Author Topic: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?  (Read 10329 times)

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Offline FRGMNT

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Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 00:33:30 »
The Ergodox has been out for a few years and the only thing holding me back from purchasing one is waiting to see if they will release a version with the thumb cluster keys positioned better. Anyone know if a split keyboard like that has come out or if there are any plans for one in the works? My wrists are painfully desiring to stop bending unnaturally, but I love typing on my HHKB.
 

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 01:04:56 »
There's the Mu-Tron..

And if you HAD TO.. you can mod a switch into that spot of the ergodox.. power drill, a little glue..

Offline LuX

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 05:23:15 »
Have you actually tried an Ergodox, or are you just assuming it's bad. I held away from buying one for years because I was convinced that I wouldn't like it, but in the end it's not as bad as I thought, quite good actually.
Good luck finding a Mu-Tron... I would suggest keyboard.io as an alternative. The physical layout looks somewhat more comfortable than the Ergodox, but I haven't actually used one so it's just an assumption.

Online algernon

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 06:36:28 »
I can hearthily recommend the Keyboardio Model 01. Its thumb arc + palm key combo is in every way superior to the ErgoDox thumb cluster.

I write this as someone who has been using an ErgoDox EZ as his daily driver for almost a year, and as someone who typed thousands (still increasing) of words on a Model 01 prototype. It's a lot better, and not just the thumb cluster.

Mind you, the ErgoDox is still a huge improvement over pretty much any non-split keyboard, even if its thumb cluster ain't perfect. So if you don't want to wait for the Model 01, the ErgoDox is still an option.

Another option is the Diverge 3, for example. There may be others, but as I'm not interested in DIY kits, I likely miss or ignore a lot of them.
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 March 2017, 06:41:10 by algernon »

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 09:34:18 »
The Diverge3 might be the alternative that most closely matches what you are asking for.
Keyboardio is not out yet.

There are a few more keyboards that are split but with regular row-oriented layout though. I think the Mistel Barocco, Matias ErgoPro or the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard (not released yet) would be the most interesting if you want a compact layout like the HHKB.
The µTron is the only one of these with Topre switches but the keys are smaller than on regular keyboards.

Do check out the reviews at Xah Lee's site. That's a pretty good list and shows also non-split ergo keyboards.
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 March 2017, 14:51:03 by Findecanor »
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Offline hoggy

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 13:37:20 »
The only other board I can think of is the Esrille.
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 14:55:25 »
Yeah, but the Esrille is not split into two separate halves.

The ErgoDox got its thumb cluster from the Kinesis "Contoured" line, the latest model being the Kinesis Advantage2. It is also not split.
I find the thumb cluster to be a little bit better on it, but not very much so.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 15:50:57 »
Also, Katy and Dactyl.

Offline vvp

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 16:36:58 »
The ErgoDox got its thumb cluster from the Kinesis "Contoured" line, the latest model being the Kinesis Advantage2. It is also not split.
I find the thumb cluster to be a little bit better on it, but not very much so.
Of course Kinesis' thumb cluster feels better. it is 9 mm nearer in the XY plane than on ergodox. It is also about 4 mm higher than the bottom pointing finger key. Kinesis thumb cluster is also about 3 mm moved in the negative Y axe direction (i.e. about 3 mm nearer to the typist body) compared to Ergodox. This makes it a bit nearer to the user's palm.

As for as Katy keyboard, I moved thumb cluster nearer to the key well by about 2.5 mm more in XY plane (compared to Kinesis). Also my thumb cluster is about 12 mm deeper compared to Kinesis ... and moved about 4 mm in the positive Y axe direction ... again when compared to Kinesis.
The last move in the Y direction looks "stupid" but it makes the bottom thumb cluster keys (which do not exist on Kinesis) easier to reach. The Alt key is still acceptably reachable since both Alt and Ctrl keys are moved nearer to the keywell by about 7.5 mm.

Just some data to get a better idea since I spend a lot of time measuring these things in the past.

