Has the HHKB been the closest to "Endgame" at GH?

[DuckNorris]

Hello all,

  I am curious if my assumptions are correct but following GH for a while now I have seen certain overall better approvals for some keyboards more than other. Endgame meaning the keyboard that ends it all, the perfect one. I know this varies by person but speaking as an overall community which keyboard has come closest to this?As perfection will not be attainable but can come close.

In my opinion it has been the HHKB and at one point it seemed like SSK Model M. I don't even prefer these keyboards but speaking overall are these the most likely ones? Remember , as a overall community approval/preference.

[killyou]

Hello all,

  I am curious if my assumptions are correct but following GH for a while now I have seen certain overall better approvals for some keyboards more than other. Endgame meaning the keyboard that ends it all, the perfect one. I know this varies by person but speaking as an overall community which keyboard has come closest to this?As perfection will not be attainable but can come close.

In my opinion it has been the HHK and at one point it seemed like SSK Model M. I don't even prefer these keyboards but speaking overall are these the most likely ones? Remember , as a overall community approval/preference.

There is a lot of fuss around HHKB and Realforce, especially the first one. I'm looking into 60% boards myself right now but I'm considering Vortex Pok3r, but I can't find one. I would prefer it with Topre instead of MX switches though. HHKB is mighty expensive for me and I don't like the layout. Topre switches feel good and no keyboard sounds better than a silenced Topre, like a herd of horses galloping across the grasslands.

[DuckNorris]

Hello all,

  I am curious if my assumptions are correct but following GH for a while now I have seen certain overall better approvals for some keyboards more than other. Endgame meaning the keyboard that ends it all, the perfect one. I know this varies by person but speaking as an overall community which keyboard has come closest to this?As perfection will not be attainable but can come close.

In my opinion it has been the HHK and at one point it seemed like SSK Model M. I don't even prefer these keyboards but speaking overall are these the most likely ones? Remember , as a overall community approval/preference.

There is a lot of fuss around HHKB and Realforce, especially the first one. I'm looking into 60% boards myself right now but I'm considering Vortex Pok3r, but I can't find one. I would prefer it with Topre instead of MX switches though. HHKB is mighty expensive for me and I don't like the layout. Topre switches feel good and no keyboard sounds better than a silenced Topre, like a herd of horses galloping across the grasslands.

Yeah I ordered a RealForce and then going for probably a Leopold fc660c (look that one up it is topre). That is what I mean it has been more fuss about a HHK than any other keyboard here , even if I don't prefer it but as a community I mean. Why I meant the closer one to overall endgame here since I can't recall that much fuss/hype/approval for any other keyboard than maybe a SSK Model M.

[Niomosy]

HHKB would never be end-game for me specifically because of the layout, both in terms of missing keys as well as my lack of interest in the Sun style layout.  People do like them but there's really no end game consensus.

[DuckNorris]

HHKB would never be end-game for me specifically because of the layout, both in terms of missing keys as well as my lack of interest in the Sun style layout.  People do like them but there's really no end game consensus.

Hmm, as I do agree with you and I am a software engineer and spent a lot of time on unix and IDE's and it was not for me the HHK. But wouldn't you say overall atleast it has come the closest for the community? Ofc not for you and I but the keyboard with the most fuss/approval compared to other keyboards.

Maybe a HHK with arrow keys may be endgame? ...hmmmm

[killyou]

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Lite2-Black/dp/B0000U1DJ2

I would buy it only if it had a CTRL key in the right spot. Even if that's a rubber dome.

[Tactile]

HHKB people just seem to be very vocal*. I think the endgame board for most people is probably something they've built - thus each one is a one-off.

I don't think the HHKB would be the most popular endgame. It's 60%, which a lot of people don't like. In addition it has a layout even unique to 60% keyboards - a layout a lot more people don't like. As to the cost, it's just not that out of line. No-one gripes about the cost of a Filco, which is pretty close. A HHKB, or other Topre boards, here in the US, costs about 1.5 the cost of a good off-the-shelf MX board (Leopold, Ducky, WASD, etc.). And yes, IMO, a Topre board is worth 1.5 MX boards.

