Antivax ?

[chyros]

Unethical is easy to solve. Institute a mandatory visit to a nearby location where you have to either get vaccinated on the spot, or sign a binding waiver that you'll not go to a hospital if you get sick from Covid. Won't help clear beds immediately, but should achieve similar results after 1-2 weeks.

I don't think this would be legal.  The hospital is not allowed to not treat a dying person.

Problem is how quickly they go from sniffles to dying with Covid.

The whole point is that the hospitals have plenty of people waiting for treatment even without Covid patients knocking on their door. And if they've been vaxxed, by all means, go ahead, save a life. Of course these patients should be treated.

What I DON'T agree with is antivaxxers getting sick and then taking up an IC bed that bars literally DOZENS of patients from getting life-saving treatments. Do you know how many cancer patients are having to wait for a treatment just because a whole bunch of people refuse to take responsibility? I mean if not getting vaccinated is that important to you, they ought to put their money where their mouth is, IMO.

[tp4tissue]

The whole point is that the hospitals have plenty of people waiting for treatment even without Covid patients knocking on their door. And if they've been vaxxed, by all means, go ahead, save a life. Of course these patients should be treated.

What I DON'T agree with is antivaxxers getting sick and then taking up an IC bed that bars literally DOZENS of patients from getting life-saving treatments. Do you know how many cancer patients are having to wait for a treatment just because a whole bunch of people refuse to take responsibility? I mean if not getting vaccinated is that important to you, they ought to put their money where their mouth is, IMO.

Upfront I agree.    But intellectual inequality is a product of education, where both the quality and access is gated by socio-economic classes. 

You can't entirely blame the poorly educated for this outcome.  The leadership (economic and political) extracted too much time-wealth from the poor,  the poor spent what little time they had on entertainment instead of self-improvement, and we end up with a largely dim-witted population.

Taken to the extreme in slavery, would you turn around and blame the slaves for not knowing better how to fight for their best interest when they live under malnourishment and the whip ?

There is no disagreement here that antivaxxers are stupid,  but the ethical treatment clause is there because their misfortune is not "entirely" their fault.

[kurplop]

What I DON'T agree with is antivaxxers getting sick and then taking up an IC bed that bars literally DOZENS of patients from getting life-saving treatments. Do you know how many cancer patients are having to wait for a treatment just because a whole bunch of people refuse to take responsibility? I mean if not getting vaccinated is that important to you, they ought to put their money where their mouth is, IMO.

Do you think that same protocol should apply to all behavior considered risky:sky diving, poor diet, inadequate or excessive sun exposure, smoking, unprotected casual sex, excessive drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc.?

[tp4tissue]

Do you think that same protocol should apply to all behavior considered risky:sky diving, poor diet, inadequate or excessive sun exposure, smoking, unprotected casual sex, excessive drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc.?

The focus on treatment is a consequence of capitalism.   We should invest more into Prevention:

Using Cheaper GPU prices, to prevent sky diving;

Whole food plant based diet, to prevent poor diet;
More Windows, inadequate or excessive sun exposure
Cheaper GPU prices, smoking
Cheaper GPU Prices, unprotected casual sex
Cheaper GPU prices, excessive drinking
sedentary lifestyle,
Cheaper GPU prices, etc.

[Leslieann]

Do you think that same protocol should apply to all behavior considered risky:sky diving, poor diet, inadequate or excessive sun exposure, smoking, unprotected casual sex, excessive drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc.?

None of that is even remotely the same as a pandemic.
All of that is predictable, we're equipped for it, our hospitals are geared for daily life problems including everything you mentioned with a few spare beds, they are not equipped for a 10,000% surge.

What part of this do you not understand?

[chyros]

What I DON'T agree with is antivaxxers getting sick and then taking up an IC bed that bars literally DOZENS of patients from getting life-saving treatments. Do you know how many cancer patients are having to wait for a treatment just because a whole bunch of people refuse to take responsibility? I mean if not getting vaccinated is that important to you, they ought to put their money where their mouth is, IMO.

Do you think that same protocol should apply to all behavior considered risky:sky diving, poor diet, inadequate or excessive sun exposure, smoking, unprotected casual sex, excessive drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc.?

If there was one bed available and I'd have to choose between treating lung cancer in a heavy smoker vs a non-smoker, I'd know which to choose, yes. Plus, we already penalise certain unhealthy acts such as smoking and drinking. However, you're naming a lot of long-term things. Getting a vaccination takes a few minutes, not a lifetime. Plus, we're dealing with a rapidly spreading virus with which you're at risk of spreading to others - the danger goes way beyond yourself. The question is a rather apples-and-pears IMO.

