The narrowest useful space bar?

[spremino]

The space bar on Western keyboards seems too wide, and I wonder how narrow it could be while still being comfortable to use for everybody.

Since I press it with my left hand, a space bar as wide as the CVB keys would be enough. What about you, especially if you press it with the right hand?

Thanks.

[kolonelkadat]

I press it almost exclusively with my right hand, just under BMW(NM< in qwerty). I would be fine with a 2x space bar but I cant think of anything else id put there. maybe a µ key or some other special char. honestly though I would much rather have the home row be two or three keys longer than to have a shorter space bar.

[tp4tissue]

probably 1x on something like the Egdx

[spremino]

I press it almost exclusively with my right hand, just under BMW(NM< in qwerty).

Mmm... Hence it couldn't be much narrower.

I would be fine with a 2x space bar but I cant think of anything else id put there.

This seems a better option: splitting it. Both sides could work as a space bar, with the option of customizing them for other uses.

[spremino]

probably 1x on something like the Egdx

What's that? I've looked up "Egdx" and I couldn't find anything related to keyboards.

[Linkbane]

I nearly exclusively use my left hand for spacebar unless I'm just typing very slowly, because I need to float my right hand. It usually rests right where the 'V' key is, and it never goes past the 'C' or 'V' key, as using Dvorak removes the need to move from the left hand almost completely. I would be interested in a keyboard with a spacebar through the 'V' key, and then two programmable keys in the remaining space, which I would program to Ctrl+Delete and delete, from middle to right side. It would actually allow me to use ten, rather than 9, fingers.

[kolonelkadat]

probably 1x on something like the Egdx

What's that? I've looked up "Egdx" and I couldn't find anything related to keyboards.

ergodox. the ergonomic split keyboard. http://ergodox.org/

[IvanIvanovich]

I could live with 2 units, under C V. 2.75 probably more ideal though, little bigger target for gaming time.

[tuxsavvy]

The narrowest space bar that I have used (and still using at times) is a non-Western keyboard but a JIS keyboard. I am sure there are plenty of people whom would love to point out how small/tiny/puny the HHKB JP space bar is however I have had no issues getting used to the small space bar within first few hours of usage. From what I can see HHKB JP's space bar is a little more narrower than the regular JIS keyboard and they only trimmed the space bar length was only because to include  few more keys on the bottom for mainly Japanese input but also to retain how otherwise the keyboard were to be laid out had it been an ISO/ANSI/etc layout.

Almost all the time I hit the space bar with my right thumb regardless of which keyboard I use, if I were to try and hit the space bar with my left thumb it would instantly slow my typing speeds down because I need to pay attention to force my left thumb for hitting space bar more than my right. Otherwise the narrow space bar found on instance with JIS keyboard or even HHKB JP are trivial to get used to as I believe when touch typists have their hands resting on "home" keys (this is true mainly to QWERTY layout, I am not sure for other layouts but I have a hunch it would not be that much different) they would easily notice where their thumbs rest are very close together on the space bar. So realistically in other words a big wide space bar is not really needed unless one intends to hit the space bar (and/or other keys on the bottom row for that matter) by "tucking" their thumbs inwards (towards the palm) so to speak. Realistically from my personal point of view I could not see myself hitting the keys on the bottom row of my keyboards with my thumb more apart from just dedicating my thumbs for hitting mainly the space bar alone. Your (and everyone else's) mileage may vary for needing wide space bars but for me I just do not see what is the fuss is with people moaning about how narrow the space bars found on JIS keyboards are in general.

Whilst on the topic of JIS keyboards, the Japanese people also use keyboards with "split" sort of space bar. They call it thumb shift layout I think. Imagine a regular wide space bar being cut into at least two or three pieces from the middle outwards and that is where you get a similar sort of layout. From what I can see these split space bar should not hinder the touch typist all that much in theory as again with small space bar found on JIS keyboards in general it is a matter of enforcing the hands on "home" row keys and really, leaving the thumbs mainly for hitting the space bar. I have never typed on those thumb shift layout but again I would not believe it would be a nightmare to get used to the slightly varied space bar design. The design otherwise is probably if anything a little more narrower than HHKB JP's space bar for instance.

In short, the narrower the space bar is in general as long as it is placed in the centre of where all the home row keys are positioned for that matter should be a trivial issue in my opinion. If lets say the space bar is both narrow and is off centre of where the home row keys are positioned, that may start affecting one's typing experience in general.

[Linkbane]

The narrowest space bar that I have used (and still using at times) is a non-Western keyboard but a JIS keyboard. I am sure there are plenty of people whom would love to point out how small/tiny/puny the HHKB JP space bar is however I have had no issues getting used to the small space bar within first few hours of usage. From what I can see HHKB JP's space bar is a little more narrower than the regular JIS keyboard and they only trimmed the space bar length was only because to include  few more keys on the bottom for mainly Japanese input but also to retain how otherwise the keyboard were to be laid out had it been an ISO/ANSI/etc layout.

Almost all the time I hit the space bar with my right thumb regardless of which keyboard I use, if I were to try and hit the space bar with my left thumb it would instantly slow my typing speeds down because I need to pay attention to force my left thumb for hitting space bar more than my right. Otherwise the narrow space bar found on instance with JIS keyboard or even HHKB JP are trivial to get used to as I believe when touch typists have their hands resting on "home" keys (this is true mainly to QWERTY layout, I am not sure for other layouts but I have a hunch it would not be that much different) they would easily notice where their thumbs rest are very close together on the space bar. So realistically in other words a big wide space bar is not really needed unless one intends to hit the space bar (and/or other keys on the bottom row for that matter) by "tucking" their thumbs inwards (towards the palm) so to speak. Realistically from my personal point of view I could not see myself hitting the keys on the bottom row of my keyboards with my thumb more apart from just dedicating my thumbs for hitting mainly the space bar alone. Your (and everyone else's) mileage may vary for needing wide space bars but for me I just do not see what is the fuss is with people moaning about how narrow the space bars found on JIS keyboards are in general.

