my forearms (i.e. flat or slightly down-angled). On a fully split keyboard, the arms can be put in an even more neutral position by tenting the halves upward toward the center at a 20–40° angle, and turned by whatever amount keeps my wrists straight (the best amount varies between row-staggered vs. column-staggered keyboards). Occasional changes of position (e.g. switching between standing and sitting at my desk) are also helpful.

I’m hardly an expert on this either, but I find I best avoid fatigue when typing by trying to keep my finger motions springy and light. I want to make sure I put enough energy into the keystrokes to reliably actuate the switches, but not smash my fingers down any harder than necessary. There’s nothing wrong with “bottoming out” the switch, but mashing it down really hard into an abrupt stop ends up putting a lot of unnecessary shock into every press. (For me, bad rubber domes cause much faster fatigue than discrete mechanical switches, and I personally appreciate both tactile and audio feedback at actuation. YMMV.) I find it helpful to not rest my arms on any surface while typing, that way I can more easily move my hands slightly around the keyboard, to reduce the amount of reaching my fingers need to do (but without moving my hands so much that they’re way out of position for the next keystroke). Additionally, by having my forearms floating free, my whole forearm can pivot slightly at the elbow. The theory here goes that some of the shock of the keystrokes can then be absorbed in the large muscles in the upper arm which are responsible for flexing and extending the elbow. This is much less important/possible in typing on a standard keyboard than it is on chording stenography keyboards or when playing piano chords, but still helpful I find.

Assuming the upper arms are hanging straight down from the sides, I don’t think it’s impossibly much work for the biceps to hold the forearms up. The biceps are big muscles and should be able to hold the weight of the forearms for a substantial amount of time without getting too tired. In between bursts of typing, a palmrest can be helpful, or the arms can be rested in some other way, e.g. on the lap, the table surface, or chair armrests.

But again, as always, YMMV. If you find it’s more comfortable to use a palmrest while typing, go ahead.
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 January 2015, 21:38:30 by jacobolus »

Offline pnutster

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 21:55:01 »
in both arms  or just 1 arm

PRIOR to your new keyboard, before you first went to the doctor..

Was your forearm touching the table ontop of it while you typed ?

what was your original typing situation like.

is there wrist pain.

1.Just the left, non-mouse, arm
2. this was prior to my new keyboard, often resting my lowerarms on the desk/table (this was prior to having an under-the-desk-tray for the keyboard)
3. prior typing situation, large table, no ergonomics, crappy small modern mac keyboard that was causing huge unhealthy writs deviations. I would say often leaning wrists/lowerarms on the table, sometimes as worse as lowerarm "cutting" on edge of the table
4. Zero wrist pain
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Offline pnutster

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 23 January 2015, 22:23:57 »
Tendinosis just means there’s chronic/long-term damage to the tendons, caused by a bunch of little tears in the tissue, and from what I understand it heals pretty slowly. I don’t think any of us here are physical therapists or orthopedic doctors, so you can probably get better general medical advice from professionals. My main advice would be: take breaks, don’t work too much, get enough sleep and exercise, eat properly, don’t get too stressed out, etc. As far as keyboard-specific advice goes, I think it sounds like you’re on the right track with the Kinesis Advantage.

I think the main things causing tendinitis and tendinosis while typing are wrists bent upward and excessive force mashing the keys down. But I haven’t seen any especially conclusive studies about this. (They might exist, if someone has some good references, I’d love to see them.)

I wish there were better research about the specific shocks felt by different tissues (bones/cartilage/ligaments/tendons/muscles) on different types of keyswitches and different keyboard shapes/positions, and with different typing styles. None of the papers I’ve seen are actually all that helpful, so take every bit of advice you get with a pinch of salt, and do what’s comfortable for you. This is more folk wisdom than hard science.

With that said, I find the most comfortable typing to be with my upper arms held loosely at my sides (not sticking out sideways or extended forward), my elbows at a 90–100° angle, my wrists as straight as they can get, and the keyboard angled to be parallel to my forearms (i.e. flat or slightly down-angled). On a fully split keyboard, the arms can be put in an even more neutral position by tenting the halves upward toward the center at a 20–40° angle, and turned by whatever amount keeps my wrists straight (the best amount varies between row-staggered vs. column-staggered keyboards). Occasional changes of position (e.g. switching between standing and sitting at my desk) are also helpful.

