Author Topic: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking  (Read 1595 times)

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Offline Leslieann

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My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« on: Mon, 12 September 2022, 17:32:06 »
Another wall of text by Leslie.


So I finally got around to setting up my new 2.5gbit network.

TLDR
What should have been a simply upgrade turned into a 2 year project. I got 250-270MB in both directions but had to ditch Windows.


The beginning
This actually started the Black Friday before last, yes, it took nearly 2 years to do this!
Prices had finally come down on 2.5Gbit and I had found a 2.5Gbit card for SUPER CHEAP so I grabbed it, and while that fits my file server, my desktop lacks any spare slots as both are mini-ITX and the desktop has a GPU. So instead of buying another 2.5Gbit card I had to find an alternative, and frankly, I got frustrated and just gave up on it. Too little information and too many band aids to the problem were needed and it just wasn't a big deal (something you need to keep in mind with this sort of thing). The recent Internet speed thread by TP4tissue got me to go and just finish out the part I needed, but even with more time for things to settle it wasn't so simple, in fact some of it became more complicated due to time and things that have happened since.

As for a switch or router, that was easy, there would be none.
An old networking trick is you run a normal network, gigabit in this case, and then run a direct line between the two systems that need speed, in this case 2.l5Gbit between the desktop and the server. This sort of network has been around for decades and has many uses. Just setup a normal network, then on the direct link you assign an IP (different from the normal network) but no DNS or gateway. Easy, or at least it used to be.


First problem was the lack of slots in the desktop,
If you lack slots adding a card means getting creative, the good thing is these days we have better options, they're just not always good ones. The most simple is USB, but USB is going to create a bottleneck, and in some cases, it's significant. The other option is to use the wifi/Bluetooth card slot if you have one to spar (I do not), and use that slot with a mini PCIE to PCIE adapter, this seems good as it's just a PCIE slot, the bad part is that it means finding somewhere to mount the network card. These adapters are not always small but they do allow remote mounting of the network card. If you mount it externally you need a box and a way to get the fragile cable out of the case, internally I have no way to mount it securely, heck, good luck finding space for it in most mini-ITX cases. I would prefer nothing external, let alone some fragile cable connecting to an external box but at least I would get full speed. Another option is to use the second NVME slot, you can use an adapter to make it a conventional PCIE slot and then use the above pcie adapter. While it can work, the NVME slot on the back of my board would have no clearance in my case and even if I could fit it, there's again the problem of mounting the network card.

There are some other issues here to contend with as well, using the second NVME slot on most boards divides the NVME PCIE bus lane, I.E. half speed, so your NVME drive may be cut down some. Honestly, this isn't the huge cut you may think as those numbers are theoretical and even benchmarks do not reflect real world. Odds are you wouldn't notice the speed drop. I have dual drives and while I can tell once in a great while, it's pretty rare. Unfortunately that also meant no slot to spare.

As for USB there's problems here too,
While USB 3.0 will allow 5Gbit the overhead for it is 20% compared to USB 3.1 needing only 3%. When sending data to a drive it's one thing, but networking has far more overhead, so that 20% becomes more like      35%. In real world terms this means:

USB 2.0 is half duplex, leading to gigabit speeds, don't even bother. 
USB 3.0 with a 2.5Gbit card is going to have an average high of around 150-175MB
USB 3.1 with a 2.5Gbit card is going to have an average high of around 220-250MB.

Then there's power, these are extremely power hungry and not all ports, especially type-A can power them well enough for stability. You may need a hub (especially on type-A) and if you do, you should be aware it may make the hub useless for anything else under heavy transfer due to bandwidth constraints.

A note about 5Gbit over USB
While you can go 5Gbit it costs more and there's fewer options but with a peak of only around 3.5Gbit you're getting diminishing returns on it and unless you're running raid or SSDs with a powerful processor at both ends you will struggle to flood that anyhow. An Atom, Celeron or 2nd Gen I5 probably won't cut it. The 5Gbit adapters are even more prone to overheating than the 2.5Gbit, which are known to do so on occasion (you want a Realtek chip) and power is an even bigger problem. My advice, if you're going to spend the money on 5gbit, skip USB, 2.5Gbit and 5Gbit and just go buy used enterprise 10Gbit cards, it's going to cost the same more or less, offer more options and be more future proof.

In the end I went with a Type C 2.5Gbit Realtek based adapter.