Whilst on the topic of JIS keyboards, the Japanese people also use keyboards with "split" sort of space bar. They call it thumb shift layout I think. Imagine a regular wide space bar being cut into at least two or three pieces from the middle outwards and that is where you get a similar sort of layout. From what I can see these split space bar should not hinder the touch typist all that much in theory as again with small space bar found on JIS keyboards in general it is a matter of enforcing the hands on "home" row keys and really, leaving the thumbs mainly for hitting the space bar. I have never typed on those thumb shift layout but again I would not believe it would be a nightmare to get used to the slightly varied space bar design. The design otherwise is probably if anything a little more narrower than HHKB JP's space bar for instance.

In short, the narrower the space bar is in general as long as it is placed in the centre of where all the home row keys are positioned for that matter should be a trivial issue in my opinion. If lets say the space bar is both narrow and is off centre of where the home row keys are positioned, that may start affecting one's typing experience in general.

I mean, Qwerty is special, it's the only layout which has homerow as not the most commonly used row. Having a spacebar in the middle would be uncomfortable, as my hands rest without my thumb stretching out. It really doesn't make sense to rest your fingers on the homerow in Qwerty, as you won't be using it as much as the upper row, which is probably why I hear about people resting QWEF JIOP rather than the supposedly better ASDF HJKL. I use Dvorak, anyways, and it makes sense to keep the fingers where they are supposed to be on Qwerty, as it was designed correctly.

Definitely agreed with the lack of need for a wide spacebar. Your thumbs should never shift more than a centimeter or so, and accounting for random bouncing, I hit the spacebar within the same key nearly every time. I would personally never need larger than a 2x, or maybe 3x for the comfort.  It would be nice if the layout of the MiniLa could be changed so that the left Fn was spacebar while the other Fn and spacebar were changed into other functions, but I'm not sure how far software could go in that case.

[tuxsavvy]

The narrowest space bar that I have used (and still using at times) is a non-Western keyboard but a JIS keyboard. I am sure there are plenty of people whom would love to point out how small/tiny/puny the HHKB JP space bar is however I have had no issues getting used to the small space bar within first few hours of usage. From what I can see HHKB JP's space bar is a little more narrower than the regular JIS keyboard and they only trimmed the space bar length was only because to include  few more keys on the bottom for mainly Japanese input but also to retain how otherwise the keyboard were to be laid out had it been an ISO/ANSI/etc layout.

Almost all the time I hit the space bar with my right thumb regardless of which keyboard I use, if I were to try and hit the space bar with my left thumb it would instantly slow my typing speeds down because I need to pay attention to force my left thumb for hitting space bar more than my right. Otherwise the narrow space bar found on instance with JIS keyboard or even HHKB JP are trivial to get used to as I believe when touch typists have their hands resting on "home" keys (this is true mainly to QWERTY layout, I am not sure for other layouts but I have a hunch it would not be that much different) they would easily notice where their thumbs rest are very close together on the space bar. So realistically in other words a big wide space bar is not really needed unless one intends to hit the space bar (and/or other keys on the bottom row for that matter) by "tucking" their thumbs inwards (towards the palm) so to speak. Realistically from my personal point of view I could not see myself hitting the keys on the bottom row of my keyboards with my thumb more apart from just dedicating my thumbs for hitting mainly the space bar alone. Your (and everyone else's) mileage may vary for needing wide space bars but for me I just do not see what is the fuss is with people moaning about how narrow the space bars found on JIS keyboards are in general.

Whilst on the topic of JIS keyboards, the Japanese people also use keyboards with "split" sort of space bar. They call it thumb shift layout I think. Imagine a regular wide space bar being cut into at least two or three pieces from the middle outwards and that is where you get a similar sort of layout. From what I can see these split space bar should not hinder the touch typist all that much in theory as again with small space bar found on JIS keyboards in general it is a matter of enforcing the hands on "home" row keys and really, leaving the thumbs mainly for hitting the space bar. I have never typed on those thumb shift layout but again I would not believe it would be a nightmare to get used to the slightly varied space bar design. The design otherwise is probably if anything a little more narrower than HHKB JP's space bar for instance.

In short, the narrower the space bar is in general as long as it is placed in the centre of where all the home row keys are positioned for that matter should be a trivial issue in my opinion. If lets say the space bar is both narrow and is off centre of where the home row keys are positioned, that may start affecting one's typing experience in general.

I mean, Qwerty is special, it's the only layout which has homerow as not the most commonly used row. Having a spacebar in the middle would be uncomfortable, as my hands rest without my thumb stretching out. It really doesn't make sense to rest your fingers on the homerow in Qwerty, as you won't be using it as much as the upper row, which is probably why I hear about people resting QWEF JIOP rather than the supposedly better ASDF HJKL. I use Dvorak, anyways, and it makes sense to keep the fingers where they are supposed to be on Qwerty, as it was designed correctly.

Definitely agreed with the lack of need for a wide spacebar. Your thumbs should never shift more than a centimeter or so, and accounting for random bouncing, I hit the spacebar within the same key nearly every time. I would personally never need larger than a 2x, or maybe 3x for the comfort.  It would be nice if the layout of the MiniLa could be changed so that the left Fn was spacebar while the other Fn and spacebar were changed into other functions, but I'm not sure how far software could go in that case.

So for instance DVORAK layout one would probably need the space bar on the bottom row to be not off centre but on the side? rather off to one side? That would be a little weird if the case was to do with split keyboards and where the space bar is off more close to one side.

Forgive me if I sound a little stupid I have been using QWERTY layout for quite a long time. To have a space bar off to sort of one side it would mean that depending on which thumb would be able to easily hit it would basically get the upper advantage so to speak. Compared to the other thumb which may need a little more movement just to be able to hit the same space bar as the thumb on the other hand. If that were the case then in theory the standard QWERTY layout with the space bar in the middle would probably be the perfect sort of balance for both thumbs be able to hit the space bar without that much movement for the thumbs alone.