Offline FRGMNT

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 16:52:48 »
Have you actually tried an Ergodox, or are you just assuming it's bad. I held away from buying one for years because I was convinced that I wouldn't like it, but in the end it's not as bad as I thought, quite good actually.
Good luck finding a Mu-Tron... I would suggest keyboard.io as an alternative. The physical layout looks somewhat more comfortable than the Ergodox, but I haven't actually used one so it's just an assumption.

Never got the chance to try an Ergodox, but I tried typing with my thumb positioned out to where it would roughly be on the Ergodox. Pretty sure I wouldn't like it as I've already got CMC joint problems from sports.

I can hearthily recommend the Keyboardio Model 01. Its thumb arc + palm key combo is in every way superior to the ErgoDox thumb cluster.

I write this as someone who has been using an ErgoDox EZ as his daily driver for almost a year, and as someone who typed thousands (still increasing) of words on a Model 01 prototype. It's a lot better, and not just the thumb cluster.

Mind you, the ErgoDox is still a huge improvement over pretty much any non-split keyboard, even if its thumb cluster ain't perfect. So if you don't want to wait for the Model 01, the ErgoDox is still an option.

Another option is the Diverge 3, for example. There may be others, but as I'm not interested in DIY kits, I likely miss or ignore a lot of them.

The Keyboardio looks like a strong contender. My only issue might be how tall the unit is. I use my keyboard on a tray under my table, and there is only about 4 inches of clearance. Leaning more towards the Diverge since it is DIY so I can put in my preferred Zealios switches. I just wished the side pinky buttons were at least 1.75u, but I'll take 1U keys rather than constantly stretching my thumb. (I'd imagine FPS gaming to be pretty fatiguing after a while).

Another option would be for me to not use the thumb cluster for a spacebar and use the key under "v" since that's where I naturally rest my thumb on normal keyboards. I'm also in a weird position where I use my right thumb for space and my left for when I game. Probably will need to utilize layers for when I switch between the two.

« Last Edit: Fri, 03 March 2017, 17:19:31 by FRGMNT »

Offline davkol

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 03 March 2017, 18:18:00 »
The best thing you can do is print out the layout, put some keycaps on it, and try to fake typing or reaching for keys.

It's helpful not only because of the thumb clusters, but also because of column offset in columnar layouts. For example, I've learned this way, that Diverge is nearly unusable for me, because my index fingers aren't long enough (different people have different digit ratios).

Online algernon

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 04 March 2017, 01:46:07 »
I can hearthily recommend the Keyboardio Model 01. Its thumb arc + palm key combo is in every way superior to the ErgoDox thumb cluster.

I write this as someone who has been using an ErgoDox EZ as his daily driver for almost a year, and as someone who typed thousands (still increasing) of words on a Model 01 prototype. It's a lot better, and not just the thumb cluster.

Mind you, the ErgoDox is still a huge improvement over pretty much any non-split keyboard, even if its thumb cluster ain't perfect. So if you don't want to wait for the Model 01, the ErgoDox is still an option.

Another option is the Diverge 3, for example. There may be others, but as I'm not interested in DIY kits, I likely miss or ignore a lot of them.

The Keyboardio looks like a strong contender. My only issue might be how tall the unit is. I use my keyboard on a tray under my table, and there is only about 4 inches of clearance.

According to their kickstarter campaign, the height is about 25mm, so about an inch. My prototype appears to be a little taller than that (from bottom to top of a keycap): ~35mm, still well under 4 inches.

Leaning more towards the Diverge since it is DIY so I can put in my preferred Zealios switches.

I've not tried Zealios yet, but the Quiet Clicks are easily the best switch I ever had the pleasure to type on. Each to their own, though =)

Offline RominRonin

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 04 March 2017, 14:30:43 »
I still haven't got round to making a pcb for the katana, might that work?

