Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[antquinonez]

Beige is not a color. Beige is an ugly color. No one, except computer makers use beige, unless they just want to mess with us. Shame about all that beige.

[tp4tissue]

Beige is not a color. Beige is an ugly color. No one, except computer makers use beige, unless they just want to mess with us. Shame about all that beige.

Beige is very nice on leather textures.

It's a good alternative to white, because titanium white pops too much and make a person look needy.

[Altis]

Beige is not a color. Beige is an ugly color. No one, except computer makers use beige, unless they just want to mess with us. Shame about all that beige.

There's this beige material that's commonly used for flooring, ceiling, walls, tables, chairs, decks, shelves, cabinets, doors, and just about anything you can think of.

It's called wood. 

[antquinonez]

Beige is not a color. Beige is an ugly color. No one, except computer makers use beige, unless they just want to mess with us. Shame about all that beige.

Beige is very nice on leather textures.

It's a good alternative to white, because titanium white pops too much and make a person look needy.

Fine. Beige is okay in Country Western clothing. :|

[AMongoose]

@zslane

One can retrain muscle memory and for most people a few weeks of not being 100% efficient in the use of the Ctrl key is not a problem.
Numerous people have reported the change in the Ctrl key being more comfortable and some even reducing pain, you may question those reports but it is still worth to try it out for most users.

[xtrafrood]

Beige is not a color. Beige is an ugly color. No one, except computer makers use beige, unless they just want to mess with us. Shame about all that beige.

Beige is very nice on leather textures.

It's a good alternative to white, because titanium white pops too much and make a person look needy.

Fine. Beige is okay in Country Western clothing. :|

Beige is the color of my childhood computing experience :<

[iFreilicht]

Beige is not a color. Beige is an ugly color. No one, except computer makers use beige, unless they just want to mess with us. Shame about all that beige.

If Beige is not a color it cannot be an ugly color, it can merely be ugly. Actually a lot of houses are painted in light beige, but I guess one could call it "sandstone" at that point. I've also seen it being used for ground color in pedestrian areas. Not a fan of it on KBs either, though.

However, in my case (and the case for what I suspect is 99.999% of keyboard users out there), things like Ctrl on the bottom row present no noticeable discomfort at all, and so having muscle memory tied to it isn't a problem. Moreover, thanks to muscle memory, that layout is yielding the benefits of "maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." Changing to something else would be patently counter-productive, and recommending that folks do so would be doing them a disservice.

That is a good point, a lot of "ergonomics" talk with keyboards is proactive, maybe overly so. However, none of us is part of 99% of keyboard users, a lot of us like to do unnecessary changes to their keyboards that don't improve usability in the first place. You won't run around tell all your friends that are happy with rubber domes that they should get a keyboard for 600€, that would be just as much of a disservice.

This whole discussion should be completely removed from what 99% of the users use or do as well. They are not in any way affected by it. What we (and everybody discussing altered keyboard layouts) are talking about is what the best layout is if there was no standard. Muscle memory for me does not matter in this argument.

Well, people might feel that something is more ergonomic for them, and that's cool, but as long as no representative study has been done, you can't really argue either way, it's merely a matter of opinion. Even feeling that it makes no difference is just subjective.

We don't need a study to tell us what the most common keyboard layouts in the Western world are. They are QWERTY-based ANSI/ISO with the Ctrl key on the bottom row. Everyone's muscle memory is attuned to this layout. It is the standard and it is what nearly everyone who uses a keyboard is accustomed to. That's not a matter of opinion.

And it's not what I was saying at all, either. What I was saying is whether a keyboard layout is "better" than another one is a matter of opinion.

Health issues aside, ergonomics are irrelevant when muscle memory has already made a particular muscular action innate, almost subconscious. For anyone who uses the Ctrl key a lot, its position on the bottom row has long since ceased to be awkward, probably around the same time typing in general ceased to be awkward. For anyone who doesn't use the Ctrl key much, or for whom typing is always awkward, I submit that there is no position for the Ctrl key that is going to make any appreciable difference.

