Author Topic: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics  (Read 8909 times)

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Offline Linkbane

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A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« on: Sun, 29 September 2013, 22:53:36 »
I was looking at the TECK's website because of our well known troll 'Architect' and I saw how they advertised their keyboard as better for the hand posture because straight boards have people whose hands are straight. However, I recently had an epiphany, well before I saw this post, that one could simply angle their arms differently to produce the exact same effect as a TECK, minus the rise of the keys in the second dimension. I used to type with my arms angled in and wrists straight, as illustrated in the diagram, but I switched to letting my hands fall diagonally onto the keyboard, which I believe is the optimal position for typing and ergonomics.
What brings me the most wrist pain is reaching laterally or diagonally upwards, because the fingers are by nature hinge joints and thus impossible to move laterally without angling the hand. With a 45-degree angle coming onto the board, one can reach diagonally or horizontally with almost no wrist movement, and the hands themselves are in a more comfortable position. I say this as a 130+ typist, who does a lot of writing and type-testing daily. Before, my hands would sometimes deaden in the middle of a minute long test (I'm still a teenager, so I would think that it is probably not age-related), but now my wrists and hands feel very comfortable. Most notably, the keys that the wrist has to move for is lessened. Normally, I reach for (on QWERTY) T, Y, V, B, G, and H, but using the new hand position, with my fingers resting (again in QWERTY terms) on ASDF for the left hand and NKL; on my right- now I reach for T, Y, B, and G. I would say in theory that JIOP would be better for QWERTY typists, as I use Dvorak, but I can't type above seventy on it so I couldn't be sure.

Just a suggestion for those not willing to get an Ergo keyboard but would like their wrists to feel better after typing. And somewhat to laugh at Architect.
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Offline Burz

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 01:44:10 »
OK. Where's the demonstration video?  :D
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 09:11:52 »
OK. Where's the demonstration video?  :D
Heh, I will try and upload one. I would probably have to have an iPad mounted next to my fingers while typing, as I don't have much help. Will get on it. First I'll upload some pictures, then a video.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 10:45:44 »
I was looking at the TECK's website because of our well known troll 'Architect' and I saw how they advertised their keyboard as better for the hand posture because straight boards have people whose hands are straight. However, I recently had an epiphany, well before I saw this post, that one could simply angle their arms differently to produce the exact same effect as a TECK, minus the rise of the keys in the second dimension. I used to type with my arms angled in and wrists straight, as illustrated in the diagram, but I switched to letting my hands fall diagonally onto the keyboard, which I believe is the optimal position for typing and ergonomics.
What brings me the most wrist pain is reaching laterally or diagonally upwards, because the fingers are by nature hinge joints and thus impossible to move laterally without angling the hand. With a 45-degree angle coming onto the board, one can reach diagonally or horizontally with almost no wrist movement, and the hands themselves are in a more comfortable position. I say this as a 130+ typist, who does a lot of writing and type-testing daily. Before, my hands would sometimes deaden in the middle of a minute long test (I'm still a teenager, so I would think that it is probably not age-related), but now my wrists and hands feel very comfortable. Most notably, the keys that the wrist has to move for is lessened. Normally, I reach for (on QWERTY) T, Y, V, B, G, and H, but using the new hand position, with my fingers resting (again in QWERTY terms) on ASDF for the left hand and NKL; on my right- now I reach for T, Y, B, and G. I would say in theory that JIOP would be better for QWERTY typists, as I use Dvorak, but I can't type above seventy on it so I couldn't be sure.

Just a suggestion for those not willing to get an Ergo keyboard but would like their wrists to feel better after typing. And somewhat to laugh at Architect.

The trouble with the staggered flat layout is the   T-Key and Y-Key...

Even with a diagonal hand position,  transitions to and from those important keys require a wrist motion lift, or shoulder lift..

This is where something like the ergodox greatly surpasses all other keyboards.

Its ability to "tent" the center, makes the T and Y keys comfortably reachable without lifts.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 15:15:08 »
The trouble with the staggered flat layout is the   T-Key and Y-Key...

