Dvorak vs Ergonomic keyboard

[knightjp]

I was wondering which of the two is a better to prevent RSI, Carpal Tunnel.
1. Get an Ergonomic keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage OR
2. Learn the Dvorak layout and not change the current keyboard.

[davkol]

[knightjp]

Having both is certainly a dream scenario. But I'm trying to figure out which of the two will yield a better result.
Obviously considering that ergo keyboards come in the QWERTY layout, they must have some benefits over changing the entire layout.
One the other hand, without the expense of an ergo keyboard, changing the layout to Dvorak will have the monetary cost of '0', but will cost you something else - time.

[algernon]

Both. But a good ergonomic keyboard (ErgoDox, Keyboardio Model01) will have more benefits than switching to Dvorak. Since you will have to re-learn touch typing on a split ergo, you may as well do both at the same time.

[davkol]

Hyperbolic analogy: It's like asking, do I eat fiber, or proteins? Obviously both. They're both important components of balanced diet.

The physical layout has direct impact on things like wrist posture (when touch typing). That's established.

Different permutations of symbols on physical keys have a variety of more nuanced properties. It impacts how easy/hard it is to learn a (touch) typing technique, what the typing rhythm is like then, if there are some more common typing errors etc.

In practice, the exact impact will vary depending on use case.

For example, I wouldn't be able to do my current work efficiently without a flexible text editor, custom layers (with special symbols), easy access to physical modifier/trigger keys and text expansion, because what I do is edit text and its formatting, but not type; then, the letter arrangement doesn't matter much and access to hotkeys/macros and special symbols is more important. If I were writing prose, it'd be a different story.

[knightjp]

Hyperbolic analogy: It's like asking, do I eat fiber, or proteins? Obviously both. They're both important components of balanced diet.

There is little evidence the QWERTY itself is the cause of RSI or Carpal Tunnel. However it is considered as a contributing factor; that and the design of the standard keyboard layout. The position of the hand and the wrists are really not ideal. However many typists live with it and have no issues at all. I have a friend who is amazingly fast on QWERTY. You literally like hear 5 keystrokes and when you look at the screen, there's quite a long sentence with punctuation.

It is a proven fact that Dvorak does alleviate  the pain of those suffering with RSI and Carpal Tunnel. Clearly if someone wishes to avoid it entirely, they will do well to switch to Dvorak or Colemak; something more comfortable.
I'm also sure that someone can change his or her risk situation with a good ergo keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage. The question is which of the two has more of an impact in reducing the risks.

[tp4tissue]

Ergodox

[davkol]

There is little evidence the QWERTY itself is the cause of RSI or Carpal Tunnel. However it is considered as a contributing factor; that and the design of the standard keyboard layout. The position of the hand and the wrists are really not ideal.

If you're looking for a direct link in such a complex behavior, which is—to make things worse—insufficiently studied in detail, you're in for a disappointment.

There are clear-cut arguments to be made, though. If a combination of a typing technique and a layout reduces, say, same-finger ratio, such repetition is reduced. Ditto if the layout helps reduce typing errors (i.e., there are fewer corrections needed). If the layout makes learning to (touch) type easier, users are more likely to use such technique and gain respective benefits (such as lack of eye/neck strain from checking the keyboard while typing).

However many typists live with it and have no issues at all. I have a friend who is amazingly fast on QWERTY. You literally like hear 5 keystrokes and when you look at the screen, there's quite a long sentence with punctuation.

So what. I can run 5 km faster than 99.9% of people, and that's without training. The smoker across the street has lived to 90. And so on.

It is a proven fact that Dvorak does alleviate  the pain of those suffering with RSI and Carpal Tunnel.

Really? I'd like a citation on that.

The question is which of the two has more of an impact in reducing the risks.

And as I've said, those are two different things and it depends on circumstances.

If only use hotkeys most of the time and don't type, I'm not getting any benefits from a layout optimized for typing; in fact, it might be getting in the way, if the key bindings were designed for another layout (US QWERTY).

If I needed to type, but couldn't touch type, using a keyboard like Kinesis Advantage would be counterproductive by making the "hunting" part of "hunt and peck" more difficult. However, a suitable layout might help me learn to touch type.

…

[knightjp]

It is a proven fact that Dvorak does alleviate  the pain of those suffering with RSI and Carpal Tunnel.

Really? I'd like a citation on that.

