Anyone have a Logitech G700s??

[clickclack123]

Can someone who has a Logitech g700s tell me if it has SmartShift, like my MX Revolution??

SmartShift is where you can have the scroll wheel in clicky mode, but if you flick it beyond a certain threshold speed, it will automatically switch into free-spinning mode.

I use this a lot and like it when on webpages. I'm thinking about getting a G700s for the extra buttons but this feature is important to me.

[SpAmRaY]

You press the wheel and it does what I think your describing.

[clickclack123]

You press the wheel and it does what I think your describing.

I know you can switch manually, but the MX revolution has a motor in it to switch the clutch off automatically if you scroll beyond a certain threshold speed. You can hear a bit of a click when it engages/disengages.

This means you don't have to manually switch, which is a nice feature.

from http://www.logitech.com/lang/pdf/ib-microgear_and_smartshift_EN.pdf:





It's the auto-shift part that I'm interested in.

Anyone have a g700s that can comment?

[SpAmRaY]

Pretty sure it doesn't do that I don't see anything in the software that does that and have never experienced it using the mouse. And I mispoke earlier but to manually switch the G700(s) there is a button you press, I was thinking of another mouse where you press the wheel itself to change modes.

[ferociousfingerings]

not sure about the refreshed newer g700s, but my regular g700 is manually switched between the two scroll modes. However, i never use the free-spin mode at all. There's a big, clunky, unwieldy button, and when setting from free spin mode, back into notch-mode, you have to fiddle with it to get it properly locked in place, or the notches will just randomly stop catching... giving you "sudden free spin" when you're expecting notches.

[IvanIvanovich]

No, as far as I know only the MX Revo had that feature. All subsequent models have a button that does mode shift, most of which you can set the wheel button to mode shift as best compromise.

[clickclack123]

No, as far as I know only the MX Revo had that feature. All subsequent models have a button that does mode shift, most of which you can set the wheel button to mode shift as best compromise.

Thanks for the replies, guys. Unfortunately that's a dealbreaker for me. Seems like a step backwards to remove that feature. Must be cheaper to produce. Guess I'll stick with my old mouse until hopefully they release another one with that feature...

BTW on MX Revo you can assign any button to switch modes of the wheel (at least when you have uber options installed, which I do). I have it set so that pressing the wheel down switches it between clicky and free-spinning. I did this because it is usually hard to press the wheel down without scrolling a bit. I use the search button as a middle mouse button. This setup works great for me, but I would like to have the extra buttons of the g700s.

[IvanIvanovich]

Yeah I feel you. I was a MX Revo user for years... basically since it debuted. Until I stepped up to 1440p and couldn't deal with the low dpi on the Revo anymore. I ended up with a g700 as the next best compromise. It's mostly OK and I have become accustomed to it. The only big complaints I have about it over the Revo is the super **** battery life and the inferior grip on the ring/pinky side and I do like the thumb rocker on the Revo much better than the stacked thumb buttons on the g700. It sure isn't as good overall compared to the Revo, but I just needed much more than 800dpi these days so I had to give something. I guess I am one of the few that doesn't really miss the smartshift. I had more problems with it that anything really, with it going into free mode randomly when I sure as hell didn't want it to.

[clickclack123]

Yeah I feel you. I was a MX Revo user for years... basically since it debuted. Until I stepped up to 1440p and couldn't deal with the low dpi on the Revo anymore. I ended up with a g700 as the next best compromise. It's mostly OK and I have become accustomed to it. The only big complaints I have about it over the Revo is the super **** battery life and the inferior grip on the ring/pinky side and I do like the thumb rocker on the Revo much better than the stacked thumb buttons on the g700. It sure isn't as good overall compared to the Revo, but I just needed much more than 800dpi these days so I had to give something. I guess I am one of the few that doesn't really miss the smartshift. I had more problems with it that anything really, with it going into free mode randomly when I sure as hell didn't want it to.

That's interesting that you'd say that you like the thumb rocker better than the buttons on the G700. I hardly use the rocker, I find it a bit... weird feeling. Kind of too much motion necessary for what is essentially a button, combined with not enough tactile feedback.

I was hoping the G700 thumb buttons would be better, although I have read some reviews saying they have hardly any tactile feedback, which doesn't sound very good.

I also wanted to have the extra three buttons on the index finger.

The battery life does sound horrible, and that is a pretty major negative!

I'm not a gamer but I'd like midrange dpi, with lots of buttons with tactile feedback and a nice autoswitching hyperscroll wheel. And wireless. A good, high end professional/geek mouse.

I don't know why these companies are so brain dead... The Performance Mouse MX was a step backwards from the Revolution MX. It lost the motor for the scroll wheel and a couple of buttons. It was a bit cheaper, I suppose.

I use a computer for 12 hours a day. I don't care how much the mouse costs if it does all that I want it to.

Are you listening, logitech??

I don't see why there aren't any highend companies making this kind of stuff, kind of like Razer or something but not for the l33t Gamer market? Even if 0.01% of the computer user market wants this stuff, that's still a lot of people and a lot of money.