Finally, I can set this up!
So like I said, there was to be no switch or hub, just a direct line bypassing my main network. While a switch makes it plug and play they're not cheap, in fact during the Black Friday sale when I got my card they tended to sell for around $140-170 for a 4 port, which is just insane, you could get a used 10Gbit switch for not much more, though it would be power hungry and loud. Also, before you buy any 10Gbit switch, make sure they support 2.5Gbit, I'm not sure they all do, and if not those that do are likely newer and going to be more expensive. Luckily, you can now find 8 port 2.5Gbit switches for around $100 but I only needed to connect two systems and I knew a way around that. Or so I thought, imagine the theme from Jaws playing here because sh*ts about to go down.

The server...
This should be simple, you set a static IP, no dns or gateway on both ends, reference the share based on the IP and it simply works. Done it many times. Easy right? Well it used to be. I popped the numbers in Linux and it was ready. Windows, not so much... Win10 didn't like setting a standard subnet mask, turns out, depending on who you ask, MS either screwed up netmask or switched to an enterprise method (use 24 instead of 255.255.255.0). Fine, whatever once I figured that out, easy right? Nope, Win10 now refuses to take a static IP address. MS decided we no longer needed it and apparently deprecated it. This explains why last time I was trying to set a static IP I gave up and just added it to the router. I never bothered to look into why it failed, I just worked around it and moved on.  Seriously MS, wtf.

So at this point my options are buy a switch/router, roll back to Win 7 or 8 or move to some form of Unix (BSD) or, Linux.
Win7 software is becoming an issue, forget drivers, have you tried installing Direct X, Dot Net or any of the other requirements by hand lately, it's kind of a mess. Things may last forever online but the bility to find it and working links do not. Win8 is simply dead, GPU companies (and more) have actually abandoned it entirely. So you may find a network driver for Windows 8 but no GPU driver and you may find a GPU driver for Win7 bit no network driver, and good luck with the rest. It's doable, just not practical anymore and getting more difficult by the day and if I'm going that far, why not just go all the way.

I've been wanting to ditch Windows on my server anyhow but boy howdy is that a lot of work but I also like a challenge. I've used several NAS and file server software in the past, they all had one or two things I disliked. Three things I wanted if I was switching was Virtual Machine hosting, that would be nice, however the last NAS software I tried and liked had deprecated that in favor of containers (good job!), containers are great, but you can't run a Windows container on Linux. Another issue is my cloud storage, I use Mega and Google, Google promised a Linux client since debut but never delivered. There are replacement clients, but the best one, while not free it's not expensive, but wow is their sales team aggressive and I refuse to support companies like that. It took 2 years for them to stop messaging me after a trial. I don't care how good it is, you aren't getting my money. The last thing was remote access, I have long used Teamviewer for this but I was willing to deal with that later as there's more options there and it was less important.

I ended up with Truenas, which actually works better than I expected. I'd prefer something Linux based (BSD Unix vs Linux) but this runs well and surprisingly supported the 2.5Gbit card out of the box which was a concern as BSD is not great at hardware support. It supports remote Virtual Machine hosting and a lot more. The last issue was Google drive but at this point I was angry enough with MS I was willing to ditch Google Drive if it meant getting rid of them. While looking into setting up Mega I found Truenas actually supports almost all cloud storage right out of the box, maybe not as smooth, it has to run on a schedule not on file change, but that's much better than I expected.


So we're up!
Almost. Sending to the server was (really) fast but receiving was gigabit speed, considering the server has a spinner and the desktop has the NVME SSD it should be the other way around. Odd. Resources were high and ping was also astronomical but I attributed some of that to it being USB.

I was feeding my USB backup drive into my desktop then through the USB 2.5 to the server, so I figured maybe it was flooding out the USB. Watching the data rates seemed to confirm this as it was reading then sending, reading then sending, not a constant flow. Different cable? Nope. Maybe it needed Thunderbolt enabled in bios, nope.  In my digging I did find it was in half duplex mode which explains the cyclical read/send, older USB was half duplex but this was 3.1 with full duplex, this was what led me to find that there's two drivers for 2.5Gbit and one (the default) is not so good, especially for the Realtek based ones. Like most things I.T. there's an easy fix, once you find it.


Finally!
Pings were now actually better than the network (there's no switch), transfers are now averaging peaking at around 250MB (Bytes not bits!), with some managed to hit 270MB. A 3.5GB file sends in about 14 seconds compared to 45 seconds, a massive bump in speed. As for CPU overhead, a concern for me, I'm shocked, it's actually on par with the built in gigabit. I can't express how impressed I am for such a cheap no name adapter.



