Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[davkol]

Extending the pinkie that much sounds awful.

I move the whole hand though. When striking the HHKB Backspace or ISO/JIS Enter, I only move my elbow a bit, hence rotate the whole hand so that the pinkie lands on the correct key.

Basically the same thing as with Tab.

[Niomosy]

Extending the pinkie that much sounds awful.

I move the whole hand though. When striking the HHKB Backspace or ISO/JIS Enter, I only move my elbow a bit, hence rotate the whole hand so that the pinkie lands on the correct key.

Basically the same thing as with Tab.

Play many an instrument.  Plenty of pinky stretching can happen there.  The amount of pinky movement to get to an ANSI enter key is trivial.

[davkol]

The design of most musical instruments sucks (and dealing with the aftermath is a common practice, example).

"Using larger muscle groups" is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Niomosy]

The design of most musical instruments sucks (and dealing with the aftermath is a common practice, example).

"Using larger muscle groups" is exactly what I'm talking about.

Sure but that's not really the point.  It was that the movement of my pinky to hit the enter key, in comparison to playing many instruments, is pretty trivial.  I often move my hand as well but extending the pinky to hit the ANSI enter key hasn't really been a big deal for me.

[davkol]

Shooting yourself in the foot is pretty trivial compared to blowing your head off.

[ideus]

I have found that ANSI, ISO and HHKB layouts are equally easy to use; but, they have minimal advantages and disadvantages that are so small to be significant. I found ANSI to be the worst fit for my needs and the other two providing the same level of comfort.

[Niomosy]

Shooting yourself in the foot is pretty trivial compared to blowing your head off.

And now we see the violence inherent in ISO keyboards.

[Petch]

ISO is awful, I grew up on it and can't go back now. Unusable left shift, enter key further away from home row. Just no.

[davkol]

ISO is awful, I grew up on it and can't go back now.

I wonder what you use now.

enter key further away from home row.

It's literally on the home row. It also spreads one row above it, but it's on the home row.

Unusable left shift

If you use [unmodified] ANSI, I wonder how you press Ctrl or Backspace… or right Shift for that matter.

Oh wait, "larger muscle groups" probably. Then the left Shift isn't unusable at all.

I have found that ANSI, ISO and HHKB layouts are equally easy to use; but, they have minimal advantages and disadvantages that are so small to be significant.

Thus, ErgoDox.

[Niomosy]

Ergodox has its own set of layout flaws.  No keyboard is ideal or at least ideal for all users.

[davkol]

Perfect is the enemy of good.

Recognizing why something like ErgoDox is more suitable for touch typing [than the Sholes' keyboard] is a matter of Anatomy and Physiology 101.

[Marutks]

I am huge fan of rubber dome keyboards.   
The cheaper the better. Sometimes not all keys work but it's not end of the world.   

[Niomosy]

Perfect is the enemy of good.

Recognizing why something like ErgoDox is more suitable for touch typing [than the Sholes' keyboard] is a matter of Anatomy and Physiology 101.

Yup.  I also realize I really don't have a need for an Ergodox.  As a bonus, it saves me money as I don't need to buy Ergodox kits for any set purchased.

[xtrafrood]

Am an absolute Python newb--starting to think that a 1.5u backslash/ANSI could help me reduce my error rate a bit. Seems like most people here would rather have 1u backslash.

[Marutks]

I prefer 1.5u backspace and 1u backslash. HHKB style. Luckily most keycap sets include 1.5u backspace/delete key.

[zslane]

All my muscle memory is tied to QWERTY. Switching to anything else would simply be a waste of my time and energy.

I don't mind the 1.5u |\ key. I'm not sure what I'd rather have there anyway.

I have an alternate layout that I designed (for a full-size board) that I think would have been nice had it become the standard back in the 80s. But now such layout fantasies are pretty pointless (for me). I'm content with ANSI 104/108.