Kind of like the silly keyboards people around this forum buy.

Probably Logitech patents would prevent anyone else copying the hyperscroll wheel...

[clickclack123]

If anyone's interested I found a useful list on wikipedia of Logitech mice with a nice sortable column showing what type of scroll wheel they have. Not sure how complete it is, but it seems good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Logitech_products#Pointing_devices

[Leslieann]

The G700 is the same as the G700s, except color I think.
And no, it doesn't auto shift/hyper scroll, I miss that too. It's one reason the Revolution mice still fetch silly prices on Ebay. 

As for the bad battery life on the G700, look around for 2400 or 2700mah Nihm batteries, they will last all day at high resolution. You still have to charge daily, but you will make it through the day. I use 4800 DPI and 333 polling and it will go about about 18 hours on a 2400mah, and 20 hours on a 2700mah battery. I tried higher DPI and polling, but I couldn't hardly see any difference.



I agree with ClackClack123 though,
I too felt the Performance MX was a step back. The sensor was fine for the short time I had it, but the shape is odd, it lost hyper scroll and in my case, one of the buttons was wonky from day one. It was why I bought my first G700.

Put the Revolution scroll wheel on a G700 pcb, and put that inside the Revolution body with a better battery. Perfection.
I don't need 50 buttons, I need a solid mouse that works. If it costs a bit more, fine, so long as it does what I want.

[ferociousfingerings]

The G700 is the same as the G700s, except color I think.
And no, it doesn't auto shift/hyper scroll, I miss that too. It's one reason the Revolution mice still fetch silly prices on Ebay. 

As for the bad battery life on the G700, look around for 2400 or 2700mah Nihm batteries, they will last all day at high resolution. You still have to charge daily, but you will make it through the day. I use 4800 DPI and 333 polling and it will go about about 18 hours on a 2400mah, and 20 hours on a 2700mah battery. I tried higher DPI and polling, but I couldn't hardly see any difference.



I agree with ClackClack123 though,
I too felt the Performance MX was a step back. The sensor was fine for the short time I had it, but the shape is odd, it lost hyper scroll and in my case, one of the buttons was wonky from day one. It was why I bought my first G700.

Put the Revolution scroll wheel on a G700 pcb, and put that inside the Revolution body with a better battery. Perfection.
I don't need 50 buttons, I need a solid mouse that works. If it costs a bit more, fine, so long as it does what I want.

Yep, battery life has been an issue for my g700 as well; i use it corded 99.9% of the time... and i was totally going to suggest one of those new fancy special rechargeable batteries, especially something like the sanyo eneloop (can be recharged 1800+ times(!) without "memory effect"). I keep meaning to get some, but always end up throwing money at something else first.

That said; the wheel on the g700 isn't "auto-shift," but it also has a nice give to it, and even in clicky-notch-mode, you can still fling it and make it almost free-spin quite a bit; it's not a stubborn wheel by any means. If you want the bumps, you just go slow and easy on it; if you want to spin it, you can... but it's not quite like free-spin, when you do. The notches are... kinda soft but well-defined. Or rather, maybe they're a little hard, but the pressure is loose enough that it doesn't feel like you have to push it through each bump.

Only things i'm not quite happy with on the g700 are the forward-positioned sensor and the awkwardness of tip-gripping it (can't reach the front thumb buttons without repositioning my hand). The wheel is not one of my complaints, and though it could be better, i think it's a good compromise between notchy and free spin... and for those moments when you really want free spin, you can just mash the button behind the wheel to disengage the bumps (oh, and, mine does that bizarre phantom cursor drift... it'll just gradually pixel itself across the screen every now and then, despite my being obsessed with keeping the surface free of junk/hairs/fibers/etc.).

edit: one thing i've been doing for a little while now, since i dislike the high amount of pressure for middle click, combined with the low amount of pressure to side-click the wheel, is that i have been using the top rear thumb button as middle click, so when i want to fast scroll a web page, for example, i just use my thumb to activate the "middle-click" scroll-drag feature (in firefox; idk if this works elsewhere). Far more comfortable for me.

[Leslieann]

I'm just using Powerex 2700mah and Energizer 2400mah.
Eneloops are overkill for this and usually have a lower capacity, they will last through more charges though. Powerex are pretty cheap but rated as some of the best out there.

The only time I get "creep" is when a small fiber gets on the sensor and yeah, the wheel spins quite free even in notch mode. When I first got it, I really disliked it, now it's not bad. Better than most other mice that have excessive drag.  I just think it was something they didn't want to pay for. Then again, while I never had a problem with it, maybe the other system was problematic. It did sometimes act inconsistent from one program to another. I use my middle rear button to reload pages.

I use a thin, hard mouse pad that seems to keep the sensor more free from junk better than the cloth ones. I use a Razer Sphex stick on pad. I wasn't so happy with it at first, I hate hard mouse pads, but this one isn't so bad and I've come to see the benefits to this type. It's lasted far longer than the cloth ones, with less problems.