But, again, I think most endgame boards are one-off which people have built so you don't hear about them so much. Some people search a long time for just the right case and other parts to make their ultimate board.

*Disclaimer: I own two.

[DuckNorris]

HHKB people just seem to be very vocal*. I think the endgame board for most people is probably something they've built - thus each one is a one-off.

I don't think the HHKB would be the most popular endgame. It's 60%, which a lot of people don't like. In addition it has a layout even unique to 60% keyboards - a layout a lot more people don't like. As to the cost, it's just not that out of line. No-one gripes about the cost of a Filco, which is pretty close. A HHKB, or other Topre boards, here in the US, costs about 1.5 the cost of a good off-the-shelf MX board (Leopold, Ducky, WASD, etc.). And yes, IMO, a Topre board is worth 1.5 MX boards.

But, again, I think most endgame boards are one-off which people have built so you don't hear about them so much. Some people search a long time for just the right case and other parts to make their ultimate board.

*Disclaimer: I own two.

That is a very good point and maybe I have mistaken "More Vocal" for more voices haha. Yeah, maybe a lot more people have more custom boards but since they are all unique less people talk about them as a "whole" community. I still wonder if this is the closest though to a "common" endgame keyboard you know?

[zslane]

I feel Tactile is spot on. The HHKB has a very loyal following, but it is a very small following in terms of overall marketshare within the mech keyboard market. There are probably 10x as many Vortex Pokers sold as HHKBs (that figure is pure speculation on my part, but I'm probably not exaggerating too much), so the math alone would suggest that 10x as many Poker users consider that their endgame as HHKB users do.

But then you have to ask, how many users of any particular board even have the notion of "end game" in their heads at all? Maybe HHKB users are the types who buy into that board because they are on an end-game quest, making their population disproportionately high with end-gamers. Who knows?

[Snowdog993]

Hello all,
Endgame meaning the keyboard that ends it all, the perfect one.

I would think this would be YOUR endgame. It's not mine or anyone else to decide for you. Of course I know what I like.

[Polymer]

The OP is talking about at GH..so we can take the community by what it says..

I don't know if one single keyboard gets more hype around it than the HHKB...but I don't know if it becomes the dedicated "the one" keyboard they use permanently for that many users...

I think the closest the HHKB gets is to "the one' is for people have heavily changed it to exactly what they want...like a Novatouch slider+55g cups + silenced or something similar to that...but that isn't a huge number..

SSK Model M never had the hype of a HHKB...they're just hard to find..

[happylacquer]

HHKB gets this reputation because there is nothing objectionable about it even from a high end standpoint. The worst you could say is that you don't like the key layout, which is solvable with a Hasu solderless kit. If you need more keys than the HHKB has, then a Realforce is for you but HHKB "has it all" so to speak.

I have been using my Advantage without break for a while, but I'm itching to get a Type S HHKB or a Bluetooth one.  I have a Pro1, but I can't bring myself to Hasu it. It belongs left in stock condition as a collectible. I plan to sell it, get a Type S, hasu it...

[zslane]

Well, I can't decide which I find more objectionable about the HHKB: the layout or the lack of MX-compatible sliders. I like its 60% footprint and its Topre switches. I don't even mind its sobering price. But even with silencing rings and the Hasu hack, it still suffers from the inability to take any of my beloved spherical keycap sets. That alone makes it dead to me.

[SpAmRaY]

Can we get the title changed? It's HHKB not HHK.

[y11971alex]

Endgame on GH seems pretty inextricably tied to Topre.

On DT, it seems most often beamspring.

[zslane]

Do you mean buckling spring? The IBM Model F/M fetish over there is strong, and those boards are all buckling spring. You can still find old Model Ms and Fs up for sale quite often, and so that is a more realistic end-game goal. Beamspring boards are not only pretty rare, by comparison, they are also useless without a bunch of challenging conversion work, putting them out of end-game contention for most, even among the DT crowd.

