Anyone have a Logitech G700s??

[tp4tissue]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..   

Damn them Rich Kids...

[rurushu]

And I'm just sitting here, waiting for one day where the G9x refresh would be released....

[tp4tissue]

And I'm just sitting here, waiting for one day where the G9x refresh would be released....

that's the g303..

[rurushu]

And I'm just sitting here, waiting for one day where the G9x refresh would be released....

that's the g303..

But the shape od g303 is so odd... ibcant get a proper grip on it because im a claw gripper

[Leslieann]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

[iLLucionist]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

[tp4tissue]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

Logitech knows what they're doing..

There are youtube videos of their laboratory and all the custom equipment setups they've made to test their mice.

The fact that they had to make them , tells you that they're on the frontier of this endeavor..


All of the little issues that come up on the other brands do not happen on Logitech mice, because they've got a long time experience in this area.. Things like latency, tracking anomalies


And that François Morier guy... he just exudes good engineering..

[iLLucionist]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

All of the little issues that come up on the other brands do not happen on Logitech mice, because they've got a long time experience in this area.. Things like latency, tracking anomalies

Well, that's simply not true, sorry. A quick google reviews there are plenty issues with logitech mice. Typical logitech mouse issues are feet coming off (g502), scroll wheel issues, and (especially right) mouse button stop working after some time (not 10 years, but like 1-2 years or so).

I'm not saying logitech is crap, but there are issues that shouldn't be there given the prices they charge for their upper range mice, like g402, g502 and beyond.

For as the "expertise". Yeah sure, they have expertise. But making a video about their lab does not mean they are superior compared to other vendors per se. Of course they have their competitive advantage, but it's just expert power they try to persuade their customers with: "look at our lab, we know what we are doing. now we have connected with the geeks again right? This is real tech right? now go buy or products."

No flame intended, just my opinion on logitech.

[tp4tissue]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

All of the little issues that come up on the other brands do not happen on Logitech mice, because they've got a long time experience in this area.. Things like latency, tracking anomalies

Well, that's simply not true, sorry. A quick google reviews there are plenty issues with logitech mice. Typical logitech mouse issues are feet coming off (g502), scroll wheel issues, and (especially right) mouse button stop working after some time (not 10 years, but like 1-2 years or so).

I'm not saying logitech is crap, but there are issues that shouldn't be there given the prices they charge for their upper range mice, like g402, g502 and beyond.

For as the "expertise". Yeah sure, they have expertise. But making a video about their lab does not mean they are superior compared to other vendors per se. Of course they have their competitive advantage, but it's just expert power they try to persuade their customers with: "look at our lab, we know what we are doing. now we have connected with the geeks again right? This is real tech right? now go buy or products."

No flame intended, just my opinion on logitech.

Buttons dying is a non-issue.

Any batch of components can be bad..

I'm talking about tracking error and engineering..

What comes out of the factory broken is a matter of quality control..

But the DESIGN is sound..


Where everyone else has liftoff issues, latency, jumping cursors..    THIS is where the gold is, and the most important aspect of a product..

If you personally get a bad batch,  no big deal,  they send you another one.  this will happen to everyone.

[iLLucionist]

Um.. that's the RELEASE early bird price guys..    It's gonna be $70 soon enough.. just wait a year..

Don't count on that, Logitech rarely lowers prices, not even for clearance.
The G700s was actually an exception to the rule, and probably in large part to the fact that it was mostly a G700 and was quite old for a flagship product.

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

All of the little issues that come up on the other brands do not happen on Logitech mice, because they've got a long time experience in this area.. Things like latency, tracking anomalies

Well, that's simply not true, sorry. A quick google reviews there are plenty issues with logitech mice. Typical logitech mouse issues are feet coming off (g502), scroll wheel issues, and (especially right) mouse button stop working after some time (not 10 years, but like 1-2 years or so).

I'm not saying logitech is crap, but there are issues that shouldn't be there given the prices they charge for their upper range mice, like g402, g502 and beyond.

For as the "expertise". Yeah sure, they have expertise. But making a video about their lab does not mean they are superior compared to other vendors per se. Of course they have their competitive advantage, but it's just expert power they try to persuade their customers with: "look at our lab, we know what we are doing. now we have connected with the geeks again right? This is real tech right? now go buy or products."

No flame intended, just my opinion on logitech.

Buttons dying is a non-issue.

Any batch of components can be bad..

I'm talking about tracking error and engineering..

What comes out of the factory broken is a matter of quality control..

