Author Topic: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again  (Read 22716 times)

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Offline sandywind

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Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 08:34:13 »
Sorry to ask a likely old question again.

An MD group buy ships in late summer, a long time from now. Looking elsewhere, Ergodox EZ appears to be a reasonable alternative. There are obvious differences, like LCD, tenting, and different choices of switches. Besides such differences, how do they compare technically, that is, electronically and in firmware? Maybe other manufacturers offer even even better alternatives in reasonable time?
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Offline algernon

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 09:00:07 »
Can't comment about the Infinity, but the tenting kit, manufacturer warranty, and being pre-assembled made the EZ an easy choice for me. The firmware is great, especially if you don't mind going down to the C level. I found it much easier to work with QMK, than with other firmware. But again, I only had a very brief stint with the Infinity firmware.

My EZ shipped in a few weeks, 3 or 4 or so? No assembly required, I could plug it in and use it. So far, it is looking to be the best computer-related purchase I made to this day, highly recommended.

If you want the LCD, or switches the EZ does not offer, and you're ok with assembling it yourself, you can't go wrong with the Infinity either.

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 09:29:21 »
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82113

There was a lot of good information there.

Offline sandywind

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 13:41:41 »
Thank you to both for your comments.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82113

There was a lot of good information there.
I read most of that thread, I'll read it again more carefully.

Can't comment about the Infinity, but the tenting kit, manufacturer warranty, and being pre-assembled made the EZ an easy choice for me. The firmware is great, especially if you don't mind going down to the C level. I found it much easier to work with QMK, than with other firmware. But again, I only had a very brief stint with the Infinity firmware.
I would surely enjoy an firmware that's easy to work with.

The out-of-the-box configuration has a layer toggle in both halves and according to the firmware page, it switches to the coder layer with square brackets in the left hand half. I guess it can be activated by the Tmp Coder Layer as well, but without toggling, is that right? That would be more useful for a programmer.
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Offline algernon

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 14:18:57 »
Can't comment about the Infinity, but the tenting kit, manufacturer warranty, and being pre-assembled made the EZ an easy choice for me. The firmware is great, especially if you don't mind going down to the C level. I found it much easier to work with QMK, than with other firmware. But again, I only had a very brief stint with the Infinity firmware.
I would surely enjoy an firmware that's easy to work with.

The out-of-the-box configuration has a layer toggle in both halves and according to the firmware page, it switches to the coder layer with square brackets in the left hand half. I guess it can be activated by the Tmp Coder Layer as well, but without toggling, is that right? That would be more useful for a programmer.

No clue how the default layout works, I used it for about 2 minutes, until I flashed my own. By reading the source, and the docs, it seems that your description is correct.

I prefer my own layout, where I don't have to switch layers to gain access to the most used symbols. (And I hate holding keys for chords, so all my modifiers are one-shot by default, double-tap for toggle).

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 14:44:45 »
Thank you to both for your comments.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82113

There was a lot of good information there.
I read most of that thread, I'll read it again more carefully.

The quotes from lekashman :

Disclosure: I am a member of Input Club and helped develop the Infinity ErgoDox.

There are quite a few additional benefits to the Infinity ErgoDox that weren't mentioned here that I felt ought to be listed.

All the design files for the Infinity ErgoDox are open source and available for people to build and modify on their own. This has allowed companies like Datamancer to make custom wooden cases for it - https://www.massdrop.com/buy/datamancer-infinity-ergodox-hardwood-case

We anticipate more people will develop aftermarket add-ons for it, since it is quickly becoming the top performing ErgoDox variant.

Also, we have an online configurator here that we worked with matteo to develop https://input.club/configurator-ergodox

This runs on the KLL firmware developed by HaaTa and allows for incredibly fancy things like N-Key Rollover, Daisy-chaining or use of a single keyboard half, and advanced macros.

We also worked with Hasu to support TMK as well, since this is a very popular keyboard firmware.

The major advantage however is that it is an active development project that has people all over the world contributing and improving upon the firmware. To learn more, check out our site here - https://input.club/devices/infinity-ergodox

I'd say the only major disadvantage to the Infinity ErgoDox is that it isn't available year round, since we operate on a no-inventory basis through our collaboration with Massdrop. Since the group buy is currently open however, that isn't an issue for anyone wanting to join the buy right now.

Not all manufacturers of the Ergodox release all their files KRKS. We are the only people that currently administer a popular version to release every part.

The original Ergodox did not have N-Key Rollover, and also had lag between the two halves. Media keys were a constant request and the online configurator hadn't been updated since 2013.

We also added dual Matias / Cherry compatibility, the LCD screen, and made each half an independent keyboard, and added an LED controller for aftermarket modders, all features completely unlike the original Ergodox.