One great benefit of having Topre as an end-game switch is that brand new Topre boards are plentiful, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

[y11971alex]

At least XMIT and Seebart share these views 

[rxc92]

Seems to vary a lot! Some people are happy with their HHKBs and have retired mostly from keyboarding. In fact, I used to use a silenced HHKB, which I did enjoy greatly, and in fact would not mind having back. However, due to needs of work, I now use a custom keyboard with Clears, which I have been using for quite some time with satisfaction. I think this is my endgame, barring some new crazy invention.

[happylacquer]

 The topic saying "HHK" is driving me insane too. It's not a SSK....

Actually, I was thinking last night about this thread for some reason while falling asleep, but forgot to was "closest to endgame" and not "cheapest endgame". Which got me thinking about why Unicomp boards are not more often lauded as end game material.

You see so many people here, myself included, who collected old IBM boards and cleaned them up and whatever. But for really a not offensive at all price point you could get a brand new and never used one from them.

I could understand if you are EXTREMELY particular about buckling switch feel in which case maybe you refuse to use anything but an IBM branded Model F.

Sure you can't put your MX artisans on it. not a problem to me. Unicomp makes

Plus it just feels weird to collect these old gross boards when you have a company who' been making them for decades still doing it, and very affordably too

[pr0ximity]

Beamspring boards are not only pretty rare, by comparison, they are also useless without a bunch of challenging conversion work, putting them out of end-game contention for most, even among the DT crowd.

One great benefit of having Topre as an end-game switch is that brand new Topre boards are plentiful, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

I disagree that "end-game" keyboards need to be plentiful and readily available.

If the question is "what is the best modern retail board" then I'd agree Realforce takes the cake.

But to me a true Geekhack end-game is "what keyboard is the last one you will ever need" with no other qualifications. HHKB seems the most common to me on /r/mk, here I'd say it's close between HHKB and a custom.

[zslane]

I presume the appeal of vintage Model Fs and Ms is precisely that they are old. This "vintage caché" depends entirely on the belief that old gear is superior to new gear in terms of materials and/or build quality, hence it is more desireable. If you adopt this belief system, then you will almost always take an old, authentic IBM board over a new Unicomp clone, especially if you get to invest great personal effort (and ego) into restoring it.

[iamtootallforthis]

Beamspring boards are not only pretty rare, by comparison, they are also useless without a bunch of challenging conversion work, putting them out of end-game contention for most, even among the DT crowd.

One great benefit of having Topre as an end-game switch is that brand new Topre boards are plentiful, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

I disagree that "end-game" keyboards need to be plentiful and readily available.

If the question is "what is the best modern retail board" then I'd agree Realforce takes the cake.

But to me a true Geekhack end-game is "what keyboard is the last one you will ever need" with no other qualifications. HHKB seems the most common to me on /r/mk, here I'd say it's close between HHKB and a custom.

I agree with you on that endgame boards don't need to be plentiful and readily available.

I would say it is a toss up between a RF and a HHKB for best modern retail board.

Endgame though seems to lean more toward customs for most people here though from what I have gathered.

[zslane]

Beamspring boards are not only pretty rare, by comparison, they are also useless without a bunch of challenging conversion work, putting them out of end-game contention for most, even among the DT crowd.

One great benefit of having Topre as an end-game switch is that brand new Topre boards are plentiful, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

I disagree that "end-game" keyboards need to be plentiful and readily available.

If the question is "what is the best modern retail board" then I'd agree Realforce takes the cake.

But to me a true Geekhack end-game is "what keyboard is the last one you will ever need" with no other qualifications. HHKB seems the most common to me on /r/mk, here I'd say it's close between HHKB and a custom.

I agree with you on that endgame boards don't need to be plentiful and readily available.

I would say it is a toss up between a RF and a HHKB for best modern retail board.

Endgame though seems to lean more toward customs for most people here though from what I have gathered.

Yeah, there's an argument to be made, I suppose, that anyone who accepts a straight-out-of-the-box board as their end-game board is just not discerning enough (yet?). But "end-game" covers a pretty wide spectrum, and for some folks there is a stock board out there that satisfies their definition, while for others nothing but a fully custom board with a one-off PCB, plate, case, layout, and keycap set will do the job.