I’m hardly an expert on this either, but I find I best avoid fatigue when typing by trying to keep my finger motions springy and light. I want to make sure I put enough energy into the keystrokes to reliably actuate the switches, but not smash my fingers down any harder than necessary. There’s nothing wrong with “bottoming out” the switch, but mashing it down really hard into an abrupt stop ends up putting a lot of unnecessary shock into every press. (For me, bad rubber domes cause much faster fatigue than discrete mechanical switches, and I personally appreciate both tactile and audio feedback at actuation. YMMV.) I find it helpful to not rest my arms on any surface while typing, that way I can more easily move my hands slightly around the keyboard, to reduce the amount of reaching my fingers need to do (but without moving my hands so much that they’re way out of position for the next keystroke). Additionally, by having my forearms floating free, my whole forearm can pivot slightly at the elbow. The theory here goes that some of the shock of the keystrokes can then be absorbed in the large muscles in the upper arm which are responsible for flexing and extending the elbow. This is much less important/possible in typing on a standard keyboard than it is on chording stenography keyboards or when playing piano chords, but still helpful I find.

Assuming the upper arms are hanging straight down from the sides, I don’t think it’s impossibly much work for the biceps to hold the forearms up. The biceps are big muscles and should be able to hold the weight of the forearms for a substantial amount of time without getting too tired. In between bursts of typing, a palmrest can be helpful, or the arms can be rested in some other way, e.g. on the lap, the table surface, or chair armrests.

But again, as always, YMMV. If you find it’s more comfortable to use a palmrest while typing, go ahead.

Appreciate the elaborate answer!

I certainly have gotten medical advice and am continuing to get treatments. I know for a fact as you mention, this is not an injury that will heal in 1-2 months when essentially keep on doing what is the main cause of it. Daily working full days on the computer. However, timely pauses, stretching and exercising make the problem workable. Certainly I will gladly read all the advice that fellow GH'ers may have, but realize it is a very personal situation. What may work for one, does not necessarily work for the other.

Of-course I know what to do for a long time.. Take breaks, drink enough water, stretch during breaks and exercise, but probably as many others, neglecting it. Just 5 more minutes to get that email out... write that piece of code.. and before I know it, I am an hour long hunched over into my screen... But getting better at it, using apps to remind me of pauses (Mac App: Time Out).

So the way I partly deal with it... I am a huge coffee addict, and (now don't laugh!! ;) ) when I make my coffee, I now always have a large glass of water before my coffee and while waiting for my coffee to finish in the machine, running up and down the stairs till completely winded and exhausted to get the blood flowing and the muscles working a bit before going back into my seat. Crazy, but it's insane how 5 minutes of walking stairs can exhaust you!!!

As for your mention of tendonosis because of wrists being bent upwards and excessive force mashing keys. I would say the wrist-bending part that is a thing of the past for me. Trying to become a more softer typer everyday and the Kinesis with my desk/keyboard tray setup surely keeps my wrists fairly straight.

Overall I think I am on the right track with keyboard, desk setup. You mentioned not resting your arms. I have thrown out my armrests about a year and a half ago, so my arms are free-floating all the way very close to my body.

Now as for the keyboard. Kinesis Advantage is as close as my favourite keyboard would be, except I wish it was split. I am on the lookout for a full split keyboard, as I think I could use even more space between left and right. Not a big fellow by any means, but sort of broad-shouldered. Perfect keyboard would be a Kinesis Freestyle (or Matias Ergo Pro) with matrix / column staggered layout and cup shape for the keys. ErgoDox has my interest interest as well, but as I mentioned, I really like the cup shape of Kinesis Advantage. And as for building it myself... the last time I soldered was 2 wires about 20 years ago and I think I short-circuited the place ;)
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 January 2015, 22:26:38 by pnutster »
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Offline hoggy

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 24 January 2015, 00:03:34 »
How about resting a coin on the back of your left hand?  It would be annoying as hell, but it would keep you focused.