[Tony]

Keyboard manufacturers don't know which thumb you will use to press Space bar, so the Space bar should be long enough for both thumbs.

For shorter Space bar, a Filco minila is supposed to have the shortest.

[Puddsy]

Keyboard manufacturers don't know which thumb you will use to press Space bar, so the Space bar should be long enough for both thumbs.

For shorter Space bar, a Filco minila is supposed to have the shortest.

Show Image

+1 for miniLA

My absolute favorite.

[Pacifist]

Keyboard manufacturers don't know which thumb you will use to press Space bar, so the Space bar should be long enough for both thumbs.

For shorter Space bar, a Filco minila is supposed to have the shortest.

Show Image

why that long spacebar?

[Linkbane]

The narrowest space bar that I have used (and still using at times) is a non-Western keyboard but a JIS keyboard. I am sure there are plenty of people whom would love to point out how small/tiny/puny the HHKB JP space bar is however I have had no issues getting used to the small space bar within first few hours of usage. From what I can see HHKB JP's space bar is a little more narrower than the regular JIS keyboard and they only trimmed the space bar length was only because to include  few more keys on the bottom for mainly Japanese input but also to retain how otherwise the keyboard were to be laid out had it been an ISO/ANSI/etc layout.

Almost all the time I hit the space bar with my right thumb regardless of which keyboard I use, if I were to try and hit the space bar with my left thumb it would instantly slow my typing speeds down because I need to pay attention to force my left thumb for hitting space bar more than my right. Otherwise the narrow space bar found on instance with JIS keyboard or even HHKB JP are trivial to get used to as I believe when touch typists have their hands resting on "home" keys (this is true mainly to QWERTY layout, I am not sure for other layouts but I have a hunch it would not be that much different) they would easily notice where their thumbs rest are very close together on the space bar. So realistically in other words a big wide space bar is not really needed unless one intends to hit the space bar (and/or other keys on the bottom row for that matter) by "tucking" their thumbs inwards (towards the palm) so to speak. Realistically from my personal point of view I could not see myself hitting the keys on the bottom row of my keyboards with my thumb more apart from just dedicating my thumbs for hitting mainly the space bar alone. Your (and everyone else's) mileage may vary for needing wide space bars but for me I just do not see what is the fuss is with people moaning about how narrow the space bars found on JIS keyboards are in general.

Whilst on the topic of JIS keyboards, the Japanese people also use keyboards with "split" sort of space bar. They call it thumb shift layout I think. Imagine a regular wide space bar being cut into at least two or three pieces from the middle outwards and that is where you get a similar sort of layout. From what I can see these split space bar should not hinder the touch typist all that much in theory as again with small space bar found on JIS keyboards in general it is a matter of enforcing the hands on "home" row keys and really, leaving the thumbs mainly for hitting the space bar. I have never typed on those thumb shift layout but again I would not believe it would be a nightmare to get used to the slightly varied space bar design. The design otherwise is probably if anything a little more narrower than HHKB JP's space bar for instance.

In short, the narrower the space bar is in general as long as it is placed in the centre of where all the home row keys are positioned for that matter should be a trivial issue in my opinion. If lets say the space bar is both narrow and is off centre of where the home row keys are positioned, that may start affecting one's typing experience in general.

I mean, Qwerty is special, it's the only layout which has homerow as not the most commonly used row. Having a spacebar in the middle would be uncomfortable, as my hands rest without my thumb stretching out. It really doesn't make sense to rest your fingers on the homerow in Qwerty, as you won't be using it as much as the upper row, which is probably why I hear about people resting QWEF JIOP rather than the supposedly better ASDF HJKL. I use Dvorak, anyways, and it makes sense to keep the fingers where they are supposed to be on Qwerty, as it was designed correctly.

Definitely agreed with the lack of need for a wide spacebar. Your thumbs should never shift more than a centimeter or so, and accounting for random bouncing, I hit the spacebar within the same key nearly every time. I would personally never need larger than a 2x, or maybe 3x for the comfort.  It would be nice if the layout of the MiniLa could be changed so that the left Fn was spacebar while the other Fn and spacebar were changed into other functions, but I'm not sure how far software could go in that case.

So for instance DVORAK layout one would probably need the space bar on the bottom row to be not off centre but on the side? rather off to one side? That would be a little weird if the case was to do with split keyboards and where the space bar is off more close to one side.

Forgive me if I sound a little stupid I have been using QWERTY layout for quite a long time. To have a space bar off to sort of one side it would mean that depending on which thumb would be able to easily hit it would basically get the upper advantage so to speak. Compared to the other thumb which may need a little more movement just to be able to hit the same space bar as the thumb on the other hand. If that were the case then in theory the standard QWERTY layout with the space bar in the middle would probably be the perfect sort of balance for both thumbs be able to hit the space bar without that much movement for the thumbs alone.

I referenced the MiniLa, because that seems like an optimal layout. Whether you use one or both thumbs, you can program it to what you wish. My only issue is that the central spacebar can't be remapped. True it's more universal to have a central spacebar, but keyboards are, to me, all about optimization and little changes at high price points.

And I don't want to move my thumb at all to hit the spacebar. It's by far the most frequent key, hand movement should be zero or the layout's faulty.

[tuxsavvy]

The narrowest space bar that I have used (and still using at times) is a non-Western keyboard but a JIS keyboard. I am sure there are plenty of people whom would love to point out how small/tiny/puny the HHKB JP space bar is however I have had no issues getting used to the small space bar within first few hours of usage. From what I can see HHKB JP's space bar is a little more narrower than the regular JIS keyboard and they only trimmed the space bar length was only because to include  few more keys on the bottom for mainly Japanese input but also to retain how otherwise the keyboard were to be laid out had it been an ISO/ANSI/etc layout.