[chyros]

The whole point is that the hospitals have plenty of people waiting for treatment even without Covid patients knocking on their door. And if they've been vaxxed, by all means, go ahead, save a life. Of course these patients should be treated.

What I DON'T agree with is antivaxxers getting sick and then taking up an IC bed that bars literally DOZENS of patients from getting life-saving treatments. Do you know how many cancer patients are having to wait for a treatment just because a whole bunch of people refuse to take responsibility? I mean if not getting vaccinated is that important to you, they ought to put their money where their mouth is, IMO.

Upfront I agree.    But intellectual inequality is a product of education, where both the quality and access is gated by socio-economic classes. 

You can't entirely blame the poorly educated for this outcome.  The leadership (economic and political) extracted too much time-wealth from the poor,  the poor spent what little time they had on entertainment instead of self-improvement, and we end up with a largely dim-witted population.

Taken to the extreme in slavery, would you turn around and blame the slaves for not knowing better how to fight for their best interest when they live under malnourishment and the whip ?

There is no disagreement here that antivaxxers are stupid,  but the ethical treatment clause is there because their misfortune is not "entirely" their fault.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Perhaps it's because of the difference in socio-political climates in our countries that I can't identify, but frankly I find that a poor excuse. Not knowing the law isn't an excuse for breaking it, either. In this life, your choices have consequences - that's something we all have to live with. And frankly there is MORE than enough information about this virus out there that you couldn't miss even if you tried. The only conclusion is that if you're uneducated about the basic aspects of vaccination, you're choosing to be.

[fohat.digs]

because of the difference in socio-political climates in our countries

I doubt that many non-Americans can understand the schizophrenic split that has ripped us apart during the past 4 decades.

After WW2, much of the developed world rebuilt itself in the (successful) image of the US social democracy. That is why Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, etc, have become brilliant success stories in their reconstruction, while we have, in many ways, stagnated.

Here, though, the upsurge of progressive social advancement infuriated the entrenched powers, and mobilized them, beginning in the late-1950s, to oppose progressive change at every opportunity. They achieved their goal when Reagan took office and began the relentless assault on civil rights, unions, and ripping away the "rules and regulations" that preserve democracy itself. His destructive message, distilled into one sentence that he loved to repeat at any opportunity, was "Government is the problem, not the solution."

Today, almost a third of our population actually believes that damaging and short-circuiting the operation of our government is good for the country.

Here is a comprehensive look at the situation:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30011020-democracy-in-chains

[tp4tissue]

Public sector leaders have been asked to prepare for "worst case scenarios" of 10%, 20% and 25% absence rates, the Cabinet Office said.

The UK has seen record numbers of daily cases over the festive period.

Transport, the NHS and schools have already seen the effect of absences.

Rising case numbers have led to large numbers self-isolating and being unable to go to work. This has particularly affected industries where staff are unable to work from home.

[kurplop]

Do you think that same protocol should apply to all behavior considered risky:sky diving, poor diet, inadequate or excessive sun exposure, smoking, unprotected casual sex, excessive drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc.?

None of that is even remotely the same as a pandemic.
All of that is predictable, we're equipped for it, our hospitals are geared for daily life problems including everything you mentioned with a few spare beds, they are not equipped for a 10,000% surge.

What part of this do you not understand?

I don't understand how people overburdening the healthcare system is any different whether it's caused by not being vaccinated (assuming the vaccines are effective and I believe they reduce the severity of the Covid), or other causes the are preventable. What don't you understand about that?

For decades, medical ethicists have asked similar questions, whether it's triaging patients or deciding who should get the donor liver. As long as medical care is in scarcity, whether caused by a pandemic or economic realities, my question is valid.

[noisyturtle]

Working in retail is scary right now, and very much compounded in a wealthy area with an almost exclusive Karenesque client base. While about 88% of people comply with mask regulations and safety, the 12% who don't really go out of their way to make it an absolute nightmare to deal with them. Lucky to live in an area the population mostly complies though.

The exact opposite reactions vs working in GameStop and asking for mask compliance. At GS a customer 100% of the time would be super cool and either mask up, or step out and wait for their friend. At Whole Foods it is a huge scene with screaming and "How dare you"s peppered liberally throughout basically every single time.

[chyros]

Do you think that same protocol should apply to all behavior considered risky:sky diving, poor diet, inadequate or excessive sun exposure, smoking, unprotected casual sex, excessive drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc.?