These improvements were all added without any increase in the price, so we have presented you no reason not to just use them?

With that, you might be able to compare yourself looking at the EZ was my thought.

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 14:55:06 »
Acrylic Case vs. Injection molded ABS. I've yet to see a PVC or ABS case for the Infinity, although there is a wooden case so I guess that counts for something.

What I want to know is whether the Ergodox EZ suffers from the same TRRS delay as the original Ergodox. algernon, have you noticed any delay between the two halves of your Ergodox EZ?

The Infinity does not use a TRRS cable and there are no reports of a delay AFAIK

Offline algernon

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 15:09:10 »
What I want to know is whether the Ergodox EZ suffers from the same TRRS delay as the original Ergodox. algernon, have you noticed any delay between the two halves of your Ergodox EZ?

No, I have not noticed any delay, and I've been keeping an eye on it, too. So I suppose that's fixed. How big a delay are we talking about, though? I'll conduct some tests tomorrow at work, to be sure.

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 15:16:11 »
I had never seen any reports of this "TRRS delay" before ErgoDox Infinity showed up—and note that I read nearly all ErgoDox-related posts in 2012-2014 here and at DT (and Reddit to a certain extent)—and I've certainly never experienced it myself.

Reliability of TRRS connectors/cables? Absolutely. Lag? Nope.

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 15:25:48 »
What I want to know is whether the Ergodox EZ suffers from the same TRRS delay as the original Ergodox. algernon, have you noticed any delay between the two halves of your Ergodox EZ?

No, I have not noticed any delay, and I've been keeping an eye on it, too. So I suppose that's fixed. How big a delay are we talking about, though? I'll conduct some tests tomorrow at work, to be sure.

Hmmm, from what I've read it was a polling rate issue that some people experienced. 

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 17:57:44 »
I would get the Ez..  just for the assembly.. 

As much I Like diy,   there's no point if the factory does it better..

Offline KRKS

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 02:54:17 »
*definitely not blatant advertising, no, not at all*

How bout you link the posts from that thread in which those arguments are debunked? Oh wait, you're a shill, you won't.
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Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 06:46:41 »
*definitely not blatant advertising, no, not at all*

How bout you link the posts from that thread in which those arguments are debunked? Oh wait, you're a shill, you won't.
How about you do it? You and others seem to have an agenda against the infinity,  and that's cool,  and seem to have antagonistic feelings towards them,  and that's cool too.  But I personally found your arguments weak and just rude in many cases, with no unbiased substance to back it up.   And he didn't hide his affiliation with the company,  and it was a vendor on the site answering a question,  which IMO makes it not blatant advertising as you say,  but a vendor talking about his product,  which many do. So leave me out of your crusade,  mkay?  And definitely stop namecalling towards me with your unsubstantiated bias.   I just saw that thread,  decided to go with the infinity,  and wanted to give him the info. And at first I linked just the thread,  then included the quotes to be nice. And your bias is really telling when you have to edit the quote
« Last Edit: Thu, 26 May 2016, 06:50:48 by chuckdee »

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 07:39:44 »
I just saw that thread,  decided to go with the infinity,  …
So, you're here to defend your purchase? How is that not bias?

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 08:58:38 »
I just saw that thread,  decided to go with the infinity,  …
So, you're here to defend your purchase? How is that not bias?

Where did you get defend?  I was giving him information.  I wasn't defending anything.  Quit reaching.  And with that, unless you have something constructive to say, I'm done.  As I was already done after giving him the link, then the information on what was directly said by the vendor.  I just don't care that much to even try to hold an irrational conversation over imagined points.  Especially when being attacked for quoting another post.
« Last Edit: Thu, 26 May 2016, 09:01:11 by chuckdee »

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 09:15:19 »
Why do you quote misinformation then?

Offline Questengine

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 12:35:06 »
I ordered a keycapless ergodox from Fengsbay on Ebay.  There's one thread on here about him/her/it somewhere on these boards if you want to search for it. Free shipping, $200, no assembly required is a pretty good deal.  I ordered it on saturday  May 15 and I haven't got it yet, but it's still well within the shipping window, so I'm not worried yet.   I'll post again when I get it and let you know what I think.

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 14:38:30 »
I ordered a keycapless ergodox from Fengsbay on Ebay.  There's one thread on here about him/her/it somewhere on these boards if you want to search for it. Free shipping, $200, no assembly required is a pretty good deal.  I ordered it on saturday  May 15 and I haven't got it yet, but it's still well within the shipping window, so I'm not worried yet.   I'll post again when I get it and let you know what I think.

Oh cool, injection molded ABS case?