Edit: Sorry, scrap that (didn't pay attention to the keyboard).  I'd go with the spikes, but blu-tac might be a friendlier alternative.
« Last Edit: Sat, 24 January 2015, 00:06:19 by hoggy »
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Offline islisis

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 24 January 2015, 09:04:46 »
i use an advantage and find: elbow - heavy support (armrest), forearm - light support (gel rest etc. towards edge of desk) for casual typing is easiest for me. for extended typing, floating arms or light elbow support.
« Last Edit: Sat, 24 January 2015, 09:13:37 by islisis »

Offline Lain1911

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 24 January 2015, 10:01:26 »
I can chime in only a little as I have tendonitis as well but in my right arm (mouse hand) and it's the tendon from the thumb and wraps around to my elbow. There has been occasions where it also hurts under my shoulder as well. My advice is a good arm brace and lots of rest when it becomes too much pain. I've had to stay off my computer for days and where my brace while I sleep for a while just to get back to a bearable state. Literally as soon as I put my hand I the mouse I would start hurting and when I took it off it would stop so there is no doubt where the pain was coming from. It's not as bad not but I have to work on not overdoing it because it does come back if I over use it. This includes non computer activities. If resting is not an option for you because you don't want to be in a situation where you can no longer work because it has finally been pushed over the edge of no return. Ive been to the same chiropractor for 20+ years and that's where I get my advice.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 24 January 2015, 11:36:36 »
Does your wrist often make angles such as in this photo..

Is your wrist usually straight ?

Do you keep it straight. but often make that angle to hit the left most keys ?





Do you keep your palm flat against the keyboard, or like in a handshake (near vertical)?

Offline pnutster

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 24 January 2015, 12:43:03 »
Does your wrist often make angles such as in this photo..

Is your wrist usually straight ?

Do you keep it straight. but often make that angle to hit the left most keys ?

Show Image




Do you keep your palm flat against the keyboard, or like in a handshake (near vertical)?

What you describe I try to avoid as much as possible, this was certainly part of the reason my problems started about 2 years before my attempts to a more ergonomic setup with under-the-desk keyboard tray and Kinesis Advantage keyboard. But certainly there is still a little deviation present even on the Advantage when I use left-shift with the pinky. Left shift is actually the only pinky stretch that causes the deviation, all other left keys for pinky I have remapped to thumbkeys. I do have a foot-pedal with my Advantage for the Shift-key, however this I often neglect. Going to work on this and using it more again.

As for tenting. The Kinesis Advantage has some natural built-in tenting, so not flat, probably 15º-20º angle.

I think you may have hit the hammer on the nail with the wrist deviation. I have been trying to wrap my head around all things I have (ergonomically) changed and why I am still experiencing problems. And this would be one of the things I am actually still doing (wrong) and has not really changed since my attempts to a more ergonomic setup. Certainly worth keeping an eye on and start using my shift pedal more again.

Thank you tp4tissue, thank you jacobolus and all others for your very welcome input on this matter!

P.S. Oobly...  tried the spikes... too bloody... not working well, making keys very slippery ;)
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 24 January 2015, 12:56:26 »
part of ergonomics will be relearning "not to tense up"   for certain motions.

For example.. If you've gotten used to using a very tense wrist motion to hold down the left-shift..  then even though now on the new setup you don't "NEED" to do it.. you end up doing it anyway out of habit..

lay your hand on the keyboard.. totally relax it.. close your eyes, and REMEMBER what that feels like..

That is your 0-state..   from there.. you rebuild precise muscle memory that doesn't involve tensing..


Offline pnutster

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 24 January 2015, 13:20:14 »
Relaxing the left lower-arm is something I am dreaming of for the past 2 years! There is the constant feeling of it being tense, even at night, still feels tense.

Physio-therapist has explained that the reason could be that the scar tissue around my tendon is taking up more space than a healthy tendon normally would and is hitting nerves and nerve tracts. Causing the sense of tension.

It's gonna be a long road still. My work will not change in the near future, so I will be trying out all things that come on my path to ease the discomfort.
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Offline TooBlond

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 09:43:59 »
Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..

When I first read this, I was thinking underarm as in under the shoulder joint.  Tp4tissue, I think that might be what you were referring to in the quote above.  If so, could you elaborate a bit because I have painful and tight tissue in that region.  What might I be doing to cause this trouble?  Thanks!