None of that is even remotely the same as a pandemic.
All of that is predictable, we're equipped for it, our hospitals are geared for daily life problems including everything you mentioned with a few spare beds, they are not equipped for a 10,000% surge.

What part of this do you not understand?

I don't understand how people overburdening the healthcare system is any different whether it's caused by not being vaccinated (assuming the vaccines are effective and I believe they reduce the severity of the Covid), or other causes the are preventable. What don't you understand about that?

For decades, medical ethicists have asked similar questions, whether it's triaging patients or deciding who should get the donor liver. As long as medical care is in scarcity, whether caused by a pandemic or economic realities, my question is valid.

Again, maybe it's different where you live, but before the pandemic, I wouldn't say medical care here is "in scarcity". And if they invent a pill or vaccine against cancer or other diseases, I'll probably be backing the same statement. But I wouldn't call dodging a vaccination out of sheer stupidity and not doing your 5 a day every day the same thing.

[kurplop]

Do you think that same protocol should apply to all behavior considered risky:sky diving, poor diet, inadequate or excessive sun exposure, smoking, unprotected casual sex, excessive drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc.?

None of that is even remotely the same as a pandemic.
All of that is predictable, we're equipped for it, our hospitals are geared for daily life problems including everything you mentioned with a few spare beds, they are not equipped for a 10,000% surge.

What part of this do you not understand?

I don't understand how people overburdening the healthcare system is any different whether it's caused by not being vaccinated (assuming the vaccines are effective and I believe they reduce the severity of the Covid), or other causes the are preventable. What don't you understand about that?

For decades, medical ethicists have asked similar questions, whether it's triaging patients or deciding who should get the donor liver. As long as medical care is in scarcity, whether caused by a pandemic or economic realities, my question is valid.

Again, maybe it's different where you live, but before the pandemic, I wouldn't say medical care here is "in scarcity". And if they invent a pill or vaccine against cancer or other diseases, I'll probably be backing the same statement. But I wouldn't call dodging a vaccination out of sheer stupidity and not doing your 5 a day every day the same thing.

Where I live, It is common for people to wait months to see a specialist. I would call that scarcity. Especially with a cancer diagnoses where early detection and treatment is critical. Also, medical  costs outpacing inflation is an empirical indicator of a supply shortfall (at least in a free market society). I agree that there is a difference between not being vaccinated and some of the other risk factors mentioned earlier, but not as much as you may be implying. Why shouldn’t the individual be responsible for their choices instead of society?

[chyros]

Do you think that same protocol should apply to all behavior considered risky:sky diving, poor diet, inadequate or excessive sun exposure, smoking, unprotected casual sex, excessive drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc.?

None of that is even remotely the same as a pandemic.
All of that is predictable, we're equipped for it, our hospitals are geared for daily life problems including everything you mentioned with a few spare beds, they are not equipped for a 10,000% surge.

What part of this do you not understand?

I don't understand how people overburdening the healthcare system is any different whether it's caused by not being vaccinated (assuming the vaccines are effective and I believe they reduce the severity of the Covid), or other causes the are preventable. What don't you understand about that?

For decades, medical ethicists have asked similar questions, whether it's triaging patients or deciding who should get the donor liver. As long as medical care is in scarcity, whether caused by a pandemic or economic realities, my question is valid.

Again, maybe it's different where you live, but before the pandemic, I wouldn't say medical care here is "in scarcity". And if they invent a pill or vaccine against cancer or other diseases, I'll probably be backing the same statement. But I wouldn't call dodging a vaccination out of sheer stupidity and not doing your 5 a day every day the same thing.

Where I live, It is common for people to wait months to see a specialist. I would call that scarcity. Especially with a cancer diagnoses where early detection and treatment is critical. Also, medical  costs outpacing inflation is an empirical indicator of a supply shortfall (at least in a free market society). I agree that there is a difference between not being vaccinated and some of the other risk factors mentioned earlier, but not as much as you may be implying. Why shouldn’t the individual be responsible for their choices instead of society?

There's definitely more scarcity where you live, then. And honestly, something like a tax on unhealthy foods for example may not be a bad thing to consider. It already exists in several places. That way, the extra money can go to hospitals to help deal with it - a bit like smokers' and drinkers' taxes go to healthcare already.

But those are well-known and established things we have a lot of experience with, and facilities for. We don't for the pandemic. We don't have the same luxuries.

