105-key (EU) mechanical keyboard for a newbie

[Mirek028]

Browsing through GH and other keyboard sites it seems to me that two things usually apply:
- The boards discussed are mostly tenkeyless
- The boards have an ANSI keyboard layout

Searching for a new keyboard I am not sure what to think of the TKL boards. Though they look nice I use the numpad quite often in some of my apps.
But I am more concerned of the ANSI layout (as I've tried it and I constantly end up pressing the "Ž" instead of the return key).

Therefore I believe it would be best to start off with a 105-key EU mechanical keyboard with MX browns. I tried an MX brown keyboard (Logitech g710) in a store and the feel was really good.

But so far it looks to me that the choice for a 105-key EU board is only the Filco Majestouch 2 in EU layout. Does anyone know of any alternatives?

Furthermore, I'd like to have a keyboard in my native layout - with mechanical keyboards exchanging the layout with the caps should be easy. Still I need to find Croatian/Slovenian keycaps, though. In that respect, will all caps for a certain layout fit on all MX keyboards well? (e.g. how "standard" their dimensons are?)
Appreciate any feedback as the mechanical keyboard world is still a bit new to me

[Linkbane]

You might have gotten it backwards, USA uses ANSI (without the extra Z and has a straight enter).
Europe uses ISO which has an L-shaped spacebar and extra keys, including the "|\" to the left of the Z and the small shift keys.

[Mirek028]

Don't think I got it backwards - specifically I am noting the abundance of the ANSI (straight enter, 104 keys full size) keyboard options vs ISO (L shaped enter in two rows, 105 keys full size) and tenkeyless/minimal vs full-size keyboards.

What I would like to find is a full size, 105 key ISO keyboard with MX brown switches, and so far I've come up with the Filco - so I'd like to hear if there are other recommendations.

[tp4tissue]

Don't think I got it backwards - specifically I am noting the abundance of the ANSI (straight enter, 104 keys full size) keyboard options vs ISO (L shaped enter in two rows, 105 keys full size) and tenkeyless/minimal vs full-size keyboards.

What I would like to find is a full size, 105 key ISO keyboard with MX brown switches, and so far I've come up with the Filco - so I'd like to hear if there are other recommendations.

steel series is the big one on that.

[thesentinel]

only board like that is steelseries I believe

[tp4tissue]

HOly crap. . that's cheapppp.. not mx brown though,  also remember the MX brown on the logitech you tried is "dampened"... I recall it already has preinstalled o-rings.

if you are typing "really fast" the mx brown feel more/less like MX-reds... so it's not a 'HUGE" difference.

http://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-6Gv2-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard/dp/B008OQTGBQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382310379&sr=8-1&keywords=steel+series+6gv2

[Linkbane]

Don't think I got it backwards

Well then, perhaps the way you write needs reevaluation.

But I am more concerned of the ANSI layout (as I've tried it and I constantly end up pressing the "Ž" instead of the return key).

You've tried the ANSI layout and it has the 'Ž" key is the only way to interpret your sentence. You've definitely gotten it backwards.

[Mirek028]

Well then, perhaps the way you write needs reevaluation.

Quite possibly so as I am not a native English speaker - pardon me for not being clear.

But I am more concerned of the ANSI layout (as I've tried it and I constantly end up pressing the "Ž" instead of the return key).

You've tried the ANSI layout and it has the 'Ž" key is the only way to interpret your sentence. You've definitely gotten it backwards.

There is a Cro/Slo keyboard layout for the 104 key keyboard which maps the Croatian accented Z to the "|\" key above the Enter. As the 105 key ISO enter spans two rows (and the majority of KBs in use are 105key) I found myself frequently hitting this key while pressing enter on the 104 key. Because of this experience I'd like to get a 105 key, but most of the keyboards I've seen on this forum and around, apart from Filco (and the suggested steelseries above) seem to have a 104 key layout.

[Linkbane]

My bad, didn't know.
Right, I'd go with what the earlier posts suggested, though.

[bazemk1979]

Don't think I got it backwards - specifically I am noting the abundance of the ANSI (straight enter, 104 keys full size) keyboard options vs ISO (L shaped enter in two rows, 105 keys full size) and tenkeyless/minimal vs full-size keyboards.

What I would like to find is a full size, 105 key ISO keyboard with MX brown switches, and so far I've come up with the Filco - so I'd like to hear if there are other recommendations.

Hej momak sta ima!!! Vidim da trazis nesto sto ce trajati I bilo big dobrog kvaliteta, nece biti jeftino to ti obecavam ali kvalitet je dosta dobar jer amerikanci kontroliraju kvaliteta od ove tastature.