Almost all the time I hit the space bar with my right thumb regardless of which keyboard I use, if I were to try and hit the space bar with my left thumb it would instantly slow my typing speeds down because I need to pay attention to force my left thumb for hitting space bar more than my right. Otherwise the narrow space bar found on instance with JIS keyboard or even HHKB JP are trivial to get used to as I believe when touch typists have their hands resting on "home" keys (this is true mainly to QWERTY layout, I am not sure for other layouts but I have a hunch it would not be that much different) they would easily notice where their thumbs rest are very close together on the space bar. So realistically in other words a big wide space bar is not really needed unless one intends to hit the space bar (and/or other keys on the bottom row for that matter) by "tucking" their thumbs inwards (towards the palm) so to speak. Realistically from my personal point of view I could not see myself hitting the keys on the bottom row of my keyboards with my thumb more apart from just dedicating my thumbs for hitting mainly the space bar alone. Your (and everyone else's) mileage may vary for needing wide space bars but for me I just do not see what is the fuss is with people moaning about how narrow the space bars found on JIS keyboards are in general.

Whilst on the topic of JIS keyboards, the Japanese people also use keyboards with "split" sort of space bar. They call it thumb shift layout I think. Imagine a regular wide space bar being cut into at least two or three pieces from the middle outwards and that is where you get a similar sort of layout. From what I can see these split space bar should not hinder the touch typist all that much in theory as again with small space bar found on JIS keyboards in general it is a matter of enforcing the hands on "home" row keys and really, leaving the thumbs mainly for hitting the space bar. I have never typed on those thumb shift layout but again I would not believe it would be a nightmare to get used to the slightly varied space bar design. The design otherwise is probably if anything a little more narrower than HHKB JP's space bar for instance.

In short, the narrower the space bar is in general as long as it is placed in the centre of where all the home row keys are positioned for that matter should be a trivial issue in my opinion. If lets say the space bar is both narrow and is off centre of where the home row keys are positioned, that may start affecting one's typing experience in general.

I mean, Qwerty is special, it's the only layout which has homerow as not the most commonly used row. Having a spacebar in the middle would be uncomfortable, as my hands rest without my thumb stretching out. It really doesn't make sense to rest your fingers on the homerow in Qwerty, as you won't be using it as much as the upper row, which is probably why I hear about people resting QWEF JIOP rather than the supposedly better ASDF HJKL. I use Dvorak, anyways, and it makes sense to keep the fingers where they are supposed to be on Qwerty, as it was designed correctly.

Definitely agreed with the lack of need for a wide spacebar. Your thumbs should never shift more than a centimeter or so, and accounting for random bouncing, I hit the spacebar within the same key nearly every time. I would personally never need larger than a 2x, or maybe 3x for the comfort.  It would be nice if the layout of the MiniLa could be changed so that the left Fn was spacebar while the other Fn and spacebar were changed into other functions, but I'm not sure how far software could go in that case.

So for instance DVORAK layout one would probably need the space bar on the bottom row to be not off centre but on the side? rather off to one side? That would be a little weird if the case was to do with split keyboards and where the space bar is off more close to one side.

Forgive me if I sound a little stupid I have been using QWERTY layout for quite a long time. To have a space bar off to sort of one side it would mean that depending on which thumb would be able to easily hit it would basically get the upper advantage so to speak. Compared to the other thumb which may need a little more movement just to be able to hit the same space bar as the thumb on the other hand. If that were the case then in theory the standard QWERTY layout with the space bar in the middle would probably be the perfect sort of balance for both thumbs be able to hit the space bar without that much movement for the thumbs alone.

I referenced the MiniLa, because that seems like an optimal layout. Whether you use one or both thumbs, you can program it to what you wish. My only issue is that the central spacebar can't be remapped. True it's more universal to have a central spacebar, but keyboards are, to me, all about optimization and little changes at high price points.

And I don't want to move my thumb at all to hit the spacebar. It's by far the most frequent key, hand movement should be zero or the layout's faulty.

Ahh I sort of get what you mean.. I think. Though I have seen very few keyboards with space bar that is off centre, unless if one talks about thumb shift layout (or rather a more customised variant at that).

[spremino]

Forgive me if I sound a little stupid I have been using QWERTY layout for quite a long time. To have a space bar off to sort of one side it would mean that depending on which thumb would be able to easily hit it would basically get the upper advantage so to speak.

I don't understand clearly what you mean... However, Dvorak typists are more likely to always press the space bar with their left hand, because their left hand stands almost still. As a Dvorak typist, a space bar as wide as "CV" + half "B" would be enough for every use case (taking into account different shapes of hands). On the other hand, on a MiniLa, a Dvorak typist would have to use his right hand like a Qwerty typist would.

It seems that a split space bar would be best design choice for everybody.

[Tony]

Minila and all keyboards are designed so that the Space bar are equally accessible to either left or right hand with equal distance.

Most young people now use the left thumb to press space bar exclusively, since their right hands have to use the mouse simultaneously in FPS games.

Split space bar is only implemented in split keyboards. For normal keyboards, it would be cheaper and faster to manufacture the big Space bar that we have now.

[yasuo]

The space bar on Western keyboards seems too wide, and I wonder how narrow it could be while still being comfortable to use for everybody.

Since I press it with my left hand, a space bar as wide as the CVB keys would be enough. What about you, especially if you press it with the right hand?

Thanks.

yeah, same i use with my left hand too,i think arround VB enough
maybe your mean like ergo keyboard ibm m15/cherry mx5000

[spremino]

yeah, same i use with my left hand too,i think arround VB enough
maybe your mean like ergo keyboard ibm m15/cherry mx5000

Nope. I'm thinking of a standard keyboard with a split space bar. Such a keyboard would offer users one more modifier key  for their own purposes and in an comfortable position, but they could use both sides as space bar.

Minila and all keyboards are designed so that the Space bar are equally accessible to either left or right hand with equal distance.

If that was a design goal, then they missed it: the space bar should be centered under the "B" key to be equally accessible.

Split space bar is only implemented in split keyboards. For normal keyboards, it would be cheaper and faster to manufacture the big Space bar that we have now.

Cheaper and faster, sure... That's the reason the average quality of keyboards worsens as years go by.

Anyway, as explained above, I was thinking of a split space bar where each side could be remapped to something else.