[Leslieann]

I don't understand how people overburdening the healthcare system is any different whether it's caused by not being vaccinated (assuming the vaccines are effective and I believe they reduce the severity of the Covid), or other causes the are preventable. What don't you understand about that?

For decades, medical ethicists have asked similar questions, whether it's triaging patients or deciding who should get the donor liver. As long as medical care is in scarcity, whether caused by a pandemic or economic realities, my question is valid.

Those are ongoing issues and the whole overburden is bush*t.
Does it cost money, yes, but it's built into the system because it's an ongoing problem, they didn't spring up out of nowhere, we had time to adapt to them. "Overburden" in this case just means you don't want to pay for someone else's care. I guarantee you, you do something unhealthy someone else also doesn't want to pay for. Do you work out and exercise, well some people believe your heart only has x number of pumps and any stress leads to an early death (Trump is one of them). Good luck finding a middle ground where everyone is happy with what is covered. 

Pandemics like Covid happen every 100 years or so, so should we build hospitals with them in mind, always have 100 spare beds, rooms and associated staff (around 400 people) to handle them at every hospital?  Is that enough? Is it too much? How much of a burden is that going to be? And without knowing ahead of time how it's transmitted all your efforts could be a waste, or completely overbuilt.  Keep in mind it may be 20, 50, 80, 200 or maybe 500 years before the next one, 100 is just an average.


The truth is, we actually did have some systems in place to protect against this sort of thing, we had spare ventilators, beds, masks, gloves, oxygen, etc. stockpiled in warehouses in expectation of this exact thing. They could be rolled out in an emergency to keep hospitals stockpiled, we've had it for decades. Bush Jr. was informed by our pandemic czar (yes, that job exists to procure this sort of stuff and handle planning for one) and Clinton, Obama and Trump were all told to expect a pandemic in the very near future. Trump fired the person charge of it, sold some of it off and then let the medical certifications on the rest of it go bad. We sent THOUSANDS of ventilators to garbage dumps just a year prior to Covid.

So even if you think it's a good idea to have all of that stuff on the ready you have 100 years during which time it only takes one idiot to come along and decide it's a burden on the system and we should get rid of it.

edit: chyros posted while I was still writing my response and beat me to some of it.

[kurplop]

Leslieann, you’re sounding very emotional about a very academic question I asked about healthcare. I was not questioning anything about Covid policies except how their practices compare to past practices regarding health services provided to people who in some ways are responsible for their conditions. Government has been assigned the rightful role in health concerns greater than the individual. As soon as they claim responsibility for health outcomes for the individual they, by necessity, have the right to limit personal freedom. This concerns me.

There will always be differences of opinions about best health practices: animal  vs plant based diets, high physical activity vs emphasis  on inactivity, western vs eastern medicine—the list can go on and on and one size doesn’t fit all. Let people make there own health and lifestyle choices and let them accept the consequences, good or bad, for them.

BTW, excessive costs and limited access to healthcare has been a constant concern in the US since at least the Clinton administration. I would hardly call my “overburdening” comment bull.

[tp4tissue]

Why shouldn’t the individual be responsible for their choices instead of society?

The individual should be responsible, but they can not be responsible for the "entirety" of their happenstance.

Let's say a person is born low on the socio-economic ladder. He's going to play that hand of cards regardless.  There are limited options available to him.  It may also be the case that most of those options are bad.

If his parents were not well educated, then they pass down a set-of-worldly-ignorances to him, he becomes a bigot or some colloquial low life, that's just playing his hand. 

Rags to riches is extremely rare, and coming out of a backwards mindset typically takes more than 1 generation of climbing.

Now, in a world with even greater economic gap, the climb is extended.  The wealthy made those decisions, not the poor.

A great deal of the rural population are also basically <Pre-Internet> during their basic education, so there's a LOT of updates/patches missing in their general comprehension.


Then we look at education. The Vaxxed often exclaim, don't these anti-vax understand statistics ?, can't they see that the numbers add up to xxxx-outcome and explains xxxx-options.

Go to any college, they have remedial-math-courses.   What IS remedial math. Basically,   anything between fractions and algebra 1.

Now, this is age 18+,  what if a person didn't go to colllaag, well.. he enters the world with very little number sense beyond, bigger number means more.

LOTS of people take remedial math.  Lots of people don't go to collag.
 