But the DESIGN is sound..


Where everyone else has liftoff issues, latency, jumping cursors..    THIS is where the gold is, and the most important aspect of a product..

If you personally get a bad batch,  no big deal,  they send you another one.  this will happen to everyone.

So basically what you are saying is: physical product failure doesn't matter as long as the sensor is good?

[tp4tissue]

So basically what you are saying is: physical product failure doesn't matter as long as the sensor is good?

There are many different types of failures..

And overall, you've mentioned only that SOME logitechs have dead buttons.. a problem which ALL mice manufacturers have because they all source the same Switch OMRON D2FC-7N..


Generally, logitech's manufacturing quality is solid, no better or worse than any other mice, they're all made by the same few oems in China..


I'm talking about engineering know-how,  and here is where Logitech as significantly lengthier experience than most other manufacturers..   They also have the research infrastructure in place to move forward.. while the other guys just makes big number box art.. 

Logitech is among the first to STOP playing that DPI war on boxart ..


So, in summary..  All these mice are made from boxes of scraps,  but LOGITECH has the best implementation of said heap..  such that their pile performs significantly better..

[iLLucionist]

So basically what you are saying is: physical product failure doesn't matter as long as the sensor is good?

There are many different types of failures..

And overall, you've mentioned only that SOME logitechs have dead buttons.. a problem which ALL mice manufacturers have because they all source the same Switch OMRON D2FC-7N..

That's true indeed. You cannot held manufacturers accountable for the failing of subparts they buy from other vendors unless they could have foreseen that the parts are subpar. But overall Logitech doesn't really use crappy components from other vendors.

Generally, logitech's manufacturing quality is solid, no better or worse than any other mice, they're all made by the same few oems in China..

Except for the mousewheels and feet, I agree with you.

I'm talking about engineering know-how,  and here is where Logitech as significantly lengthier experience than most other manufacturers..   They also have the research infrastructure in place to move forward.. while the other guys just makes big number box art.. 

Logitech is among the first to STOP playing that DPI war on boxart ..

Agreed.

So, in summary..  All these mice are made from boxes of scraps,  but LOGITECH has the best implementation of said heap..  such that their pile performs significantly better..

Probably true.

Personally, I also dislike their recent mouse designs. But that is personal of course. That says nothing about build quality and component choice.

[tp4tissue]

Here is a Video that is convincing of the fact that Logitech knows what they're doing..

[Bucake]

i suppose most people think that every company has an R&D department like logitech has.
funnily, they actually are the only company that has one that's that sophisticated.

but it's no secret (anymore) that most companies actually do very little themselves. a good example is teksyndicate, who seem to know absolutely nothing about mice. companies like zowie are barely any different.
i suspect Razer has more of an idea as to what they're doing compared to the smaller companies, but still not close to what Logitech has.

unfortunately (for logitech) a lot of customers turn away from their shapes or the way their mice look.
they seem stubborn in wanting to release "fresh" mice -- a lot of people just want to see their old shapes return with a new sensor, but logitech insists on making "spaceships" that turn people off.
but maybe they're right, maybe their old shapes are just too "normal" to sell well, nowadays..

[iLLucionist]

i suppose most people think that every company has an R&D department like logitech has.
funnily, they actually are the only company that has one that's that sophisticated.

but it's no secret (anymore) that most companies actually do very little themselves. a good example is teksyndicate, who seem to know absolutely nothing about mice. companies like zowie are barely any different.
i suspect Razer has more of an idea as to what they're doing compared to the smaller companies, but still not close to what Logitech has.

unfortunately (for logitech) a lot of customers turn away from their shapes or the way their mice look.
they seem stubborn in wanting to release "fresh" mice -- a lot of people just want to see their old shapes return with a new sensor, but logitech insists on making "spaceships" that turn people off.
but maybe they're right, maybe their old shapes are just too "normal" to sell well, nowadays..

Honest question.. what I take from all this info is that you need some serious R&D to keep mouse behavior within confines. You need knowledge, algorithms, firmware to make it so that when you move the mouse from point X1, Y1 up to point X2, Y2, the mouse actually registers one straight line across a variety of DPI's. So don't all these companies need an R&D department to make that happen? Is it even possible just to make a mold, slap in a PCB and a sensor with some clicky buttons and a scroll wheel and just take it to the market?