It wasn't awkward for me either, but I quickly adapted to moving it to the home row and I like the change. Just because something isn't bad doesn't mean you can't improve it.

This goes for alternate layouts as well. I'm not uncomfortable typing in QWERTZ, but that doesn't mean it's the be-all-end-all solution for me.

[Auk]

Beige, gray, bleugh. Just a daily reminder that everything about modern keyboards is archaic typewriter bull**** that should've been replaced decades ago 

[antquinonez]

Beige, gray, bleugh. Just a daily reminder that everything about modern keyboards is archaic typewriter bull**** that should've been replaced decades ago 

It is, ain't it. 1870s, says wikipedia. And with QWERTY!

[xtrafrood]

Oh boy..

[zslane]

I suppose that fantasizing about a world without standards has a certain appeal, but I just think that the ergonomics case is way overstated, even for this select audience. I mean, you might as well also fantasize about a world in which we have six fingers on each hand; imagine the (pointless) alternate layouts you guys could devise for that situation! 

[Rayoui]

I used standard ANSI layout (Caps on home row) for almost 20 years before trying a board with Ctrl on the home row and I haven't looked back since. I make heavy use of Windows keyboard shortcuts and I find I'm doing much less reaching and no longer have to move or contort my hand to access them. I now use the home row position for Ctrl in all of my builds.

[Niomosy]

"When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." -- Wikipedia

Are you talking about something which was once muscle memory, but has become uncomfortable over time? Or are you referring to a motor activity that was so uncomfortable from the start that it was never repeated enough times to become so? In the case of the former, I would definitely recommend learning a new method that doesn't risk causing harm to oneself (the discomfort may be a sign of more serious health issues). In the case of the latter, I would similarly recommend an alternate muscular action that avoids the discomfort.

However, in my case (and the case for what I suspect is 99.999% of keyboard users out there), things like Ctrl on the bottom row present no noticeable discomfort at all, and so having muscle memory tied to it isn't a problem. Moreover, thanks to muscle memory, that layout is yielding the benefits of "maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems." Changing to something else would be patently counter-productive, and recommending that folks do so would be doing them a disservice.

maximum motor/memory efficiency =/= comfort

If i was used to throwing my board in the air to register a certain press, that doesn't mean there's no benefit to me learning to do that a different way.
My memory and motor systems were used to qwerty, but I found it uncomfortable and have changed keyboard layouts twice since then, which was worth the effort.


99% of people only use control very sparingly as well, so it could be anywhere on a keyboard and they wouldn't be bothered, doesn't mean that's the right spot for it.

I use Ctrl a bit more heavily than most.  I'm a UNIX admin so get the typical Ctrl-C/Z usage, use emacs at the CLI, make heavy use of the keyboard shortcuts in Windows apps (lots of Ctrl use there), and play FPS where Ctrl use for crouch is pretty common.  There are those that use it more than me but I do use it a fair amount.

I prefer it in the corner.  It's more comfortable for me with certain Ctrl combinations such as row 4 left-hand keys.

I use it probably even more than you, all of my window manager's actions are prefixed by C-t, emacs user as well. The standard shortcuts (C-c/v/x/z) don't bother me because I don't use them, and even if i did they're mostly accessed by my right hand (dvorak). I don't like it in the corner because of how I have to contort my hand instead of moving my left pinky over a little bit. I've had it bound to Caps since before i even owned a mech, so it's not like i use that position just because of an HHKB.

Like I said before though, i'm less concerned about people wanting to have a control in the corner of the board than i am about people leaving caps lock in it's standard spot. It's a waste.

Dvorack's not really a consideration for me.  I'm coming from ANSI QWERTY.  In that layout, my most-used Ctrl keys are on the bottom left.  To use the Ctrl key for those, the pinky is much more comfortable.  For FPS, left/right movement is about the same.  Forward/back movement has a preference for the corner again. 

Caps lock I don't really care about.  If it's there or if it's moved, meh. 