Inace evo ti link: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/wasd-v2-105-key-iso-custom-mechanical-keyboard.html

Ta tastatura ti je sa kafenim switches, znam da WASD V2 je odlicna tastatura a i izgleda boljije i malu drugacije od ostalih, progledaj slike I sporedi kako je gruba porvsina plastike, vidi kako ima gumice za uzemljavanje tastature na sve cetri strane I plus na nogama.

Sigurno ce te postarina kostati oko $50, ali vredi. Sretan shopping i pardon na srpski malo mi je zardzao, meni makedonski zardzao a kamoli srpski....

[genkidama]

As I'm also looking into ISO versions of mechanical keyboards, I could suggest ducky. In Germany the ducky keyboards seem cheaper than the Filco (around 20€). And I would say that Filco and ducky keyboards are around the same build quality.
Aren't there any CM Storm keyboards that are full-sized? I'm not quite sure.

[ynrozturk]

Zowie has such a board, with Browns.

[shared4you]

You can try Corsair keyboards. You can check your nearest store in Europe here: http://www.corsair.com/en/wheretobuy/

CM Storm has a good options if you are in Europe: http://www.cmstore.eu/keyboards/

[edit]: QF Ultimate in German, French, Nordic and UK layouts: http://www.cmstore.eu/cm-storm/peripherals/quick-fire-ultimate-cherry-mx-brown-switch/

[viowastaken]

Look into the ducky boards. They have several with ISO layouts and some with thick pbt too. Probably the best bet if you dislike ABS plastic caps as much as I do.

Teraset.net sell duckys, just search for them. You can also send email to ducky@teraset.net

[Mirek028]

Ok, thanks to the replies of kind people it seems that the list got expanded to:
- Filco
- Ducky (which ducky would anyone suggest?)
- WASD V2

I'm all for (decent) backlighting but Ducky Shine 3 looks like a bit too much... not that much into particular gaming features - my goal for the keyboard is heavy typing work:)
Any further suggestions would be helpful .

[genkidama]

For a normal backlit keyboard from ducky I would suggest the Ducky Zero DK2108S, this should be an "entry-level" mech with backlit as it is advertised on duckys website.

[Mirek028]

After some more indepth reviews, i'm close to narrowing it down to WASD V2 as:
- they have MX browns in a 105 Key ISO layout
- they apparently have the option to make the key layout based on an external file (.cdr, .ai, or .pdf), which gives me the opportunity to simply define the Cro layout as a custom file even if they don't offer it directly

bazemk1979 already recommended it (Hvala!) - but is there any other general feedback on the WASD?
Thanks in advance.

[bazemk1979]

After some more indepth reviews, i'm close to narrowing it down to WASD V2 as:
- they have MX browns in a 105 Key ISO layout
- they apparently have the option to make the key layout based on an external file (.cdr, .ai, or .pdf), which gives me the opportunity to simply define the Cro layout as a custom file even if they don't offer it directly

bazemk1979 already recommended it (Hvala!) - but is there any other general feedback on the WASD?
Thanks in advance.

your welcome dude, all general feedback here on GH have been nothing but positive, all feedback on their website is 5 stars only. I don't own one but I recommend it because of all the positive feedback I see, that's why I'm considering a barebone version with greens later down the road for me.

BTW yes you can have custom keycaps engraved, I see why not for you to be able to have maeby 2 letters per key so you can have one for English and one for Serbian language, also there is dip switch for more options on the back of the board. In my eyes its the perfect non aluminum board, I wish it was aluminum lol

[Mirek028]

Almost done editing the layout for croatian and I'll probably bite the bullet soon enough on the WASD V2... unless anybody has anything to say about it to prevent me from doing so;D.

Does anybody have any experience with the WASD V2?

[viowastaken]

It's hard to say as there is no single correct answer or preference. Personally I'd never consider buying a keyboard with ABS keycaps unless I had a spare PBT set to replace all the keys with. It sounds like your biggest priority is the layout rather than the keycap plastic, so if that is the case it sounds like you've found your setup.

[LouisHjelmslev]

Just my two pence here.
Up to only about a year ago, I was in the same boat as you: Looking for ISO in an ANSI filled world. Given that I had committed to find/collect/mod/...use mechanical keyboards, I bit the bullet and just started getting used to ANSI. Haven't looked back since. ANSI is turning out to be more than ok.

[rowdy]

Going ANSI also gives you a considerably greater range of custom keycaps that are available.

Some group buys include some ISO keys, but there are so many ISO options that inevitably someone ends up disappointed.

[genkidama]

For me I just can't get myself to like the ANSI layout. I tried it multiple times for more than 2-3 days where I was typing a lot or tried to type a lot on the keyboard. But still, instead of hitting the enter key a hit the key above it and it drove me crazy.
I would stick to ISO until I reach a level where it really is better to have an ANSI layout, e.g. keycaps and other stuff that are most likely only for ANSI.