I had never seen any reports of this "TRRS delay" before ErgoDox Infinity showed up—and note that I read nearly all ErgoDox-related posts in 2012-2014 here and at DT (and Reddit to a certain extent)—and I've certainly never experienced it myself.

Reliability of TRRS connectors/cables? Absolutely. Lag? Nope.

I should have read into the reported delay a bit more. I saw a few random reports of it on reddit but I didn't think much of it until I read Livingspeedbump's review of the Infinty (he mentioned a delay in the old Ergodox). From what I could understand it had to do with the rolling rate of the I\O expander or something related to that side of the two halves. I'll link the Geekhack thread that touched on the issue along with a quote from Haata's reply in the Massdrop Infinity thread.

Ergodox latency - February 19, 2016, 10:26:10 PM

Massdrop Infinity Thread

Quote
So, I don't have a true measurement for you, but I can give you some of the numbers, and try to give you the sorta range it functions at.
The interconnect bus is a UART with dedicated Rx/Tx. This means it supports asynchronous interrupts for keypresses (with this, it's already faster than the I2C of the older ergodox even if it was clocked slower).
But, I decided to see how far I could push this bus...
Turns out that I was able to set the bus to max speed (though I haven't tried overclocking this MCU, which has been reported to go all the way up to 168 MHz stable, currently running at the stock 72 MHz). I was able to reliably set (haven't seen any errors) to 4.5 megabaud!
To put into perspective, a typical serial port runs at 115200 baud, which is effectively 11520 bytes/second. This means that the effective data rate is around 450 kB/sec.
Now, that really doesn't sound that impressive in the age of 10G (~1.25 GB/s) USB 3.1. But, there's a fundamental difference here.
UARTs clock each bit, meaning theoretically you can have an interrupt at each pulse. But let's give some overhead and say we have a poll rate of 4 bytes (this is the smallest command size for a single keypress). And that it takes ~10 symbols to transmit a byte. Then with a little bit of math:
4 500 000 baud / (4 bytes * 10 symbols) = 112 500 Hz (112.5 kHz assuming an impossibly saturated bus)
or 1 interrupt every 0.000 0088 seconds (88 us).
If we just want to compare the start point (just like how 1000 Hz USB does it). Then I guess a marketing comparison would be:
USB 2.0 - 1000 Hz
Infinity Ergodox Interconnect - 4 500 000 Hz
And this ladies and gentleman, is how split keyboards can be used for gaming :D

Sorry for the wall of text. I'll be sure to be more thorough in the future before I mention reported problems with custom built keyboards.

Offline sandywind

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 06:28:23 »
Thank you to all of you for your comments and reports.

Concerning the delay problem, can we say that the current implementation of the EZ version is not affected? algernon did you notice any delay in you latest tests?
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Offline algernon

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 06:38:20 »
Thank you to all of you for your comments and reports.

Concerning the delay problem, can we say that the current implementation of the EZ version is not affected? algernon did you notice any delay in you latest tests?

Nope, no delays here.

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 07:39:43 »
Why do you quote misinformation then?
You're random person on the Internet to me. He's involved in the project. And you didn't discredit his post- to the contrary,  sour post seems like childish railing.  If you want to discredit,  show your credentials or link to something that's concrete.   And quit attacking the messenger,  and instead attack the message. Because it literally doesn't matter to me- the argument nor what you think.

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 08:29:33 »
Why do you quote misinformation then?
You're random person on the Internet to me. He's involved in the project.
Yeah, because a sales guy totally isn't biased. /s

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 10:06:43 »
Why do you quote misinformation then?
You're random person on the Internet to me. He's involved in the project.
Yeah, because a sales guy totally isn't biased. /s

Quippy responses is also totally not discrediting.  Just saying.  Post some meat, instead of these supposedly witty comebacks.

I'd be totally interested if you did, by the way.  I like facts.  It helps me make better decisions.

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 13:45:38 »
Thank you to all of you for your comments and reports.

Concerning the delay problem, can we say that the current implementation of the EZ version is not affected? algernon did you notice any delay in you latest tests?

Nope, no delays here.

*rubs hands together gif*

Awesome, this is good to know

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 15:42:52 »
I'd be totally interested if you did, by the way.  I like facts.  It helps me make better decisions.
I made a list of pros/cons in that thread. It was the 2nd/3rd reply there.

Let's think about the Massdrop's marketing (and only the stuff, that isn't completely out of water to begin with) though.