I'm somewhere in the middle, where my end-game board is currently a stock board that I did a bit of customization work on (paint job, silencing rings, keycap swap).

[happylacquer]

I presume the appeal of vintage Model Fs and Ms is precisely that they are old. This "vintage caché" depends entirely on the belief that old gear is superior to new gear in terms of materials and/or build quality, hence it is more desireable. If you adopt this belief system, then you will almost always take an old, authentic IBM board over a new Unicomp clone, especially if you get to invest great personal effort (and ego) into restoring it.

I understand that viewpoint but i do not agree at all that it is worth restoring an old partly worn out one for questionable amounts of benefit if any. plenty could be equally or more happy with a new unicomp. Again, different viewpoints. If you are not even willing to touch a lexmark model m then while  i understand,  i disagree with your viewpoints as i'd rather support the only company still doing it, especially if they are domestic...

[iamtootallforthis]

Beamspring boards are not only pretty rare, by comparison, they are also useless without a bunch of challenging conversion work, putting them out of end-game contention for most, even among the DT crowd.

One great benefit of having Topre as an end-game switch is that brand new Topre boards are plentiful, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

I disagree that "end-game" keyboards need to be plentiful and readily available.

If the question is "what is the best modern retail board" then I'd agree Realforce takes the cake.

But to me a true Geekhack end-game is "what keyboard is the last one you will ever need" with no other qualifications. HHKB seems the most common to me on /r/mk, here I'd say it's close between HHKB and a custom.

I agree with you on that endgame boards don't need to be plentiful and readily available.

I would say it is a toss up between a RF and a HHKB for best modern retail board.

Endgame though seems to lean more toward customs for most people here though from what I have gathered.

Yeah, there's an argument to be made, I suppose, that anyone who accepts a straight-out-of-the-box board as their end-game board is just not discerning enough (yet?). But "end-game" covers a pretty wide spectrum, and for some folks there is a stock board out there that satisfies their definition, while for others nothing but a fully custom board with a one-off PCB, plate, case, layout, and keycap set will do the job.

I'm somewhere in the middle, where my end-game board is currently a stock board that I did a bit of customization work on (paint job, silencing rings, keycap swap).

I wouldn't say that. There are some people who truly enjoy a HHKB to the point where it is their end game. There are also people who love Kishsaver or other Model F boards.

I would say I have not reach an end game setup yet.

[zslane]

Beamspring boards are not only pretty rare, by comparison, they are also useless without a bunch of challenging conversion work, putting them out of end-game contention for most, even among the DT crowd.

One great benefit of having Topre as an end-game switch is that brand new Topre boards are plentiful, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

I disagree that "end-game" keyboards need to be plentiful and readily available.

If the question is "what is the best modern retail board" then I'd agree Realforce takes the cake.

But to me a true Geekhack end-game is "what keyboard is the last one you will ever need" with no other qualifications. HHKB seems the most common to me on /r/mk, here I'd say it's close between HHKB and a custom.

I agree with you on that endgame boards don't need to be plentiful and readily available.

I would say it is a toss up between a RF and a HHKB for best modern retail board.

Endgame though seems to lean more toward customs for most people here though from what I have gathered.

Yeah, there's an argument to be made, I suppose, that anyone who accepts a straight-out-of-the-box board as their end-game board is just not discerning enough (yet?). But "end-game" covers a pretty wide spectrum, and for some folks there is a stock board out there that satisfies their definition, while for others nothing but a fully custom board with a one-off PCB, plate, case, layout, and keycap set will do the job.

I'm somewhere in the middle, where my end-game board is currently a stock board that I did a bit of customization work on (paint job, silencing rings, keycap swap).

I wouldn't say that.

You wouldn't say that "end-game" covers a wide spectrum of definitions/goals/expectations?

[iamtootallforthis]

Beamspring boards are not only pretty rare, by comparison, they are also useless without a bunch of challenging conversion work, putting them out of end-game contention for most, even among the DT crowd.