[Darthbaggins]

Leslieann, you’re sounding very emotional about a very academic question I asked about healthcare. I was not questioning anything about Covid policies except how their practices compare to past practices regarding health services provided to people who in some ways are responsible for their conditions. Government has been assigned the rightful role in health concerns greater than the individual. As soon as they claim responsibility for health outcomes for the individual they, by necessity, have the right to limit personal freedom. This concerns me.

There will always be differences of opinions about best health practices: animal  vs plant based diets, high physical activity vs emphasis  on inactivity, western vs eastern medicine—the list can go on and on and one size doesn’t fit all. Let people make there own health and lifestyle choices and let them accept the consequences, good or bad, for them.

BTW, excessive costs and limited access to healthcare has been a constant concern in the US since at least the Clinton administration. I would hardly call my “overburdening” comment bull.

Not seeing anything emotional from Leslie's posts concerning your (imo) trap of a post.

[kurplop]

Thank you TP, I agree with the bulk of what you are saying.

[tp4tissue]

Pandemics like Covid happen every 100 years or so, so should we build hospitals with them in mind, always have 100 spare beds, rooms and associated staff (around 400 people) to handle them at every hospital?  Is that enough? Is it too much? How much of a burden is that going to be? And without knowing ahead of time how it's transmitted all your efforts could be a waste, or completely overbuilt.  Keep in mind it may be 20, 50, 80, 200 or maybe 500 years before the next one, 100 is just an average.

We've had many close calls with Hundreds of such viruses in the last 50 years with the proliferation of CAFO  Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations. <animal agriculture>

If the trend continues, it's likely we'll have something serious like covid every 5-10 years.  NOT 100.

The majority of major pandemics are Zoonotic. Virus jump from animal host (harmless to that animal) , into humans, wrecking havok.

End animal agriculture, and it'll take care of 90% of pandemic risk.

[fanpeople]

Not seeing anythign emotional from Leslie's posts concerning your (imo) trap of a post.

Seconded, pretty level headed response. Not emotional.

[fohat.digs]

TP, I agree with the bulk of what you are saying.

This should be a T-shirt or bumper sticker.

[tp4tissue]

TP, I agree with the bulk of what you are saying.

This should be a T-shirt or bumper sticker.

[Leslieann]

Leslieann, you’re sounding very emotional about a very academic question I asked about healthcare. I was not questioning anything about Covid policies except how their practices compare to past practices regarding health services provided to people who in some ways are responsible for their conditions. Government has been assigned the rightful role in health concerns greater than the individual. As soon as they claim responsibility for health outcomes for the individual they, by necessity, have the right to limit personal freedom. This concerns me.

There will always be differences of opinions about best health practices: animal  vs plant based diets, high physical activity vs emphasis  on inactivity, western vs eastern medicine—the list can go on and on and one size doesn’t fit all. Let people make there own health and lifestyle choices and let them accept the consequences, good or bad, for them.

BTW, excessive costs and limited access to healthcare has been a constant concern in the US since at least the Clinton administration. I would hardly call my “overburdening” comment bull.

You're meshing lifestyle and health issues/policies/choices with a global pandemic, yes they're medical issues, but I've not heard of anyone catching cancer or obesity from another person, your analogy would be better suited to something like flu or the common cold.


As for frustration, while I thought it was level headed, we were discussing apples and oranges and you walked in shouting "pizza".


edit: formatting and less antagonistic.

[tp4tissue]

Leslieann, you’re sounding very emotional about a very academic question I asked about healthcare. I was not questioning anything about Covid policies except how their practices compare to past practices regarding health services provided to people who in some ways are responsible for their conditions. Government has been assigned the rightful role in health concerns greater than the individual. As soon as they claim responsibility for health outcomes for the individual they, by necessity, have the right to limit personal freedom. This concerns me.

There will always be differences of opinions about best health practices: animal  vs plant based diets, high physical activity vs emphasis  on inactivity, western vs eastern medicine—the list can go on and on and one size doesn’t fit all. Let people make there own health and lifestyle choices and let them accept the consequences, good or bad, for them.

BTW, excessive costs and limited access to healthcare has been a constant concern in the US since at least the Clinton administration. I would hardly call my “overburdening” comment bull.

You're meshing lifestyle and health issues/policies/choices with a global pandemic, yes they're medical issues, but I've not heard of anyone catching cancer or obesity from another person, your analogy would be better suited to something like flu or the common cold.

Basically were comparing apples and oranges and you walk by and shout "pizza".
It has no bearing on the conversation but you can't seem to understand the difference.

LLann, You guys are talking about "different things".

Kurplop is on the side where collective societal decisions ascertain negative outcomes that we have no choice but to deal with.