Take the claim, that Infinity has all these extra features for the same price—that's a steal, right? Actually, not so fast.
It has a different PCB design (some people dislike it, YMMV) and surface-mount parts all over the place. It still might be open-source, but it's more difficult to make at home; it appears to be optimized for factory production.
The same-price arguments stinks. It smells Razer to me. The important part is what cost how much. You can keep something at "the same price"… by making cuts in quality, for example. Massdrop's ErgoDox [Infinity] has had quality problems for sure: specifically, mechanically poor-quality interconnection was reported after a last years drop. I've previously had problems with their cases too.

And what are those extra features?
Screens. That doesn't make much sense to me. We're talking about an ergonomic keyboard designed for touch typing, so that you don't have to look at it… but a screen is only useful, when you do look at it. Meanwhile, one drop was significantly delayed, because the relevant parts weren't available. It also severely affects backward compatibility with ErgoDox cases (although Idk if they would be easier to use otherwise). Just keep it simple!
Ditto for backlight. As someone has pointed out, primates including humans sure do love shiny objects. That doesn't mean it's practical.
Matias support. I've seen original ErgoDoxen with Matias switches too; it needs a little bit of extra work, but it's doable. Thus, we're talking about only a tiny advantage.
Firmware with NKRO, media keys, GUI keymap designer etc. That's complete nonsense—they're not unique to Infinity. Massdrop had designed a webUI, that generated source/hex files for a relatively early version of Ben's firmware back in 2013, but they stopped supporting it (and it's mostly broken now). That version of Ben's firmware indeed didn't support media keys properly and was limited to 6KRO. However, Ben added/corrected both features as well as others later—without any reaction by Massdrop. Then a TMK port came around, now there's QMK (a TMK fork) as well… and I've seen someone make a GUI for that. I don't have any experience with it though.

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 16:14:13 »
You made a list.  But you didn't link to any references.  And again, you're a random guy on the internet.  Verifiable facts, please. And leave opinions out of your argument.  It doesn't make sense has no place in an argument where someone is asking for facts.

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 16:30:39 »
You made a list.  But you didn't link to any references.
Wrong. I linked Deskthority Awards.

If you want to learn more about the ErgoDox, here's the Geekhack thread, its continuation at Deskthority is linked there.

And leave opinions out of your argument.  It doesn't make sense has no place in an argument where someone is asking for facts.
What you don't understand on following simple facts?

ErgoDox is designed for touch typing, i.e., typing without looking.
A screen is a visual output device, that requires looking to be useful.

Offline phoible

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 16:37:14 »
Davkol - no matter what argument anyone gives you, you can probably think up some "reason" why it doesn't apply. It's obvious that you own an original Ergodox and are fond of it. I'm sure it's a great keyboard. In reality, the Infinity is a more advanced design with more features (disclosure - I have an Infinity with Matias Switches). If you don't need the additional features, that's great. You already have a keyboard that works for you. For those that don't have an Ergodox, the Infinity is probably a good option.

The same-price arguments stinks. It smells Razer to me. The important part is what cost how much. You can keep something at "the same price"… by making cuts in quality, for example. Massdrop's ErgoDox [Infinity] has had quality problems for sure: specifically, mechanically poor-quality interconnection was reported after a last years drop. I've previously had problems with their cases too.
There is a big difference between having production issues and deliberately cutting quality to save on cost. There is no evidence that the USB port issues had anything to do with cutting costs. MD replaced the PCB of anyone who had issues, and the problems seem to have been isolated to the first batch. The price didn't go up for the second batch, which didn't have the issues. The first batch was delayed significantly because of production issues, but the second batch was quite on time, and I'm going to guess that batch 3 will be on-time as well.

It appears that the lower cost of the Ergodox Infinity was due to MD producing a much larger order of preassembled boards. They were able to offer a wide range of switches and standardize everything else, saving on cost.

And what are those extra features?
Screens. That doesn't make much sense to me. We're talking about an ergonomic keyboard designed for touch typing, so that you don't have to look at it… but a screen is only useful, when you do look at it. Meanwhile, one drop was significantly delayed, because the relevant parts weren't available. It also severely affects backward compatibility with ErgoDox cases (although Idk if they would be easier to use otherwise). Just keep it simple!
Ditto for backlight. As someone has pointed out, primates including humans sure do love shiny objects. That doesn't mean it's practical.
I like the screen. It makes it easy to tell what layer I'm on. With that said, it's not required, but I'll take it at the same price.

Same thing for LED support. I don't use LEDs on any of my keyboards, and I run Matias Switches on my Ergodox Infinity, so there aren't any shine-through keycaps available, but I know that a lot of people like them, and there doesn't appear to be a cost associated.

Matias support. I've seen original ErgoDoxen with Matias switches too; it needs a little bit of extra work, but it's doable. Thus, we're talking about only a tiny advantage.
A big advantage for anyone who wants it to work out of the box without any modification. The nice thing about the Infinity is that it supports both Matias and Cherry/Gaterons right out of the box. You just order it from MD and you get a kit that works as-is. I still have a half-finished ALPS64 project laying around because I don't have a compatible plate.

