I went back to a Black Widow, what!?

[1391406]

Hmm, I've had my Razer BWU, Kraken headset, and deathadder for like a year with heavy use. Not a single issue with any of it.. And the stuff takes a beating... Maybe I'm just lucky??

Might be luck or maybe you just don't use your gear heavily enough? Idk.

When I got my Kraken, I noticed the mic literally sucked ass. I've gone through about 5 deathadders as they all started having problems after around 6-8 months each. I've had 3 blackwidows and they all suffered from various issues as well. I was fed up with my ****ty Razer gear, and thus I started Googling, found GH and joined to find better peripherals.

I ALWAYS ignore mic reviews... 99.99% of the time its something wrong with your rig. I've had numerous headsets and EVERY SINGLE ONE had complaints about the mic by people. I have NEVER, except on one $4 headset, had an issue with a mic being crappy. This Kraken mic sounds perfect. I had a deathadder die too... after spilling something on it.

And the fact that you've killed a dozen different peripherals just boggles my mind... They may have a bad egg or two, but something else is/was going on there.

Nope, you're wrong. I've had over 10 other microphones - no issues... only with the Kraken. I said " I've gone through about 5 deathadders as they all started having problems after around 6-8 months each. I've had 3 blackwidows and they all suffered from various issues as well." - I didn't say I "killed" any of them. Do you not know how to read?

"Various issues" 100% not caused by anything else besides bad quality? Doubt it.

You can check other forums for complaints about Razer products as well, it's certainly not limited to GHers.

I'm sure it's not, but if buyer ratings are any indication, it would seem the majority of those who purchased a Blackwidow from a site like Amazon, for example, are fairly satisfied.

Most reviews are done within a few weeks of owning a product, at least on Amazon.  If you notice, most of the 3 star and below reviews have to do with problems with the keys being non-responsive within a few months of ownership.

Amazon reviews can be edited. Anyone who's ultimately unhappy with a product can update their rating and/or review at any time. Frankly, I have little reason to believe only those with negative experiences wait months vs. those with positive experiences. Either way, anyone who's ultimately unhappy can change their review, even years down the road.

Can they, yes. Do they? Probably not.

There's a reason they don't, and that was my point.

At any rate, the response is not overwhelmingly positive. It's what I would expect. 4 stars.

Since when is four stars mediocre? While it may not be overwhelmingly excellent, it's at least overwhelmingly positive, that is if the highest possible rating is 5.

Enough people describing the same issues as described with other Razer products and on this board to say it is another hit or miss product, though not as bad as a lot of their other peripherals, namely their mice.

Visit forums for practically any product and you'll find that the most vocal members are often those experiencing problems, and that's understandable given they're disgruntled and looking for solutions or trying to warn others. Happy customers are typically busy actually using a product. No company is perfect, though.

My main criticism of Razer's keyboards has more to do with the glossy finish, shoddy key caps, and key font. That said, it's not just Amazon and Newegg reviews that are overwhelmingly positive, but numerous magazine and tech site reviews. How many reputable tech sites can you find that review Blackwidow's negatively vs. positively? Follow that up with YouTube reviews by buyers. That isn't to say there aren't negative reviews. They're out there, sure, but from what I've seen they're overshadowed by far more positive reviews.

[paicrai]

Allow me to pop a jaunty little bonnet on your Black Widow and ram it up your ****ter with a lubricated MX Black!

[Lastpilot]

The problem is that the idea of modern mechanical keyboards is fairly new to the "general public" so as a result reviews will be skewed because most people aren't aware of better alternatives. They compare their experience to their EVERYDAY experience of rubber domes. So of course the mech company that spent the most money on being visible to the market will be the same company that has the most positive reviews.

[cherpalla]

Hmm, I've had my Razer BWU, Kraken headset, and deathadder for like a year with heavy use. Not a single issue with any of it.. And the stuff takes a beating... Maybe I'm just lucky??

Might be luck or maybe you just don't use your gear heavily enough? Idk.

When I got my Kraken, I noticed the mic literally sucked ass. I've gone through about 5 deathadders as they all started having problems after around 6-8 months each. I've had 3 blackwidows and they all suffered from various issues as well. I was fed up with my ****ty Razer gear, and thus I started Googling, found GH and joined to find better peripherals.

I ALWAYS ignore mic reviews... 99.99% of the time its something wrong with your rig. I've had numerous headsets and EVERY SINGLE ONE had complaints about the mic by people. I have NEVER, except on one $4 headset, had an issue with a mic being crappy. This Kraken mic sounds perfect. I had a deathadder die too... after spilling something on it.

And the fact that you've killed a dozen different peripherals just boggles my mind... They may have a bad egg or two, but something else is/was going on there.

Nope, you're wrong. I've had over 10 other microphones - no issues... only with the Kraken. I said " I've gone through about 5 deathadders as they all started having problems after around 6-8 months each. I've had 3 blackwidows and they all suffered from various issues as well." - I didn't say I "killed" any of them. Do you not know how to read?

"Various issues" 100% not caused by anything else besides bad quality? Doubt it.

You can check other forums for complaints about Razer products as well, it's certainly not limited to GHers.

I'm sure it's not, but if buyer ratings are any indication, it would seem the majority of those who purchased a Blackwidow from a site like Amazon, for example, are fairly satisfied.

Most reviews are done within a few weeks of owning a product, at least on Amazon.  If you notice, most of the 3 star and below reviews have to do with problems with the keys being non-responsive within a few months of ownership.