Offline Gerk

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 15:09:42 »
The best two piece of advice I can give are get your chair (and keyboard) up higher, if you're using a keyboard tray you're almost certainly way too low, don't forget that another part of proper ergonomics that a lot of people forget about is the mid to lower part of your body.  Unless you have very short legs you are almost certainly too low down.  IMHO keyboard drawers/trays should be banned! (unless you have a desk that's really really high up).

Second bit of advice is something that helped me a ton,get your chair armrests up higher and plant your elbows.  That helped me tons by taking a lot of the "pressure" off the rest of my arms and allowing me to concentrate on keeping my wrists straight and not letting them "slouch".  I don't use _any_ wrist rests in front of my board and that was one of the things that I didn't like about the Kinesis Advantage, you don't really have a choice.  That any the inverted style of the key wells really didn't work with the way my hands are.  It caused me a ton of issues when I tried to use one.

I have a Matias Ergo Pro on order and can't wait for it to arrive.  I suspect it's probably about as close to the perfect keyboard as I've found yet ... it being decent key switches and being truly split are two huge bonuses for me.  I've been using Goldtouch V2's for a few years now and like them but I'm starting to wear out the switches (can you call a rubber dome a switch?) -- but all-in-all they've more than done their duty for the amount of time I've gotten out of them.

Good luck with finding out what works for you.  While it's great to get advice from people it can be very different from person to person so sometimes what works great for one person is bad for the next.  You just have to keep at it and find what works best for you and stick with it.

P.S.  Also hello to a fellow canuck, I live just outside Toronto :)
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 17:43:56 »
The best two piece of advice I can give are get your chair (and keyboard) up higher, if you're using a keyboard tray you're almost certainly way too low, don't forget that another part of proper ergonomics that a lot of people forget about is the mid to lower part of your body.  Unless you have very short legs you are almost certainly too low down.  IMHO keyboard drawers/trays should be banned!
Readers should note that this advice (avoiding keyboard trays) contradicts every empirical study I’ve seen about the subject; there are consistent findings that a flat or negatively-tilted keyboard on a low desk or tray (placed such that when the elbows are at a 90–100° angle, the fingers comfortably rest on the home row with the wrists straight) partly solves many of the problems (tension in the shoulders and back, wrist extension leading to pressure in the carpal tunnel, tension in the arms, excessive striking forces causing finger joint problems, etc.) associated with typing using a keyboard on a “normal” height desk.

Quote
Second bit of advice is something that helped me a ton,get your chair armrests up higher and plant your elbows.
Probably reasonable enough to rest your elbows/forearms on something, but I also don’t think it’s strictly necessary.

My personal advice would be to get your hands to about the same level as your elbows or even slightly lower, with your upper arms hanging straight down at your sides (or maybe a little bit forward); this necessitates placing the keyboard either directly on your lap or on a tray, if sitting in a conventional office chair. If sitting in a taller chair with a tilted seat (or e.g. on a saddle chair, tall stool, etc.) then a normal height desk is probably already at the right height for that arm position, and there’s no need for a special keyboard tray. Or obviously when using a standing desk, there’s no need for a keyboard tray; when standing, put the desk at a height where a negatively sloped keyboard (-5° to -15°) is at a height such that you can put your fingers on the home row with your upper arms hanging straight down at your sides, your wrists kept straight, and your forearms parallel to the keyboard top.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 February 2015, 18:10:07 by jacobolus »

Offline pnutster

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 21:17:05 »
Thanks Gerk and Jacobolus,

Quote
The best two piece of advice I can give are get your chair (and keyboard) up higher, if you're using a keyboard tray you're almost certainly way too low, don't forget that another part of proper ergonomics that a lot of people forget about is the mid to lower part of your body.  Unless you have very short legs you are almost certainly too low down.  IMHO keyboard drawers/trays should be banned! (unless you have a desk that's really really high up).

For me personally the keyboard tray has since been a good solution after my first acute and most painful lower arm/ tendon problems. On top of that learning to touchtype on a Kinesis Advantage I believe has certainly saved me from major disaster. However, reading upon tendonosis will show that the healing process can be very slow.

Quote
Second bit of advice is something that helped me a ton,get your chair armrests up higher and plant your elbows.  That helped me tons by taking a lot of the "pressure" off the rest of my arms and allowing me to concentrate on keeping my wrists straight and not letting them "slouch".  I don't use _any_ wrist rests in front of my board and that was one of the things that I didn't like about the Kinesis Advantage, you don't really have a choice.  That any the inverted style of the key wells really didn't work with the way my hands are.  It caused me a ton of issues when I tried to use one.