Even with a diagonal hand position,  transitions to and from those important keys require a wrist motion lift, or shoulder lift..

This is where something like the ergodox greatly surpasses all other keyboards.

Its ability to "tent" the center, makes the T and Y keys comfortably reachable without lifts.

I'm not going to dispute the superiority of tented keyboards, especially things like the ED and Kinesis, but this is just what I think is a superior format for a flat board, an intermediary solution that increases ergonomics to a slight degree (and speed, to me) without having to buy an ergonomic board. I would think that this would be something as a preventative measure rather than a solution to hand strain. It should help with pain, but an ergonomic keyboard is a more optimized solution by far. But for someone like me who has spent less on three boards than an ErgoDox or even TECK, and often needs to move keyboards in a backpack, it's a good intermediary.

Basically, I would like to present a solution to someone who wants to stick to a layout, without changing keyboards, and still make things as easy as possibly on them. I do really want to try an Ergodox, though. I just don't have the money and probably very few others live in Houston near me that I could talk with.
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Offline davkol

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 15:49:56 »
The best thing you can do, if you're stuck with a staggered physical layout, is a wide layout mod. It's ridiculous how much one column separation helps.

For me, the main reason to go with a symmetric layout is that it's intuitive. I just move my hand forward, and those number row keys are just under my fingers... no more desperate trying to find the right parenthesis or equal sign. BTW that's probably why there are quite a few matrix keyboards marketed towards kids or elderly people—they almost certainly don't touch type, but there's at least some logic in symmetric layout, making it suitable for hunt'n'peckers.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 30 September 2013, 16:59:12 »
The best thing you can do, if you're stuck with a staggered physical layout, is a wide layout mod. It's ridiculous how much one column separation helps.

For me, the main reason to go with a symmetric layout is that it's intuitive. I just move my hand forward, and those number row keys are just under my fingers... no more desperate trying to find the right parenthesis or equal sign. BTW that's probably why there are quite a few matrix keyboards marketed towards kids or elderly people—they almost certainly don't touch type, but there's at least some logic in symmetric layout, making it suitable for hunt'n'peckers.

I wouldn't be too keen on a non-staggered, because my hands are not aligned perpendicular to the keyboard. Therefore when I reach forwards (up) it is not directly up, i.e. north. Symmetrical layouts are only good if they run perpendicular to the hand, like on the ErgoDox. A flat keyboard without staggering would seem very unergonomic to me. The staggering allows me to feel the row and the symbol; although I can touch type, if there was no obvious change between the '/= and '[]', I wouldn't be able to find the number row '[]'. The differing sizes of the keys helps with this a lot, but non-staggered makes your hands reach diagonally in relation to the finger orientation, which doesn't seem effective.
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Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 00:24:34 »
Being with Carpal Tunnel helped me find the best way to type, since every bad way hurts. in general:

your wrists and arm making a single line is optimal. Moving the wrists down is ok, moving them up is bad.

Pronation is Not optimal, so keyboards should be vertical.

Typing without moving your arms (typing on a rest) is bad. Period.

Using your pinkies for modifiers is not optimal (or so much pinky work, ask emacs users that had RSI).

But if you do use a mouse, MOVING YOUR ARM FROM THE KEYBOARD TO GRAB A MOUSE IS THE WORST THING EVER. All ergonomic benefits go down the drain!


Offline Linkbane

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 00:33:22 »
your wrists and arm making a single line is optimal. Moving the wrists down is ok, moving them up is bad.

Typing without moving your arms (typing on a rest) is bad. Period.

Using your pinkies for modifiers is not optimal (or so much pinky work, ask emacs users that had RSI).