[tp4tissue]

Honest question.. what I take from all this info is that you need some serious R&D to keep mouse behavior within confines. You need knowledge, algorithms, firmware to make it so that when you move the mouse from point X1, Y1 up to point X2, Y2, the mouse actually registers one straight line across a variety of DPI's. So don't all these companies need an R&D department to make that happen? Is it even possible just to make a mold, slap in a PCB and a sensor with some clicky buttons and a scroll wheel and just take it to the market?

YES, it is possible..

All of the component companies release parts as part of Platforms..  Anyone can start a mouse company,  buy into the platform,  and sell the product..


you know all those $300 ghetto headphone amps from China?  Yea,  same deal, New graduates who don't know anything about audio fidelity,  They buy a set of blueprints or just Copy the reference, lay out the pcb with some "german capacitors"  and sell it to you..

And the n0vice consumers who don't REALLY know anything deep about electronics are like oooooooo.... look at the shiny aluminum housing that cost all of $3 to make..

That's actually what MOST of these mouse companies do..

[iLLucionist]

Honest question.. what I take from all this info is that you need some serious R&D to keep mouse behavior within confines. You need knowledge, algorithms, firmware to make it so that when you move the mouse from point X1, Y1 up to point X2, Y2, the mouse actually registers one straight line across a variety of DPI's. So don't all these companies need an R&D department to make that happen? Is it even possible just to make a mold, slap in a PCB and a sensor with some clicky buttons and a scroll wheel and just take it to the market?

YES, it is possible..

All of the component companies release parts as part of Platforms..  Anyone can start a mouse company,  buy into the platform,  and sell the product..


you know all those $300 ghetto headphone amps from China?  Yea,  same deal, New graduates who don't know anything about audio fidelity,  They buy a set of blueprints or just Copy the reference, lay out the pcb with some "german capacitors"  and sell it to you..

And the n0vice consumers who don't REALLY know anything deep about electronics are like oooooooo.... look at the shiny aluminum housing that cost all of $3 to make..

That's actually what MOST of these mouse companies do..

So it's basically like graphics cards and motherboards: there is a reference design and you can just bluntly start pushing those out from a factory and selling them with your brand on it.

Damn... it feels like a big setup. So what mouse companies are genuinely doing R&D? Zowie? Mionix?

[tp4tissue]

So it's basically like graphics cards and motherboards: there is a reference design and you can just bluntly start pushing those out from a factory and selling them with your brand on it.

Damn... it feels like a big setup. So what mouse companies are genuinely doing R&D? Zowie? Mionix?

Logitech  founded:  1981,  made their first mouse in 1982

Mionix : 2007


You tell me,  who knows more about how to do the clicking-on-stuff.



Let's not even go into Zowie . jesus..

[tp4tissue]

1

[Leslieann]

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

For wired mice, I won't say over-rated, but certainly no better or worse, but you do have good alternatives.


For wireless, it's a whole new ballgame, and it sucks.
There is only about 4 good wireless (desktop) mice manufacturers (possibly a 5th), that's it, and and it's only been recent that half of those even became available. Most wireless mice are meant for casual use only and with the abuse I heap on them, I'm lucky if they last 6 months before they start glitching like crazy (still better than how long wired last). My house is like a wireless mouse graveyard, I find them all over the place. If there was a good wireless alternative to Logitech, I would be open to it, but frankly there isn't.

The Ratt 9 is/was just as expensive as the G900 (it's dropped $20 now), I wasn't impressed with the 7, and reviews on it are sketchy as heck. MS makes office mice. I haven't used a Gigabyte or the Razer yet, but given my experience with others, I hesitate to try Gigabyte, and Razer is, well, Razer (and as costly as the G900).

The G900 looks better and better the more I write.

[iLLucionist]

1

I'm suprised Razer is acceptable. But yeah... Logitech doesn't seem so bad after all. I like Mionix better, but that's personal. I'll probably try a G502 at some point out of curiosity. I wanted to try steelseries but I read about enormous QC issues. Same with zowie.

[iLLucionist]

Honestly, I think Logitech is overrated. Ok, they have this deal for the 3366, fine. But for the rest I really don't see how Logitech is so special compared to other brands.

For wired mice, I won't say over-rated, but certainly no better or worse, but you do have good alternatives.


For wireless, it's a whole new ballgame, and it sucks.
There is only about 4 good wireless (desktop) mice manufacturers (possibly a 5th), that's it, and and it's only been recent that half of those even became available. Most wireless mice are meant for casual use only and with the abuse I heap on them, I'm lucky if they last 6 months before they start glitching like crazy (still better than how long wired last). My house is like a wireless mouse graveyard, I find them all over the place. If there was a good wireless alternative to Logitech, I would be open to it, but frankly there isn't.

