UPDATE: Massdrop vs Input_Club, Innocent Until Proven Otherwise..

[tp4tissue]

Official Update From Input_Club:



Link:

https://input.club/official-halo-switch-statement/


Contract Excerpt:

Sec. 3(c)(ii)(2)(c)

Limited License Back. Massdrop does hereby grant Designer a limited, non-exclusive and revocable license to use Massdrop’s Joint Inventions solely to the extent necessary for Designer to (i) perform Designer’s obligations under this Agreement; and (ii) to request manufacture of, and purchase, Products solely from the manufacturer designated in Exhibit C, and to sell products incorporating such Products to end users. Input Club (itself or with or through other entities) agrees to not distribute or sell such Products to resellers or distributors.

END


Input_Club has already stated that they are committed to releasing the full-contract for public view upon Massdrop's agreement.

-Quote: We would be happy to release the entire contract for everyone to see, but it is Massdrop’s contract so we don’t want to do that unilaterally.-






According to this excerpt,  it would seem Massdrop did indeed grant Input_Club the right to source and sell the switch. (limited to direct-sell, Not reseller or distributor)

However,  there is that _revocable_ word in there.  Unsure of how either party is interpreting that word without more context.

Usually, if the contract is thorough, it may also contain the conditions or limitations under which the license back would be _revoked_.

If not,  then Massdrop has the right to revoke the license back for any reason.


--It would be similar to modern employment contracts that say the employer can fire you for any reason
 
      ----Except... for being, ugly, phat ,gender orientation, skinny, etc..  (state/federal)


---  We have a better view of this now,  but the community still must await more information before we come to accord as to -The Injustice-







There is still the Dispute on the NAME ONLY aspect of the (HALO)  Switch..  There is no contract excerpt released to describe -this- specific contention.




___________________________________________________________________________________

Background Information:


The latest Drama hack, is a very scathing remark against Massdrop



Input_Club, claims that Massdrop is in a breach of contract..

Input_ Club, claims they were under the assumption that they would have license back of their designed halo-switch.  A switch that Massdrop has Co-Invested in..


According to Massdrop,  it would seem that the original contract with Input Club only stipulates that Input Club would have access to the switch under specific conditions (as replacement parts and as standalone switches via their website).



User -shadowku-'s original thread, has framed the situation in negative light with a Biased thread title and very polarizing opening post..  He seems to be a reasonable fellow and has since made adjustments, but the subsequent discussion has already slanted...  !


The pitch fork should not continue in this manner.. as neither party has posted any of the actual contract information.



At the moment,   It is all emotion,  and no fortifying document has come forward..

Neither Massdrop, nor Input Club





Just post the contract, and the community can read for ourselves..


If this was an actual contract written by actual lawyers,  there should be very little confusion.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________


--from Massdrop--


In our agreement for the HALO switch, Input Club requested an exception to our exclusive distribution rights to allow them to offer switches directly to end customers as replacement parts and as standalone switches via their website. This was a reasonable request, so we agreed and wrote it into the agreement. After that, Input Club launched their kickstarter campaign for the Whitefox, offering HALO switches as an option.

This was against the terms of our agreement, so we reached out to let them know and discuss ways to move forward. Their response was to tell us they would make their own HALO switch, to demand that we change the name of the HALO switch, and to demand that we inform all K-Type purchasers that they were not going to receive authentic HALO switches. At this point they directed us to their lawyer and required that all future communication go through legal channels.


--From Input Club--


..worked with Massdrop to finance the physical tooling that allows them to go to mass production. We assigned Massdrop the patent rights in exchange for a royalty and a “license-back” that we believe allows us to source the switches for use in keyboards. But when we tried to order switches for the WhiteFox/NightFox, Massdrop would not let us source them. They then claimed to own the “Halo” name...


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________



There has to be very specific language to detail this..   we would like to see some documentation...



There is community reputation at stake...

Let's wait for the supporting Documentation..  and put down the pitchforks...!!

[wodan]

Split-ups like this never end well and I think both sides are hurt and kicking.

[tp4tissue]

Split-ups like this never end well and I think both sides are hurt and kicking.

That's why we have contracts in the first place.. hahahaha..


You are right -wodan- they should not have done any of the drama post, if they could've settled this by designing a new switch.. hahahaha..

My guess is, they do not have a PR manager..

In venting their anger,  comes the mob..

[SpAmRaY]

As a previous very prominent member of this forum told me once, business is business and it isn't personal, this after taking my money and not fulfilling the order as promised.

Personally I have issues separating the two, especially in a community like this.