First part I agree. With this layout. the wrists don't move around, just the fingers.
Second part is irrelevant, but either way I disagree. Users who switch to Dvorak and Colemak without fail report highly reduced RSI, and the loss of movement in arms obviously doesn't bother them. I type nearly without moving my arms at 120-140 speeds with this position and my pain is nonexistent, just finger fatigue from typing from extended periods of time at maximum speed.
Third part, I don't really know the veracity. I don't commonly use modifier keys while typing, so I generally move my whole hand if I want to use alt, and let my pinky/thumb actuate it. It always seemed to be the most comfortable solution, unless I am mistaken.
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Offline hoggy

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 00:40:17 »
One of the secretaries at work has the keyboard at a 30 degree angle (flat on the desk, but the left side of the board is close and the right side is further away). The left wrist is straight, but the right hand has the fingers resting on the home keys at an angle. It works for her at least.
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Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 01:21:42 »
your wrists and arm making a single line is optimal. Moving the wrists down is ok, moving them up is bad.

Typing without moving your arms (typing on a rest) is bad. Period.

Using your pinkies for modifiers is not optimal (or so much pinky work, ask emacs users that had RSI).

First part I agree. With this layout. the wrists don't move around, just the fingers.
Second part is irrelevant, but either way I disagree. Users who switch to Dvorak and Colemak without fail report highly reduced RSI, and the loss of movement in arms obviously doesn't bother them. I type nearly without moving my arms at 120-140 speeds with this position and my pain is nonexistent, just finger fatigue from typing from extended periods of time at maximum speed.
Third part, I don't really know the veracity. I don't commonly use modifier keys while typing, so I generally move my whole hand if I want to use alt, and let my pinky/thumb actuate it. It always seemed to be the most comfortable solution, unless I am mistaken.

I'll be more clear on point 2. Lying your wrists (PALMS) and type while your wrist has this position puts pressure on some nerves. Now, I did that for years, and until I developed CTS I found out what hurts more. Now, depends of the keyboard rest, but it's not a practice you should do. You can type without moving your wrists, but without a palm rest. Thats the best position.
I do not think Dvorak is different because sooner or later you will press things that are not in the easy reach of your pinky.
If you can get away with it, perfect (I did that for DECADES), however, I said it should not be done, cause we are talking about better ergonomics, not things we can get away with without feeling pain  ;D


Third part: Yes. Sadly modifiers are not really ergonomic in their typical position. Try Pressing CTRL+A in a keyboard with only a left Control. And, well, tons and tons of modifier combinations that are not really easy to type in the regular designs. Im lucky enough to never had the infamous Emacs Pinky problem (and always used CTRL+N,P, A,E all over unix instead of arrow keys) . Only after using an ergonomic keyboard with a huge CTRL key (MS4000) for months and then using another regular keyboard I realized how terrible it feels for the hand. Now, after using thumb keys and CTS active, I see how much it hurts pressing some modifier combinations and how tired I get now for using the pinky just for shift.


One of the secretaries at work has the keyboard at a 30 degree angle (flat on the desk, but the left side of the board is close and the right side is further away). The left wrist is straight, but the right hand has the fingers resting on the home keys at an angle. It works for her at least.

Well, she thinks it is comfortable... I do not know if it was ergonomic! We all have had our weird habits. I remember I used to type over 90 wps ....coding! and I did that with the cheapest rubber dome keyboard, and sitting in chair that put my elbows lower than the keyboard tray...


BUT I THINK, the real solution for best ergonomics: stretch your hands and arms EVERY DAY. So that way you can type in weird ways and doubt you will hardly see any RSI injury. Does anybody know a guy that practices yoga daily and has CTS or RSI? I don't think so...

Offline davkol

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 05:04:07 »
The best thing you can do, if you're stuck with a staggered physical layout, is a wide layout mod. It's ridiculous how much one column separation helps.

For me, the main reason to go with a symmetric layout is that it's intuitive. I just move my hand forward, and those number row keys are just under my fingers... no more desperate trying to find the right parenthesis or equal sign. BTW that's probably why there are quite a few matrix keyboards marketed towards kids or elderly people—they almost certainly don't touch type, but there's at least some logic in symmetric layout, making it suitable for hunt'n'peckers.