[ɔiɈɘʜɈƨ∍∀]

hhkb layout is way overrated for work flow usage    sincerely 980c owner

[poq]

hhkb layout is way overrated for work flow usage    sincerely 980c owner

If you use it in the way it was originally intended, for UNIX/Emacs usage, it's great. For something like data entry, of course a numpad is going to be more useful, but that's not the use-case the HHKB layout was intended to be used for.

[ideus]

hhkb layout is way overrated for work flow usage    sincerely 980c owner

If you use it in the way it was originally intended, for UNIX/Emacs usage, it's great. For something like data entry, of course a numpad is going to be more useful, but that's not the use-case the HHKB layout was intended to be used for.

Is there any UNIX computer in use nowadays? and who uses Emacs only?

[alienman82]

removed.

[ideus]

hhkb layout is way overrated for work flow usage    sincerely 980c owner

If you use it in the way it was originally intended, for UNIX/Emacs usage, it's great. For something like data entry, of course a numpad is going to be more useful, but that's not the use-case the HHKB layout was intended to be used for.

Is there any UNIX computer in use nowadays? and who uses Emacs only?

My one math professor used emacs to code live problems for us

He could type 150 WPM in code and he used an mx brown full size layout ansi

I've used pretty much all layouts except 40%, and they make little difference

So, a math professor is the HHKB's prototype user?

I agree that ANSI multiple  layouts make little difference for actual use?

[davkol]

Is there any UNIX computer in use nowadays?

Yes, just like there's still running code in Cobol from decades ago.

Besides, *BSD systems are unices, MacOS is a certified Unix and GNU/Linux can be spiritually close enough depending on use case.

and who uses Emacs only?

I know a few people, at least one is using it even as a window manager.

Some are old-school hackers in academia (CompSci/math), some are sysadmins, some are writers.

[iFreilicht]

Shooting yourself in the foot is pretty trivial compared to blowing your head off.

 ) ****ing A

[kmba]

Kosmos are ugly. Fugus are ugly. Clacks  are ugly.

[xtrafrood]

 

[tp4tissue]

Kosmos are ugly. Fugus are ugly. Clacks  are ugly.

Fugus look alrite, it's definitely at least, expressive ..


clacks are definitely ugly, but clack has cachet as they're really the first pokemon of the keycap scene.

But like all things pokemon,  people forget about them, the market plummets and the keys become worthless.


For example,  if a clack wasn't supported and coveted by the market,   it's really just an average looking keycap, devoid of any deep artistry or geometric progressions.  There's nothing inherently beautiful about clack skulls.. not the physical form, not the connotation.   

Once the hype is out,  and it's been going out following the ubiquity of mechanical keyboard itself, the clacks will instantly go in the basement bins next to the pokemon cards.

My basement is full of similar trinkets,  pokemon, digimon, yugioh, magic, tamagotchi, yoyos, furby, couple of beanybabies, stamp collection

[Niomosy]

hhkb layout is way overrated for work flow usage    sincerely 980c owner

If you use it in the way it was originally intended, for UNIX/Emacs usage, it's great. For something like data entry, of course a numpad is going to be more useful, but that's not the use-case the HHKB layout was intended to be used for.

UNIX admin chiming in.  I used the layout for years on Sun keyboards.  It's a programmer's keyboard.  It's decent at Emacs but sucks for UNIX given the placement of the \| key in a bad location.  To be honest, though, for a Ctrl-happy editor like Emacs, I'd rather the Ctrl key in the ANSI location.  I use Emacs mostly from set -o emacs and going through lots of Ctrl use, I've found that I don't like the Caps Lock location as much for the Ctrl key.

Is there any UNIX computer in use nowadays? and who uses Emacs only?

Plenty of UNIX in use daily.  Solaris, AIX, and HP-UX are all still current UNIX operating systems.  Probably a few other smaller ones as well in the fully commercial world.  BSD UNIX OSes are still around.  MacOS is BSD with a Mach microkernel.  Linux is UNIX-like without using original UNIX code and huge amounts of the internet as well as enterprises run on or at least include Linux.

[zslane]

I began using Emacs back in 1981 when the keyboard standard of the day was to have the Ctrl key next to the A key. But then IBM moved it to the bottom row and I grudgingly adapted to that.

