Most ergo layout using a profiled keycap set?

[suicidal_orange]

Most keycaps are profiled which means trying dvorak, colemak etc means using keys on the wrong row which isn't going to work, or having mislabelled keys which isn't good for learning.

Surely someone has come up with a better layout that doesn't require swapping letters between rows?  Feel free to lock and link me somewhere if I missed the discussion, my searching has been fruitless

[jacobolus]

Get PBT caps, and dye them all solid black. BAM!

Anyhow, I think it’s hopeless to have an “ergonomic” layout where ETOIRUP are on the top row, and NMC are on the bottom row.

My guess is you’ll learn better without legends than with. (But taping a chart somewhere near your display might help.)

[Nai_Calus]

To be honest, I find labelled keys bad for learning. Then you learn to peer down at your keyboard, which you shouldn't do.

I can't touch-type comfortably enough on a standard flat keyboard to do it properly, I've found, but when I briefly flirted with using Workman(Something about it parses in my head so much better than Colemak) I found it honestly more helpful to just spend a few hours learning where the letters were and going from there. Home row is learned fastest and then the less-used keys are a bit more squirelly for a while. Just keep a printout somewhere you can look over to.

Ultimately my pinkies are just too short for 'proper' touch-typing on a standard keyboard to ever be the slightest bit comfortable(It started hurting within a half hour every time I tried) and I went back to qwerty and my weird non-standard way that involves my hands moving around that doesn't seem to cause me pain.

[Oobly]

To be honest, I find labelled keys bad for learning. Then you learn to peer down at your keyboard, which you shouldn't do.

I can't touch-type comfortably enough on a standard flat keyboard to do it properly, I've found, but when I briefly flirted with using Workman(Something about it parses in my head so much better than Colemak) I found it honestly more helpful to just spend a few hours learning where the letters were and going from there. Home row is learned fastest and then the less-used keys are a bit more squirelly for a while. Just keep a printout somewhere you can look over to.

Ultimately my pinkies are just too short for 'proper' touch-typing on a standard keyboard to ever be the slightest bit comfortable(It started hurting within a half hour every time I tried) and I went back to qwerty and my weird non-standard way that involves my hands moving around that doesn't seem to cause me pain.

You've just made a case for having legends on the keys. That "weird non-standard way that involves my hands moving around" is a more ergonomic way to type than "proper" touch typing, especially the kind that you are supposed to return your fingers to the home row all the time. For the way you (and I) type it's useful to have legends on the keys to orient yourself every now and then.

I partially disagree with jacobolus. If you swap W and T, moving A to F and S to A (making SFDA), moving H to J and L to ; and ; to H and J to L you can appriximate a decent layout, by using the current AWEF and JIO; (which would then become STEA and HIOL) as home row keys by resting your fingers in a more natural curve pattern. So it would look something like (home keys in red):

QTERWYUIOP[]
 SFDA G;HKJL'
 ZXCVBNM,./

That way your "home" row is STEAG;HIOL which is quite decent, with N within easy reach of the right index finger. So ETAIONSHRDLU are all in easy reach.

[Oobly]

Of course analysing the efficiency of the layout may be a little hard since most analysers assume home key positions all on the middle row.

Also, although it's a reasonable efficiency improvement over QWERTY, it's not as good as Dvorak or Colemak and it's certainly not standardised (), so I'm not sure it's worth putting time and effort into learning.

[Nai_Calus]

You've just made a case for having legends on the keys. That "weird non-standard way that involves my hands moving around" is a more ergonomic way to type than "proper" touch typing, especially the kind that you are supposed to return your fingers to the home row all the time. For the way you (and I) type it's useful to have legends on the keys to orient yourself every now and then.

Heh, yeah, I think that's part of why I started typing that way. A lot more comfortable to just move to the key I need next and hit with stronger fingers that don't need to contort. I never use legends except for punctuation I don't use much, though. I don't get lost often and if I do I just do a quick swipe for the homing bumps on F and J to reorient myself.

Hmm, the problem with that alternate home position is that it's not workable with a staggered keyboard - To actually rest my fingers where W and E are now and keep my pinky and index finger on A and F's position, I have to twist the middle of my hand, which feels weird. If I actually go to a comfortable postion I'm basically between keys. The other hand doesn't have the same problem since the staggering works with the direction your hand is coming in to the keyboard at.

[suicidal_orange]

To be honest, I find labelled keys bad for learning. Then you learn to peer down at your keyboard, which you shouldn't do.

Get PBT caps, and dye them all solid black. BAM!

Anyhow, I think it’s hopeless to have an “ergonomic” layout where ETOIRUP are on the top row, and NMC are on the bottom row.

My guess is you’ll learn better without legends than with. (But taping a chart somewhere near your display might help.)

I've just finished a JD40 with blanks but have no printer - it's not going great )

I partially disagree with jacobolus. If you swap W and T, moving A to F and S to A (making SFDA), moving H to J and L to ; and ; to H and J to L you can appriximate a decent layout by using the current AWEF and JIO; (which would then become STEA and HIOL) as home row keys by resting your fingers in a more natural curve pattern. So it would look something like (home keys in red):

QTERWYUIOP[]
 SFDA G;HKJL'
 ZXCVBNM,./

That way your "home" row is STEAG;HIOL which is quite decent, with N within easy reach of the right index finger. So ETAIONSHRDLU are all in easy reach.
...
Also, although it's a reasonable efficiency improvement over QWERTY, it's not as good as Dvorak or Colemak and it's certainly not standardised (), so I'm not sure it's worth putting time and effort into learning.

Interesting idea, I have a programmable fullsize so will have a play - probably over the weekend.  As you say though, perhaps my time would be better spent learning an "official" layout

[tp4tissue]

what?

[batfink]

QTERWYUIOP[]
 SFDA G;HKJL'
 ZXCVBNM,./

Interesting but weird! I would also swap the N and M. Also might as well keep A in the usual position. I think you could get away with keeping S too as having T on the index finger is not so bad I think.

QRETWYUIOP[]
ASFDG;HKJL'
ZXCVBMN,./

But, I would still rather use a "proper" layout even if meant having blank/wrong keys!

[Oobly]

QTERWYUIOP[]
 SFDA G;HKJL'
 ZXCVBNM,./

Interesting but weird! I would also swap the N and M. Also might as well keep A in the usual position. I think you could get away with keeping S too as having T on the index finger is not so bad I think.

QRETWYUIOP[]
ASFDG;HKJL'
ZXCVBMN,./

But, I would still rather use a "proper" layout even if meant having blank/wrong keys!

You're right about the N, it's a bit more accessible when swapped with M.

I was going by English prose letter frequency to determine order of characters: ETAIONSHRDLUCMFPGW or something similar, although the letters after S can shuffle around depending on what corpus you use to test. Here's an interesting chart made by the folks at Maltron: http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/character-usage-by-percentage

Having A on a pinkie and D on the index finger seem rather poor in terms of how frequently they're used. Then again, when examing digraph frequency, my layout has a couple of bad examples, such as ED and AR, but I consider it a bit of a waste of time to spend too much of it shuffling around letters on the rows unless it's going to actually be used...