I wouldn't be too keen on a non-staggered, because my hands are not aligned perpendicular to the keyboard. Therefore when I reach forwards (up) it is not directly up, i.e. north. Symmetrical layouts are only good if they run perpendicular to the hand, like on the ErgoDox. A flat keyboard without staggering would seem very unergonomic to me. The staggering allows me to feel the row and the symbol; although I can touch type, if there was no obvious change between the '/= and '[]', I wouldn't be able to find the number row '[]'. The differing sizes of the keys helps with this a lot, but non-staggered makes your hands reach diagonally in relation to the finger orientation, which doesn't seem effective.

The standard staggering isn't consistent across the board, though.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 11:09:50 »
The standard staggering isn't consistent across the board, though.

On second thought, I actually think that non-staggering would be effective. Reaching for the Y (F Dvorak) key and B (X) key is really hard when typing Dvorak, and having the most difficult letters close seems helpful. If only they had a mechanical one cheaper than the (at best) $189 of the TECK..
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Offline davkol

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 13:01:51 »
point of sale keyboards...

Offline hoggy

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 16:04:24 »
Plenty can be done with pos keyboards, rock solid construction and they can be had for cheap if you're patient.





(this will teach me to trust photobucket's editing tools)

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Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 01:37:03 »
Seeing those pics, does anybody know what POS keyboards are those? I can see this in ebay for 25 USD
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PREH-COMMANDER-MC128WX-POS-Keyboard-/141072241683?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20d88f9413 and
this other one http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-2-SASI-EX-10-KB-POS-Terminal-Keyboard-/320813087044?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab1f33944
Are those programmable? how hard are they to program? PS2 only, I can imagine... Can you change were the keys are? why all those little squares?

HOWEVER, I don't see any ergonomics there to be used as a keyboard (I find the key positions on ErgoDox-Maltrox Flat way more ergonomic than those all squared.

Also, looking at the same pictures, I don't get why people want to keep the arrow keys just like in the kinesis. I find it so hard to press shift + alt or cmd + arrow to select text. That's why I'm using this extra layer on the Kinesis http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.msg1058200#msg1058200

Offline hoggy

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 07:17:11 »
The keyboards are Access-IS AKC090 (http://www.access-is.com/pdf/AKC090_Programmable_Keyboard.pdf).  They turn up on ebay every so often.

The Advantage and the Maltrons are a indeed a step up from the re-programmed pos boards.
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 08:35:48 »
Heh, ironic that I'd put up an RSI post and a new hand position. Given that I'd already had minor symptoms, I can't attribute it to the position, and while I feel that it is helpful, I can't be entirely sure.
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Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 13:26:07 »
The keyboards are Access-IS AKC090 (http://www.access-is.com/pdf/AKC090_Programmable_Keyboard.pdf).  They turn up on ebay every so often.

The Advantage and the Maltrons are a indeed a step up from the re-programmed pos boards.


I can't see myself typing on a POS keyboard... looks great for a flight simulator console, but not really good for typing all day.


Heh, ironic that I'd put up an RSI post and a new hand position. Given that I'd already had minor symptoms, I can't attribute it to the position, and while I feel that it is helpful, I can't be entirely sure.

Dude, take care. Do you know about stretch exercises? Thats the best cure for RSI keyboard/mouse related.
And, take it easy with the mouse. It will hurt you even if your injury wasn't mouse related.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 15:41:41 »
Heh, ironic that I'd put up an RSI post and a new hand position. Given that I'd already had minor symptoms, I can't attribute it to the position, and while I feel that it is helpful, I can't be entirely sure.

Dude, take care. Do you know about stretch exercises? Thats the best cure for RSI keyboard/mouse related.
And, take it easy with the mouse. It will hurt you even if your injury wasn't mouse related.

Thank you.  I'm going to try an see the doctor this weekend and ask him if there are any solutions for this.
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Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 14:08:34 »
Heh, ironic that I'd put up an RSI post and a new hand position. Given that I'd already had minor symptoms, I can't attribute it to the position, and while I feel that it is helpful, I can't be entirely sure.