I spent a grand total of 4 years using keyboards with Ctrl where Caps Lock is now, and the last 32 years getting used to Ctrl on the bottom row. There is no earthly reason to switch back, regardless of which OS or text editor I am using. And I'd venture to say that 99.999% of keyboard users today have never experienced Ctrl next to A. You HHKB people make no sense. You're totally free to like/prefer the board, but your ergonomic arguments don't hold water.

[_haru]

I hate typing on Topre. It feels like the time I lubed my rubber dome board with WD-40.

[AMongoose]

I began using Emacs back in 1981 when the keyboard standard of the day was to have the Ctrl key next to the A key. But then IBM moved it to the bottom row and I grudgingly adapted to that.

I spent a grand total of 4 years using keyboards with Ctrl where Caps Lock is now, and the last 32 years getting used to Ctrl on the bottom row. There is no earthly reason to switch back, regardless of which OS or text editor I am using. And I'd venture to say that 99.999% of keyboard users today have never experienced Ctrl next to A. You HHKB people make no sense. You're totally free to like/prefer the board, but your ergonomic arguments don't hold water.

It's not that big of a deal to switch a key to most people and Ctrl next to A greatly reduces pinky stretching.

If you think that it would be to difficult for you to change okay, but saying that the argument is nil because of that makes no sense.

[iFreilicht]

You HHKB people make no sense. You're totally free to like/prefer the board, but your ergonomic arguments don't hold water.

Well, people might feel that something is more ergonomic for them, and that's cool, but as long as no representative study has been done, you can't really argue either way, it's merely a matter of opinion. Even feeling that it makes no difference is just subjective.

[poq]

You HHKB people make no sense. You're totally free to like/prefer the board, but your ergonomic arguments don't hold water.

I mean when I go from "Emacs pinky" to not having it I think it certainly works. I also find it much more useful to use in games, the whole awkward hand contortion thing just doesn't work or make sense to me. While I can certainly use control in its now standard position, it's less about where control is and more about why the **** do I need a caps lock key taking up a useful home-row spot.

[poq]

I hate typing on Topre. It feels like the time I lubed my rubber dome board with WD-40.

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

[UTEster750]

I hate typing on Topre. It feels like the time I lubed my rubber dome board with WD-40.

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

I want to know the thought process behind this!

[SBJ]

I hate typing on Topre. It feels like the time I lubed my rubber dome board with WD-40.

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

I want to know the thought process behind this!

Why not? )
It's all about the learning process fellas.

[UTEster750]

I hate typing on Topre. It feels like the time I lubed my rubber dome board with WD-40.

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

I want to know the thought process behind this!

Why not? )
It's all about the learning process fellas.

Next time going to try with WD40 silicone spray?  )

[xtrafrood]

I hate typing on Topre. It feels like the time I lubed my rubber dome board with WD-40.

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

I want to know the thought process behind this!

Why not? )
It's all about the learning process fellas.

Next time going to try with WD40 silicone spray?  )

Use MEDICAL GRADE silicone spray, not WD40.

- Sauce -

http://vintagescuba.proboards.com/thread/2432/rubber-maintenance

- Not Scuba Stuff -

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2642-How-to-Soften-Old-Hard-Rubber

- Technical Reads -

http://www.bouncing-balls.com/chemistry_tech_conservation/conserve.htm

[UTEster750]

I hate typing on Topre. It feels like the time I lubed my rubber dome board with WD-40.

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

I want to know the thought process behind this!

Why not? )
It's all about the learning process fellas.

Next time going to try with WD40 silicone spray?  )

Use MEDICAL GRADE silicone spray, not WD40.

- Sauce -

http://vintagescuba.proboards.com/thread/2432/rubber-maintenance

- Not Scuba Stuff -

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2642-How-to-Soften-Old-Hard-Rubber

- Technical Reads -

http://www.bouncing-balls.com/chemistry_tech_conservation/conserve.htm

I wouldn't be using it at all, just taking the piss 

[xtrafrood]

I hate typing on Topre. It feels like the time I lubed my rubber dome board with WD-40.