Offline vvp

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 04 March 2017, 16:35:34 »
I just wished the side pinky buttons were at least 1.75u, but I'll take 1U keys rather than constantly stretching my thumb.
1U keys are better. They are easier to obtain and they make keyboard smaller!  And the main point is that they are not harder to hit than wider keys since they are near (next to the pinkie home column). Don't allow narrower outer pinkie columns discourage you from Diverge 3.
My personal problem with Diverge 3 would be the outer pinkie column staggering. The Esc and - keys suck. Those columns should be staggered the same (or a tiny bit more) as the normal pinkie column. Also pinkie columns staggering of ˝U is on the small side for a flat keyboard.

Offline FRGMNT

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 05 March 2017, 18:33:45 »
The best thing you can do is print out the layout, put some keycaps on it, and try to fake typing or reaching for keys.

It's helpful not only because of the thumb clusters, but also because of column offset in columnar layouts. For example, I've learned this way, that Diverge is nearly unusable for me, because my index fingers aren't long enough (different people have different digit ratios).

Yeah, tried that out, and the Ergodox is overall a better layout. It's not bad at all for gaming it seems if I just move my space to either keys under 'C' or 'V'.

1U keys are better. They are easier to obtain and they make keyboard smaller!  And the main point is that they are not harder to hit than wider keys since they are near (next to the pinkie home column). Don't allow narrower outer pinkie columns discourage you from Diverge 3.
My personal problem with Diverge 3 would be the outer pinkie column staggering. The Esc and - keys suck. Those columns should be staggered the same (or a tiny bit more) as the normal pinkie column. Also pinkie columns staggering of ˝U is on the small side for a flat keyboard.

Printed out the layout to try and the pinkie column staggering didn't make any sense to me either. Overall I like the Ergodox more.

I'll probably hold off from the Keyboardio for now until a more customized alternative is available. For now I decided on an Atreus 62. It's not split but it still provides a nice angle for my wrists. I'll probably get an Infinity Ergodox on the next drop... for research...


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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 05 March 2017, 22:01:50 »
The reason the ergodox thumb cluster feels so odd,  is because the majority of users are not tented high enough.


On a flat keyboards, any key that would require the thumb which is further away would force the wrist to twist inwards to reach, it is this twisting which feels odd..

This is the reason why the space bar on flat keyboards are so long to begin with and reach so deeply into the palm area..

But on an ergodox, because it mimics the kinesis style thumb clusters,  the distance CAN BE increased because in the tented configuration, the cluster does not require wrist twisting..


If  you are using the Ergodox @ the Proper tenting angle (50-55 degrees)the thumb cluster is perfect and easy to reach....




Offline LuX

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 06 March 2017, 10:38:05 »
Or maybe, I don't know, it takes time to get used to the distance. Especially for someone who is used to keeping their thumb under the palm. Ultimately I find the thumb placement on the Ergodox more natural than having to constantly contract the thumb muscles, but beyond the first thumb button it's definitely a bit of a stretch. For games you'll want to use ESDF instead of WASD.

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 06 March 2017, 14:50:45 »
Or maybe, I don't know, it takes time to get used to the distance. Especially for someone who is used to keeping their thumb under the palm. Ultimately I find the thumb placement on the Ergodox more natural than having to constantly contract the thumb muscles, but beyond the first thumb button it's definitely a bit of a stretch. For games you'll want to use ESDF instead of WASD.

for games, i just switch that last 1x button to spacebar. because the ergodox has layers.. hahahahaha

Offline weazen

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 06 March 2017, 16:20:46 »

If  you are using the Ergodox @ the Proper tenting angle (50-55 degrees)the thumb cluster is perfect and easy to reach....


Completely agree with this. I used a Kinesis as my daily driver for 5 years before switching to the Ergodox about a year ago. At first, I absolutely HATED the Ergodox. But after tweaking it and figuring out what angles worked well for me, I can't imagine going back now.

Finding a comfortable tenting angle makes all the difference on the Ergodox.

Offline cribbit

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 06 March 2017, 17:47:09 »
I much prefer an arc of keys, all 1u. Building it myself.
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Offline dantan

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 10:46:04 »
Are there tenting solutions around for a high angle for keyboards with straight edges unlike the ergodox? Is there any way of taking a mistel barocco or kinesis freestyle, and matching that with a tenting stand at 45 degrees? At such a height I can't use normal risers.