One great benefit of having Topre as an end-game switch is that brand new Topre boards are plentiful, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

I disagree that "end-game" keyboards need to be plentiful and readily available.

If the question is "what is the best modern retail board" then I'd agree Realforce takes the cake.

But to me a true Geekhack end-game is "what keyboard is the last one you will ever need" with no other qualifications. HHKB seems the most common to me on /r/mk, here I'd say it's close between HHKB and a custom.

I agree with you on that endgame boards don't need to be plentiful and readily available.

I would say it is a toss up between a RF and a HHKB for best modern retail board.

Endgame though seems to lean more toward customs for most people here though from what I have gathered.

Yeah, there's an argument to be made, I suppose, that anyone who accepts a straight-out-of-the-box board as their end-game board is just not discerning enough (yet?). But "end-game" covers a pretty wide spectrum, and for some folks there is a stock board out there that satisfies their definition, while for others nothing but a fully custom board with a one-off PCB, plate, case, layout, and keycap set will do the job.

I'm somewhere in the middle, where my end-game board is currently a stock board that I did a bit of customization work on (paint job, silencing rings, keycap swap).

I wouldn't say that.

You wouldn't say that "end-game" covers a wide spectrum of definitions/goals/expectations?

No that was in regards to this "that anyone who accepts a straight-out-of-the-box board as their end-game board is just not discerning enough (yet?)"

There are some people who have tried many a board and still go back to an HHKB or RF or even a Kish.

[zslane]

Right. The rest of my post was an in-place refutation of that assertion. I guess you're just agreeing/reiterating? 

[iamtootallforthis]

Right. The rest of my post was an in-place refutation of that assertion. I guess you're just agreeing/reiterating? 

Yeah I guess so haha

[klennkellon]

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Lite2-Black/dp/B0000U1DJ2

I would buy it only if it had a CTRL key in the right spot. Even if that's a rubber dome.

fyi that is the "lite" version which uses regular mediocre rubber domes. The version OP is referencing is the much more expensive HHKB which uses 45g Topre.

[happylacquer]

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Lite2-Black/dp/B0000U1DJ2

I would buy it only if it had a CTRL key in the right spot. Even if that's a rubber dome.

hhkb do have control in the proper spot...  SUN would agree...

[Niomosy]

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Lite2-Black/dp/B0000U1DJ2

I would buy it only if it had a CTRL key in the right spot. Even if that's a rubber dome.

hhkn do have control in the proper spot...  SUN would agree...

The HHKB also has \| in an atrocious spot.  Sun, fortunately, eventually realized this error and corrected it.  Honestly, though, I never count Ctrl in the Caps Lock spot better, just different. 

[happylacquer]

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Lite2-Black/dp/B0000U1DJ2

I would buy it only if it had a CTRL key in the right spot. Even if that's a rubber dome.

hhkn do have control in the proper spot...  SUN would agree...

The HHKB also has \| in an atrocious spot.  Sun, fortunately, eventually realized this error and corrected it.  Honestly, though, I never count Ctrl in the Caps Lock spot better, just different.

I find it to be vaastly more comfortable but that is easily a personal opinion. I will agree I hate where HHKB puts ` and \.

[y11971alex]

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Lite2-Black/dp/B0000U1DJ2

I would buy it only if it had a CTRL key in the right spot. Even if that's a rubber dome.

hhkn do have control in the proper spot...  SUN would agree...

I do agree that CTRL is very much at home next to A, it being that I only use CTRL with my left hand.  I also don't use CAPSLOCK often, so it can be banished to the spot under right SHIFT.

[zslane]

Back in the day, CTRL was always next to A, and that's what I originally got used to. But then personal computers came along and banished CTRL to the bottom row, and now that's what I'm used to. C'est la vie.

[happylacquer]

c'est

[y11971alex]

c'est

= c(e)est.

[OfTheWild]

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Lite2-Black/dp/B0000U1DJ2

I would buy it only if it had a CTRL key in the right spot. Even if that's a rubber dome.

hhkn do have control in the proper spot...  SUN would agree...