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

I want to know the thought process behind this!

Why not? )
It's all about the learning process fellas.

Next time going to try with WD40 silicone spray?  )

Use MEDICAL GRADE silicone spray, not WD40.

- Sauce -

http://vintagescuba.proboards.com/thread/2432/rubber-maintenance

- Not Scuba Stuff -

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/2642-How-to-Soften-Old-Hard-Rubber

- Technical Reads -

http://www.bouncing-balls.com/chemistry_tech_conservation/conserve.htm

I wouldn't be using it at all, just taking the piss 

Users have reported a change in the silicone after 5-10 years. Just covering my ass because I've mentioned silicone spray before.

[_haru]

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

I want to know the thought process behind this!

This was a couple of years ago, twelve-year-old me thought it would be a cool way to make my keyboard more linear on the cheap.

Why not? )
It's all about the learning process fellas.

Yup, exactly this. If I hadn't done some of the crazy crap I've done in my previous years, I wouldn't have my sweet board today

Next time going to try with WD40 silicone spray?  )

Was thinking about that for MX switches. Might buy a can and see how it goes

I wouldn't be using it at all, just taking the piss 

Oh :V

[xtrafrood]

...why did you lube a rubber dome with WD40?

I want to know the thought process behind this!

This was a couple of years ago, twelve-year-old me thought it would be a cool way to make my keyboard more linear on the cheap.

Why not? )
It's all about the learning process fellas.

Yup, exactly this. If I hadn't done some of the crazy crap I've done in my previous years, I wouldn't have my sweet board today

Next time going to try with WD40 silicone spray?  )

Was thinking about that for MX switches. Might buy a can and see how it goes

I wouldn't be using it at all, just taking the piss 

Oh :V

Just after my 8th birthday, I decided to deconstruct a Sonic the Hedgehog R/C car in an attempt to rebuild it as an R/C boat. It didn't go well. Has nothing to do with keyboards--but the point is that failure is often the main component in experimentation. It would be wise to only spray the top of the domes imo

edit - with silicone spray.. not WD40. WD40 on none of the things..

[Niomosy]

I began using Emacs back in 1981 when the keyboard standard of the day was to have the Ctrl key next to the A key. But then IBM moved it to the bottom row and I grudgingly adapted to that.

I spent a grand total of 4 years using keyboards with Ctrl where Caps Lock is now, and the last 32 years getting used to Ctrl on the bottom row. There is no earthly reason to switch back, regardless of which OS or text editor I am using. And I'd venture to say that 99.999% of keyboard users today have never experienced Ctrl next to A. You HHKB people make no sense. You're totally free to like/prefer the board, but your ergonomic arguments don't hold water.

It's not that big of a deal to switch a key to most people and Ctrl next to A greatly reduces pinky stretching.

If you think that it would be to difficult for you to change okay, but saying that the argument is nil because of that makes no sense.

Might be more a matter of pinky preference rather than just thinking about the length of the stretch.  Moving my pinky to the Caps Lock is pretty easy, yes.  Holding it down, though, gets problematic for certain Ctrl key combinations.  Mostly bottom row left-hand stuff that gets used a lot in Windows or at the Linux/UNIX command line.  Ctrl-C isn't too bad but Z and X get a bit uncomfortable with the home row Ctrl key in comparison to being down in the corner.

To me, the difference in pinky movement is entirely unimportant.

[antquinonez]

3) I think most artisan caps look like **** but no one wants to be honest and tell the makers to continue improving their designs/processes. People want exclusive **** and are willing to kiss ass to get it.

some hardcore truth right there

How many times have we seen the same dang thing -- kind of uninteresting after your nth time seeing some recolor of a skull/whatever. The providers of artisan caps should think in terms high craftsmanship/hand made/hand-painted creations. I've seen tiny little paintings that people have made by painting finger nails, pennies. Artisans should think of becoming artists, learning their trade some more, upping their game.