LLann wants to punish the antivax because they're responsible for what agency they possess.

Both things need to happen as part of the system.

Some punishment, and some societal reorganization.

[Leslieann]

LLann wants to punish the antivax because they're responsible for what agency they possess.

Not punish, live by what they speak.
Don't tell us we have to live with the consequences of our decision to get vaccinated and then soak up all of the medical resources when your decision not to doesn't work out, that's the consequence of their own decision. It's ridiculous that someone, through no part of their own, gets in a car wreck and dies because some anti-vaxxer is taking up a hospital bed because they didn't want the vaccine .

And it's not that I want them to die, this forces to actually consider their actions and hopefully stop acting like petulant children.

[chyros]

Why shouldn’t the individual be responsible for their choices instead of society?

The individual should be responsible, but they can not be responsible for the "entirety" of their happenstance.

Let's say a person is born low on the socio-economic ladder. He's going to play that hand of cards regardless.  There are limited options available to him.  It may also be the case that most of those options are bad.

If his parents were not well educated, then they pass down a set-of-worldly-ignorances to him, he becomes a bigot or some colloquial low life, that's just playing his hand. 

Rags to riches is extremely rare, and coming out of a backwards mindset typically takes more than 1 generation of climbing.

Now, in a world with even greater economic gap, the climb is extended.  The wealthy made those decisions, not the poor.

A great deal of the rural population are also basically <Pre-Internet> during their basic education, so there's a LOT of updates/patches missing in their general comprehension.


Then we look at education. The Vaxxed often exclaim, don't these anti-vax understand statistics ?, can't they see that the numbers add up to xxxx-outcome and explains xxxx-options.

Go to any college, they have remedial-math-courses.   What IS remedial math. Basically,   anything between fractions and algebra 1.

Now, this is age 18+,  what if a person didn't go to colllaag, well.. he enters the world with very little number sense beyond, bigger number means more.

LOTS of people take remedial math.  Lots of people don't go to collag.
 

I'm sorry, I can't accept poverty as an excuse for deliberately ignoring public service announcements. If you're too poor to be educated, OK fine, but that doesn't mean you should think that you're better than people who DO know what they're talking about.

You can't escape news about how vaccinations work and how they save lives nowadays. If you choose not to take them, it's not a matter of being uneducated, it's a matter of deliberately ignoring or denying public news.

Pandemics like Covid happen every 100 years or so, so should we build hospitals with them in mind, always have 100 spare beds, rooms and associated staff (around 400 people) to handle them at every hospital?  Is that enough? Is it too much? How much of a burden is that going to be? And without knowing ahead of time how it's transmitted all your efforts could be a waste, or completely overbuilt.  Keep in mind it may be 20, 50, 80, 200 or maybe 500 years before the next one, 100 is just an average.

We've had many close calls with Hundreds of such viruses in the last 50 years with the proliferation of CAFO  Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations. <animal agriculture>

If the trend continues, it's likely we'll have something serious like covid every 5-10 years.  NOT 100.

The majority of major pandemics are Zoonotic. Virus jump from animal host (harmless to that animal) , into humans, wrecking havok.

End animal agriculture, and it'll take care of 90% of pandemic risk.

You don't need to end ALL animal agriculture. Perhaps people should just stop eating bat soup and pangolin steak .

[fohat.digs]

poverty as an excuse for deliberately ignoring public service

One of the core components of the Radical Right's diseducation agenda was the creation of an angry under-class propelled and informed by what I would call "aggressive ignorance" - a sort of ersatz Marxism focusing its vitriol on an imaginary left-leaning cabal to divert attention directly away from the politicians who were actually inflicting the pain on them.

[tp4tissue]

I'm sorry, I can't accept poverty as an excuse for deliberately ignoring public service announcements. If you're too poor to be educated, OK fine, but that doesn't mean you should think that you're better than people who DO know what they're talking about.

You don't need to end ALL animal agriculture. Perhaps people should just stop eating bat soup and pangolin steak .

Take the steps backwards,  how is a slave suppose to understand what he was never taught.

Your assumption is that everyone has the same lvl of critical thinking to discern fact from fiction, right from wrong. Intellect require many precursors that have to be taught, people who enter the workforce earlier often miss these lessons completely.

In the US, these people typically identify with the republican banner, because that politisphere deliberately marketed to the underclass, and banked on their ignorance.

[tp4tissue]

You know, If another 4-6 Million republicans die, which could easily happen between now and 2024, and _the_ UStates hasn't collapsed, no reactors blown, or russian invasion,  This could ensure swing state victories.