[tp4tissue]

As a previous very prominent member of this forum told me once, business is business and it isn't personal, this after taking my money and not fulfilling the order as promised.

Personally I have issues separating the two, especially in a community like this.

Your thoughts Spam.. Cylon business owners and lawyers..   They must have a very good chrome polish..  space travel rated I hurd   

[SpAmRaY]

As a previous very prominent member of this forum told me once, business is business and it isn't personal, this after taking my money and not fulfilling the order as promised.

Personally I have issues separating the two, especially in a community like this.

Your thoughts Spam.. Cylon business owners and lawyers..   They must have a very good chrome polish..  space travel rated I hurd   

Anytime lawyers get involved, Cylon or not, things get messy and yes shiny usually wins.

[lekashman]

Posted this over on Reddit, posting it here as well -

We will be going through this with legal counsel and posting a response as quickly as is possible. We have several disagreements with statements made here, and depending on what documents we are able to share, it is our belief that you will agree with our position.

However, that is a lot to assume, so please let us time to meet with our lawyer and post a full and accurate response.

[tp4tissue]

Posted this over on Reddit, posting it here as well -

We will be going through this with legal counsel and posting a response as quickly as is possible. We have several disagreements with statements made here, and depending on what documents we are able to share, it is our belief that you will agree with our position.

However, that is a lot to assume, so please let us time to meet with our lawyer and post a full and accurate response.

Absolutely,  take your time.

The only reason for this new thread, is to remind the community, that we can only remain IMPARTIAL,  until more information comes forward



Because there is a Community Reputation at stake here..    It was unfair to run the -Previous- thread on this matter, because the OP and Portrayal of facts were highly polarizing...


We wait !!...

[livingspeedbump]

At the end of the day both parties are going to come out looking pretty ****ty, sadly, if things keep getting handled this way. I think matters like this should be solved in private. Even partial releases of contracts will only paint an incomplete picture at best and can unfairly swing peoples views and opinions.

I can think of many better ways to handle this. Mainly starting with friends discussing things over a beer. In this case, I don't see why this didn't work.

[_haru]

Well this one hell of a clustercuss

Following

[tp4tissue]

At the end of the day both parties are going to come out looking pretty ****ty, sadly, if things keep getting handled this way. I think matters like this should be solved in private. Even partial releases of contracts will only paint an incomplete picture at best and can unfairly swing peoples views and opinions.

I can think of many better ways to handle this. Mainly starting with friends discussing things over a beer. In this case, I don't see why this didn't work.

Totally agree that the drama should not have occurred..   But now that it's here..    sigh.....

This thread only reminds the community to HOLD HORSES until we have more information... 



The two parties involved still has the option at this point to resolve this matter amicably, shake hands,  and retain community trust on both sides..


I'm not sure Input Club has a PR manager,   

------------it's dangerous to ONLY talk to lawyers,  because they almost always exclusively want you to FIGHT, that's their meal ticket after all..


Be wary of Lawyers is the take away for now.. !!  hahahahaha



Weigh in with the PR manager in all circumstances, 

[0100010]

[clee290]

At the end of the day both parties are going to come out looking pretty ****ty, sadly, if things keep getting handled this way. I think matters like this should be solved in private. Even partial releases of contracts will only paint an incomplete picture at best and can unfairly swing peoples views and opinions.

I can think of many better ways to handle this. Mainly starting with friends discussing things over a beer. In this case, I don't see why this didn't work.

Completely agree. I don't see a reason for I:C to go public about this other than get the community on their side first and use the community as a way to pressure MD. People already have a distaste for MD because of all the delays, errors, etc., so, to me, it just looks like I:C is just trying to get the hate-ball rolling (quicker).

This should be handled in private. Announce it publicly when an actual agreement has been made.

[tp4tissue]

At the end of the day both parties are going to come out looking pretty ****ty, sadly, if things keep getting handled this way. I think matters like this should be solved in private. Even partial releases of contracts will only paint an incomplete picture at best and can unfairly swing peoples views and opinions.

I can think of many better ways to handle this. Mainly starting with friends discussing things over a beer. In this case, I don't see why this didn't work.

Completely agree. I don't see a reason for I:C to go public about this other than get the community on their side first and use the community as a way to pressure MD. People already have a distaste for MD because of all the delays, errors, etc., so, to me, it just looks like I:C is just trying to get the hate-ball rolling (quicker).

This should be handled in private. Announce it publicly when an actual agreement has been made.

clee290,   We do not know that..

It's unfair to say,  Input_Club  started rolling the H8 Ball..


This is all uncertain until Some Documentation comes forward ,  REGARDLESS  of the emotionally driven posts by either party ...!!