I said "alleviate" not "elevate"   

The number of testimonials should suffice as evidence to the fact that Dvorak does help people who have existing conditions.
Since we know that it reduces the pain so the case can be made that switching to Dvorak will definitely reduce of getting RSI or carpal tunnel.
But by how much of a factor.
Not everyone that suffers has the same issues. What works as a remedy for one, will not work for another.

But what if a QWERTY typist and does not want to switch to Dvorak because he uses keyboard shortcuts, etc. Would switching to an ergo keyboard actually help or not?

[davkol]

No, anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. It might disprove something as a counterexample, but hardly in such complex issues.

There is little evidence the QWERTY itself is the cause of RSI or Carpal Tunnel.

…

It is a proven fact that Dvorak does alleviate  the pain of those suffering with RSI and Carpal Tunnel.

You're contradicting yourself. If using Dvorak instead of QWERTY by itself reduces such [cumulative] injuries, then that means QWERTY makes them worse. Technically, you could argue that it's still not the cause of such injuries, but there likely isn't a single cause, only contributing factors. Obvious question is if a factor is significant and, well, you're saying that the change of layout has significant impact.

[knightjp]

Well we all know that the standard keyboard design is not ideal. With the right posture, desk-setting, keyboard and mouse placement, etc.; if I place my fingers in the home positions on the keyboard, my wrists are still slight curving outwards. One can try and keep the wrists and forearms in a straight line, while on the home row; but that would require a conscious effort and is not exactly that comfortable.
So this would remain the same no matter what keyboard layout I used.

Dvorak's hand alternating rhythm does help in alleviating the strain you start to feel on the wrists and fingers after a while of continuous typing. It is more comfortable. However I do not see it completely removing the problem as my hands and fingers are still in the same positions.

On the other hand, if I was to get myself an ergonomic keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage and change the positions of my hands, it stands that I might be able to prevent the strain from ever developing. Am I correct in this assumption?

We know that QWERTY is a contributing factor. Contributing factors are not necessarily all bad.
We know that the sun's heat is a contributing factor to bush fires, but we're not going to say that we should eliminate the problem by removing the sun.
QWERTY's design is not great and they say is left biased. I'm left handed, so its fine with me. However I did find Dvorak even more comfortable than that. 

[knightjp]

After having switched to Dvorak for a couple of months, I am still on the fence about whether it is better than getting an ergonomic keyboard. I did find this video on youtube.

[Wreaxyl]

That's more of a semantics and statistics rabbit hole than an actionable question. I would guess that a more ergonomic keyboard would help more, but if there is a way that we can quantifiably compare the results of the two strategies using available data, I don't know of it. If you're willing to do each of them, and you type enough to benefit from the improved ergonomics, you'd probably better do both. If you hadn't already learned dvorak I would've told you to get an ergo board first, since it's much faster to learn a new layout on a differently shaped keyboard, but that's just for the benefit of others who may have the same question now. If you still want more out of your keyboard ergonomics, you could do as I plan to do. I'm gonna get an Ergodox EZ with a tenting kit and then build myself a dactyl with a Manuform thumb cluster once I feel up to it. You don't have to put as much weight on ergonomics as I do though. Most don't, and only some of them really have to pay for it in wrist pain. There's likely a more affordable option for ergo boards, but there aren't any cheap ones, and it helps that the Ergodox userbase is so numerous and technically skilled. The Kinesis Advantage is also an excellent choice, potentially even better, the big fat waste of space bezzle in the middle just cheeses me off.

[knightjp]

I suppose that the question has never truly been asked before and it certainly seems that no one has ever taken the time to find out. I guess most of us have better things to do and would rather just pick one or both and move on with our lives.
I did see one video on where one person changed to an ergonomic keyboard after seeing a colleague suffer from injuries. And to add to it, he also switched to the Dvorak layout because he wanted to completely eradicate the chances of any injury.
Reading through various posts online, I see that most people tend to do either the layout change and if they do the layout change, they don't get an ergonomic keyboard. However many who have gotten a keyboard have also changed to Dvorak for added comfort.

As of now, I am using Dvorak. I would say that it is extremely hard to say that I am comfortable with it considering that I keep making tons of mistakes due to my QWERTY stint for the past 3 years. Prior to that I was on Colemak. 

[davkol]

Apples to oranges.

What's more important for reading, typeface, or the material it's displayed on? Obviously both matter. A poor choice of typeface may introduce too much cognitive overhead, and a surface with mirror finish or poor contract may cause another kind of strain, which needs to be mitigated later down the pipeline.