Offline cribbit

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 12:53:13 »
Are there tenting solutions around for a high angle for keyboards with straight edges unlike the ergodox? Is there any way of taking a mistel barocco or kinesis freestyle, and matching that with a tenting stand at 45 degrees? At such a height I can't use normal risers.

Could try building a base yourself.
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Offline daerid

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 15:07:40 »
If  you are using the Ergodox @ the Proper tenting angle (50-55 degrees)the thumb cluster is perfect and easy to reach....

Unfortunately, this is not universally true because of different hand sizes and such. I had 3 ErgoDoxes I used religiously for over a year, all at various tenting angles (upwards of 60deg at times), and in all cases I had to slightly extend my thumb to reach the space key. This ended up causing me tendonitis at the base of my thumbs.

I still have two of the original run ErgoDox PCBs lying around. I might try building one with 2x space keys for the thumb clusters...

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 15:41:44 »
If  you are using the Ergodox @ the Proper tenting angle (50-55 degrees)the thumb cluster is perfect and easy to reach....

Unfortunately, this is not universally true because of different hand sizes and such. I had 3 ErgoDoxes I used religiously for over a year, all at various tenting angles (upwards of 60deg at times), and in all cases I had to slightly extend my thumb to reach the space key. This ended up causing me tendonitis at the base of my thumbs.

I still have two of the original run ErgoDox PCBs lying around. I might try building one with 2x space keys for the thumb clusters...


The fact that you did not establish a consistent use regime and configuration is the cause of your un-successful ergonomic attempt.


The ergodox even with its further away thumb cluster is easy to reach for all hand sizes.



It is also possible that you've used the keyboard at an improper height.


The table surface which the ergodox is 55* tented upon, should be approximately 2-3.5 inches below your resting-elbow height.

Offline vvp

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 18:05:40 »
daerid:
What tp4tissue is trying to tell you is that you should not try to reach the far away thumb buttons by stretching the thumbs into extreme positions but you should move the whole hand up/down while not changing thumb position so much. The movement should originate from your elbow and that will provide you "lever". That is also the reason he likes so high tenting angles. They allow him to move arm more in the vertical direction (using biceps/triceps from elbow). Thanks to that you just do not need thumb cluster near to the key well because you can move whole hand.

Well, that is his theory (if I understood his comments correctly over the past few months). He is not alone who likes it. Jacobolus subscribes to the "lever" theory too. The other option is getting a keyboard which has thumb clusters nearer or (if it is not enough) just do not use the more far away thumb keys.

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 18:32:22 »
daerid:
What tp4tissue is trying to tell you is that you should not try to reach the far away thumb buttons by stretching the thumbs into extreme positions but you should move the whole hand up/down while not changing thumb position so much. The movement should originate from your elbow and that will provide you "lever". That is also the reason he likes so high tenting angles. They allow him to move arm more in the vertical direction (using biceps/triceps from elbow). Thanks to that you just do not need thumb cluster near to the key well because you can move whole hand.

Well, that is his theory (if I understood his comments correctly over the past few months). He is not alone who likes it. Jacobolus subscribes to the "lever" theory too. The other option is getting a keyboard which has thumb clusters nearer or (if it is not enough) just do not use the more far away thumb keys.



I am not against a closer thumb cluster, 

However, I am merely pointing out that it's unnecessary,  because of how long the LEVER of the arm is jointed at the elbow and shoulder.

Offline plainbriny

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 23:11:14 »
This?

167947-0

With more easily reachable thumb cluster, tenting and trackpoint!
But this one took too much effort, I spent quite some time to cut and solder the cable.
Maybe someone can modify the ergodox PCB, with detachable thumb cluster linked with connector/cables?

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 23:43:06 »
What I was about to say. This:
http://xahlee.info/kbd/axios_keyboard.html
 
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Offline daerid

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 12:18:15 »
The fact that you did not establish a consistent use regime and configuration is the cause of your un-successful ergonomic attempt.


The ergodox even with its further away thumb cluster is easy to reach for all hand sizes.