[clee290]

clee290,   We do not know that..

It's unfair to say,  Input_Club  started rolling the H8 Ball..


This is all uncertain until Some Documentation comes forward ,  REGARDLESS  of the emotionally driven posts by either party ...!!

They didn't start the hate-ball, but got it moving quicker. Like I said, people were already starting to dislike MD because of delays, errors (people getting 2 right-side Ergodox?!), etc., but when I:C posted this, people are now wanting to boycott MD.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/703kbk/wtf_whitefoxnitefox_and_massdrop/dn03dz7/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/703kbk/wtf_whitefoxnitefox_and_massdrop/dn03n2q/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/703kbk/wtf_whitefoxnitefox_and_massdrop/dn04tpj/

Sure, it's unfair for me to assume I:C's true intent, but it's also unfair to MD for I:C to go public about this instead of dealing with it amongst themselves. But hey, go public and deal with public opinion.

[tp4tissue]

They didn't start the hate-ball, but got it moving quicker. Like I said, people were already starting to dislike MD because of delays, errors (people getting 2 right-side Ergodox?!), etc., but when I:C posted this, people are now wanting to boycott MD.

Sure, it's unfair for me to assume I:C's true intent, but it's also unfair to MD for I:C to go public about this instead of dealing with it amongst themselves. But hey, go public and deal with public opinion.

Ok, clee290, We are in agreement that this was not handled as well as it could've been.


Let's just wait for any official write up,  without getting into m0ar h8

[Lepidus]

At the end of the day both parties are going to come out looking pretty ****ty, sadly, if things keep getting handled this way. I think matters like this should be solved in private. Even partial releases of contracts will only paint an incomplete picture at best and can unfairly swing peoples views and opinions.

I can think of many better ways to handle this. Mainly starting with friends discussing things over a beer. In this case, I don't see why this didn't work.

Completely agree. I don't see a reason for I:C to go public about this other than get the community on their side first and use the community as a way to pressure MD. People already have a distaste for MD because of all the delays, errors, etc., so, to me, it just looks like I:C is just trying to get the hate-ball rolling (quicker).

This should be handled in private. Announce it publicly when an actual agreement has been made.

Well, they obviously had to, since they are selling a product with HALOs and were stopped from fulfilling the orders. What did you expect, replacing switch model/name without any justification?

[shadowku]

User -shadowku-, has attempted to frame the situation in negative light with clearly Biased thread title and very polarizing opening post..  Was it intentional,   we don't know... !

Thanks...
You're quite dramatic about this issue.

[tp4tissue]

User -shadowku-, has attempted to frame the situation in negative light with clearly Biased thread title and very polarizing opening post..  Was it intentional,   we don't know... !

Thanks...
You're quite dramatic about this issue.

Hahahahaahahah I conferred with you in the other thread,  u are right I will change  that descriptor.

I gotchu don't worry

[dante]

The sad part is the Halo will probably end up as an underwhelming switch.

aka If it's too good to be true...

[Zobeid Zuma]

I wonder if anybody who ordered Kaihua Blue switches could get their keyboards first?

[SpAmRaY]

I wonder if anybody who ordered Kaihua Blue switches could get their keyboards first?

[zslane]

We live in the Social Media Age. Everything gets hashed out in that space now. Get used to it.

Maybe some good will come from this. Maybe this will give I:C an opportunity to design an improved Halo switch that is internally dampened. Bottom-out and upstroke noise is a sin against all that is holy and good. The idea of a purely mechanical switch that feels like a Topre switch is brilliant, but it needs to be just as quiet and, dare I say, as "thocky" as possible to qualify as World's Finest Switch. 

[tp4tissue]

The sad part is the Halo will probably end up as an underwhelming switch.

aka If it's too good to be true...

I wasn't too sure about their description,  not sure what they mean by modeling topre.

I can't seem to find any close up shots of the stem profile..  did they round something off to make it smoother ?

The description says the switch is smoother..

[tp4tissue]

We live in the Social Media Age. Everything gets hashed out in that space now. Get used to it.

Maybe some good will come from this. Maybe this will give I:C an opportunity to design an improved Halo switch that is internally dampened. Bottom-out and upstroke noise is a sin against all that is holy and good. The idea of a purely mechanical switch that feels like a Topre switch is brilliant, but it needs to be just as quiet and, dare I say, as "thocky" as possible to qualify as World's Finest Switch. 

I think mimicking the force curve is certainly possible, but thocky will never happen, because it's an airpocket resonant sound,  an mx style spring switch won't ever make such a sound.

[zslane]

Yeah, that's true.