The Ratt 9 is/was just as expensive as the G900 (it's dropped $20 now), I wasn't impressed with the 7, and reviews on it are sketchy as heck. MS makes office mice. I haven't used a Gigabyte or the Razer yet, but given my experience with others, I hesitate to try Gigabyte, and Razer is, well, Razer (and as costly as the G900).

The G900 looks better and better the more I write.

Besides the still ridiculous price point, I can see that the G900 might be appealing to some. Of course, the Apple Magic Mouse (or whatever) is a joke. But at least it lasts a long time and doesn't fail. Of course it has a laser, acceleration, crappy ergonomics. But it does give a good wireless signal, always works, and has good battery life. But yeah... it seems like wireless mice is compromises all over the place.

[woll3]

Damn... it feels like a big setup. So what mouse companies are genuinely doing R&D? Zowie? Mionix?

It isnt exactly like it was mentioned, IC and SROM(the Sensor Firmware, which can be tweaked depending on the capabilities of the brand) are provided by Pixart, actual Device Firmware has to be written by someone else(either by the brand or the factory), same goes for PCB design, ID, etc.

Which in the case of Zowie is done by Kingsis, and everything they do is based on the Deathadder, including 10 year old MCU´s.
Mionix is basically LaView, just slightly modified designs(by LaView ofc.).
Logitech and A4Tech are doing stuff completely in House, including Production.
Razer, Roccat and SS do design and Firmware inhouse and Production is outsourced, mostly to Dexin and LaView.
CM Storm buys Designs from Dexin and lets them do modifications to the ID and EE, except for their ultra low end stuff.
Finalmouse is buying OEM Mice from Motospeed.
Cougar, EVGA, Corsair and ASUS have contracted the designstudio Cre8 for most of their mice, Production and other stuff is again mostly done by Dexin and LaView.
Ducky is using some taiwanese factory for everything, apparently the same as Epic Gear, which also explains why the tooling is crap.
Func/Fnatic, i dont even care, and i dont even want to know given the overall quality of their products.
Qpad is using LaView for everything.

But tl;dr is that only Logitech, Razer, Roccat and SS are actually doing something, with varying success ofc.

[iLLucionist]

Damn... it feels like a big setup. So what mouse companies are genuinely doing R&D? Zowie? Mionix?

It isnt exactly like it was mentioned, IC and SROM(the Sensor Firmware, which can be tweaked depending on the capabilities of the brand) are provided by Pixart, actual Device Firmware has to be written by someone else(either by the brand or the factory), same goes for PCB design, ID, etc.

Which in the case of Zowie is done by Kingsis, and everything they do is based on the Deathadder, including 10 year old MCU´s.
Mionix is basically LaView, just slightly modified designs(by LaView ofc.).
Logitech and A4Tech are doing stuff completely in House, including Production.
Razer, Roccat and SS do design and Firmware inhouse and Production is outsourced, mostly to Dexin and LaView.
CM Storm buys Designs from Dexin and lets them do modifications to the ID and EE, except for their ultra low end stuff.
Finalmouse is buying OEM Mice from Motospeed.
Cougar, EVGA, Corsair and ASUS have contracted the designstudio Cre8 for most of their mice, Production and other stuff is again mostly done by Dexin and LaView.
Ducky is using some taiwanese factory for everything, apparently the same as Epic Gear, which also explains why the tooling is crap.
Func/Fnatic, i dont even care, and i dont even want to know given the overall quality of their products.
Qpad is using LaView for everything.

But tl;dr is that only Logitech, Razer, Roccat and SS are actually doing something, with varying success ofc.

Thanks! This is really insightful.

[Bucake]

It isnt exactly like it was mentioned, IC and SROM(the Sensor Firmware, which can be tweaked depending on the capabilities of the brand) are provided by Pixart, actual Device Firmware has to be written by someone else(either by the brand or the factory), same goes for PCB design, ID, etc.

snip

But tl;dr is that only Logitech, Razer, Roccat and SS are actually doing something, with varying success ofc.

yeah i guess i didn't do such a good job simplifying it. i also didn't know so many specifics about which parts of the development the companies do themselves.
thanks for clarifying!

i didn't realize A4Tech did so much in-house, i guess the way their products look and how their marketing is done brought me to the conclusion it's outsourced junk. (that key response video sure was funny.)