It is also possible that you've used the keyboard at an improper height.


The table surface which the ergodox is 55* tented upon, should be approximately 2-3.5 inches below your resting-elbow height.

sigh...

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 12:20:55 »

sigh...

@ daerid..

Tp4 not trying to be a --dk--..


But am 100% sure, that it can be done,, it is a functional and healthy part of any balanced breakfast.. !!


Offline daerid

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 12:21:35 »
daerid:
What tp4tissue is trying to tell you is that you should not try to reach the far away thumb buttons by stretching the thumbs into extreme positions but you should move the whole hand up/down while not changing thumb position so much. The movement should originate from your elbow and that will provide you "lever". That is also the reason he likes so high tenting angles. They allow him to move arm more in the vertical direction (using biceps/triceps from elbow). Thanks to that you just do not need thumb cluster near to the key well because you can move whole hand.

Well, that is his theory (if I understood his comments correctly over the past few months). He is not alone who likes it. Jacobolus subscribes to the "lever" theory too. The other option is getting a keyboard which has thumb clusters nearer or (if it is not enough) just do not use the more far away thumb keys.

This seems...wrong. Like, really wrong. I've been typing for over 20 years every day for 8-12 hours a day (excepting travel / vacations / etc). I've never experienced RSI, except for when I have to unnecessarily use muscles that should be relaxed, which is what happens when I use the ErgoDox. Moving my hands at the elbow during normal typing would be absolutely disastrous.

That's just how I work though. The 'dox works great for most people as is. Just, not for me. Not where those thumb buttons are.

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Offline daerid

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 12:23:17 »
@ daerid..

Tp4 not trying to be a --dk--..


But am 100% sure, that it can be done,, it is a functional and healthy part of any balanced breakfast.. !!

<3 you're probably right. I think I'll pick one up soon and try some more experimentation.

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 12:23:40 »
daerid:
What tp4tissue is trying to tell you is that you should not try to reach the far away thumb buttons by stretching the thumbs into extreme positions but you should move the whole hand up/down while not changing thumb position so much. The movement should originate from your elbow and that will provide you "lever". That is also the reason he likes so high tenting angles. They allow him to move arm more in the vertical direction (using biceps/triceps from elbow). Thanks to that you just do not need thumb cluster near to the key well because you can move whole hand.

Well, that is his theory (if I understood his comments correctly over the past few months). He is not alone who likes it. Jacobolus subscribes to the "lever" theory too. The other option is getting a keyboard which has thumb clusters nearer or (if it is not enough) just do not use the more far away thumb keys.

This seems...wrong. Like, really wrong. I've been typing for over 20 years every day for 8-12 hours a day (excepting travel / vacations / etc). I've never experienced RSI, except for when I have to unnecessarily use muscles that should be relaxed, which is what happens when I use the ErgoDox. Moving my hands at the elbow during normal typing would be absolutely disastrous.

That's just how I work though. The 'dox works great for most people as is. Just, not for me. Not where those thumb buttons are.


You are correct..

Your limited set of motions is precisely why you could not adapt to the ergodox..

It requires an entire new complex of movement to traverse the typing plane...

COMPLETELY different from a flat keyboard..


If you've tried to preserve your flat board moves,  it simply will not work.

Offline vvp

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 14:55:16 »
Moving my hands at the elbow during normal typing would be absolutely disastrous.
If you want to limit hand movement then you need a contoured keyboard. I think my Katy is the best but there are at least 3 more contoured keyboard projects around geekhack or deskthority. And above the all there are the off the shelf options: Kinesis Advantage and Maltron 3D. I did not try Maltron but I think Kinesis Advantage is quite usable.

Anyway with any keyboard there will be some hand movement.(*) I move hands slightly too even with my keyboard built just for my hands. So it may be interesting to go the whole way as tp4tissue does and type "with passion" as pianist do :D

(*) Well, maybe not with some really minimal and very chord dependent keyboards.

Offline daerid

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 16:17:03 »
If you've tried to preserve your flat board moves,  it simply will not work.

that's actually a really fair point.