This is what I'm talking about: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=75222.0

[zslane]

Well, people might feel that something is more ergonomic for them, and that's cool, but as long as no representative study has been done, you can't really argue either way, it's merely a matter of opinion. Even feeling that it makes no difference is just subjective.

We don't need a study to tell us what the most common keyboard layouts in the Western world are. They are QWERTY-based ANSI/ISO with the Ctrl key on the bottom row. Everyone's muscle memory is attuned to this layout. It is the standard and it is what nearly everyone who uses a keyboard is accustomed to. That's not a matter of opinion.

Health issues aside, ergonomics are irrelevant when muscle memory has already made a particular muscular action innate, almost subconscious. For anyone who uses the Ctrl key a lot, its position on the bottom row has long since ceased to be awkward, probably around the same time typing in general ceased to be awkward. For anyone who doesn't use the Ctrl key much, or for whom typing is always awkward, I submit that there is no position for the Ctrl key that is going to make any appreciable difference.

[AMongoose]

Well, people might feel that something is more ergonomic for them, and that's cool, but as long as no representative study has been done, you can't really argue either way, it's merely a matter of opinion. Even feeling that it makes no difference is just subjective.

We don't need a study to tell us what the most common keyboard layouts in the Western world are. They are QWERTY-based ANSI/ISO with the Ctrl key on the bottom row. Everyone's muscle memory is attuned to this layout. It is the standard and it is what nearly everyone who uses a keyboard is accustomed to. That's not a matter of opinion.

Health issues aside, ergonomics are irrelevant when muscle memory has already made a particular muscular action innate, almost subconscious. For anyone who uses the Ctrl key a lot, its position on the bottom row has long since ceased to be awkward, probably around the same time typing in general ceased to be awkward. For anyone who doesn't use the Ctrl key much, or for whom typing is always awkward, I submit that there is no position for the Ctrl key that is going to make any appreciable difference.

Or some people don't care about muscle memory that much and prefer being a bit more comfortable.

[zslane]

"When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." -- Wikipedia

Are you talking about something which was once muscle memory, but has become uncomfortable over time? Or are you referring to a motor activity that was so uncomfortable from the start that it was never repeated enough times to become so? In the case of the former, I would definitely recommend learning a new method that doesn't risk causing harm to oneself (the discomfort may be a sign of more serious health issues). In the case of the latter, I would similarly recommend an alternate muscular action that avoids the discomfort.

However, in my case (and the case for what I suspect is 99.999% of keyboard users out there), things like Ctrl on the bottom row present no noticeable discomfort at all, and so having muscle memory tied to it isn't a problem. Moreover, thanks to muscle memory, that layout is yielding the benefits of "maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." Changing to something else would be patently counter-productive, and recommending that folks do so would be doing them a disservice.

[poq]

"When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." -- Wikipedia

Are you talking about something which was once muscle memory, but has become uncomfortable over time? Or are you referring to a motor activity that was so uncomfortable from the start that it was never repeated enough times to become so? In the case of the former, I would definitely recommend learning a new method that doesn't risk causing harm to oneself (the discomfort may be a sign of more serious health issues). In the case of the latter, I would similarly recommend an alternate muscular action that avoids the discomfort.

However, in my case (and the case for what I suspect is 99.999% of keyboard users out there), things like Ctrl on the bottom row present no noticeable discomfort at all, and so having muscle memory tied to it isn't a problem. Moreover, thanks to muscle memory, that layout is yielding the benefits of "maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." Changing to something else would be patently counter-productive, and recommending that folks do so would be doing them a disservice.

maximum motor/memory efficiency =/= comfort

If i was used to throwing my board in the air to register a certain press, that doesn't mean there's no benefit to me learning to do that a different way.
My memory and motor systems were used to qwerty, but I found it uncomfortable and have changed keyboard layouts twice since then, which was worth the effort.


99% of people only use control very sparingly as well, so it could be anywhere on a keyboard and they wouldn't be bothered, doesn't mean that's the right spot for it.