Furthermore, the Infinity requires significantly less assembly to get it working than the classic ergodox. You just solder in the switches, assemble the case, put on the keycaps, and you're done.

Ergodox EZ is great for people who want a preassembled Ergodox, with the disadvantage that it only comes with a limited selection of switches (common Gaterons). The injection molded case seems nice, and the tenting option is killer.

If you want to modify it significantly (80-key etc...), you might want to use the legacy Ergodox design and order piecemeal.

Firmware with NKRO, media keys, GUI keymap designer etc. That's complete nonsense—they're not unique to Infinity. Massdrop had designed a webUI, that generated source/hex files for a relatively early version of Ben's firmware back in 2013, but they stopped supporting it (and it's mostly broken now). That version of Ben's firmware indeed didn't support media keys properly and was limited to 6KRO. However, Ben added/corrected both features as well as others later—without any reaction by Massdrop. Then a TMK port came around, now there's QMK (a TMK fork) as well… and I've seen someone make a GUI for that. I don't have any experience with it though.
None of these things work out of the box on the original Ergodox - you have to hack to get them working. I've used the web configurator on Input Club's website, and it's super easy to use. Once I had everything working, I built my own firmware (so I could get a custom LCD Image), but I still use the keymaps I built with the configurator.

In short
- If you want something with no assembly required and a warranty (and a cool case/tenting kit), get the EZ.
- If you want something that's easily configurable, has some extra features (which may be useful to you), and supports a good number of switch options out of the box, get the Infinity
- If you want to modify everything, build an Ergodox from parts.

I know that a lot of people on here have issues with MD, but I've ordered a number of things from them, and haven't had any problems. A few drops have shipped a late, but that's just a consequence of ordering custom-made stuff. If you don't want delays or production issues, wait for the second drop when the kinks have been worked out.

Offline algernon

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 16:43:43 »
You made a list.  But you didn't link to any references.  And again, you're a random guy on the internet.  Verifiable facts, please. And leave opinions out of your argument.  It doesn't make sense has no place in an argument where someone is asking for facts.

There were plenty of facts in that post, too. NKRO is supported by pretty much every firmware, not just infinity's. My ErgoDox EZ with QMK does so, by default, as it comes out the factory. That's a fact, and that makes the "it supports NKRO!" feature... not so moch a feature. Every firmware does. Are we going to list "you can press keys on it" as a feature too? You can check the QMK sources, if you wish to verify. But I assure you, the EZ's default firmware (QMK), does have NKRO. I'm using it daily, every morning I practice Plover.

Due to the screens, the case is not compatible with other, standard ErgoDox cases, which, for some, may be a disadvantage bigger than the advantage of having a screen. Fact is, having a screen is not an advantage for everyone. As for the incampatibility of the case: see this thread on /r/Mk. profet32 - who is also on here - knows his stuff. He built plenty of ErgoDoxes for various people. Definitely not a random guy.

Backlight and Matias switches can be an advantage over the EZ, but only if you want them. If you're ok with Gateron, and don't need backlight, these features are irrelevant. Not everyone will find these an advantage. (I'd find Matias as one, but not backlight, for example). Fact is, these are not universally considered advantages. You can verify this by reading this reply - as an ErgoDox user, backlight for me is useless, and undesired.

The EZ also comes assembled, which is a huge advantage of you're not into building the keyboard yourself - this alone made me choose the EZ over anything else. The other benefits of the EZ were just a bonus, and for me, the infinity would have provided only ande advantage: Matias switches. At the cost of screens, backlight, and case-incompatibility - not worth it. You can verify this advantage of the EZ by checking how many people have bought it, and how many continue buying it.

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 17:08:51 »
You made a list.  But you didn't link to any references.  And again, you're a random guy on the internet.  Verifiable facts, please. And leave opinions out of your argument.  It doesn't make sense has no place in an argument where someone is asking for facts.

There were plenty of facts in that post, too. NKRO is supported by pretty much every firmware, not just infinity's. My ErgoDox EZ with QMK does so, by default, as it comes out the factory. That's a fact, and that makes the "it supports NKRO!" feature... not so moch a feature. Every firmware does. Are we going to list "you can press keys on it" as a feature too? You can check the QMK sources, if you wish to verify. But I assure you, the EZ's default firmware (QMK), does have NKRO. I'm using it daily, every morning I practice Plover.