As for armrests, they have really started to bother me and giving me pains in my shoulders. I have given up on armrests and removed them.

Quote
Good luck with finding out what works for you.  While it's great to get advice from people it can be very different from person to person so sometimes what works great for one person is bad for the next.  You just have to keep at it and find what works best for you and stick with it.

As you mention , solutions are very personal.

Quote
I have a Matias Ergo Pro on order and can't wait for it to arrive.  I suspect it's probably about as close to the perfect keyboard as I've found yet ... it being decent key switches and being truly split are two huge bonuses for me.  I've been using Goldtouch V2's for a few years now and like them but I'm starting to wear out the switches (can you call a rubber dome a switch?) -- but all-in-all they've more than done their duty for the amount of time I've gotten out of them.

I have been dubbing about that one, however, I think I am really liking the matrix keyboard layout. And since matrix is the first and only keyboard I learned to touch-type on, I find it really hard to type on a regular staggered board. However, the Ergopro is very tempting to try out. Especially since I would like to try more tenting as I think that could benefit me. However, I am not sure if the Ergopro is enough tenting though. If I am not mistaken jacobolus mentioned somewhere that tenting around 30º can be very beneficial. I fear the Ergopro is not going to be able to do that. That leads me to the Goldtouch, fairly affordable, I am actually sniping on a goldtouch right now, so hopefully I can get my hands on that for a good price. And that will do 30º tenting.

I will keep on trying to find a solution that works better than my current one and all advice is very much appreciated!!! Thanks for all the input!
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 08 February 2015, 22:41:34 »
However, the Ergopro is very tempting to try out. Especially since I would like to try more tenting as I think that could benefit me. However, I am not sure if the Ergopro is enough tenting though. If I am not mistaken jacobolus mentioned somewhere that tenting around 30º can be very beneficial. I fear the Ergopro is not going to be able to do that.
The ErgoPro has two entirely separate halves, meaning it can have as much tent as you want. Each half even has a tripod mount on the bottom, so you should be able to relatively easily build yourself some structure to hold the halves in whatever kind of position you prefer.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 05:01:55 »
Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..

When I first read this, I was thinking underarm as in under the shoulder joint.  Tp4tissue, I think that might be what you were referring to in the quote above.  If so, could you elaborate a bit because I have painful and tight tissue in that region.  What might I be doing to cause this trouble?  Thanks!


Could you please indicate the PRECISE - Position where pain is occurring for you.

Circled it on an  anatomy photo

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 10 February 2015, 05:12:49 »
As far as "ergonomic Certainty"..   It does not exists..

There is no ideal solution.

The reason for this is because the Human body was designed to MOVE..

And the fundamental shift in Modern Lifestyle is in turning human-beings into a stationary smart object, (relatively smart)..






Offline Gerk

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 10:07:48 »

Readers should note that this advice (avoiding keyboard trays) contradicts every empirical study I�ve seen about the subject; there are consistent findings that a flat or negatively-tilted keyboard on a low desk or tray (placed such that when the elbows are at a 90�100� angle, the fingers comfortably rest on the home row with the wrists straight) partly solves many of the problems (tension in the shoulders and back, wrist extension leading to pressure in the carpal tunnel, tension in the arms, excessive striking forces causing finger joint problems, etc.) associated with typing using a keyboard on a �normal� height desk.


What has this angle advice got to do with keyboard trays?  Unless you have incredibly short lower legs if you are using a keyboard tray under your desk then you are almost certainly not at the proper height for your LOWER body ergonomics -- this is what I was trying to illustrate here.  Your feet should be flat on the floor, your knees at (or very close to) a 90 degree angle with your upper legs (thighs) roughly parallel to the floor.
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Offline Gerk

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 10:10:23 »
P.S. YOu'll note that I said along with getting rid of the keyboard tray to also raise your chair ... so you're still going to have proper height and angles for both your arms AND your legs/lower body.  From my experience most people who are using a keyboard tray and still sitting in the wrong position for it, either super low with your arms angled up or too high with your arms almost right down in your lap.
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Offline Melvang

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 10:17:55 »

Readers should note that this advice (avoiding keyboard trays) contradicts every empirical study I�ve seen about the subject; there are consistent findings that a flat or negatively-tilted keyboard on a low desk or tray (placed such that when the elbows are at a 90�100� angle, the fingers comfortably rest on the home row with the wrists straight) partly solves many of the problems (tension in the shoulders and back, wrist extension leading to pressure in the carpal tunnel, tension in the arms, excessive striking forces causing finger joint problems, etc.) associated with typing using a keyboard on a �normal� height desk.