The biggest complaint I have with the G700 these days is the shape. I like the mouse, it works great (looks could be better), and it's not uncomfortable, I've just never really "bonded" with it like I did other high end Logitech mice. Others, I drop my hand onto and it feels at home, this one, has never felt that way.

[clickclack123]

/necro

Just thought I'd add to this that I've just come across the Logitech MX Master.

Has the hyperscroll with SmartShift that I want, but a weird thumb scrollwheel for horizontal scrolling, and mouse gesture support using a thumb button, which sounds weird and annoying to me.

I would rather have more side buttons like the g700s has than that, but whatever.

It also has bluetooth, usb, and the wireless Logitech unifying receiver, and can pair to three bluetooth devices at once, which is cool. Unfortunately bluetooth only works in Windows 8 and above according to this nice review.

I'm happy Logitech hasn't abandoned the hyperscroll though, I couldn't go back to a non-hyperscroll mouse now.

[Elrick]

/necro

Just thought I'd add to this that I've just come across the Logitech MX Master.

Has the hyperscroll with SmartShift that I want, but a weird thumb scrollwheel for horizontal scrolling, and mouse gesture support using a thumb button, which sounds weird and annoying to me.

I would rather have more side buttons like the g700s has than that, but whatever.

It also has bluetooth, usb, and the wireless Logitech unifying receiver, and can pair to three bluetooth devices at once, which is cool. Unfortunately bluetooth only works in Windows 8 and above according to this nice review.

I'm happy Logitech hasn't abandoned the hyperscroll though, I couldn't go back to a non-hyperscroll mouse now.

(Attachment Link)

Definitely my next upgrade here in Convict Town due to it's nice size and lack of excess buttons  .

[Tiramisuu]

I own the G700s.  All buttons are nice crisp and in good places.   The wheel is very nice.
I'm upgraded from the MX Explorer and tracking is precise and it works on any surface.

The reason they dropped the stupid clutch in the first place is that you give up control to it.
I use my wheel in spreadsheets, doco, html, zoom etc and being able to spin freely and slowly is far preferable to using the clicking mechanism.   With the g700s I almost never toggle the gear on.   It is extreeeemely smooth and controllable.

I'm quite tempter by the MX Master as I have become used to the thumb button but the extra 3 buttons on the top left of the g700s are very usable and in just the right spot for my grip.

The software isn't spectacular but it does pretty much what I need.

[clickclack123]

Just a warning, I just found out that the MX Master does not have per-application button settings. That's a ridiculous dealbreaker for me. What were they thinking??

I'm thinking about buying a g700s soon but the battery life sounds like a big negative. It would be ok if it had a dock that you could just throw it onto when you're done, but afaik it's just a usb cable that you have to fiddle with and plug in.

[IvanIvanovich]

g700(s) just use regular AA nimh, comes with eneloop 1900mah. You can always get a higher capacity 2500mah, and keep spare charged to swap out just in case. Of course it can be used plugged in too if need be.
I guess I have gotten used to the battery charge life on it now. I guess it could be worse. I'm getting around 4 days for normal use, and maybe 1.5 days if I am gaming a lot, or doing design work or something where I am moving the mouse around almost constantly all day long. I'd still recommend it for anyone that wants wireless and generally use palm grip.

[SpAmRaY]

I charge mine every night but use it ~8-10 hours a day.

Plugging it in isn't a big deal.

[IvanIvanovich]

I stopped charging mine unless it stops working because the battery is depleted. Charges seem to last a lot longer that way. Also, its software is 100% useless about knowing when it's low as it usually is still like 50%+ when it would start saying so. Best to disable those notifications.

[SpAmRaY]

Mine has this weird bug that the settings randomly go back to default and I have to reload my profile.

[tbc]

Mine has this weird bug that the settings randomly go back to default and I have to reload my profile.

I have to turn it off before taking out the battery.  otherwise, the profile gets wiped.

there was this one time where it wiped out the profile on thecomputer -_-

[clickclack123]

I'm getting around 4 days for normal use, and maybe 1.5 days if I am gaming a lot, or doing design work or something where I am moving the mouse around almost constantly all day long.

Actually, that doesn't sound as bad as I thought. I thought it was 1.5 days with normal use. Hmmm.

The profile wiping doesn't sound great, but if it's backed up on the pc, that's ok.

[IvanIvanovich]

I can take my battery out and all 3 of my onboard saved profiles stay there.

[Custom101]

@Clickclack123 - I have recently purchased the Logitech MX Master and I thought I'd let you know of my experience with the 2 features which worry you (horizontal scroll wheel and gesture).

1. Horizontal scroll wheel
I consider my hand to be quite regular in size. The horizontal scroll wheel is positioned perfectly for my thumb. This may be irritating for you, especially if you prioritize the forward/back buttons which have been pushed back in a 'harder to reach' location. If you have larger hands and you use the forward/back buttons you WILL be irritated.

2. Gesture button
I wouldn't worry about this. The button's location and tough pressure resistance makes nigh impossible to accidentally click.

[clickclack123]

Thanks for the reply, Custom101.

The biggest problem with the MX Master for me is the lack of per-application button profiles. The horizontal scrollwheel just seems useless to me.