Due to the screens, the case is not compatible with other, standard ErgoDox cases, which, for some, may be a disadvantage bigger than the advantage of having a screen. Fact is, having a screen is not an advantage for everyone. As for the incampatibility of the case: see this thread on /r/Mk. profet32 - who is also on here - knows his stuff. He built plenty of ErgoDoxes for various people. Definitely not a random guy.

Backlight and Matias switches can be an advantage over the EZ, but only if you want them. If you're ok with Gateron, and don't need backlight, these features are irrelevant. Not everyone will find these an advantage. (I'd find Matias as one, but not backlight, for example). Fact is, these are not universally considered advantages. You can verify this by reading this reply - as an ErgoDox user, backlight for me is useless, and undesired.

The EZ also comes assembled, which is a huge advantage of you're not into building the keyboard yourself - this alone made me choose the EZ over anything else. The other benefits of the EZ were just a bonus, and for me, the infinity would have provided only ande advantage: Matias switches. At the cost of screens, backlight, and case-incompatibility - not worth it. You can verify this advantage of the EZ by checking how many people have bought it, and how many continue buying it.

Quote
Does the Infinity ErgoDox Kit have NKRO?

Yes. The Infinity ErgoDox Kit has NKRO by default.

https://input.club/knowledgebase/infinity-ergodox-faq

I definitely understand why people would shy away from the Infinity Ergodox. Too many parts to deal with, and it's new. However, I'm having a hard time figuring out why people seem to be angry regarding the existence of the Infinity Ergodox.

I'm just another guy on the internet, but the potential of the LCD screens has caught my attention. What kind of information will they be able to display with future firmware updates? Will I be able to glance down and see my system information (CPU/GPU/Mobo temp, fan speeds, etc.)? Can I avoid hardware failure without having to use up system resources to display system temperatures on my taskbar? 

Offline phoible

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 17:09:22 »
You can verify this advantage of the EZ by checking how many people have bought it, and how many continue buying it.

The EZ has 2196 total backers on IndieGogo. 3459 people bought the Infinity the last time it dropped on Massdrop. This was the third drop for the Infinity. A lot more Infinity Ergodoxes have been sold/delivered than Ergodox EZs.

Granted that the EZ is the classic Ergodox, so there are a lot of them floating around. However, the number of Infinity Ergodoxes will only increase over time.

There is already the Datamancer wooden case for the Infinity. I'm guessing that there will be other cases as well in the future.

Offline algernon

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 17:20:38 »
You can verify this advantage of the EZ by checking how many people have bought it, and how many continue buying it.

The EZ has 2196 total backers on IndieGogo. 3459 people bought the Infinity the last time it dropped on Massdrop. This was the third drop for the Infinity. A lot more Infinity Ergodoxes have been sold/delivered than Ergodox EZs.

+ The people who bought it outside of IGG. My point was - if the Infinity is so much superior, the EZ wouldn't sell so well.

Granted that the EZ is the classic Ergodox, so there are a lot of them floating around. However, the number of Infinity Ergodoxes will only increase over time.

So will the EZs. Even better, you don't have to wait for a drop - the EZ has around 4-6 weeks of turnaround, sometimes even shorter. That's almost shorter than how long a drop lasts, let alone how long it takes to ship.

I have nothing against the Infinity, I'm sure it is a great keyboard. But chuckdee's comments don't do it any justice. Those are what I'm reflecting on. I have no desire to attack or belittle the Infinity itself.

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 18:11:45 »
It's obvious that you own an original Ergodox and are fond of it.
I have an original ErgoDox and it's the keyboard, that sucks the least for my use case, thus far. That doesn't mean I'm fond of it in absolutes.

I only briefly mentioned the 80key layout in that other thread, and that's a major feature for me. A major feature, that isn't supported by Infinity.

There is a big difference between having production issues and deliberately cutting quality to save on cost.
Actually, not really. I explicitly used the word *example* repeatedly in my post. Idk if folks at MD constantly run into issues, fail at supervision of the manufacturing, or cut costs, but their track record is questionable.

I like the screen. It makes it easy to tell what layer I'm on. With that said, it's not required, but I'll take it at the same price.
It makes it easy, if you look at a keyboard, that is designed so that you don't have to look at it.

I *would* hesitantly support an attempt to extend the protocol to display this information on the host computer. Hesitantly, because it's a ton of work and a source of potential issues with untested platforms. Or, for that matter, allow the firmware to reliably send Unicode.

A big advantage for anyone who wants it to work out of the box without any modification. The nice thing about the Infinity is that it supports both Matias and Cherry/Gaterons right out of the box.
The only "work" on the traditional ErgoDox is a bit off-center positioning and, in the worst case, a drop of glue. If anyone wants to go through the hassle of getting Alps-mount keycaps… (Don't get me started on DSA.)