[Niomosy]

"When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." -- Wikipedia

Are you talking about something which was once muscle memory, but has become uncomfortable over time? Or are you referring to a motor activity that was so uncomfortable from the start that it was never repeated enough times to become so? In the case of the former, I would definitely recommend learning a new method that doesn't risk causing harm to oneself (the discomfort may be a sign of more serious health issues). In the case of the latter, I would similarly recommend an alternate muscular action that avoids the discomfort.

However, in my case (and the case for what I suspect is 99.999% of keyboard users out there), things like Ctrl on the bottom row present no noticeable discomfort at all, and so having muscle memory tied to it isn't a problem. Moreover, thanks to muscle memory, that layout is yielding the benefits of "maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." Changing to something else would be patently counter-productive, and recommending that folks do so would be doing them a disservice.

maximum motor/memory efficiency =/= comfort

If i was used to throwing my board in the air to register a certain press, that doesn't mean there's no benefit to me learning to do that a different way.
My memory and motor systems were used to qwerty, but I found it uncomfortable and have changed keyboard layouts twice since then, which was worth the effort.


99% of people only use control very sparingly as well, so it could be anywhere on a keyboard and they wouldn't be bothered, doesn't mean that's the right spot for it.

I use Ctrl a bit more heavily than most.  I'm a UNIX admin so get the typical Ctrl-C/Z usage, use emacs at the CLI, make heavy use of the keyboard shortcuts in Windows apps (lots of Ctrl use there), and play FPS where Ctrl use for crouch is pretty common.  There are those that use it more than me but I do use it a fair amount.

I prefer it in the corner.  It's more comfortable for me with certain Ctrl combinations such as row 4 left-hand keys. 

[poq]

"When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." -- Wikipedia

Are you talking about something which was once muscle memory, but has become uncomfortable over time? Or are you referring to a motor activity that was so uncomfortable from the start that it was never repeated enough times to become so? In the case of the former, I would definitely recommend learning a new method that doesn't risk causing harm to oneself (the discomfort may be a sign of more serious health issues). In the case of the latter, I would similarly recommend an alternate muscular action that avoids the discomfort.

However, in my case (and the case for what I suspect is 99.999% of keyboard users out there), things like Ctrl on the bottom row present no noticeable discomfort at all, and so having muscle memory tied to it isn't a problem. Moreover, thanks to muscle memory, that layout is yielding the benefits of "maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." Changing to something else would be patently counter-productive, and recommending that folks do so would be doing them a disservice.

maximum motor/memory efficiency =/= comfort

If i was used to throwing my board in the air to register a certain press, that doesn't mean there's no benefit to me learning to do that a different way.
My memory and motor systems were used to qwerty, but I found it uncomfortable and have changed keyboard layouts twice since then, which was worth the effort.


99% of people only use control very sparingly as well, so it could be anywhere on a keyboard and they wouldn't be bothered, doesn't mean that's the right spot for it.

I use Ctrl a bit more heavily than most.  I'm a UNIX admin so get the typical Ctrl-C/Z usage, use emacs at the CLI, make heavy use of the keyboard shortcuts in Windows apps (lots of Ctrl use there), and play FPS where Ctrl use for crouch is pretty common.  There are those that use it more than me but I do use it a fair amount.

I prefer it in the corner.  It's more comfortable for me with certain Ctrl combinations such as row 4 left-hand keys.

I use it probably even more than you, all of my window manager's actions are prefixed by C-t, emacs user as well. The standard shortcuts (C-c/v/x/z) don't bother me because I don't use them, and even if i did they're mostly accessed by my right hand (dvorak). I don't like it in the corner because of how I have to contort my hand instead of moving my left pinky over a little bit. I've had it bound to Caps since before i even owned a mech, so it's not like i use that position just because of an HHKB.

Like I said before though, i'm less concerned about people wanting to have a control in the corner of the board than i am about people leaving caps lock in it's standard spot. It's a waste.

[SBJ]

hhkb layout is way overrated for work flow usage    sincerely 980c owner

HIGH-FIVE.
I needs those dedicated arrow keys too.