[Findecanor]

Beige is the color of my childhood computing experience :<

I built and painted the case for my Phantom beige, in the style of mimicking the Apple Extended Keyboard. I took it apart and cleaned it this morning.
I intend to go buy paint later today to repaint it, but I might select another hue of beige.

I am also considering beige-modding my newly acquired Wooting One with a top shell made from a Cherry G80 keyboard because I am not a fan of floating keys.

[Giorgio]

What's making me really laugh hard is that sometimes I hear europeans talking about the advantages of alternative layouts, when those layouts have been optimized with english in mind... Maybe there is one that has been optimized for french, probably Bépo.

[Findecanor]

As a European, I type more in English than in my native language anyway. There are many Swedish programmers who prefer ANSI for programming -- because the programming language symbols are more easily accessible in ANSI. The norm is also to use English for variable names etc. even if your program is only for the domestic market using the domestic language to the user.

And BTW, there is a Swedish version of Dvorak: Svorak, and there is Neo which is designed for German.

[AMongoose]

What's making me really laugh hard is that sometimes I hear europeans talking about the advantages of alternative layouts, when those layouts have been optimized with english in mind... Maybe there is one that has been optimized for french, probably Bépo.

yeah i type mostly english, and even a layout optimized for english is better for portuguese than qwerty.

[iFreilicht]

It would be really funny if someone did it the other way around: Design a language that is most comfortable to type with QWERTY

[Auk]

...Design a language that is most comfortable to type with QWERTY

the idea did not catch on: Creating a language for which Qwerty is the most optimal keyboard layout

[xtrafrood]

Beige is the color of my childhood computing experience :<

I built and painted the case for my Phantom beige, in the style of mimicking the Apple Extended Keyboard. I took it apart and cleaned it this morning.
I intend to go buy paint later today to repaint it, but I might select another hue of beige.

I am also considering beige-modding my newly acquired Wooting One with a top shell made from a Cherry G80 keyboard because I am not a fan of floating keys.

Pictures soon?

[Niomosy]

Beige, at this point, would honestly be a refreshing break from the X-on-white caps.  Though even then, I'm still not big on the color and was happy to escape the era of beige computing.  Pity, too, as computers were pretty colorful for a time.  Just check out some of the old DEC PDP or Data General S series stuff.

[Merranza]

Beige is not a color. Beige is an ugly color. No one, except computer makers use beige, unless they just want to mess with us. Shame about all that beige.

Well, beige is Noctua's primary color scheme

[antquinonez]

Beige, at this point, would honestly be a refreshing break from the X-on-white caps.  Though even then, I'm still not big on the color and was happy to escape the era of beige computing.  Pity, too, as computers were pretty colorful for a time.  Just check out some of the old DEC PDP or Data General S series stuff.

Thanks for the information. Those are some beautiful objects. I'd love to get my hands on IBM's thoughts on computer design. It's so austere, very basic, designed  (of course) but very restrained.

[Niomosy]

Beige, at this point, would honestly be a refreshing break from the X-on-white caps.  Though even then, I'm still not big on the color and was happy to escape the era of beige computing.  Pity, too, as computers were pretty colorful for a time.  Just check out some of the old DEC PDP or Data General S series stuff.

Thanks for the information. Those are some beautiful objects. I'd love to get my hands on IBM's thoughts on computer design. It's so austere, very basic, designed  (of course) but very restrained.

IBM's thoughts on computer design (or maybe I'm more thinking of operating system design) are somewhat bizarre.  They can get nit-picky as all hell (looking at you, AIX and some of your upgrade tools) or just bizarre (TSO as a slap-on to MVS that still carries on to this day in z/OS while other mainframe OSes figured out in the 70s how to create a well-integrated user shell and every mini-computer OS seems to have started with that in mind).

Their physical design has never been stupendous though it's certainly gotten better since the old beige of the 80s that carried into the 90s.  They went with the trend of dropping beige for black and have mostly stuck with that.  Some of the minicomputer makers from the 70s were doing better stuff there.  Also look at Cray and SGI for some interesting designs.