I think I'm not understanding something about how the gesture button is used as well. What do you do, hold down the gesture button and move the mouse in a gesture? What commands are available with the gestures? I think I'd rather more buttons tbh.

Anyway, I've just bought a g700s, and I'm pretty happy with it so far. Here's my thoughts on it, in case anyone's interested:

pros:

• no lag, great mouse response
• excellent customisable software (dpi switching, button customisation per-application, etc)
• although battery life is not great, it's good that it uses an easily-switchable AA rechargeable battery, so you can use an external charger if you like

cons:

• zero tactile feedback from and hard to find lower thumbswitches - they're too close to the top thumbswitches
• wheel mode switching button should be below the other one (too far to reach the other one)
• battery life
• not a fan of the rough plasticky feel where you rest your thumb, rubbery would be nicer
• very stiff usb cable, unpleasant to use while wired

[Custom101]

The MX Master does lack extra buttons that's for sure. The 'extra buttons' which it does have: forward, back, mode shift button and gesture button all have roughly about 20-40 alternate function presets via the Logitech software.

For the gesture button, users can activate it by pressing down on the thumb rest for example anywhere on a page and dragging the mouse in left, up and right directions which by default automatically snap the page. Pressing down on the gesture button and dragging down by default will show/hide desktop.

The G700s looks like quite a militarized mouse I get how people like more buttons, but I could never get into using them. My old mouse, the Cooler Master Sentinal Zero G had about 5-8 programmable buttons and I never used them lol. The 700s looks like it may have 15 programmable buttons! Real talk, do you use all of them?

[clickclack123]

Actually, yes I do use all of them!

For example, this is my profile for Firefox, I have Ctrl-W to close a tab, Ctrl-Tab to switch to the last-used tab, back and forward on the thumb switches, Ctrl-F11 is to take a snapshot of the screen using Irfanview, the dpi up and down buttons I'm probably going to change to copy and paste:



My vlc profile, for watching sports, thumb for skipping back/forward, index finger for next/prev video, S is to stop, etc:



You can never have enough buttons!!

[Custom101]

Copy and paste buttons sounds incredible.. I might change my back and forward buttons to that!

[suby4me]

I used to use the g700s. I bought it on a whim as I like collecting mouses (yeah funny hobby). It wasn't all bad of a mouse, especially how my hand could fit pretty decent on the mouse. It sorta reminded me of the old body shape of the mx1000, that I have and used in the past. Still works like a champ, my sister uses it now.

I did have the buttons set up for my mac. Mostly, close windows, minimize, show desktop, switch spaces, and so on. I liked that the mouse had a nice moderate amount of buttons, not too crazy like those mmo mouses. However, the downsides of the mouse drove me away from it. Most of them the same reasons as everyone here:
1. Battery life
2. using the rough cord to charge
3. Every time I plugged the mouse to charge, the profiles would get all messed up. That's what really drove me insane.

The great thing I loved about the mouse was the scroll wheel. That was the best one hands down. I especially liked how with a flick of a switch, I could flick that scroll wheel and watch stuff zoom up and down. Really great. I'm an odd ball and often when I'm looking for mouses, the scroll wheel is one of the things I consider.
But with all the cons, I ended up getting the g502 proteus. That is a good mouse, but the scroll wheel was crap. The silver material used flaked so now its black with random bits that gives the surface a rough texture. I know its weird, but that ended up driving me to get another mouse. I decided to shift from logitech once more to another mouse brand. I got the roccat tyon. It's an interesting mouse, but the scroll wheel is awesome.

[clickclack123]

I used to use the g700s. I bought it on a whim as I like collecting mouses (yeah funny hobby).

Well apparently you're in the right place. One of us!!

3. Every time I plugged the mouse to charge, the profiles would get all messed up. That's what really drove me insane.

I've only had the g700s for a week but haven't experienced that yet. Hopefully Logitech has fixed the problem? I hope so because I've bought another one for using at work!!

The great thing I loved about the mouse was the scroll wheel. That was the best one hands down. I especially liked how with a flick of a switch, I could flick that scroll wheel and watch stuff zoom up and down. Really great.

Yes, I don't even consider a mouse without hyperscroll anymore. Some people seem to hate it though.

I got the roccat tyon. It's an interesting mouse, but the scroll wheel is awesome.

The roccat tyon looks nice. If I wasn't so attached to the hyperscroll wheel I'd certainly check it out.

[clickclack123]

I got the roccat tyon. It's an interesting mouse, but the scroll wheel is awesome.

Could you describe the wheel on the tyon and compare it to the wheel on the g700s please?

[davkol]

It's completely different.

• rubber surface with bigger notches
• no free scrolling, only clearly defined steps with quite a bump inbetween
• no tilting (the analog thumb stick or the weird knuckle button can be used instead)
• an ordinary switch for clicking

[Tiramisuu]

I'm currently using the g700s and am very happy with it.  I put my hands on the mx master Las week and was disappointed.   The g502 however was shockingly nice.

I'm going to have to go back and play with it some more but it may be my new favorite.   Sadly it is a wired mouse.