What has this angle advice got to do with keyboard trays?  Unless you have incredibly short lower legs if you are using a keyboard tray under your desk then you are almost certainly not at the proper height for your LOWER body ergonomics -- this is what I was trying to illustrate here.  Your feet should be flat on the floor, your knees at (or very close to) a 90 degree angle with your upper legs (thighs) roughly parallel to the floor.

P.S. YOu'll note that I said along with getting rid of the keyboard tray to also raise your chair ... so you're still going to have proper height and angles for both your arms AND your legs/lower body.  From my experience most people who are using a keyboard tray and still sitting in the wrong position for it, either super low with your arms angled up or too high with your arms almost right down in your lap.

I must be doing it wrong then.  My legs are parallel to the floor when I care enough to put my feet flat on the floor, arms are parallel with my elbows at roughly 90°.  But I have a keyboard tray with the keyboard even recessed into the tray.  I cut a hole into a new piece of wood for the tray and mounted the tabs at the front of the plate on the F AT to the bottom of it.  As a result the bottom of my space bar is actually below the top surface of my keyboard tray.  And the keyboard is at the same angle as it would be with the feet extended.  I am still able to hover with no discomfort.  Granted I don't type for a living, just a gamer.
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Offline Gerk

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 10:32:42 »
No not doing it wrong ... your body and desk heights are working with that approach if it all lines up for you then nothing is wrong.  I'm just trying to point out that this approach doesn't work for everybody.  Just globally saying "adding a keyboard tray improves your ergonomics -- which is what a lot of these studies say -- is not always correct.  If it works for you and things are lined up properly then you're doing it right!

There's another post linking to a decent youtube video and the guy in that video describes it better than me ... https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68719  Check out what he says at around the 2:20 mark.  I feel exactly the same way about it as him.  Of course I'm also 6' tall and 300lbs :D  Body size and shape always also make a huge difference in terms of ergonomics.
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Offline Melvang

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 10:38:38 »
Yeah, I watched that video as well.  Though if you watch the body position for the keyboard tray, and the desk are exactly the same.  Plus I feel that with him resting his forearms on the desk like that, he is opening himself up to carpal tunnel like symptoms down the road, and that is more difficult to fix than RSI.  While I do agree that more people need to pay more attention to ergonomics, especially with people that type or do any repetitive motion for a living.  Recommending a tray does work for the desk setups of most people as desk heights are more often than not set for writing on and not typing.  I am 6 foot tall as well but not that heavy,  so yeah what works for me may not work for you. 
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Offline Gerk

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 10:49:27 »
Well it all comes down to the position as you say (and he says in that video), I just wanted to point out that a "keyboard tray" does not magically make things more ergonomic just because of having one.  For me there's no way at all that a standard height desk and a keyboard tray could come close to working.  A taller high desk maybe (but they my whole desk work area would be too high).

I also agree with what you say about resting your forearms on the desk itself -- I don't do this (my forearms float and my elbows rest which has been perfect for me).

After just strolling around two offices here I can tell you first-hand that every single person/setup that has a keyboard tray attached had it wrong and in a very un-ergonomic manner, so I guess YMMV when it comes to it working by default.  It certainly doesn't here or at most setups that I've seen in my personal experience.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 12 February 2015, 13:21:06 »
After just strolling around two offices here I can tell you first-hand that every single person/setup that has a keyboard tray attached had it wrong and in a very un-ergonomic manner, so I guess YMMV when it comes to it working by default.  It certainly doesn't here or at most setups that I've seen in my personal experience.
I’ve strolled around 5–6 big offices in the last few months. About 90% of everyone has a very unergonomic setup. :-)

Offline TheSoulhunter

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Re: tips on not resting palms but hover
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 22:27:22 »