[Mirek028]

Seems that WASD V2 Mx Brown stock is depleted and won't be back for a few months so it's back to square one...

I might still order Croatian caps but I'll probably look into the other options for the keyboard. Leaning towards the Filco currently. Any comment on the Ducky Shine 2/3?

[rowdy]

Ducky Shine are great - they are usually one of the first keyboards people recommend if someone wants backlighting.

Available with lots of different LED colours, different MX switches, TKL and full size, even available in ISO AFAICR.

I have two - both are great!

[dorkvader]

I recommend a model M. You can get it with the ISO style enter (I always thought it looked like a 7) or even with "big" enter keys (like many asian keyboards used this in the 1980's and 1990's) from a wheelwriter or AT model F keyboard. What remains is to have a controller or an interpreter (like a soarer) that will finalize the output to what your computer will want for your language. That and keycaps (which may be a difficulty: you might have to ask unicomp to make you some custom for your language)

All that said, you can get the layout you want, and many people here like model M keyboards. Also 104 / 105 key is much easier to get in buckling spring.

[Mirek028]

A model M is definitely something. My high school had a computing cabinet fitted with IBM systems and model Ms (in CRO layout, too). Felt rather different from anything i've typed on, ever. Don't know what happened to them since then, probably got recycled or something.

 But I remember it as a bit too loud. Also, I'm not all too keen on adapting it.

Therefore I'll probably get an MX brown board. So far I'm leaning towards the filco. The keyboard company ships them within the EU, which is great because there is no added customs tax (and the VAT is lower than in Croatia). After a bit of calculation it is probably a better option than any keyboard from a non-EU vendor because the customs will slap on VAT and an indeterminate amount of customs tax on any equipment bought from outside the EU. And it's available in an ISO layout.

After that, just to get some nice croatian keycaps...

[Mirek028]

My filco MJ2 just arrived. I must say i'm impressed with the build quality, but more so with the typing feel - something completely different from rubber domes and feels more fluent to type on. Will see how it progresses in a few days' time.
I wish to thank everyone for the kind advice and suggestions - my guess is that this will not be my last (and only) mechanical keyboard.
 

[dorkvader]

My first cherry MX mechanical was a WASD V1 104 key in browns. I'm still using it now (albeit with different keycaps). It was a great new feeling to be sure.

Best of luck finding or making some croatian layout keycaps. They aren't common.

[rowdy]

My filco MJ2 just arrived. I must say i'm impressed with the build quality, but more so with the typing feel - something completely different from rubber domes and feels more fluent to type on. Will see how it progresses in a few days' time.
I wish to thank everyone for the kind advice and suggestions - my guess is that this will not be my last (and only) mechanical keyboard.
 

Congratulations!

After you've been using a mechanical board for, say, a month, try switching back to a rubber dome and see what you think.

[Mirek028]

I feel the difference only after a few hours of use (coding mostly) today, I can't even begin to grasp how will I feel after a month.
However, I will probably need to switch keyboards every day anyway - at work and with my laptop I have rubber dome keyboards (although with scissor switches both).
I'm astonished though, after less than a proper day of use I'm already beginning to notice that I don't bottom out as much as when I regularly type.

[LouisHjelmslev]

My filco MJ2 just arrived. I must say i'm impressed with the build quality, but more so with the typing feel - something completely different from rubber domes and feels more fluent to type on. Will see how it progresses in a few days' time.
I wish to thank everyone for the kind advice and suggestions - my guess is that this will not be my last (and only) mechanical keyboard.
 

Congratulations!

After you've been using a mechanical board for, say, a month, try switching back to a rubber dome and see what you think.

I have to say that after typing on my mechanical's, I recall the first time I used membrane again. It actually wasn't so bad! Not better, but not necessarily worse, just different. The build construction was definitely inferior by a mile, but the typing feeling was, again, just different.

[rowdy]

I feel the difference only after a few hours of use (coding mostly) today, I can't even begin to grasp how will I feel after a month.
However, I will probably need to switch keyboards every day anyway - at work and with my laptop I have rubber dome keyboards (although with scissor switches both).
I'm astonished though, after less than a proper day of use I'm already beginning to notice that I don't bottom out as much as when I regularly type.

Next you will be wanting a second mechanical board for work.

[catnipz0098]

Why can't everybody use one layout?

[rowdy]

Why can't everybody use one layout?

Because there are too many different layouts available.

Now if manufacturers only made one layout ...

[genkidama]

I feel the difference only after a few hours of use (coding mostly) today, I can't even begin to grasp how will I feel after a month.
However, I will probably need to switch keyboards every day anyway - at work and with my laptop I have rubber dome keyboards (although with scissor switches both).
I'm astonished though, after less than a proper day of use I'm already beginning to notice that I don't bottom out as much as when I regularly type.