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Offline natas206

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 11:51:58 »
The Ergodox has been out for a few years and the only thing holding me back from purchasing one is waiting to see if they will release a version with the thumb cluster keys positioned better. Anyone know if a split keyboard like that has come out or if there are any plans for one in the works? My wrists are painfully desiring to stop bending unnaturally, but I love typing on my HHKB.
 

The Advantage2 has a much better thumb cluster than the ErgoDox IMO, and of course it's not a flat keyboard like the ErgoDox, so your hands naturally fit into the keywells & thumb clusters, which also means you're not reaching as far as you would on a flat keyboard/ErgoDox. Of course, it's not entirely split though, but I find most users fit well with the separation the Adv2 offers.

After the Freestyle Edge is released, a fully split version of the Adv2 may be next but that won't be for some time.



Offline Ascorgie

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 08 June 2017, 09:30:02 »
Here's what I came up with. I couldn't stomach the price of the Diverge 2 or 3, whatever it was when I was looking, and I didn't like the Ergodox thumb cluster. I made my own staggered ortho layout with a 1u thumb cluster. It's no dactyl, but I wanted something that didn't require 3d printing. I can share the top plate design if you like.

Hope you find something that works!

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 08 June 2017, 11:58:23 »
Here's what I came up with. I couldn't stomach the price of the Diverge 2 or 3, whatever it was when I was looking, and I didn't like the Ergodox thumb cluster. I made my own staggered ortho layout with a 1u thumb cluster. It's no dactyl, but I wanted something that didn't require 3d printing. I can share the top plate design if you like.

Hope you find something that works!



TENTING.. !!!!!

Offline F2a

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 12 June 2017, 17:04:12 »
I hesitated buying one for a long time but I'm currently trying out the kinesis advantage 2 and after a week of heavy use I think it's about to 'click' . It's not split which is what I wanted as well but it's surprisingly very comfortable. Definitely more comfortable than flat ergodox. Thumb cluster is positioned seemingly perfect. They have a 60 day trial give it a shot.

Offline mrduul

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 15 June 2017, 19:10:35 »
B on the right side would be great.
 
 
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 15 June 2017, 20:09:15 »
B on the right side would be great.

Why?
It's a honest question.
I mean, "B" is exactly at the middle (considering home keys as reference), which initially means it wouldn't matter the side.
But then, the two rows above have 5 keys each (Q,W,E,R,T and A,S,D,F,G).
Also, the right side is overpopulated with 2 extra columns of symbols between the letters and "Enter".
So it makes sense to let "B" on the left side.

Is there a reason to put it on the right, besides personal preference/use?
 
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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 16 June 2017, 12:43:35 »
B on the right side would be great.

Why?
It's a honest question.
I mean, "B" is exactly at the middle (considering home keys as reference), which initially means it wouldn't matter the side.
But then, the two rows above have 5 keys each (Q,W,E,R,T and A,S,D,F,G).
Also, the right side is overpopulated with 2 extra columns of symbols between the letters and "Enter".
So it makes sense to let "B" on the left side.

Is there a reason to put it on the right, besides personal preference/use?


On my ergodox my left bottom row is   z x b c v     

because it's linear,  this preserves the feel of c and v  using index finger, some people use  middle finger for c that's not wrong, but for example, if you try to type  cat,  it's easier to use index finger for c..

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 16 June 2017, 18:42:55 »
That's why I always thought that, in a matrix arrangement, the key under "A" shouldn't be a letter but anything else.
Let's just use "\" under "A" for example. It should be then "\, Z,X,C,V".
I've try to discuss this before but people tend to get off-topic...
Although, it wasn't here at geekhack. That's basically why I've give up on deskthority.
https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/grid-correction-mod-planck-t14474.html

Anyway, the discussion of "B" was only considering the "standard" layout people use to do.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 June 2017, 18:48:43 by Vladimir »
 
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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 16 June 2017, 19:29:53 »
That's why I always thought that, in a matrix arrangement, the key under "A" shouldn't be a letter but anything else.
Let's just use "\" under "A" for example. It should be then "\, Z,X,C,V".
I've try to discuss this before but people tend to get off-topic...
Although, it wasn't here at geekhack. That's basically why I've give up on deskthority.
https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/grid-correction-mod-planck-t14474.html

Anyway, the discussion of "B" was only considering the "standard" layout people use to do.