Was it worth it?  Is it worth it?
Yes and no. I only spent $40 on this whole project so it was cheap, but what I saved in money it cost me in time. I had to redo my server, ditch Windows and that meant backing up and reinstalling everything. All told I spent days researching this when it really should have been a drop in had I just used a switch. I also spent an entire weekend switching out my server software. I didn't mind ditching Windows on it, I had been wanting to be rid of that for a while and the time spent researching USB network adapters had to happen anyhow. Plus, I like to experiment so it wasn't a waste. Note that I do eventually intend to get a 2.5gbit switch, just not right now.

But was the faster speeds worth it?
Well I doubled my network speed, I can even run networked drives as if they are installed in my desktop and while I do a lot over my network 99.99% the time this upgrade is completely useless and that's why it took so long and why I refused to spend a lot. It really has almost zero impact in my life or computing and I'm the person it's geared towards. It's nice, I'd totally do it again but I wouldn't run out and buy a bunch of new networking gear to accomplish it.


Parts for those curious:
Random cat5e cable, Cat5e is rated for 100meters @ 2.5gbit.
Inateck 2.5G USB model ET1001, about $18 on Amazon. These known to have the Realtek chip and not overheat.
2.5Gbit Rosewill RC-20001 PCIE card, $20 at the time, currently sold out. Expect to pay $40-$60 for similar today.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 12 September 2022, 17:44:23 »
dongles overheating was a big surprise to me.

My disp-port to hdmi dongle overheated and there's a little burnt hole in it when i cut it open.

we need faster drives too. they draw down to ~90 - 120MB/s near the end

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 19 September 2022, 05:03:59 »
More speed and no windows sounds like a great result all round.  Thanks for the write up :thumb:
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Offline TacticalCoder

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 20 September 2022, 08:52:09 »
Thanks for the write up!

I considered 10 Gbit/s once I started stuffing my computers with fast NVMe PCIe 3.0 x4 SSDs but then chickened out.

These USB-C to 2.5 GBit/s adapters are indeed interesting: they're not pricey and moreover nowadays there are quite a few mobos that comes with a 2.5 GBit/s adapter.

There's a 5 ports, cheap/consumer grade, 2.5 GBit/s switch that looks interesting: QNAP QSW-1105-5T.  Don't know if it's good but it's 2.5 GBit/s and the price looks right ($100 USD / 115 EUR).

But yeah it's a bit sad to have NVMe PCIe 3.0 x4 SSDs (and more) on your machines capable of easily saturating 10 GBit/s and yet being still stuck at 1 GB/s by our home network.

It's really weird that 15 or maybe even 20 years ago I had gigabit ethernet at home. Since then Internet connection speed went tremendously up, RAM got beefier and much faster and CPUs aren't even comparable. But most of us are still stuck on gigabit ethernet.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 20 September 2022, 14:01:55 »
You're welcome.


But yeah it's a bit sad to have NVMe PCIe 3.0 x4 SSDs (and more) on your machines capable of easily saturating 10 GBit/s and yet being still stuck at 1 GB/s by our home network.

It's really weird that 15 or maybe even 20 years ago I had gigabit ethernet at home. Since then Internet connection speed went tremendously up, RAM got beefier and much faster and CPUs aren't even comparable. But most of us are still stuck on gigabit ethernet.
Consumer-wise we're still quite a ways from really being able to use everything a 10Gbit or 4x NVME server can throw at us as an individual. That sort of bandwidth is really only good for one or two very specific use cases and really only needed when used by multiple systems.

But... With gigabit to the home, 5g, wifi speeds ramping up and home networks becoming common it is useful as a whole and that shows just shows how badly they dropped the ball. Sadly, I think it was on purpose in order to keep enterprise 10gbit prices high and even now the only reason we even got 2.5 and 5Gbit is because home/small office ethernet is/was on the verge of being obsolete thanks to wifi and since they couldn't let home 10gbit eat into enterprise 10gbit sales we got a new standard that fell in between. Unfortunately this also means it's doomed to fail long term since wifi will (at least if you believe the box art) catch up very soon once again and they will then be forced to drop home 10gbit anyhow.

Sadly, no, Apple's 10gbit doesn't count, neither does the few 10Gbit motherboards, what we need is a consumer grade card and router/switch combo and at a reasonable price and for now at least it's not that they can't do it, they just don't want to.