[tp4tissue]

Anyone --Suspicious-- of these written nurses bedside accounts popping up lately ?

They're extremely well written.. Sure, nurses are educated people, surely some of them have writing skills, but incredibly coherent and stylistically uniform..  Hrrrm......  And Multiple, not just 1 nurse.. hrrrm....

[Leslieann]

Anyone --Suspicious-- of these written nurses bedside accounts popping up lately ?

They're extremely well written.. Sure, nurses are educated people, surely some of them have writing skills, but incredibly coherent and stylistically uniform..  Hrrrm......  And Multiple, not just 1 nurse.. hrrrm....

I'm reminded of a story I heard a few years ago...
Some famous older rock musician (I forget who) walked into a bar and heard a band just killing it and yet he'd never heard of them, after listening for a bit he realized that his band wasn't really any better than this one, they just got a lucky break by in being in the right place at the right time and meeting the right people. Both bands could have easily swapped places in history and no one would have known.

And it really is that simple.
There is a ton of raw talent out there but life, desires, and luck can all get in the way and prevent you from becoming the next Beatles, George R. R. Martin or Elon Musk. Ask yourself how many of those people do we even need? The odds of you breaking through and becoming famous or even an industry leader becomes less and less every day as the population gets larger and larger and more and more educated.

[tp4tissue]

Patients are dying 100 feet from the Hospital door when the beds are full. The wait time goes to several hours, even for REAL emergencies.

Dang, treatable , large accidents/heart attacks/strokes  are all Instant Kills now.


Don't do anything big during covid peaks, you could die.

[tp4tissue]

This is insane,  you don't want covid guys,  when they have to strap you to one of these, it's like 99% death.

[Leslieann]

This is insane,  you don't want covid guys,  when they have to strap you to one of these, it's like 99% death.

And if that doesn't kill you, the cost will if you're in the U.S.

[chyros]

Patients are dying 100 feet from the Hospital door when the beds are full. The wait time goes to several hours, even for REAL emergencies.

Dang, treatable , large accidents/heart attacks/strokes  are all Instant Kills now.


Don't do anything big during covid peaks, you could die.

Exactly my point. This is inexcusable.

[noisyturtle]

Anyone --Suspicious-- of these written nurses bedside accounts popping up lately ?

They're extremely well written.. Sure, nurses are educated people, surely some of them have writing skills, but incredibly coherent and stylistically uniform..  Hrrrm......  And Multiple, not just 1 nurse.. hrrrm....

I'm reminded of a story I heard a few years ago...
Some famous older rock musician (I forget who) walked into a bar and heard a band just killing it and yet he'd never heard of them, after listening for a bit he realized that his band wasn't really any better than this one, they just got a lucky break by in being in the right place at the right time and meeting the right people. Both bands could have easily swapped places in history and no one would have known.

And it really is that simple.
There is a ton of raw talent out there but life, desires, and luck can all get in the way and prevent you from becoming the next Beatles, George R. R. Martin or Elon Musk. Ask yourself how many of those people do we even need? The odds of you breaking through and becoming famous or even an industry leader becomes less and less every day as the population gets larger and larger and more and more educated.

This is the sad realization of life - It is 100% random chaos. Nothing you do matters.
Good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people, sometimes you work your ass off and get nowhere, some people do almost nothing and have it all handed to them. Complete chaos, so you may as well just try and be as happy as you are able to in the here and now. The only thing you have any effect upon is what is happening right now, directly around you.

[tp4tissue]

These covid testing sites,   So many people on that line, couldn't they infect one another ?   They seem to all be pretty close, and some mouth breathers.

[Leslieann]

These covid testing sites,   So many people on that line, couldn't they infect one another ?   They seem to all be pretty close, and some mouth breathers.

Just today saw a line, probably 60 people, no social distancing at all... I mean, come on.

Saw a drive up test site on Tuesday, 1/2mile line of cars,  Wed. was 1/8 mile but it was earlier in the day, it probably stretched to 1/2 mile by the time every was off work.

[suicidal_orange]

When I went for a PCR one of the guys directing cars was refusing to get tested.  Maybe he always works outside, wearing a mask and not actually talking to people except through closed car windows (which is all I saw him do) so he's not really at risk but it did seem strange.  Unless they're supposed to be tested every day and his nose got sore...

When I went to get my booster the other day it was mostly staffed by young people wearing RAF (military airforce) uniforms, that was strange too. 