There's no absolute standard..    but on the ergodox,  the b can not go after v, because that would feel very unnatural for c AND v

z and x can't move either, because they use pinky and ring , there's no where to move them because if you shift it one over,  you'd be hitting ring and middle on z and x

that would be too large a shift.


my zx b cv  preserves 4 out of the 5 fingerings,   which is the ideal adjustment minimizing change.

Offline davkol

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 17 June 2017, 03:31:08 »
some people use  middle finger for c that's not wrong, but for example, if you try to type  cat,  it's easier to use index finger for c..
I don't see how that's any easier. In fact, I find it _worse_ considering that the index finger than has to move to T and press that.

The traditional method
  • distributes load more evenly, and
  • enables more parallelization (only it's sometimes better to let middle finger take over one of index finger's two columns, e.g., for 'gr').

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 17 June 2017, 09:04:20 »
some people use  middle finger for c that's not wrong, but for example, if you try to type  cat,  it's easier to use index finger for c..
I don't see how that's any easier. In fact, I find it _worse_ considering that the index finger than has to move to T and press that.

The traditional method
  • distributes load more evenly, and
  • enables more parallelization (only it's sometimes better to let middle finger take over one of index finger's two columns, e.g., for 'gr').


the middle finger is too long to hit C with,  it has to break its finger arc if your hand is unmoving. breaking the finger arc makes a key less reliable. because the flush finger tip down is the most sensitive contact position.

if you attempt to preserve the finger arc while using middle for c,  then you end up having to move the whole hand up and down between c and a


So you see, the optimal way IS to use index for c..

If you haven't pushed 125wpm +,  you might not notice this.



Now, this is field experience..  I wouldn't say it's impossible to use middle for c,  I just don't believe it's optimal given what I know about typing..




Offline davkol

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 17 June 2017, 12:23:15 »
the middle finger is too long to hit C with,  it has to break its finger arc if your hand is unmoving. breaking the finger arc makes a key less reliable. because the flush finger tip down is the most sensitive contact position.

if you attempt to preserve the finger arc while using middle for c,  then you end up having to move the whole hand up and down between c and a
As opposed to jumping two rows with a single finger, right.

If you haven't pushed 125wpm +,  you might not notice this.
Who cares.

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 18 June 2017, 00:06:31 »
the middle finger is too long to hit C with,  it has to break its finger arc if your hand is unmoving. breaking the finger arc makes a key less reliable. because the flush finger tip down is the most sensitive contact position.

if you attempt to preserve the finger arc while using middle for c,  then you end up having to move the whole hand up and down between c and a
As opposed to jumping two rows with a single finger, right.

If you haven't pushed 125wpm +,  you might not notice this.
Who cares.

hahahaha.. plebs..

Offline vvp

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 18 June 2017, 07:03:09 »
if you attempt to preserve the finger arc while using middle for c,  then you end up having to move the whole hand up and down between c and a
In the past, you claimed that moving whole hand is better/quicker since it provides "lever". Or did you mean it only for moving in the plane of key switches (and not in the direction which is perpendicular to the plane)?

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Re: Is there an Ergodox with better thumb cluster locations?
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 18 June 2017, 10:00:55 »
if you attempt to preserve the finger arc while using middle for c,  then you end up having to move the whole hand up and down between c and a
In the past, you claimed that moving whole hand is better/quicker since it provides "lever". Or did you mean it only for moving in the plane of key switches (and not in the direction which is perpendicular to the plane)?


When it's necessary, you do it.

but for C on staggered qwerty board,   it's easier and a shorter move to do using index,  and it' doesn't require a hand move at all.

So that has no bearing on whether hand move is good or bad,  you just wouldn't use it here.  It would be an extra move that you didn't need to do.


--YOU CAN-- if you like,  but why,