Maybe they can at least reduce the noise to a dull thud at least.

[dante]

Neon Green Alps feel the most like Topre.
MX can't feel like Alps.
Therefore MX can't feel like Topre.

There is only so much you can do with MX.  If you want Topre feel buy a Topre.

[zslane]

There is only so much you can do with MX.  If you want Topre feel buy a Topre.

Yeah, that's what I usually do.

However, I need MX stem compatibility because all my keycap sets have MX mounts. That restricts me to the RealForce RGB and the Plum line of keyboards. They're working great, but I like options.

[tp4tissue]

There is only so much you can do with MX.  If you want Topre feel buy a Topre.

Yeah, that's what I usually do.

However, I need MX stem compatibility because all my keycap sets have MX mounts. That restricts me to the RealForce RGB and the Plum line of keyboards. They're working great, but I like options.

Guys, let's try to keep this one about the the issue in question..


Ya'll can make another thread discussing  Topre vs Halo, hahahahaha

[HotRoderX]

Tp4 your easily one of my favorite posters,you have no problem being fun and goofy. When things need to be said you get right down to brass tacks I like that.

I agree fully thought doubt we will ever see full contractual information from either party. My thoughts which are my own is that if either side try's to release them the other will block.

As far as the situation has been handled Input club has kinda left a sour taste in my mouth. Perhaps it was just rage posting but when your as big a part of the community as they are you have to hold your punches. The reason I say that is because they have a lot of sway and power... people will take what they say as gospel and run with it!

I think maturity wise Input Club has a lot of growth. They are a company now selling a product so they have to think about how there customers and investors feel about the way they handle situations. This is no longer a forum where you can post your emotions but instead a place where cold hard facts rule.. and judges will have the final say in what happens. I hope that Input club can grow from this situation regardless of who was in the right or wrong contractually. They have a lot of really amazing and cool concepts and I want them to strive. I hope they learn from this situation

I am still curious to see both sides of the argument thought. At this point! I can't really say how I feel other then to say I give either company another chance regardless. Things happen we can either hold it against them or move on! Truthfully if we refuse to move on we lose a lot from both sides! On one token we lose amazing creators if Input club is in the wrong.. and we decided there no longer a valued part of the community. On the other side if we decided its Massdrops fault.. then you know we lose a valuable resource for bring in new people to the community. We also lose a secure resource for buying and selling products that takes a lot of liability off creators. Love them hate them they both are corner stones of the community and with out both we would lose a lot of the robust choice we have at this point.

I also want to add a few more little tid bits of info! I find it strange to think Input club is the only creator/content producer who has had issues with Mass drop! I would assume other would have as well if there really was a major issue with Massdrop trying to take advantage of creators.

Also think if Massdrop is found at fault then yes they should be held accountable for there actions if they continue on!

Hopefully this doesn't come off slanted I tried to two views one as a average consumer and how they might feel not knowing Input clubs reputation in the community. Instead just basing it off something you want to buy or a possible company that looks catchy to invest in!..

Also just tried to boil it down to what would happen if either side pulled out of the community

Edited for spelling! Sorry I know my Grammar sucks =/

[tp4tissue]

Official Statement from Input Club,  with "Excerpt" from Massdrop/Input_Club contract..

Link:

https://input.club/official-halo-switch-statement/


Contract Excerpt:


Sec. 3(c)(ii)(2)(c)

Limited License Back. Massdrop does hereby grant Designer a limited, non-exclusive and revocable license to use Massdrop’s Joint Inventions solely to the extent necessary for Designer to (i) perform Designer’s obligations under this Agreement; and (ii) to request manufacture of, and purchase, Products solely from the manufacturer designated in Exhibit C, and to sell products incorporating such Products to end users. Input Club (itself or with or through other entities) agrees to not distribute or sell such Products to resellers or distributors.

END

[xondat]

Key word "revocable"? What does this all mean

[sth]

seems like part ii of that clause makes it pretty clear - IC is allowed to request those switches be made and then incorporated into their keyboard for direct sale to customers, right?

[tp4tissue]

Key word "revocable"? What does this all mean

Yes..  that's odd indeed..

But if the full contract has Other conditions   that  reign in the requirements FOR  revoking the right,   That would make more sense..

We do not have the full contract to be sure of this..

[tp4tissue]

seems like part ii of that clause makes it pretty clear - IC is allowed to request those switches be made and then incorporated into their keyboard for direct sale to customers, right?

That is absolutely correct,    we are only hinging on _revocable_  at this moment..

It's very likely there should be  other terms to determine conditions for Revoking the right..


However,  if such other terms do not exist,   then Massdrop has the right to revoke the license-back..