[tp4tissue]

When I went for a PCR one of the guys directing cars was refusing to get tested.  Maybe he always works outside, wearing a mask and not actually talking to people except through closed car windows (which is all I saw him do) so he's not really at risk but it did seem strange.  Unless they're supposed to be tested every day and his nose got sore...

When I went to get my booster the other day it was mostly staffed by young people wearing RAF (military airforce) uniforms, that was strange too. 

Coylent Green is made of covid victims...

/gassspp

[fanpeople]

it was mostly staffed by young people wearing RAF (military airforce) uniforms, that was strange too.

That's for the free labour. Poor ****ers probably got recalled off leave. Different part of the world but Australia has developed a recent fetish for trying to make Defence do everything natural disaster/pandemic, pretty much everything that isn't their primary function. It's pissing the majority of Defence pers off also.

[tp4tissue]

it was mostly staffed by young people wearing RAF (military airforce) uniforms, that was strange too.

That's for the free labour. Poor ****ers probably got recalled off leave. Different part of the world but Australia has developed a recent fetish for trying to make Defence do everything natural disaster/pandemic, pretty much everything that isn't their primary function. It's pissing the majority of Defence pers off also.

Well, most of the time defense is paid to do nothing but sit on their butts..

Tp4 has observed that the soldier stuff is basically alot of bad command organization and waiting around doing nothing.

Not that Tp4 is making fun of soldiering,  Tp4 has asthma, can't run long.

[fohat.digs]

trying to make Defence do everything

I understand, but it is a good strong healthy pool of labor that is getting paid anyway. If the alternative is fighting a war, then this is more mundane but less hazardous.

[tp4tissue]

I understand, but it is a good strong healthy pool of labor that is getting paid anyway. If the alternative is fighting a war, then this is more mundane but less hazardous.

They should make the military all farmers when they're not active.

Why run with a backpack, when you could be plant thousands of trees instead.

[fanpeople]

 

[noisyturtle]

I have received 3 "We have been notified within the last 5 days that your location has a confirmed case of COVID-19" texts in the last 3 days.
Not sure if they are the same one, or what location they are talking about, or wtf am I supposed to do with this info days later.

Thanks for the useless heads up that does nothing but stress me out further.

[Leslieann]

Well, most of the time defense is paid to do nothing but sit on their butts..

Tp4 has observed that the soldier stuff is basically alot of bad command organization and waiting around doing nothing.

Hardly.

Here's a normal day working F-16's (Chair Force!), keep in mind, F-16's are considered one of the easiest fighters to maintain and needs some of the lowest amount of repairs per flight hour.
Day shift (8 hours)
come in, get assigned to jet, spend ~2 hours prepping for flight,
spend an hour launching plane
grab a quick bite to eat (about 40 minutes, if the plane doesn't have a problem and come back)
catch plane spend 1-3 hours inspecting plane
spend an hour launching plane
Hand jet over to night shift, clean up, pack up tools/equipment

Night shift  (min. 10 hours, often 11-12)
come in, get assigned to jet, do turnover, setup equipment/prepare to catch jet
catch jet, spend 3-6 hours inspecting jet.
grab a quick bite to eat (about 40 minutes, if the plane doesn't have a problem and come back)
spend the next 4-6 hours repairing broken aircraft so they can fly the next morning.
Clean up, pack up tools and equipment.

And that's just to start.
If it snows, expect an extra 2-3 hours de-icing planes
During summer you may have to come in over one weekend to open/close canopies (morning/night) so they don't overheat.
There is also the occasional weekend flights you have to man or you may have to help with airshow prep
There's also hangar cleanup, jets to lube and wash, paperwork, maintain fitness levels and more.

If deployed to the gulf it's 12 hour shifts 6 days a week, possibly while living in a tent.
During a training exercise, you work 12 hour shifts, around the clock often in full chem gear doing all the above, plus a 1 hour shift turnover, basically 14 hour days. Heat be damned.
If doing Red Flag in Las Vegas, day shift may be on 12 hour shifts and nights may end up doing 14-16 hour shifts to keep them flying.
Oh, and you may be away from home up to 250 days a year and every 3rd year you're going to spend an entire year in Korea (if married you cannot bring spouse).

Care to tell me when you expect us to do farming?
Don't forget that if these people screw up, someone dies, possibly many if it comes down in a populated area.

[tp4tissue]

kekeke.. well certainly not _the whole_ military.

[tp4tissue]

Covid detection doge's

Is this how doge covid becomes a thing ?

Thoughts ?