[zslane]

IBM was as conservative a company as you could find in the 20th century. Their design aesthetic ranged from "industrial" to "corporate", which loosely translates into 100% functionality and 0% style. Their products were, by and large, wonderfully engineered but tediously bland to look at.

When they decided to enter the desktop market in 1981, they wanted above all else for the 5150 to be taken seriously by serious business entities. They knew that anything with flashy colors would be viewed with suspicion and disdain by corporate customers, and so they figured that the blander they could make things, the more offices would buy them. They were probably right.

Moreover, faced with ever-increasing marketplace pressures to lower costs, IBM's engineering excellence was compromised (e.g., buckling spring switches instead of beam spring switches, cheap dyesub cylindrical keycaps instead of beautiful double-shot spherical keycaps, etc.), leaving no reason to actually like their products. By 1983 nobody bought IBM because their keyboards were a joy to look at or use, but because they were part of the "IBM compatibility at all costs" mentality that took hold in the '80s.

The fact that anyone today likes or celebrates the IBM desktop aesthetic from the '80s is just plain bizarre. It's an aesthetic only another machine could love.

[tp4tissue]

IBM was as conservative a company as you could find in the 20th century. Their design aesthetic ranged from "industrial" to "corporate", which loosely translates into 100% functionality and 0% style. Their products were, by and large, wonderfully engineered but tediously bland to look at.

When they decided to enter the desktop market in 1981, they wanted above all else for the 5150 to be taken seriously by serious business entities. They knew that anything with flashy colors would be viewed with suspicion and disdain by corporate customers, and so they figured that the blander they could make things, the more offices would buy them. They were probably right.

Moreover, faced with ever-increasing marketplace pressures to lower costs, IBM's engineering excellence was compromised (e.g., buckling spring switches instead of beam spring switches, cheap dyesub cylindrical keycaps instead of beautiful double-shot spherical keycaps, etc.), leaving no reason to actually like their products. By 1983 nobody bought IBM because their keyboards were a joy to look at or use, but because they were part of the "IBM compatibility at all costs" mentality that took hold in the '80s.

The fact that anyone today likes or celebrates the IBM desktop aesthetic from the '80s is just plain bizarre. It's an aesthetic only another machine could love.

You're blending too much personal opinion into the state of history which concretely happened.


When computers costs were very high, their Function was paramount, no business owners cared what these things looked like.  Does it improve productivity, does it reduce cost. 


It's only a RECENT past 20 year phenomenon that low income americans could get a computer..



We went from having clothes AT ALL,  to wearing them for fun ..



Beige served a very different purpose, and their form is emblematic of a time when Utility prevailed over superficiality.


That is the root of the Beige Box celebration..

[Niomosy]

IBM was as conservative a company as you could find in the 20th century. Their design aesthetic ranged from "industrial" to "corporate", which loosely translates into 100% functionality and 0% style. Their products were, by and large, wonderfully engineered but tediously bland to look at.

When they decided to enter the desktop market in 1981, they wanted above all else for the 5150 to be taken seriously by serious business entities. They knew that anything with flashy colors would be viewed with suspicion and disdain by corporate customers, and so they figured that the blander they could make things, the more offices would buy them. They were probably right.

Moreover, faced with ever-increasing marketplace pressures to lower costs, IBM's engineering excellence was compromised (e.g., buckling spring switches instead of beam spring switches, cheap dyesub cylindrical keycaps instead of beautiful double-shot spherical keycaps, etc.), leaving no reason to actually like their products. By 1983 nobody bought IBM because their keyboards were a joy to look at or use, but because they were part of the "IBM compatibility at all costs" mentality that took hold in the '80s.

The fact that anyone today likes or celebrates the IBM desktop aesthetic from the '80s is just plain bizarre. It's an aesthetic only another machine could love.

You're blending too much personal opinion into the state of history which concretely happened.