The HHKB also has \| in an atrocious spot.  Sun, fortunately, eventually realized this error and corrected it.  Honestly, though, I never count Ctrl in the Caps Lock spot better, just different.

I would consider the control to the left of A a great improvement (it used to be like this back in the old IBM XT days then it was changed). I never use caps lock but I copy and paste and use shortcuts all day long. Having it on home-row really feels natural to me.

HHKB is a really fun and practical board. It's not endgame by any means. Its lack of quality actually is what adds to its remarkably unique feel and sound. I love mine but its just a really expensive rubber dome keyboard.

[SpAmRaY]

The HHKB is the only keyboard I've sold then regretted it and bought it again.

[OfTheWild]

The HHKB is the only keyboard I've sold then regretted it and bought it again.

It does have a certain je ne c'est quoi to it. My hhkb and the first board i even built, the Sentraq... are the only two boards I wouldnt sell. lol

[Joey Quinn]

The HHKB is the only keyboard I've sold then regretted it and bought it again.

The HHKB is the only board I've bought 2 of

I may be considering a third...

[zslane]

If the definition of "favorite board" is having bought more than one, then I guess my favorite boards are/have been:

• Filco Majestouch-2 (x6)
• Vortex Pok3r (x4)
• Varmilo VA108M (x2)
• RealForce RGB (x2)

[Niomosy]

Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Lite2-Black/dp/B0000U1DJ2

I would buy it only if it had a CTRL key in the right spot. Even if that's a rubber dome.

hhkn do have control in the proper spot...  SUN would agree...

The HHKB also has \| in an atrocious spot.  Sun, fortunately, eventually realized this error and corrected it.  Honestly, though, I never count Ctrl in the Caps Lock spot better, just different.

I would consider the control to the left of A a great improvement (it used to be like this back in the old IBM XT days then it was changed). I never use caps lock but I copy and paste and use shortcuts all day long. Having it on home-row really feels natural to me.

HHKB is a really fun and practical board. It's not endgame by any means. Its lack of quality actually is what adds to its remarkably unique feel and sound. I love mine but its just a really expensive rubber dome keyboard.

I've used the Sun layout, which the HHKB employs, for many years in working on Sun systems.  The Control key in either location is okay but at this point, I'm happy leaving it in the typical ANSI spot as certain gaming uses make the Ctrl key more convenient down in the corner.  Though I'm not an Emacs person, I use an Emacs style command line (set -o emacs rather than set -o vi), so I make pretty regular use of the Ctrl key.

The HHKB just really isn't the board for me.  It's all the things I don't like about 60% boards while also having an even worse layout than the typical 60% board.

[tp4tissue]

HHKB's not even close to endgame..

It's barely the beginning..

[happylacquer]

HHKB's not even close to endgame..

It's barely the beginning..

You must be that guy who has extra large font printed on their keycaps.

[iamtootallforthis]

HHKB's not even close to endgame..

It's barely the beginning..

You must be that guy who has extra large font printed on their keycaps.

Nah he's just praises ergodox.

[tp4tissue]

HHKB's not even close to endgame..

It's barely the beginning..

You must be that guy who has extra large font printed on their keycaps.

Nah he's just praises ergodox.

YES to Ergodox..


No to Printed caps..  PRINTED caps are so useless..

Printed caps are for Sheep.. think for yourselves. 

[happylacquer]

HHKB's not even close to endgame..

It's barely the beginning..

You must be that guy who has extra large font printed on their keycaps.

Nah he's just praises ergodox.

YES to Ergodox..


No to Printed caps..  PRINTED caps are so useless..

I sure love when one post takes up half my browser window.

[tp4tissue]

YES to Ergodox..


No to Printed caps..  PRINTED caps are so useless..

I sure love when one post takes up half my browser window.

[happylacquer]

YES to Ergodox..


No to Printed caps..  PRINTED caps are so useless..

I sure love when one post takes up half my browser window.

(Attachment Link)

Very rude of you to leave your font sizes unedited and change mine to 12 point sir. You have some nerve