[iLLucionist]

Had that mouse for approximately 3 days.. didn't like it, returned it. That scroll wheel ugh. Just didn't feel right for me. I now use an Avior 7000.. love the scrollwheel. Also, I was afraid I would miss the side scrolling but fortunately I discovered I hardly ever side scroll, so nog big miss for me.

[Leslieann]

I don't get their thinking on the Master, in this day and age, with 1080 and 4k monitors, how often do you side scroll.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would have been much happier with it had they put in the G700 sensor and software. Operating on glass is neat, but bigger screens really benefit greatly from higher DPI.

[clickclack123]

For the people commenting about the g700s losing the profiles, is it actually losing the profiles or just using the onboard profiles?

Every now and then I have had to restart the system-tray app to get it to use the application-specific profiles again.

[jukaduke1184]

It does not. There's a button right below the scroll wheel that will switch between the 2 modes. It's a mechanical button, so there's feedback.

[Leslieann]

It could be a firmweare that's bad, or switching profiles.

I load one profile and delete the others.

[MykB77]

The best mouse would be the MX Revolution with the (adjustable) auto scroll clutch and practically perfect ergo shape, updated with the g700 buttons, resolution and scan rate.
Throw in RGB just cause. (different colours for different macro modes...)

Loved the Revolution until the battery charge issues started.  Fixed them by modifying the charging contact plates on the base charger.  Then started using multiple high resolution monitors.  Alas, not enough dpi for that.

[tp4tissue]

G900... so new... so xpensive..

But the G700 fell from $100 to $50 in one year..

Sooooo.... G900 will prolly fall to $75 in one year..

[Leslieann]

Necro thread.

[tp4tissue]

Necro thread.

Is lesli getting the G900 ?

[Leslieann]

Probably not.
It would be nice to have the better battery life, but I'm not so sure of the design.

More than anything though, the $150 price tag turns me off. F-that. You can get the G700s for much less than half that ($60 at Newegg and best buy). It may make sense if you're a lefty, as it's one of the only high end mice like it that will work for them, but for me and the way I kill mice, that's $10 a month (I destroy mice about every 15 months).

[iLLucionist]

Does the G900 have built-in ram to store settings? Because f**k logitech software.

[tp4tissue]

Does the G900 have built-in ram to store settings? Because f**k logitech software.

yes

[iLLucionist]

Does the G900 have built-in ram to store settings? Because f**k logitech software.

yes

That's nice. Still feels like logitech f**king me in the *ss for that absurd price of 180 euros here in the Netherlands though. What the hell are they thinking?

[clickclack123]

Yeah, that price is totally insane.

I'm willing to spend money on stuff that I like (like keyboards, etc) but nothing about this mouse makes it worth more than double the cost of a g700s to me. It even has less buttons than the g700s.

[tp4tissue]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..   

[iLLucionist]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Hopefully in a year it sold like sh*t to send of a signal to logitech. I really hope nobody buys it at that price.

[tp4tissue]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..   

Damn them Rich Kids...

[rurushu]

And I'm just sitting here, waiting for one day where the G9x refresh would be released....

[tp4tissue]

And I'm just sitting here, waiting for one day where the G9x refresh would be released....

that's the g303..

[rurushu]

And I'm just sitting here, waiting for one day where the G9x refresh would be released....

that's the g303..

But the shape od g303 is so odd... ibcant get a proper grip on it because im a claw gripper

[Leslieann]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

[iLLucionist]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

[tp4tissue]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

Logitech knows what they're doing..

There are youtube videos of their laboratory and all the custom equipment setups they've made to test their mice.

The fact that they had to make them , tells you that they're on the frontier of this endeavor..


All of the little issues that come up on the other brands do not happen on Logitech mice, because they've got a long time experience in this area.. Things like latency, tracking anomalies


And that François Morier guy... he just exudes good engineering..

[iLLucionist]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

All of the little issues that come up on the other brands do not happen on Logitech mice, because they've got a long time experience in this area.. Things like latency, tracking anomalies

Well, that's simply not true, sorry. A quick google reviews there are plenty issues with logitech mice. Typical logitech mouse issues are feet coming off (g502), scroll wheel issues, and (especially right) mouse button stop working after some time (not 10 years, but like 1-2 years or so).

I'm not saying logitech is crap, but there are issues that shouldn't be there given the prices they charge for their upper range mice, like g402, g502 and beyond.

For as the "expertise". Yeah sure, they have expertise. But making a video about their lab does not mean they are superior compared to other vendors per se. Of course they have their competitive advantage, but it's just expert power they try to persuade their customers with: "look at our lab, we know what we are doing. now we have connected with the geeks again right? This is real tech right? now go buy or products."

No flame intended, just my opinion on logitech.

[tp4tissue]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

All of the little issues that come up on the other brands do not happen on Logitech mice, because they've got a long time experience in this area.. Things like latency, tracking anomalies

Well, that's simply not true, sorry. A quick google reviews there are plenty issues with logitech mice. Typical logitech mouse issues are feet coming off (g502), scroll wheel issues, and (especially right) mouse button stop working after some time (not 10 years, but like 1-2 years or so).