Next you will be wanting a second mechanical board for work.

I already want one for my work, although I don't own one right now but I ordered today. YAY
Probably I want a 75% one.

Why can't everybody use one layout?

Because there are too many different layouts available.

Now if manufacturers only made one layout ...

I'm really curious to how dvorak and other layouts work for me. But I'll stick to ISO for now and maybe switch to ANSI as ISO is not that "supported" throughout the geekhackers world :]

[Mirek028]

My first cherry MX mechanical was a WASD V1 104 key in browns. I'm still using it now (albeit with different keycaps). It was a great new feeling to be sure.

Best of luck finding or making some croatian layout keycaps. They aren't common.

Based on how my typing on the new board is working out so far I might skip croatian keycaps altogether and go for blank ones - I couldn't have known beforehand but I have the impression that my typing on the mechanical board is so much more precise that I don't have the need to look at the keyboard at all. Had I known, I might have bought a ninja instead of the regular filco.
The only part where I do need key legends is probably for some special characters not frequently used.

I'm really curious to how dvorak and other layouts work for me. But I'll stick to ISO for now and maybe switch to ANSI as ISO is not that "supported" throughout the geekhackers world :]

ISO qwertz works best for me so I wouldn't change. As customizations go, I'll probably replace the original filco caps with something more durable somewhere down the line.
I have the UK layout board and even without the CRO legends I don't have any problems typing.
Don't know how dvorak or colemak would work out for slavic languages. Aren't those layouts language dependent?

[genkidama]

Don't know how dvorak or colemak would work out for slavic languages. Aren't those layouts language dependent?

Unfortunately I don't know, I just read about these different keyboard styles. Someone told me some find it mor "natural" to write as it should minimize (?) your hand movement to a minimum.

I'll also stick to ISO for as long as possible, it's just too widespread here in germany so adapting to ANSI or other layouts is already out of the question.

[Mirek028]

Just some follow up and impressions.

My Filco MJ2 with MX browns arrived on Nov 4th. Since then it's a typing rhapsody as the difference in quality in respect to any keyboard I have used before is absolutely stunning.
The board itself looks built solid like a tank, and sits firmly on the desk. I like the feel of the brown switches and I think they were not a bad choice.

After three weeks, I notice two significant improvements:
a) with the old keyboards, I frequently had periods where I had to look at the board to be sure where I'm at. (I blame Logitech's quasi-ergonomic layouts for this). With the filco, I almost never look at the keyboard while I type.

b) The typing speed. On the old keyboards, a typing test would yield me about 46 WPM tops. With the filco I go up to 62 and usually stay around 55-57. In three weeks, this is a revolution, from my standpoint.

Overall I'm very pleased with the decision to get a mechanical keyboard and everyone who said that I won't be unhappy with a Filco is definitely right. In the last three weeks it has produced lines and lines of code and a fair amount of text, and it will do much much more.

The ugly part is going back to the membrane keyboard each day at work. In respect to the filco board, I almost have to fight with it. I'm almost at the point of buying a QFR (even if TKL does not suit me completely) and carrying it to work simply to replace the membrane one...

[Linkbane]

Congrats on the new board. A few things; Dvorak does have a few language-specific forms, I think there's Bepo for French and a Swedish Dvorak, but it will increase alternation and decrease hand movements in almost any language over Qwerty.

Seeing that you code, popular suggestions are getting a compact keyboard (like the FC660 series) or TKL with a separate numpad. This can be expensive, though, and you might like the layout of the TK, a TKL with a numpad and integrated arrow/nav keys.

[terran5992]

Just some follow up and impressions.

My Filco MJ2 with MX browns arrived on Nov 4th. Since then it's a typing rhapsody as the difference in quality in respect to any keyboard I have used before is absolutely stunning.
The board itself looks built solid like a tank, and sits firmly on the desk. I like the feel of the brown switches and I think they were not a bad choice.

After three weeks, I notice two significant improvements:
a) with the old keyboards, I frequently had periods where I had to look at the board to be sure where I'm at. (I blame Logitech's quasi-ergonomic layouts for this). With the filco, I almost never look at the keyboard while I type.

b) The typing speed. On the old keyboards, a typing test would yield me about 46 WPM tops. With the filco I go up to 62 and usually stay around 55-57. In three weeks, this is a revolution, from my standpoint.

Overall I'm very pleased with the decision to get a mechanical keyboard and everyone who said that I won't be unhappy with a Filco is definitely right. In the last three weeks it has produced lines and lines of code and a fair amount of text, and it will do much much more.

The ugly part is going back to the membrane keyboard each day at work. In respect to the filco board, I almost have to fight with it. I'm almost at the point of buying a QFR (even if TKL does not suit me completely) and carrying it to work simply to replace the membrane one...

Good choice going with the filco. Real solid board