[spremino]

Whilst on the topic of JIS keyboards, the Japanese people also use keyboards with "split" sort of space bar. They call it thumb shift layout I think. Imagine a regular wide space bar being cut into at least two or three pieces from the middle outwards and that is where you get a similar sort of layout.

The Japanese have access to the best keyboards with the best layouts, it seems. It would be awesome to have here keyboards with those layouts of either 91 (tenkeyless) or 108 (full) keys.

[yasuo]

This

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[spremino]

This

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Yes, thanks. Albeit not all the modifiers on the bottom seem easy to touch-type, since they don't follow the staggering of the keys above, but I could be wrong here. Other layouts from the same thread look more palatable, though, thus it seems like there is not a shared rationale in that regard (maybe those layouts are just mirroring existing ones).

Maybe it's time to design my own layout and find a company to manufacture it.

[Candyflip]

This

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More Complete

This is colemak? It looks like will suit me more than the standard qwerty but the 'getting used to' part is a no-go for me

[spremino]

This

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This is colemak? It looks like will suit me more than the standard qwerty but the 'getting used to' part is a no-go for me

I'm sure you could have it as Qwerty or Dvorak, too.

[Candyflip]

This

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More Complete

This is colemak? It looks like will suit me more than the standard qwerty but the 'getting used to' part is a no-go for me

I'm sure you could have it as Qwerty or Dvorak, too.

I wasn't talking only for the space bar but for the whole layout, any easy to get MX boards have this?

[yasuo]

Yes, thanks. Albeit not all the modifiers on the bottom seem easy to touch-type, since they don't follow the staggering of the keys above, but I could be wrong here. Other layouts from the same thread look more palatable, though, thus it seems like there is not a shared rationale in that regard (maybe those layouts are just mirroring existing ones).

Maybe it's time to design my own layout and find a company to manufacture it.

miroring=symmetrical

This is colemak? It looks like will suit me more than the standard qwerty but the 'getting used to' part is a no-go for me

yep,modern qwerty

I'm sure you could have it as Qwerty or Dvorak, too.

actually,that layout, design of webwit
i ever see qwerty too but no dvorak

[spremino]

I wasn't talking only for the space bar but for the whole layout, any easy to get MX boards have this?

I suppose that that thread is for people who don't care about having a standard layout.

[Tony]

I wasn't talking only for the space bar but for the whole layout, any easy to get MX boards have this?

Alternative layouts are software, you can type Colemak/Dvorak without changing the keycaps. All alternative layout typists are touch typists, so legends don't matter.

You can learn alternative layout one or two keys at a time, so you touch type right from the beginning.

[Candyflip]

I wasn't talking only for the space bar but for the whole layout, any easy to get MX boards have this?

Alternative layouts are software, you can type Colemak/Dvorak without changing the keycaps. All alternative layout typists are touch typists, so legends don't matter.

You can learn alternative layout one or two keys at a time, so you touch type right from the beginning.

My bad, I thought the backspace key and the whole bottom row from the pic are on every colemak layout. I am quite used to touch type but I use my left thumb for space, and to un-learn things for me is way harder than learn new stuff.

[Tony]

My bad, I thought the backspace key and the whole bottom row from the pic are on every colemak layout. I am quite used to touch type but I use my left thumb for space, and to un-learn things for me is way harder than learn new stuff.

You are quite right. Learning alternative layout is very hard during the first three weeks. If you can survive after such long torture, you have got a glorious future ahead.

For anyone who don't know what Colemak is, here is a picture. Notice that all ten most frequent keys are put on the homerow for ergonomic typing.



As a Colemak typist, I suppose this layout is 98% optimized from Qwerty. Other alternative layouts (Dvorak, Carpalx, Arensito, Workman, Bepo) is similarly optimized in different ways, so you can choose any of them.

[Linkbane]

I wasn't talking only for the space bar but for the whole layout, any easy to get MX boards have this?

Alternative layouts are software, you can type Colemak/Dvorak without changing the keycaps. All alternative layout typists are touch typists, so legends don't matter.

You can learn alternative layout one or two keys at a time, so you touch type right from the beginning.

My bad, I thought the backspace key and the whole bottom row from the pic are on every colemak layout. I am quite used to touch type but I use my left thumb for space, and to un-learn things for me is way harder than learn new stuff.

By the way, left thumb is supposed to be used for space in nearly every layout, I'm pretty sure Colemak included. It's definitely used in Dvorak.

[tuxsavvy]

Forgive me if I sound a little stupid I have been using QWERTY layout for quite a long time. To have a space bar off to sort of one side it would mean that depending on which thumb would be able to easily hit it would basically get the upper advantage so to speak.

I don't understand clearly what you mean... However, Dvorak typists are more likely to always press the space bar with their left hand, because their left hand stands almost still. As a Dvorak typist, a space bar as wide as "CV" + half "B" would be enough for every use case (taking into account different shapes of hands). On the other hand, on a MiniLa, a Dvorak typist would have to use his right hand like a Qwerty typist would.

It seems that a split space bar would be best design choice for everybody.

I was referring to what Linkbane said about:

Having a spacebar in the middle would be uncomfortable, as my hands rest without my thumb stretching out. It really doesn't make sense to rest your fingers on the homerow in Qwerty, as you won't be using it as much as the upper row, which is probably why I hear about people resting QWEF JIOP rather than the supposedly better ASDF HJKL. I use Dvorak, anyways, and it makes sense to keep the fingers where they are supposed to be on Qwerty, as it was designed correctly.

Particularly at the points in bold. It almost sounded like to me that had the spacebar been off centre of the keyboard it would be more comfortable for a non-QWERTY typist. Most keyboards are made with spacebars in the middle of the bottom row, the only exceptions are maybe those thumb shift input or custom made thumb shift input, or even those split ergonomic keyboards (like IBM M15).