I'm not saying logitech is crap, but there are issues that shouldn't be there given the prices they charge for their upper range mice, like g402, g502 and beyond.

For as the "expertise". Yeah sure, they have expertise. But making a video about their lab does not mean they are superior compared to other vendors per se. Of course they have their competitive advantage, but it's just expert power they try to persuade their customers with: "look at our lab, we know what we are doing. now we have connected with the geeks again right? This is real tech right? now go buy or products."

No flame intended, just my opinion on logitech.

Buttons dying is a non-issue.

Any batch of components can be bad..

I'm talking about tracking error and engineering..

What comes out of the factory broken is a matter of quality control..

But the DESIGN is sound..


Where everyone else has liftoff issues, latency, jumping cursors..    THIS is where the gold is, and the most important aspect of a product..

If you personally get a bad batch,  no big deal,  they send you another one.  this will happen to everyone.

[iLLucionist]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

All of the little issues that come up on the other brands do not happen on Logitech mice, because they've got a long time experience in this area.. Things like latency, tracking anomalies

Well, that's simply not true, sorry. A quick google reviews there are plenty issues with logitech mice. Typical logitech mouse issues are feet coming off (g502), scroll wheel issues, and (especially right) mouse button stop working after some time (not 10 years, but like 1-2 years or so).

I'm not saying logitech is crap, but there are issues that shouldn't be there given the prices they charge for their upper range mice, like g402, g502 and beyond.

For as the "expertise". Yeah sure, they have expertise. But making a video about their lab does not mean they are superior compared to other vendors per se. Of course they have their competitive advantage, but it's just expert power they try to persuade their customers with: "look at our lab, we know what we are doing. now we have connected with the geeks again right? This is real tech right? now go buy or products."

No flame intended, just my opinion on logitech.

Buttons dying is a non-issue.

Any batch of components can be bad..

I'm talking about tracking error and engineering..

What comes out of the factory broken is a matter of quality control..

But the DESIGN is sound..


Where everyone else has liftoff issues, latency, jumping cursors..    THIS is where the gold is, and the most important aspect of a product..

If you personally get a bad batch,  no big deal,  they send you another one.  this will happen to everyone.

So basically what you are saying is: physical product failure doesn't matter as long as the sensor is good?

[tp4tissue]

So basically what you are saying is: physical product failure doesn't matter as long as the sensor is good?

There are many different types of failures..

And overall, you've mentioned only that SOME logitechs have dead buttons.. a problem which ALL mice manufacturers have because they all source the same Switch OMRON D2FC-7N..


Generally, logitech's manufacturing quality is solid, no better or worse than any other mice, they're all made by the same few oems in China..


I'm talking about engineering know-how,  and here is where Logitech as significantly lengthier experience than most other manufacturers..   They also have the research infrastructure in place to move forward.. while the other guys just makes big number box art.. 

Logitech is among the first to STOP playing that DPI war on boxart ..


So, in summary..  All these mice are made from boxes of scraps,  but LOGITECH has the best implementation of said heap..  such that their pile performs significantly better..

[iLLucionist]

So basically what you are saying is: physical product failure doesn't matter as long as the sensor is good?

There are many different types of failures..

And overall, you've mentioned only that SOME logitechs have dead buttons.. a problem which ALL mice manufacturers have because they all source the same Switch OMRON D2FC-7N..

That's true indeed. You cannot held manufacturers accountable for the failing of subparts they buy from other vendors unless they could have foreseen that the parts are subpar. But overall Logitech doesn't really use crappy components from other vendors.

Generally, logitech's manufacturing quality is solid, no better or worse than any other mice, they're all made by the same few oems in China..

Except for the mousewheels and feet, I agree with you.

I'm talking about engineering know-how,  and here is where Logitech as significantly lengthier experience than most other manufacturers..   They also have the research infrastructure in place to move forward.. while the other guys just makes big number box art.. 

Logitech is among the first to STOP playing that DPI war on boxart ..

Agreed.

So, in summary..  All these mice are made from boxes of scraps,  but LOGITECH has the best implementation of said heap..  such that their pile performs significantly better..

Probably true.

Personally, I also dislike their recent mouse designs. But that is personal of course. That says nothing about build quality and component choice.

[tp4tissue]

Here is a Video that is convincing of the fact that Logitech knows what they're doing..

[Bucake]

i suppose most people think that every company has an R&D department like logitech has.
funnily, they actually are the only company that has one that's that sophisticated.

but it's no secret (anymore) that most companies actually do very little themselves. a good example is teksyndicate, who seem to know absolutely nothing about mice. companies like zowie are barely any different.
i suspect Razer has more of an idea as to what they're doing compared to the smaller companies, but still not close to what Logitech has.

unfortunately (for logitech) a lot of customers turn away from their shapes or the way their mice look.
they seem stubborn in wanting to release "fresh" mice -- a lot of people just want to see their old shapes return with a new sensor, but logitech insists on making "spaceships" that turn people off.
but maybe they're right, maybe their old shapes are just too "normal" to sell well, nowadays..