[chuckdee]

The thing is, this is only a contract excerpt.  It's very hard to see the full picture from an excerpt.  Just take it to court like businesses do every day, and abide by the court's decisions instead of pouring such vitriol into the community so they can tar and feather based upon incomplete information.

[tp4tissue]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The community update is important because Input_Club is a community organization HERE at geekhack..  Where-ever the future takes them,  they have roots HERE..

So, that's why we are attempting to keep this thread CIVIL, and as close to the released information as possible.


TO AVOID,  pitchforking,  like the -incident-,  of which our very own chuckdee had been an agent of destruction upon. hahaha


That said,   let's stick to the facts..



We have a better glance of the situation than we did this morning..  But there are many open uncertainties..

Awaiting Further information, and Massdrop's Response..

Input_Club has already stated that they are committed to fully releasing the contract for public view upon Massdrop's agreement.

[HotRoderX]

This is just my 2 cents but at this point I:C needs to stop acting like a kid and be adult! Take it to court stop trying bully tactics which is what this feels like. This entire he said she said... mommy they took my toy and I want it back is getting silly. The community is not the place for this level of drama. There also the fact that I:C might have just dragged another major company into this directly or indirectly. That is Kick Starter. What little we can see of the contract.. which I be shocked if we ever see the entire thing.. It could be argued (I AM NOT A LAWYER) that Kickstarter was being used as a distribution platform for the sales of there product I would assume it be up to a judge to decided if thats true or not. At this point I:C doesn't appear to be taking direct legal action but instead trying to resolve things outside of court which would lead me to think they been adviced by lawyers they can't win. I might be wrong and I am taking some guess but... at the end of the day this needs to be a business dispute. I don't see other companies taking and airing there laundry on social media!

I dont know what massdrop is thinking or I:C.. but at this point I:C looks like a bully if they thought they really had the legal rights and president they do... why aren't they in court fighting this instead of trying to get the entire community up in arms? Its one thing to be transparent its another to try and start a riot cause your not getting your way.

[jbondeson]

The thing is, this is only a contract excerpt.  It's very hard to see the full picture from an excerpt.  Just take it to court like businesses do every day, and abide by the court's decisions instead of pouring such vitriol into the community so they can tar and feather based upon incomplete information.

DISCLAIMER: I am a member of I:C, but do not speak for everyone

So I've been party to this whole boondoggle for the beginning, but been a part of this community for much longer. I've seen a few of the comments you've posted here and on Massdrop's forums, and I kinda want to respond.

I:C is mostly comprised of a bunch of guys who do this stuff in our spare time. Massdrop if a VC backed corporation. So I get a little frustrated when I hear the "just take it to court!" as if it's just a matter of flipping a switch and it would be over.  In my day jobs of yonder I've been a part of lawsuits and it's not an easy process. Litigation is a long and expensive process, doubly so when there is such a massive disparity in company size.

So when I read your comments it just comes off as victim blaming.

Would you tell someone who felt they were wronged in Classifieds to just suck it up, not make a ruckus and take it to small claims court?

Would you tell someone who felt they were wronged by a merchant to do the same?

What makes I:C different than those above?

[tp4tissue]

This is just my 2 cents but at this point I:C needs to stop acting like a kid and be adult! Take it to court stop trying bully tactics which is what this feels like. This entire he said she said... mommy they took my toy and I want it back is getting silly. The community is not the place for this level of drama. There also the fact that I:C might have just dragged another major company into this directly or indirectly. That is Kick Starter. What little we can see of the contract.. which I be shocked if we ever see the entire thing.. It could be argued (I AM NOT A LAWYER) that Kickstarter was being used as a distribution platform for the sales of there product I would assume it be up to a judge to decided if thats true or not. At this point I:C doesn't appear to be taking direct legal action but instead trying to resolve things outside of court which would lead me to think they been adviced by lawyers they can't win. I might be wrong and I am taking some guess but... at the end of the day this needs to be a business dispute. I don't see other companies taking and airing there laundry on social media!

I dont know what massdrop is thinking or I:C.. but at this point I:C looks like a bully if they thought they really had the legal rights and president they do... why aren't they in court fighting this instead of trying to get the entire community up in arms? Its one thing to be transparent its another to try and start a riot cause your not getting your way.

Many of these things remain uncertain for now..  Your speculations are wild but not impossible.. hahahahahaha


The distributor is however someone who sells to "stores that sell to consumers".. 


Kickstarter is a crowd funding system,   THEY MAY have services which work like a distributor,  but if Input_Club did not use Kickstarter services in that way,  they are not in violation of the -distributors- limitation from the excerpt..