I somewhat don't believe DVORAK keyboard would have their space bar off the centre on the bottom row of the keyboard but I wouldn't know. However thinking of it, it still doesn't make sense how it would be uncomfortable, is this only restricted to certain people? certan DVORAK users? or just DVORAK users? maybe even only restricted to people with big hands and/or long fingers? I guess by you saying that you are a DVORAK user and you don't seem to suffer the same issue as Linkbane does with the notion of "having space bar in the middle would be uncomfortable" could only mean that it is restricted to certain people, maybe regardless of whichever keyboard layout they use.

[Tony]

There is a topic that discuss about which thumb we should use to press space, whether to use both thumbs alternatively (which thumb depends on which character ends the last word, i.e. using the opposite thumb to the last key typed).

Qwerty is heavily leans to the left hand (15%) with both E and T on the left hand, so Qwerty users are encouraged to use the right thumb to alleviate some workload.

Dvorak/Colemak leans to the right hand (Dvorak 15%, Colemak 6%), so Dvorak/Colemak users are encouraged to use the left thumb.

[Linkbane]

Forgive me if I sound a little stupid I have been using QWERTY layout for quite a long time. To have a space bar off to sort of one side it would mean that depending on which thumb would be able to easily hit it would basically get the upper advantage so to speak.

I don't understand clearly what you mean... However, Dvorak typists are more likely to always press the space bar with their left hand, because their left hand stands almost still. As a Dvorak typist, a space bar as wide as "CV" + half "B" would be enough for every use case (taking into account different shapes of hands). On the other hand, on a MiniLa, a Dvorak typist would have to use his right hand like a Qwerty typist would.

It seems that a split space bar would be best design choice for everybody.

I was referring to what Linkbane said about:

Having a spacebar in the middle would be uncomfortable, as my hands rest without my thumb stretching out. It really doesn't make sense to rest your fingers on the homerow in Qwerty, as you won't be using it as much as the upper row, which is probably why I hear about people resting QWEF JIOP rather than the supposedly better ASDF HJKL. I use Dvorak, anyways, and it makes sense to keep the fingers where they are supposed to be on Qwerty, as it was designed correctly.

Particularly at the points in bold. It almost sounded like to me that had the spacebar been off centre of the keyboard it would be more comfortable for a non-QWERTY typist. Most keyboards are made with spacebars in the middle of the bottom row, the only exceptions are maybe those thumb shift input or custom made thumb shift input, or even those split ergonomic keyboards (like IBM M15).

I somewhat don't believe DVORAK keyboard would have their space bar off the centre on the bottom row of the keyboard but I wouldn't know. However thinking of it, it still doesn't make sense how it would be uncomfortable, is this only restricted to certain people? certan DVORAK users? or just DVORAK users? maybe even only restricted to people with big hands and/or long fingers? I guess by you saying that you are a DVORAK user and you don't seem to suffer the same issue as Linkbane does with the notion of "having space bar in the middle would be uncomfortable" could only mean that it is restricted to certain people, maybe regardless of whichever keyboard layout they use.

By my words I meant that having a very small spacebar only in the middle would be uncomfortable. I wouldn't mind the Colemak layout showed earlier, so long as the space/delete were reversed. I probably wouldn't use my right thumb much though, as it has to reach to the bottom row and it becomes exceedingly awkward to keep the hand on in that case.

Also, just a little thing, Dvorak is not all capitalized, unless you wish to refer to it by DSK.

[tuxsavvy]

Forgive me if I sound a little stupid I have been using QWERTY layout for quite a long time. To have a space bar off to sort of one side it would mean that depending on which thumb would be able to easily hit it would basically get the upper advantage so to speak.

I don't understand clearly what you mean... However, Dvorak typists are more likely to always press the space bar with their left hand, because their left hand stands almost still. As a Dvorak typist, a space bar as wide as "CV" + half "B" would be enough for every use case (taking into account different shapes of hands). On the other hand, on a MiniLa, a Dvorak typist would have to use his right hand like a Qwerty typist would.

It seems that a split space bar would be best design choice for everybody.

I was referring to what Linkbane said about:

Having a spacebar in the middle would be uncomfortable, as my hands rest without my thumb stretching out. It really doesn't make sense to rest your fingers on the homerow in Qwerty, as you won't be using it as much as the upper row, which is probably why I hear about people resting QWEF JIOP rather than the supposedly better ASDF HJKL. I use Dvorak, anyways, and it makes sense to keep the fingers where they are supposed to be on Qwerty, as it was designed correctly.

Particularly at the points in bold. It almost sounded like to me that had the spacebar been off centre of the keyboard it would be more comfortable for a non-QWERTY typist. Most keyboards are made with spacebars in the middle of the bottom row, the only exceptions are maybe those thumb shift input or custom made thumb shift input, or even those split ergonomic keyboards (like IBM M15).

I somewhat don't believe DVORAK keyboard would have their space bar off the centre on the bottom row of the keyboard but I wouldn't know. However thinking of it, it still doesn't make sense how it would be uncomfortable, is this only restricted to certain people? certan DVORAK users? or just DVORAK users? maybe even only restricted to people with big hands and/or long fingers? I guess by you saying that you are a DVORAK user and you don't seem to suffer the same issue as Linkbane does with the notion of "having space bar in the middle would be uncomfortable" could only mean that it is restricted to certain people, maybe regardless of whichever keyboard layout they use.

By my words I meant that having a very small spacebar only in the middle would be uncomfortable. I wouldn't mind the Colemak layout showed earlier, so long as the space/delete were reversed. I probably wouldn't use my right thumb much though, as it has to reach to the bottom row and it becomes exceedingly awkward to keep the hand on in that case.

Also, just a little thing, Dvorak is not all capitalized, unless you wish to refer to it by DSK.

Ahh now that is starting to make more sense. Though in cases of where I suppose HHKB JP or even miniLA where the space bars look much smaller than your average keyboard's space bars. It should still be usable right? If so then yeah it wouldn't make much sense to peddle the idea of having smaller than already small space bars found on such keyboards as mentioned above.

Yeah you are quite right on Dvorak. I guess it is a bit of a habit considering how the QWERTY are laid out as it is on the keyboard. On the Dvorak layout I cannot see such letters are not organised as it QWERTY is. I guess wrong habits heh. Apologies.