[iLLucionist]

i suppose most people think that every company has an R&D department like logitech has.
funnily, they actually are the only company that has one that's that sophisticated.

but it's no secret (anymore) that most companies actually do very little themselves. a good example is teksyndicate, who seem to know absolutely nothing about mice. companies like zowie are barely any different.
i suspect Razer has more of an idea as to what they're doing compared to the smaller companies, but still not close to what Logitech has.

unfortunately (for logitech) a lot of customers turn away from their shapes or the way their mice look.
they seem stubborn in wanting to release "fresh" mice -- a lot of people just want to see their old shapes return with a new sensor, but logitech insists on making "spaceships" that turn people off.
but maybe they're right, maybe their old shapes are just too "normal" to sell well, nowadays..

Honest question.. what I take from all this info is that you need some serious R&D to keep mouse behavior within confines. You need knowledge, algorithms, firmware to make it so that when you move the mouse from point X1, Y1 up to point X2, Y2, the mouse actually registers one straight line across a variety of DPI's. So don't all these companies need an R&D department to make that happen? Is it even possible just to make a mold, slap in a PCB and a sensor with some clicky buttons and a scroll wheel and just take it to the market?

[tp4tissue]

Honest question.. what I take from all this info is that you need some serious R&D to keep mouse behavior within confines. You need knowledge, algorithms, firmware to make it so that when you move the mouse from point X1, Y1 up to point X2, Y2, the mouse actually registers one straight line across a variety of DPI's. So don't all these companies need an R&D department to make that happen? Is it even possible just to make a mold, slap in a PCB and a sensor with some clicky buttons and a scroll wheel and just take it to the market?

YES, it is possible..

All of the component companies release parts as part of Platforms..  Anyone can start a mouse company,  buy into the platform,  and sell the product..


you know all those $300 ghetto headphone amps from China?  Yea,  same deal, New graduates who don't know anything about audio fidelity,  They buy a set of blueprints or just Copy the reference, lay out the pcb with some "german capacitors"  and sell it to you..

And the n0vice consumers who don't REALLY know anything deep about electronics are like oooooooo.... look at the shiny aluminum housing that cost all of $3 to make..

That's actually what MOST of these mouse companies do..

[iLLucionist]

Honest question.. what I take from all this info is that you need some serious R&D to keep mouse behavior within confines. You need knowledge, algorithms, firmware to make it so that when you move the mouse from point X1, Y1 up to point X2, Y2, the mouse actually registers one straight line across a variety of DPI's. So don't all these companies need an R&D department to make that happen? Is it even possible just to make a mold, slap in a PCB and a sensor with some clicky buttons and a scroll wheel and just take it to the market?

YES, it is possible..

All of the component companies release parts as part of Platforms..  Anyone can start a mouse company,  buy into the platform,  and sell the product..


you know all those $300 ghetto headphone amps from China?  Yea,  same deal, New graduates who don't know anything about audio fidelity,  They buy a set of blueprints or just Copy the reference, lay out the pcb with some "german capacitors"  and sell it to you..

And the n0vice consumers who don't REALLY know anything deep about electronics are like oooooooo.... look at the shiny aluminum housing that cost all of $3 to make..

That's actually what MOST of these mouse companies do..

So it's basically like graphics cards and motherboards: there is a reference design and you can just bluntly start pushing those out from a factory and selling them with your brand on it.

Damn... it feels like a big setup. So what mouse companies are genuinely doing R&D? Zowie? Mionix?

[tp4tissue]

So it's basically like graphics cards and motherboards: there is a reference design and you can just bluntly start pushing those out from a factory and selling them with your brand on it.

Damn... it feels like a big setup. So what mouse companies are genuinely doing R&D? Zowie? Mionix?

Logitech  founded:  1981,  made their first mouse in 1982

Mionix : 2007


You tell me,  who knows more about how to do the clicking-on-stuff.



Let's not even go into Zowie . jesus..

[tp4tissue]

1

[Leslieann]

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

For wired mice, I won't say over-rated, but certainly no better or worse, but you do have good alternatives.


For wireless, it's a whole new ballgame, and it sucks.
There is only about 4 good wireless (desktop) mice manufacturers (possibly a 5th), that's it, and and it's only been recent that half of those even became available. Most wireless mice are meant for casual use only and with the abuse I heap on them, I'm lucky if they last 6 months before they start glitching like crazy (still better than how long wired last). My house is like a wireless mouse graveyard, I find them all over the place. If there was a good wireless alternative to Logitech, I would be open to it, but frankly there isn't.

The Ratt 9 is/was just as expensive as the G900 (it's dropped $20 now), I wasn't impressed with the 7, and reviews on it are sketchy as heck. MS makes office mice. I haven't used a Gigabyte or the Razer yet, but given my experience with others, I hesitate to try Gigabyte, and Razer is, well, Razer (and as costly as the G900).

The G900 looks better and better the more I write.