When computers costs were very high, their Function was paramount, no business owners cared what these things looked like.  Does it improve productivity, does it reduce cost. 


It's only a RECENT past 20 year phenomenon that low income americans could get a computer..



We went from having clothes AT ALL,  to wearing them for fun ..



Beige served a very different purpose, and their form is emblematic of a time when Utility prevailed over superficiality.


That is the root of the Beige Box celebration..

I think that's still a bit off.  As I've pointed out, looking at some of the DEC PDP and Data General S and Nova servers from the ~16-bit era servers, you can see plenty of colorful options for the data center.  IBM, on the other hand, was about as bland as bland can be with others like HP following suit.

For desktops, it's another matter.  They really only came into play in the 80s when beige server computing was becoming the norm.  Just look at the servers from DEC, Data General, and many others during the early 32-bit server era.  No longer very interesting to look at but more powerful.  Things remained that way until some point in the 90s during the Black Everything revolution which is still pretty popular to this day.

[Riverman]

Beige is the color of my childhood computing experience :<

I built and painted the case for my Phantom beige, in the style of mimicking the Apple Extended Keyboard. I took it apart and cleaned it this morning.
I intend to go buy paint later today to repaint it, but I might select another hue of beige.

I am also considering beige-modding my newly acquired Wooting One with a top shell made from a Cherry G80 keyboard because I am not a fan of floating keys.

The Apple Extended Keyboard was never beige, it was light grey, but leave them out in the sun for a lot of years and they'll definitely start to look beige.  I think Apple's products from that period still look pretty modern today, precisely because they're not beige.

[zslane]

When computers costs were very high, their Function was paramount, no business owners cared what these things looked like. 

Indeed. IBM's primary customers were businesses, not human beings. Businesses large enough to afford IBM hardware operated according to an accepted corporate groupthink that, as you say, placed productivity and cost above all other concerns. Back then the connection between productivity and the contentedness of employees was not widely recognized or well understood.

But that doesn't explain why IBM couldn't make their products more colorful, since doing so would have had no negative impact on functionality or cost. The reason their products were as bland as they could make them was because it helped reinforce the impression that their products were serious products for serious-minded professionals. The prevailing corporate aesthetic was formal, colorless, and uniform. It governed dress codes as well as office furniture and equipment aesthetics.

There's a reason why Apple's famous "1984" commercial resonated the way it did. It tapped into the essential existential truth about the dominant computer culture of that era.

[Findecanor]

The Apple Extended Keyboard was never beige, it was light grey, but leave them out in the sun for a lot of years and they'll definitely start to look beige.

I know. It is not a straight replica, more like "inspired by" in its curving shape. The paint I had been using was actually more matched to the darker grey of Cherry's grey modifier keycaps. What I really wanted to match was the original beige colour of the plastic of the BTC case I built it from - it being somewhere in-between the cream white alphas and grey mods.
I tried putting an enamelled Cherry pin in the upper right corner of the border, like the AEKII, but did not like the look.

It is a bit difficult to find a actual beige spray paint to - they are either too bright (cream white), too yellow or without saturation at all.
I saw tips matching to Apple's colours, that "Montana Gold Sahara Yellow" would match the 1977 Apple II and "Montana Gold Cream White" would match the Apple Platinum. I picked up the former but I think it is too yellow - too much matching yellowed plastic than the original colour.

[zslane]

Yeah, what people around here call "biege" is really just warm gray. Everything I see (in these forums) strongly suggests that most people have very little quality color sense, which even extends to the words they use to label colors.

[antquinonez]

Yeah, what people around here call "biege" is really just warm gray. Everything I see (in these forums) strongly suggests that most people have very little quality color sense, which even extends to the words they use to label colors.

Beige. I know it when I see it.

[tp4tissue]

Yeah, what people around here call "biege" is really just warm gray. Everything I see (in these forums) strongly suggests that most people have very little quality color sense, which even extends to the words they use to label colors.

Beige. I know it when I see it.

it's a slight yellow-ee white  or brownish white..