There is a topic that discuss about which thumb we should use to press space, whether to use both thumbs alternatively (which thumb depends on which character ends the last word, i.e. using the opposite thumb to the last key typed).

Qwerty is heavily leans to the left hand (15%) with both E and T on the left hand, so Qwerty users are encouraged to use the right thumb to alleviate some workload.

Dvorak/Colemak leans to the right hand (Dvorak 15%, Colemak 6%), so Dvorak/Colemak users are encouraged to use the left thumb.

In a bid to sort of find out why some people moan about small space bars, the space bars found certain keyboards in either case are not that ridiculously small (in which neither the left nor right thumb can sort of co-exist on the same bar) are really of a trivial issue. I still constantly muse at the thoughts of how others would just laugh at small space bars when if one were to place their hands normally like a touch typist would the could easily see that both of their thumbs are within reach of the spacebar. It is not small that only one thumb could fit on it neither is the fact that the space bar is off-centre which makes it hard for one particular hand to reach. Obviously most keyboard manufacturers of such type of keyboards are sane enough to have contemplated of making no matter how small the space bar is, still wide enough so that both thumbs of a person's hands could still reach it.

Prior to what you wrote about how QWERTY users are encouraged to use their right thumb more and all. I actually never realised that I was sort of on the right track for that matter. In fact even now if I were to try and forcibly use my left thumb more (as in to strictly hit the space bar only and not the right thumb). I find it hard (and will most likely as a result slow down my overall typing speed if tested). I sort of thought that by hitting the spacebar more with my right thumb was mainly due to one's hand dominance.

[Linkbane]

In a bid to sort of find out why some people moan about small space bars, the space bars found certain keyboards in either case are not that ridiculously small (in which neither the left nor right thumb can sort of co-exist on the same bar) are really of a trivial issue. I still constantly muse at the thoughts of how others would just laugh at small space bars when if one were to place their hands normally like a touch typist would the could easily see that both of their thumbs are within reach of the spacebar. It is not small that only one thumb could fit on it neither is the fact that the space bar is off-centre which makes it hard for one particular hand to reach. Obviously most keyboard manufacturers of such type of keyboards are sane enough to have contemplated of making no matter how small the space bar is, still wide enough so that both thumbs of a person's hands could still reach it.

Prior to what you wrote about how QWERTY users are encouraged to use their right thumb more and all. I actually never realised that I was sort of on the right track for that matter. In fact even now if I were to try and forcibly use my left thumb more (as in to strictly hit the space bar only and not the right thumb). I find it hard (and will most likely as a result slow down my overall typing speed if tested). I sort of thought that by hitting the spacebar more with my right thumb was mainly due to one's hand dominance.

Heh, it was something that I explored a lot while I was learning to type. While I was able to switch over to the right thumb if it was absolutely necessary (at more moderate speeds), it wasn't very comfortable, despite my attempts to force myself to do it. I ended up with this positioning of the least movement, with no right thumb use whatsoever. And don't worry about my pedanticism, that's all it is.

For QWERTY, I can see your point. Seeing how much the left hand is used, it would make sense for the right hand to use the spacebar so that it is not further strained. I think that was how I typed when I was a moderate typist in the old layout. If you ever do switch layouts, though, try and see which hand spacebar fits you the most!

[Tony]

Ideally there should two split space bars, and you can re-assign a space bar to be another backspace or whatever you can think of.

[tuxsavvy]

In a bid to sort of find out why some people moan about small space bars, the space bars found certain keyboards in either case are not that ridiculously small (in which neither the left nor right thumb can sort of co-exist on the same bar) are really of a trivial issue. I still constantly muse at the thoughts of how others would just laugh at small space bars when if one were to place their hands normally like a touch typist would the could easily see that both of their thumbs are within reach of the spacebar. It is not small that only one thumb could fit on it neither is the fact that the space bar is off-centre which makes it hard for one particular hand to reach. Obviously most keyboard manufacturers of such type of keyboards are sane enough to have contemplated of making no matter how small the space bar is, still wide enough so that both thumbs of a person's hands could still reach it.

Prior to what you wrote about how QWERTY users are encouraged to use their right thumb more and all. I actually never realised that I was sort of on the right track for that matter. In fact even now if I were to try and forcibly use my left thumb more (as in to strictly hit the space bar only and not the right thumb). I find it hard (and will most likely as a result slow down my overall typing speed if tested). I sort of thought that by hitting the spacebar more with my right thumb was mainly due to one's hand dominance.

Heh, it was something that I explored a lot while I was learning to type. While I was able to switch over to the right thumb if it was absolutely necessary (at more moderate speeds), it wasn't very comfortable, despite my attempts to force myself to do it. I ended up with this positioning of the least movement, with no right thumb use whatsoever. And don't worry about my pedanticism, that's all it is.

For QWERTY, I can see your point. Seeing how much the left hand is used, it would make sense for the right hand to use the spacebar so that it is not further strained. I think that was how I typed when I was a moderate typist in the old layout. If you ever do switch layouts, though, try and see which hand spacebar fits you the most!

Ahh I was merely curious. I have never tried Dvorak, or any other fancy layouts.

About the QWERTY layout yeah, I guess that is pretty true. Again prior to what Tony posted as of recently apart from trying to use my southpaw more (and failing badly at times), I have also decided when people mention about using left thumb for hitting the space bar in a bid to reignite ambidexterity (for odd reasons). Whilst it is somewhat hard to try and force my left thumb to hit the space bar I need to remind myself more to try and hit it regardless. I guess now if I were to take on Dvorak layout or even Colemak for instance learning to strike the space bar with my left thumb would also be somewhat a must.

Thanks for the suggestion of switching layouts but I am already struggling to learn the JIS layout on my keyboard. I basically remapped my keys as per what it is as labelled on my keyboard. The transition has been awfully slow, if I were to switch to some other layout (which I may someday) I think that will be even more nightmare than already learning JIS layout.