[zslane]

Giving a Joint Partner the power to arbitrarily revoke a right granted in the contract is equivalent to not asking for, and not being granted the right at all. Surely there are conditions under which revocation can be exercised; we just don't know what those conditions are. If there are no conditions or restrictions, then the whole license-back part of the contract is effectively meaningless, and I don't see the point to agreeing to it in the first place.

It is interesting how folks are taking issue with the public nature of the dispute. So many times I've seen members of this community get very bent out of shape over the lack of transparency exhibited by companies (MassDrop and Signature Plastics to name but two), and now that I:C is being oh so very transparent, they are being crucified for it. You just can't win for losing around here.

[tp4tissue]

Giving a Joint Partner the power to arbitrarily revoke a right granted in the contract is equivalent to not asking for, and not being granted the right at all. Surely there are conditions under which revocation can be exercised; we just don't know what those conditions are. If there are no conditions or restrictions, then the whole license-back part of the contract is effectively meaningless, and I don't see the point to agreeing to it in the first place.

It is interesting how folks are taking issue with the public nature of the dispute. So many times I've seen members of this community get very bent out of shape over the lack of transparency exhibited by companies (MassDrop and Signature Plastics to name but two), and now that I:C is being oh so very transparent, they are being crucified for it. You just can't win for losing around here.

There's certainly much misinformation out there..


That's why Both Parties are innocent until proven otherwise..


It's not likely that revocation is straight up unconditional,   but we do not have that information at this time.

[HotRoderX]

The thing is, this is only a contract excerpt.  It's very hard to see the full picture from an excerpt.  Just take it to court like businesses do every day, and abide by the court's decisions instead of pouring such vitriol into the community so they can tar and feather based upon incomplete information.

DISCLAIMER: I am a member of I:C, but do not speak for everyone

So I've been party to this whole boondoggle for the beginning, but been a part of this community for much longer. I've seen a few of the comments you've posted here and on Massdrop's forums, and I kinda want to respond.

I:C is mostly comprised of a bunch of guys who do this stuff in our spare time. Massdrop if a VC backed corporation. So I get a little frustrated when I hear the "just take it to court!" as if it's just a matter of flipping a switch and it would be over.  In my day jobs of yonder I've been a part of lawsuits and it's not an easy process. Litigation is a long and expensive process, doubly so when there is such a massive disparity in company size.

So when I read your comments it just comes off as victim blaming.

Would you tell someone who felt they were wronged in Classifieds to just suck it up, not make a ruckus and take it to small claims court?

Would you tell someone who felt they were wronged by a merchant to do the same?

What makes I:C different than those above?

because I:C wants to be a company when you want to branch out and become a company you have to take on all the risk. This is why I kinda don't get the people saying... o the community can handle group buys!. Who wants to take on the risk of buying and basically taking on the liability's of a company. 

Thats what this boils down to in my eyes. I am new to the community so I not as swayed by prior actions of I:C.. sure I read about them and its cool and its great what you all do.. but at the end of the day this is how I view things.

I:C Designed something!
I:C wanted that Design to go from Concept to Reality
I:C found a partner willing to fund there venture!

Once they hit that 3rd phase it went from guys having fun and doing what they love to a business. Perhaps that not how I:C viewed it but its how I am. I am sure there are tons of others viewing it The same way.

The business world is a harsh callous place.. and you should always suspect the worse to happen. Plan for the worse hope for the best. Make sure your lawyers are as good as the other guys or better. Then there is the fact I:C decided to host a Kick-starter campaign. I guess you could have argued that kick-starter campaign was just a group buy being hosted by kick-starter but not really sure that the platform is for. I am under the understanding that Kick-starter is a place of business to get there start. The actions of I:C as of late all point to them wanting to be more then a few guys hanging out having fun! in this club! and more to the actions of a start up business.. There been some major successful business that have started in such way's. Including Apple, Walt Disney, HP/Packard Bell and Mattel to name a few... so yep.. I feel bad for Input club I really do but they need to let this go.

I:C to a someone buying something out of the classifieds is stupid. Thats like comparing buying a house vs a pack of gum.. there bought monitory transactions but one is FAR MORE COMPLICATED then the other.

[jbondeson]

Snip...

Ok, where to start.

First of all, our response to the situation was to literally make something new when we realized that we weren't going to be able to resolve this with Massdrop. Our goal has been, and will always continue to be, to deliver what we promised to people.

Second, our company has always been about transparency. We open source everything. And when it comes to not being able to give people exactly what we promised, we're going to tell them exactly what's going on within the limits of what we can legally do. I know that makes some people uncomfortable but that's just who we are.