[zslane]

Beige tints:

[antquinonez]

Beige tints:

(Attachment Link)

50 Shades of Beige. If your keyboard matches the color of your granny's underpants, you have a beige keyboard.

[zslane]

Whether or not one likes beige is, of course, a slightly separate matter. But at the very least one ought to understand what beige is (and is not) before passing judgment on it. Model M keyboards (and their clones) are not beige. The HHKB is not beige. The keycap sets for those boards are not beige or "dual beige" or "classic beige" or beige anything. They are all variations of gray.

[xtrafrood]

Whether or not one likes beige is, of course, a slightly separate matter. But at the very least one ought to understand what beige is (and is not) before passing judgment on it. Model M keyboards (and their clones) are not beige. The HHKB is not beige. The keycap sets for those boards are not beige or "dual beige" or "classic beige" or beige anything. They are all variations of gray.

I'm not a beige connoisseur but I think the old IBM clone Commodore PC-II or PC-III my family owned (w/ matching Commodore monitor) fits category rather well. 

[zslane]

Possibly. It's hard to tell from photos posted online. Some photos make it look beige, others just warm gray. The Commodore-64 was definitely beige though.

[Findecanor]

The Commodore machines: 64, 128 and Amiga line have had different hues of beige and cream white. The original Commodore 64 was warm beige, darker than the Vic 20 that came before it.
Later C64 revisions had brighter beige. I owned one late breadbox C64 with the brighter case and an Amiga 500 which I think had the same hue, and I remember both of them as being a kind of beige when they were new.
The Amiga 1000 was definitely cream white, and that cream white came back with the Amiga 3000 and used for later models.

I also have a Commodore PC keyboard from the '80s, and that one is definitely beige, also on the inside where it didn't get much sun.

[alienman82]

removed.

[zslane]

Pretty much all SA/GMK sets especially lately are freaking ugly.

I sort of agree with you, though I am a bit curious what sets you don't find ugly.

[pixelpusher]

I like MX blues (especially with DSA caps).  They might be my favorite switch 

[pixelpusher]

Pretty much all SA/GMK sets especially lately are freaking ugly.

MX browns are great

Infilled POM is so freaking cheap, blank POM isn't worth it to me

What do you think of Nautilus?  What about Skidolcha?  I think they're both beautiful, just wondering what is ugly in your book

[ideus]

Pretty much all SA/GMK sets especially lately are freaking ugly.

Of course; but, why do you bother to enlighten us, keyboard freaks, with your deep understanding of beauty?

[SBJ]

I like MX blues (especially with DSA caps).  They might be my favorite switch 

I was more a fan of blues than I expected to be.
I haven't tried them with DSA caps, I do have a DSA set though, so I guess it's worth a shot.

Only tried DSA on MX Clears so far, not really a fan. It was alright, just not spectacular.

[pixelpusher]

I like MX blues (especially with DSA caps).  They might be my favorite switch 

I was more a fan of blues than I expected to be.
I haven't tried them with DSA caps, I do have a DSA set though, so I guess it's worth a shot.

Only tried DSA on MX Clears so far, not really a fan. It was alright, just not spectacular.

Try it out.  Do eeet!

[alienman82]

removed.

[Niomosy]

Pretty much all SA/GMK sets especially lately are freaking ugly.

Bring on the brightly colored, unicorn vomit sets.  I find it more interesting the X-on-white alphas or X-on-gray alphas that regularly come though.  SA Lime?  Oh hey, some cool gre.... oh, it's green alphas on gray caps.  Meh.

[dante]

MX browns are great

I'm beginning to agree.  I started with MX Browns and I find myself returning to them more than I'd like to admit.

It makes me curious about trying out the new Kailh Box Browns.

[zslane]

Pretty much all SA/GMK sets especially lately are freaking ugly.

Bring on the brightly colored, unicorn vomit sets.

Yeah, a lot of folks seem to think that colored legends look good. Most of the time, they look simply atrocious.