Furthermore, the Infinity requires significantly less assembly to get it working than the classic ergodox. You just solder in the switches, assemble the case, put on the keycaps, and you're done.

Ergodox EZ is great for people who want a preassembled Ergodox, with the disadvantage that it only comes with a limited selection of switches (common Gaterons). The injection molded case seems nice, and the tenting option is killer.
EZ and at least one other vendor provide a finished product with a much more convenient case.
At least a couple of people provide professional assembly (e.g., FalbaTech).

OTOH Infinity is much harder to make from scratch. So much for open-source. I mean, Google or Oracle ship some open-source stuff too, but…

None of these things work out of the box on the original Ergodox - you have to hack to get them working.
QMK

Besides, your definition of "hack" reminds of some computer-illiterate people, that have wanted me to flash their Teensy, which involved five well-documented clicks in practice.

I know that a lot of people on here have issues with MD, but I've ordered a number of things from them, and haven't had any problems. A few drops have shipped a late, but that's just a consequence of ordering custom-made stuff. If you don't want delays or production issues, wait for the second drop when the kinks have been worked out.
That's the smallest problem with Massdrop. There are much bigger problems, such as their behavior towards the community (e.g., them versus Shadovved's Gateron GB). Or international orders (e.g., customs declarations).
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 June 2016, 18:13:26 by davkol »

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 04 June 2016, 19:13:42 »
Thanks for finally having a discussion rather than just quoting points.  I do see the relative differences between the two.  And both have their positives and negatives.  But considering that I've not had any problems with MD (other than the occassional shipping being late, and their final sale notice being so... unnoticeable), and they have made the one problem that I had (other than the final sale bit) right, I like having a company with resources for drops.  Not to say that the EZ isn't.  Also, after seeing randomfrankp build it, I wanted to do one with the full hand option.  And as far as international, is it intentional?   Or a company finding it's footing while sourcing from a lot of different and custom manufacturers.  I think it's the latter.

You made a list.  But you didn't link to any references.
Wrong. I linked Deskthority Awards.

You might want to go back and look at the post that you linked to.  It's a list.  There's no link to deskthority.


If you want to learn more about the ErgoDox, here's the Geekhack thread, its continuation at Deskthority is linked there.

That's a link.  Thanks!

And leave opinions out of your argument.  It doesn't make sense has no place in an argument where someone is asking for facts.
What you don't understand on following simple facts?

ErgoDox is designed for touch typing, i.e., typing without looking.
A screen is a visual output device, that requires looking to be useful.

I didn't get it as a replacement for my keyboard.  I got it as a replacement for my G13.  As such, it's not for touch typing for me.  And by the fact that they tout the fact that you can use one hand out of the box, I'd assume I'm not the only one.  And like csmertx, I'm thus excited about the capabilities of the LCD.  See why your opinions don't matter- at least not stated like that?



You can verify this advantage of the EZ by checking how many people have bought it, and how many continue buying it.

The EZ has 2196 total backers on IndieGogo. 3459 people bought the Infinity the last time it dropped on Massdrop. This was the third drop for the Infinity. A lot more Infinity Ergodoxes have been sold/delivered than Ergodox EZs.

+ The people who bought it outside of IGG. My point was - if the Infinity is so much superior, the EZ wouldn't sell so well.

Granted that the EZ is the classic Ergodox, so there are a lot of them floating around. However, the number of Infinity Ergodoxes will only increase over time.

So will the EZs. Even better, you don't have to wait for a drop - the EZ has around 4-6 weeks of turnaround, sometimes even shorter. That's almost shorter than how long a drop lasts, let alone how long it takes to ship.

I have nothing against the Infinity, I'm sure it is a great keyboard. But chuckdee's comments don't do it any justice. Those are what I'm reflecting on. I have no desire to attack or belittle the Infinity itself.

My comments didn't do it any justice?  I didn't make any comments.  Again, I have no dogs in this race.  I was just trying to help by quoting what was said in that other thread.  Not sure why that's so hard to get.

And sales numbers alone don't indicate anything (unless they're so drastically different that one is being adversely affected and squeezed out of the market.  MD is more accessible in general, and sells a lot more variety of stock, so draws people that might not otherwise know about it (it was the first place I started to get seriously into MK).

Quote
Does the Infinity ErgoDox Kit have NKRO?

Yes. The Infinity ErgoDox Kit has NKRO by default.

https://input.club/knowledgebase/infinity-ergodox-faq

And this is the reason that I don't trust random person on the internet without references.  Apparently one of your talking points was wrong- as pointed out above.