Third, while we may be small and this not all of our full-time jobs we take this very seriously. So the insinuation that we're yolo'ing this because we're being transparent kind of throws me for a loop, like somehow the hallmark of a great and committed company is to keep everyone in the community in the dark.

[sth]

This is just my 2 cents but at this point I:C needs to stop acting like a kid and be adult! Take it to court stop trying bully tactics which is what this feels like. This entire he said she said... mommy they took my toy and I want it back is getting silly. The community is not the place for this level of drama. There also the fact that I:C might have just dragged another major company into this directly or indirectly. That is Kick Starter. What little we can see of the contract.. which I be shocked if we ever see the entire thing.. It could be argued (I AM NOT A LAWYER) that Kickstarter was being used as a distribution platform for the sales of there product I would assume it be up to a judge to decided if thats true or not. At this point I:C doesn't appear to be taking direct legal action but instead trying to resolve things outside of court which would lead me to think they been adviced by lawyers they can't win. I might be wrong and I am taking some guess but... at the end of the day this needs to be a business dispute. I don't see other companies taking and airing there laundry on social media!

I dont know what massdrop is thinking or I:C.. but at this point I:C looks like a bully if they thought they really had the legal rights and president they do... why aren't they in court fighting this instead of trying to get the entire community up in arms? Its one thing to be transparent its another to try and start a riot cause your not getting your way.

The thing is, this is only a contract excerpt.  It's very hard to see the full picture from an excerpt.  Just take it to court like businesses do every day, and abide by the court's decisions instead of pouring such vitriol into the community so they can tar and feather based upon incomplete information.

DISCLAIMER: I am a member of I:C, but do not speak for everyone

So I've been party to this whole boondoggle for the beginning, but been a part of this community for much longer. I've seen a few of the comments you've posted here and on Massdrop's forums, and I kinda want to respond.

I:C is mostly comprised of a bunch of guys who do this stuff in our spare time. Massdrop if a VC backed corporation. So I get a little frustrated when I hear the "just take it to court!" as if it's just a matter of flipping a switch and it would be over.  In my day jobs of yonder I've been a part of lawsuits and it's not an easy process. Litigation is a long and expensive process, doubly so when there is such a massive disparity in company size.

So when I read your comments it just comes off as victim blaming.

Would you tell someone who felt they were wronged in Classifieds to just suck it up, not make a ruckus and take it to small claims court?

Would you tell someone who felt they were wronged by a merchant to do the same?

What makes I:C different than those above?

because I:C wants to be a company when you want to branch out and become a company you have to take on all the risk. This is why I kinda don't get the people saying... o the community can handle group buys!. Who wants to take on the risk of buying and basically taking on the liability's of a company. 

Thats what this boils down to in my eyes. I am new to the community so I not as swayed by prior actions of I:C.. sure I read about them and its cool and its great what you all do.. but at the end of the day this is how I view things.

I:C Designed something!
I:C wanted that Design to go from Concept to Reality
I:C found a partner willing to fund there venture!

Once they hit that 3rd phase it went from guys having fun and doing what they love to a business. Perhaps that not how I:C viewed it but its how I am. I am sure there are tons of others viewing it The same way.

The business world is a harsh callous place.. and you should always suspect the worse to happen. Plan for the worse hope for the best. Make sure your lawyers are as good as the other guys or better. Then there is the fact I:C decided to host a Kick-starter campaign. I guess you could have argued that kick-starter campaign was just a group buy being hosted by kick-starter but not really sure that the platform is for. I am under the understanding that Kick-starter is a place of business to get there start. The actions of I:C as of late all point to them wanting to be more then a few guys hanging out having fun! in this club! and more to the actions of a start up business.. There been some major successful business that have started in such way's. Including Apple, Walt Disney, HP/Packard Bell and Mattel to name a few... so yep.. I feel bad for Input club I really do but they need to let this go.

I:C to a someone buying something out of the classifieds is stupid. Thats like comparing buying a house vs a pack of gum.. there bought monitory transactions but one is FAR MORE COMPLICATED then the other.

you sound like a really dull person, Hot Roder X, and you're right. you are new to the community. if you plan on sticking around, you might want to act like you want to be part of it.

[tp4tissue]

you sound like a really dull person, Hot Roder X, and you're right. you are new to the community. if you plan on sticking around, you might want to act like you want to be part of it.

Let's not get into name callin' guys,   we're here to keep the information straight..  Ya'll can duke it out in Offtopix if ya'll up for it ..