Dude, take care. Do you know about stretch exercises? Thats the best cure for RSI keyboard/mouse related.
And, take it easy with the mouse. It will hurt you even if your injury wasn't mouse related.

Thank you.  I'm going to try an see the doctor this weekend and ask him if there are any solutions for this.


Good luck on that. I've been close to 2 months now with Carpal Tunnel and it's something you need to treat right away.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 14:54:23 »
Thanks kaltar, hopefully I'll get everything done by this weekend. I've gotten to where I can't even type ten minutes at full speed..
Show Image


Is that a potato?!

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Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 19:40:43 »

Is that a potato?!

It's MacGyver's keyboard. It was done with potatoes, a stick of bamboo and the switches are made with real cherries! ;D

Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 19:52:36 »
Thanks kaltar, hopefully I'll get everything done by this weekend. I've gotten to where I can't even type ten minutes at full speed..

Try this stretch exercises.

1) take your right hand and straighten it, make it all straight with your arm, pointing fingers forward, palm down.
2) move your wrist down (fingers straight to the palm, pointing down), stretching all you can (you will fill it in the TOP of your wrist), and use your left hand to help you stretch, pull it towards you as far as pain lets you for 3 seconds (it may hurt little).
3) straighten your palm to position (1) for 2 seconds.
4) Repeat 10 times.

5) Repeat the 4 steps but for pressing your wrist UP (flex your wrist up, pulling towards you)

6) Repeat the 4 steps, but the 1st position is palm up, and flex your wrist down (Similar to step 5, but pointing down)

Do this before typing and you will see how incredibly it will hurt less. Do this stretching each time you sit on the computer until pain is all gone (it also helps prevent Carpal tunnel!)

Offline hoggy

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 00:29:06 »
I had a dragon fruit in the kitchen last week, I should have re-taken the photo. 

I think my intention was to crop the image - but never got around to it...



Is that a potato?!

It's MacGyver's keyboard. It was done with potatoes, a stick of bamboo and the switches are made with real cherries! ;D


GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 03:12:54 »
I had a dragon fruit in the kitchen last week, I should have re-taken the photo. 

I think my intention was to crop the image - but never got around to it...



Is that a potato?!

It's MacGyver's keyboard. It was done with potatoes, a stick of bamboo and the switches are made with real cherries! ;D


No!!! you broke my dreams of a MacGyver keyboard  :'(

Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 03:14:49 »
I had a dragon fruit in the kitchen last week, I should have re-taken the photo. 

I think my intention was to crop the image - but never got around to it...


Wait a second, in those POS keyboards, can you place the keys where you want and put blank spaces where you want them???
What keyboard are those? What model? What type of switches are those used?

Offline hoggy

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 07 October 2013, 06:59:34 »
I had a dragon fruit in the kitchen last week, I should have re-taken the photo. 

I think my intention was to crop the image - but never got around to it...


Wait a second, in those POS keyboards, can you place the keys where you want and put blank spaces where you want them???
What keyboard are those? What model? What type of switches are those used?

Pretty much.  You can uncover/cover switches and reprogram them.  Take a look here - http://www.access-is.com/ and http://www.access-is.com/programmable_pos_keyboard.php#EPOS_QWERTY.

The ones in the pictures are the AKC090 model.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline kaltar

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Re: A Hand Position to Better Ergonomics
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 08 October 2013, 16:50:09 »
I had a dragon fruit in the kitchen last week, I should have re-taken the photo. 

I think my intention was to crop the image - but never got around to it...


Wait a second, in those POS keyboards, can you place the keys where you want and put blank spaces where you want them???
What keyboard are those? What model? What type of switches are those used?

Pretty much.  You can uncover/cover switches and reprogram them.  Take a look here - http://www.access-is.com/ and http://www.access-is.com/programmable_pos_keyboard.php#EPOS_QWERTY.

The ones in the pictures are the AKC090 model.

Cool! I was thinking in making one as a Midi Controller for Apple Logic, but looks like an Ipad is now the ideal controller.
Still... very very tempting