« Last Edit: Sat, 04 June 2016, 19:17:04 by chuckdee »

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 04:20:00 »
You made a list.  But you didn't link to any references.
Wrong. I linked Deskthority Awards.
You might want to go back and look at the post that you linked to.  It's a list.  There's no link to deskthority.
That list contains a link. Why am I even bothering?

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 09:26:41 »
I'm trying to stay out of the argument because I don't understand why people are arguing and yet I'm pulled into the argument.. :blank:

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 09:27:18 »
You made a list.  But you didn't link to any references.
Wrong. I linked Deskthority Awards.
You might want to go back and look at the post that you linked to.  It's a list.  There's no link to deskthority.
That list contains a link. Why am I even bothering?
Ah,  I see.   You hid it under Mass drop.   You might make it a bit more obvious.   But I can see that you think you are the soul of wit since that's the only thing you replied to,  instead of your error. But,  whatever.   If you want to get back to just quippy comments instead of discussion,  I really don't know why you bother,  either.

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 13:06:48 »
I'm trying to stay out of the argument because I don't understand why people are arguing and yet I'm pulled into the argument.. :blank:
Sorry.   Not really trying to argue,  but was just injecting some points from another thread.  No good deed,  I guess.

Offline Questengine

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 07 June 2016, 09:28:22 »
I got my ergodox from fengsbay.  China to North Carolina in 14 business days which was the earliest day in the shipping window, so that was good.

I'm not 100% satisfied, but I'm going to keep it I think.  A few items...

Item 1:  it probably has a bootleg teensy.   On the PJRC boards, they make it quite clear that they've never made a teensy with a blue LED, which my ergodox has.  It works fine, but that's a little shady still.  Ultimately, this guy never said he was selling me a legit teensy though, he said he was selling a working Ergodox, and that he did... except for when it doesn't work!  Which brings me to item 2.

Item 2:  I think my right hand TRRS jack is bad (well, poorly soldered  anyway).  Unless I keep the cable wedged in just right, the leds on the board go into a 1/2 second alternating flash, that I'm convinced its some kind of diagnostic message for "I'm broken!" and the keys quit working.  Actually, to the best I can tell, they work while the lights are off, but not when they're on.  So the keyboard is unresponsive for half of the time, which makes it useless of course.  It's pretty easy to unwedge the cable just by normal typing.  I messaged the guy about it and he said I could send it back or try to touch up the solder myself.  I SHOULDN'T have to touch up the solder on a new product, but I also don't want to take off all my keycaps and wait 6 weeks for the round trip to china.  So I'm probably just going to let this be a learning project for myself and see if I can keep it working.

..and I guess one more thing.  The usb cable is only 3 ft.  Sucks when you buy a $200 item and the skimp on 50 cents worth of cable!  To his credit, it did come with an extra trrs cable and 2 spare mx blues (which MAY be bootlegs, I haven't looked to closely).  Its neat to finally have a mech board though, and the ergodox is a very good design for me.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Ergodox infinity vs. EZ, again
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 07 June 2016, 11:26:26 »
I got my ergodox from fengsbay.  China to North Carolina in 14 business days which was the earliest day in the shipping window, so that was good.

I'm not 100% satisfied, but I'm going to keep it I think.  A few items...

Item 1:  it probably has a bootleg teensy.   On the PJRC boards, they make it quite clear that they've never made a teensy with a blue LED, which my ergodox has.  It works fine, but that's a little shady still.  Ultimately, this guy never said he was selling me a legit teensy though, he said he was selling a working Ergodox, and that he did... except for when it doesn't work!  Which brings me to item 2.

Item 2:  I think my right hand TRRS jack is bad (well, poorly soldered  anyway).  Unless I keep the cable wedged in just right, the leds on the board go into a 1/2 second alternating flash, that I'm convinced its some kind of diagnostic message for "I'm broken!" and the keys quit working.  Actually, to the best I can tell, they work while the lights are off, but not when they're on.  So the keyboard is unresponsive for half of the time, which makes it useless of course.  It's pretty easy to unwedge the cable just by normal typing.  I messaged the guy about it and he said I could send it back or try to touch up the solder myself.  I SHOULDN'T have to touch up the solder on a new product, but I also don't want to take off all my keycaps and wait 6 weeks for the round trip to china.  So I'm probably just going to let this be a learning project for myself and see if I can keep it working.

..and I guess one more thing.  The usb cable is only 3 ft.  Sucks when you buy a $200 item and the skimp on 50 cents worth of cable!  To his credit, it did come with an extra trrs cable and 2 spare mx blues (which MAY be bootlegs, I haven't looked to closely).  Its neat to finally have a mech board though, and the ergodox is a very good design for me.

there's nothing fundamentally boootleg about the teensy.. it's not exactly rocket science.. hahahaha