Ideally there should two split space bars, and you can re-assign a space bar to be another backspace or whatever you can think of.

Hehe that would be like what the thumb shift input that the Japanese keyboard has (not all however). Regardless, that is also fairly true looking at it. QWERTY ideally prefers right thumb for striking the space bar whilst Dvorak for instance prefers left thumb. That would still leave either thumb free in general. Instead of say moving right hand (on QWERTY) to hit the backspace and then using maybe ring finger), it might be better to split the space bar more so that the unused thumb takes advantage of the unused space. However I guess that would require one to basically learn the keyboard's specific quirks (much like how HHKB is with left Control key in place of where it used to be Caps Lock).

Then again the idea overall is still quite nice in my opinion, it prevents the need for one to move their hands a bit away just to strike the backspace key. Maybe exceptionally handy for those that makes mistakes fairly often! ) (In saying so that almost fits me ironically).

[Linkbane]

Hah, a Ctrl+Delete key would be really quite nice. I suppose that I don't mind the nine-finger layout, it allows more freedom and comfort of the hands. Maybe the Dox really is the future.

[yasuo]

@tuxsavvy
You ever try this...?

[tuxsavvy]

@tuxsavvy
You ever try this...?

Show Image

I was (and somewhat still am right now) interested in that keyboard. However I must first replace my mouse first (with probably a wacom tablet) then ascertain if I really need that keyboard. I'll happily admit that you managed to remind me and to sort of rub salt in my wounds.  :p

So far I must admit that typing on my HHKB already feels very comfortable as it is. To go the extra step right now without changing pointing hardware to me is sort of like overboard and being heavily biased on keyboard upgrades.

I believe there are already two owners of that keyboard you mentioned. I don't know what are their handles on the forum (probably the same?). They are GMang and HaaTa if I remember correctly for having that keyboard. I met them through IRC actually.

[Oobly]

As long as the spacebar is positioned where the thumb you use it for falls naturally, it doesn't matter how large it is. I use right thumb on a normal QWERTY board and I suspect a 2x key would be large enough for me (since I tend to float my hands around a lot and don't touch type), and 1.5x for many touch typers.

I really like to use the thumbs for more, though (they are after all the most dextrous and strongest "fingers"), and love having thumb clusters on my DIY ergo board. I use a 1x key for space, but also use my right thumb for Enter, Ctrl and Alt. Left handles Shift, Layer, Backspace and Tab.

The JP variant of HHKB Pro appeals to me, partly because of the small space and positioning of the other keys, but I haven't researched it enough to know if I can remap the other modifiers to do what I want (and I'm sold on vertical column boards, so not sure I want another horizontally staggered one).

[yasuo]

The JP variant of HHKB Pro appeals to me, partly because of the small space and positioning of the other keys, but I haven't researched it enough to know if I can remap the other modifiers to do what I want (and I'm sold on vertical column boards, so not sure I want another horizontally staggered one).

i think hhkb jp for southpaw spacebar though on the middle

[terran5992]

The hhkb jp layout seems ailen to me

[spremino]

As long as the spacebar is positioned where the thumb you use it for falls naturally, it doesn't matter how large it is.

Yes, but different people have different hands and since touch-typing is not formally taught anymore, they may place their hands differently, and as a result their thumbs may rest in different positions. For instance, my thumbs rest right below "V" and "N". What about yours?

[rowdy]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35864.msg1145276#msg1145276

)

[tuxsavvy]

The hhkb jp layout seems ailen to me

It will probably seem less alien when you start using it and not thinking much about it's layout. Some of the extra keys may seem a little awkward at first but it shouldn't take all that forever to get used to it. The space bar issue is really trivial. I have proven once before to hydrospell (via IRC) the results of me averaging on a normal RD keyboard (around 60-65 wpm) and then my very first result that I got when after a few brief hour or so worth of adjusting to the small HHKB JP space bar. I netted 62 wpm on my first go. It was all good until he invited me to typeracer website that also tested all these punctionations in which I was not used to the enforced JIS layout (with double quotes above the number "2" for instance).

Besides, in my humble opinion, HHKB JP gives one plenty more keys to remap away once they are used to the fundamental layout. It also sort of paves way for one willing to learn the JIS layout and may even open up a window of opportunity to learn the thumb shift input. Again it may give one ideas on how to improve a keyboard design (in theory) as opposed to for instance having just a very wide (more than 2x) space bar on the bottom.

Sure, HHKB JP is a marketing thing or PFU is trying to milk the HHKB brand or is a waste/abomination to HHKB Pro2 tribute, yadda yadda yadda. At the end of the day if one wants extra keys to remap without having to use custom firmwares but to also retain the Topre switch as well as HHKB branding, the JP way is probably one of the only ways to go (and again retaining 60% sort of layout). I am not saying this to defend HHKB JP but because I can see there are plenty of uses if one tries to see it from another perspective rather than mocking that it is different.

[spremino]

As far as I can see, the HHKB JP is just a 60% keyboard for people who need to type mostly Japanese. The Japanese language has fewer spaces than Western languages, thus easy access to the space bar does not matter as much. People who wish to type Western languages as well, can opt for keyboards with a wider space bar, like the Japanese Filcos.

[Oobly]

As long as the spacebar is positioned where the thumb you use it for falls naturally, it doesn't matter how large it is.

Yes, but different people have different hands and since touch-typing is not formally taught anymore, they may place their hands differently, and as a result their thumbs may rest in different positions. For instance, my thumbs rest right below "V" and "N". What about yours?

Between V&B and B&N. So I guess a 3x would do for us. I'd still prefer separate remappable keys, though. A pair of 2x keys positioned under V and N would probably suit most people. Remap the one you don't use for space to Shift or Fn.

This is all really a moot point for me, though. Split boards with vertically staggered columns, tenting and angled thumb clusters are where it's at. Anything still based on horizontal stagger is not really worth the effort for me. The only reason I see for an incremental approach to improving keyboard design, is gaining widespread acceptance of the improvements. People often don't like big changes. I do, especially when I see large benefits.