I'd love to see what they markup is on 10Gbit networking gear, has to be insane for them to create a whole new spec just to avoid eating into it.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 20 September 2022, 16:45:09 »
wifi is pretty much at its limit unless you want to put in significantly more antennas at both end, 16-32 on the router, 8-16 on a desktop card, and really juice people with dat microwave.

even wifi 6's (ax) real effective transmission  is actually only 3db better than wifi 5 (ac).  which means given the same amount of walls in the way, you're only looking at 10-15% better throughput.  the benchmark is misleading because they're doing same room, with larger bit-depth (QAM) essentially, but it's impossible to achieve those through walls or even while moving very fast.

wifi won't get much faster than this because you run into power use barriers, it wouldn't make sense to have mobile devices go any faster, as the transmission would eat so much battery.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 21 September 2022, 10:15:55 »
wifi is pretty much at its limit unless you want to put in significantly more antennas at both end, 16-32 on the router, 8-16 on a desktop card, and really juice people with dat microwave.

Which is exactly what they're going to do, but they will ignore the desktop and laptop end, because you know... Marketing.

Netgear is doing exactly that right now with a 12 stream "12.8Gbps" router that can barely break gigabit speeds.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 21 September 2022, 11:46:01 »
without a client with 12 antennas, the extra antennas won't deliver higher throughput via streams, it may deliver slightly higher throughput by beamforming, but this has very narrow limits, it's in the + 10-20% range.

Offline yui

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 21 September 2022, 12:58:15 »
good to know all that, i never expected windows to drop such an important feature as static IP. and i am having enough trouble with GbE right now that i am not really ready to upgrade :) (idk why a lot of my network does not want to run above FE speeds, while supporting GbE, well on copper, fibers do work as expected).
I thought that 2.5GbE was not a real standard, and that it was a pain to get working properly because of it, i guess i was wrong, or outdated.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 21 September 2022, 13:04:43 »
you need good cables or it will not do gbe at a distance.

Offline yui

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 21 September 2022, 13:26:39 »
from the switch to the back of the servers, about 40 cm :) and out of 4 ports, one is GbE, 2 FE and one does not even come up, i feel i have done something wrong but i can't seem to find what.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 21 September 2022, 22:29:31 »
without a client with 12 antennas, the extra antennas won't deliver higher throughput via streams, it may deliver slightly higher throughput by beamforming, but this has very narrow limits, it's in the + 10-20% range.
They don't care.

As long as it theoretically can do it, they will sell it as such, like I said, Netgear has a 7.8Gbit on sale right now. Absolutely false advertising.

"Unleash ultra-fast 7.8Gbps* speeds"
https://www.netgear.com/home/wifi/routers/raxe300/
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 September 2022, 22:32:12 by Leslieann »
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 21 September 2022, 22:31:16 »
from the switch to the back of the servers, about 40 cm :) and out of 4 ports, one is GbE, 2 FE and one does not even come up, i feel i have done something wrong but i can't seem to find what.
Is this a managed switch?
Is this the rated speed or just the speed you seem to be getting?
Otherwise, I'd be checking drivers and cables.

One thing you also may need to do is check the actual devices themselves as well. Toshiba was selling a laptop with Gbit specs but was actually only a 10/100 card, and this was only a few years ago. 5th or 6th gen Core I5 I found it on, and they were not alone. I was pulling my hair out trying to figure this one out for a while before finding other complaints and then looking up the chip number. Unfortunately the client was well past the return window when I figured it out.

I've also had cards that could only run at peak speeds with a specific OS and driver and there is even faster cards that need a (rather expensive) software license to reach peak speeds.
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Offline yui

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 26 September 2022, 00:09:50 »
it is a managed switch, an hp 4200VL, and it is definitely the cables, i tested them all with the same hp laptop, and made them all with the same crimping tool out of cat6 wire but yet only one of the run is full speed...
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: My adventures in 2.5Gbit networking
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 26 September 2022, 08:07:00 »

it is definitely the cables,


Whenever I hear the word "cables" I wonder whether it is actually the sockets - they seem to be at least as likely to be damaged.
Neoreactionarism is a pseudo-intellectual fascist movement that Musk and Peter Thiel have embraced.  One ideological plank to neoreactionarism is that the "liberal” media is in cahoots with — wait for it — American intelligence agencies and other political establishments to thwart the rule of the enlightened technocrat.  It is only the rise of a superior technocratic class who will crush the establishment and their middle managers and bring about true freedom to human beings.  And it looks like Musk is trying to bring about this political Nirvana at Twitter.
- Merlin1963 2022-11-19