[iLLucionist]

1

I'm suprised Razer is acceptable. But yeah... Logitech doesn't seem so bad after all. I like Mionix better, but that's personal. I'll probably try a G502 at some point out of curiosity. I wanted to try steelseries but I read about enormous QC issues. Same with zowie.

[iLLucionist]

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

For wired mice, I won't say over-rated, but certainly no better or worse, but you do have good alternatives.


For wireless, it's a whole new ballgame, and it sucks.
There is only about 4 good wireless (desktop) mice manufacturers (possibly a 5th), that's it, and and it's only been recent that half of those even became available. Most wireless mice are meant for casual use only and with the abuse I heap on them, I'm lucky if they last 6 months before they start glitching like crazy (still better than how long wired last). My house is like a wireless mouse graveyard, I find them all over the place. If there was a good wireless alternative to Logitech, I would be open to it, but frankly there isn't.

The Ratt 9 is/was just as expensive as the G900 (it's dropped $20 now), I wasn't impressed with the 7, and reviews on it are sketchy as heck. MS makes office mice. I haven't used a Gigabyte or the Razer yet, but given my experience with others, I hesitate to try Gigabyte, and Razer is, well, Razer (and as costly as the G900).

The G900 looks better and better the more I write.

Besides the still ridiculous price point, I can see that the G900 might be appealing to some. Of course, the Apple Magic Mouse (or whatever) is a joke. But at least it lasts a long time and doesn't fail. Of course it has a laser, acceleration, crappy ergonomics. But it does give a good wireless signal, always works, and has good battery life. But yeah... it seems like wireless mice is compromises all over the place.

[woll3]

Damn... it feels like a big setup. So what mouse companies are genuinely doing R&D? Zowie? Mionix?

It isnt exactly like it was mentioned, IC and SROM(the Sensor Firmware, which can be tweaked depending on the capabilities of the brand) are provided by Pixart, actual Device Firmware has to be written by someone else(either by the brand or the factory), same goes for PCB design, ID, etc.

Which in the case of Zowie is done by Kingsis, and everything they do is based on the Deathadder, including 10 year old MCU´s.
Mionix is basically LaView, just slightly modified designs(by LaView ofc.).
Logitech and A4Tech are doing stuff completely in House, including Production.
Razer, Roccat and SS do design and Firmware inhouse and Production is outsourced, mostly to Dexin and LaView.
CM Storm buys Designs from Dexin and lets them do modifications to the ID and EE, except for their ultra low end stuff.
Finalmouse is buying OEM Mice from Motospeed.
Cougar, EVGA, Corsair and ASUS have contracted the designstudio Cre8 for most of their mice, Production and other stuff is again mostly done by Dexin and LaView.
Ducky is using some taiwanese factory for everything, apparently the same as Epic Gear, which also explains why the tooling is crap.
Func/Fnatic, i dont even care, and i dont even want to know given the overall quality of their products.
Qpad is using LaView for everything.

But tl;dr is that only Logitech, Razer, Roccat and SS are actually doing something, with varying success ofc.

[iLLucionist]

Damn... it feels like a big setup. So what mouse companies are genuinely doing R&D? Zowie? Mionix?

It isnt exactly like it was mentioned, IC and SROM(the Sensor Firmware, which can be tweaked depending on the capabilities of the brand) are provided by Pixart, actual Device Firmware has to be written by someone else(either by the brand or the factory), same goes for PCB design, ID, etc.

Which in the case of Zowie is done by Kingsis, and everything they do is based on the Deathadder, including 10 year old MCU´s.
Mionix is basically LaView, just slightly modified designs(by LaView ofc.).
Logitech and A4Tech are doing stuff completely in House, including Production.
Razer, Roccat and SS do design and Firmware inhouse and Production is outsourced, mostly to Dexin and LaView.
CM Storm buys Designs from Dexin and lets them do modifications to the ID and EE, except for their ultra low end stuff.
Finalmouse is buying OEM Mice from Motospeed.
Cougar, EVGA, Corsair and ASUS have contracted the designstudio Cre8 for most of their mice, Production and other stuff is again mostly done by Dexin and LaView.
Ducky is using some taiwanese factory for everything, apparently the same as Epic Gear, which also explains why the tooling is crap.
Func/Fnatic, i dont even care, and i dont even want to know given the overall quality of their products.
Qpad is using LaView for everything.

But tl;dr is that only Logitech, Razer, Roccat and SS are actually doing something, with varying success ofc.

Thanks! This is really insightful.

[Bucake]

It isnt exactly like it was mentioned, IC and SROM(the Sensor Firmware, which can be tweaked depending on the capabilities of the brand) are provided by Pixart, actual Device Firmware has to be written by someone else(either by the brand or the factory), same goes for PCB design, ID, etc.

snip

But tl;dr is that only Logitech, Razer, Roccat and SS are actually doing something, with varying success ofc.

yeah i guess i didn't do such a good job simplifying it. i also didn't know so many specifics about which parts of the development the companies do themselves.
thanks for clarifying!

i didn't realize A4Tech did so much in-house, i guess the way their products look and how their marketing is done brought me to the conclusion it's outsourced junk. (that key response video sure was funny.)