[chuckdee]

The thing is, this is only a contract excerpt.  It's very hard to see the full picture from an excerpt.  Just take it to court like businesses do every day, and abide by the court's decisions instead of pouring such vitriol into the community so they can tar and feather based upon incomplete information.

DISCLAIMER: I am a member of I:C, but do not speak for everyone

So I've been party to this whole boondoggle for the beginning, but been a part of this community for much longer. I've seen a few of the comments you've posted here and on Massdrop's forums, and I kinda want to respond.

I:C is mostly comprised of a bunch of guys who do this stuff in our spare time. Massdrop if a VC backed corporation. So I get a little frustrated when I hear the "just take it to court!" as if it's just a matter of flipping a switch and it would be over.  In my day jobs of yonder I've been a part of lawsuits and it's not an easy process. Litigation is a long and expensive process, doubly so when there is such a massive disparity in company size.

So when I read your comments it just comes off as victim blaming.

Would you tell someone who felt they were wronged in Classifieds to just suck it up, not make a ruckus and take it to small claims court?

Would you tell someone who felt they were wronged by a merchant to do the same?

What makes I:C different than those above?

The fact that I:C had a lawyer going into this.  The fact that I:C signed a contract.  The two things are not the same.  And I'd think that you'd know that, rather than making a false equivalency like that.  Handling it in this manner when you have the intent to go to court can backfire on you.  Which is the reason that businesses don't do business in that manner.  This "we're just engineers taking on the man" smacks of brinkmanship rather than reality.  Handle your business.  Don't play the game that you're playing now.

Giving a Joint Partner the power to arbitrarily revoke a right granted in the contract is equivalent to not asking for, and not being granted the right at all. Surely there are conditions under which revocation can be exercised; we just don't know what those conditions are. If there are no conditions or restrictions, then the whole license-back part of the contract is effectively meaningless, and I don't see the point to agreeing to it in the first place.

It is interesting how folks are taking issue with the public nature of the dispute. So many times I've seen members of this community get very bent out of shape over the lack of transparency exhibited by companies (MassDrop and Signature Plastics to name but two), and now that I:C is being oh so very transparent, they are being crucified for it. You just can't win for losing around here.

Because that's not how you handle such disputes in general, for the reasons that we are seeing now.  And once things go to court, these sorts of statements and documents can unexpectedly come back and bite you in the ass.  There's even bullying in I:C's response, although more subtle than the other bullying.  Handle it like a business.  It will be less destructive to the community than stirring up the villagers with their pitchforks.

I'm just looking at it straight up- I'm not on either side.  But this ****?  It's very unprofessional and very damaging to I:C, MD, and the community as a whole.

[Zobeid Zuma]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.  However, the license-back clause does seem to be written in relatively normal English language, and I think I may have some idea what this dispute hinges on.  I:C have a license "...to sell products incorporating such Products to end users."  Which, at first glance, appears to be precisely what they are doing with Whitefox and Nightfox now.  However. . .

"Input Club (itself or with or through other entities) agrees to not distribute or sell such Products to resellers or distributors."

I suspect that MD view Kickstarter as the "reseller or distributor" muscling in on their turf here.  But is Kickstarter actually reselling or distributing anything?  I've been informed that sometimes they can, actually, provide such services to some projects, but I don't think that's typical, and I have no reason to think they're doing that for I:C.  But Massdrop might argue that simply providing an online platform, or storefront, for I:C counts as being a "distributor", even though I:C would say they're the ones actually selling and shipping out their own keyboards.

[tp4tissue]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.  However, the license-back clause does seem to be written in relatively normal English language, and I think I may have some idea what this dispute hinges on.  I:C have a license "...to sell products incorporating such Products to end users."  Which, at first glance, appears to be precisely what they are doing with Whitefox and Nightfox now.  However. . .

"Input Club (itself or with or through other entities) agrees to not distribute or sell such Products to resellers or distributors."

I suspect that MD view Kickstarter as the "reseller or distributor" muscling in on their turf here.  But is Kickstarter actually reselling or distributing anything?  I've been informed that sometimes they can, actually, provide such services to some projects, but I don't think that's typical, and I have no reason to think they're doing that for I:C.  But Massdrop might argue that simply providing an online platform, or storefront, for I:C counts as being a "distributor", even though I:C would say they're the ones actually selling and shipping out their own keyboards.

No, Kickstarter is NOT a distributor,  UNLESS Input Club used certain Kickstarter services to sell directly to OTHER storefronts (which then sell to end customers)

Using kickstarter as crowd funding source is not selling to a distributor.

[hydrochloride]

I just want my whitefox that I paid for... I joined the community 2 months ago for the keyboards, not the drama...

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