Amazon reviews can be edited. Anyone who's ultimately unhappy with a product can update their rating and/or review at any time. Frankly, I have little reason to believe only those with negative experiences wait months vs. those with positive experiences. Either way, anyone who's ultimately unhappy can change their review, even years down the road.

Can they, yes. Do they? Probably not.

There's a reason they don't, and that was my point.

At any rate, the response is not overwhelmingly positive. It's what I would expect. 4 stars.

Since when is four stars mediocre? While it may not be overwhelmingly excellent, it's at least overwhelmingly positive, that is if the highest possible rating is 5.

Enough people describing the same issues as described with other Razer products and on this board to say it is another hit or miss product, though not as bad as a lot of their other peripherals, namely their mice.

Visit forums for practically any product and you'll find that the most vocal members are often those experiencing problems, and that's understandable given they're disgruntled and looking for solutions or trying to warn others. Happy customers are typically busy actually using a product. No company is perfect, though.

My main criticism of Razer's keyboards has more to do with the glossy finish, shoddy key caps, and key font. That said, it's not just Amazon and Newegg reviews that are overwhelmingly positive, but numerous magazine and tech site reviews. How many reputable tech sites can you find that review Blackwidow's negatively vs. positively? Follow that up with YouTube reviews by buyers. That isn't to say there aren't negative reviews. They're out there, sure, but from what I've seen they're overshadowed by far more positive reviews.

Overwhelmingly positive = 4.5+, which on a site like Amazon is where you want to be when buying expensive products. I don't trust the general public with reviews, so if something has hundreds of reviews, I don't trust it if it isn't nearly 5 stars.

Anyway, like I've said numerous times, it would seem that this is a more hit than miss product, at least for general consumers. It doesn't change the fact that my experience is miss, with multiple peripherals and the Naga specifically over and over again until I was completely fed up. Not sure how you're not getting that. I wouldn't spend my money on them based on my experience, and hearing that experience hasn't dramatically improved with their newer products doesn't give me any sort of faith in them to give it another shot.

I would consider them to be the mechanical keyboard that people buy first because it's what's been marketed to them. Maybe that's a bit cynical, but that's their own fault for selling me crap over and over again for years.

[DuckNorris]

Some people can just be unlucky with a product. I have had 2 issues with top Coolermaster Keyboards in a row, whenever people here has loved theirs since they bought it.

Say hypothetically I buy 1 HHKB and it has issues, and I get some pissed off customer service guy I might vow to never ever buy one again and call it crap.

And for the previous 2 pages here WTF happened lol xD. I kind of expected black widow post to start something...

[demik]

My deathadders have been great. I dont buy razer because all their **** is ugly as hell (which is why I use my black edition over the regular 3G) LEDs? What am I, 11?

[mikekey]

Allow me to pop a jaunty little bonnet on your Black Widow and ram it up your ****ter with a lubricated MX Black!

Classy

[1391406]

Overwhelmingly positive = 4.5+, which on a site like Amazon is where you want to be when buying expensive products. I don't trust the general public with reviews, so if something has hundreds of reviews, I don't trust it if it isn't nearly 5 stars.

By definition, overwhelmingly means 'mostly by far'. Since most (over half) of the reviewers gave it a 5 star rating, by definition the reviews have been overwhelmingly positive. That said, it seems completely obvious, at least to me, that anything above 3 stars is not only generally considered acceptable but positive. Even 3 stars might be considered fairly positive, since neutral rests in the middle, at 2.5 stars. As an example, I can't think of any gaming magazine that considers games with 4 stars to be a less than positive rating, and if all reviews for a game were ranked 4 stars, it would likewise be considered overwhelmingly positive. Perhaps you can find a rating system that considers 4 stars to be less than positive on a scale from 1 to 5, though.

Anyway, like I've said numerous times, it would seem that this is a more hit than miss product, at least for general consumers. It doesn't change the fact that my experience is miss, with multiple peripherals and the Naga specifically over and over again until I was completely fed up. Not sure how you're not getting that. I wouldn't spend my money on them based on my experience, and hearing that experience hasn't dramatically improved with their newer products doesn't give me any sort of faith in them to give it another shot.

The original comment I replied to was in reference not to just your experience, but that of other buyers:

"You can check other forums for complaints about Razer products as well, it's certainly not limited to GHers."

I would consider them to be the mechanical keyboard that people buy first because it's what's been marketed to them. Maybe that's a bit cynical, but that's their own fault for selling me crap over and over again for years.

I can only speak for myself, but Razer's marketing isn't what prompted me to try, much less buy, their products. I was interested in trying MX Blues based on several YouTube videos I'd seen. Incidentally, none of those videos were even of a Razer keyboard. The main reason I bought a Blackwidow is because that was the only keyboard with MX Blues at Frys, and after trying it in-store for myself I was hooked.

[Roibhilin]

did razer decide to do a viral marketing run on GH? this coincided with a "razer blackwidow love" thread

[GL1TCH3D]

did razer decide to do a viral marketing run on GH? this coincided with a "razer blackwidow love" thread

It's the same troll that started the flame war here that started that thread

[cherpalla]

Overwhelmingly positive = 4.5+, which on a site like Amazon is where you want to be when buying expensive products. I don't trust the general public with reviews, so if something has hundreds of reviews, I don't trust it if it isn't nearly 5 stars.

By definition, overwhelmingly means 'mostly by far'. Since most (over half) of the reviewers gave it a 5 star rating, by definition the reviews have been overwhelmingly positive. That said, it seems completely obvious, at least to me, that anything above 3 stars is not only generally considered acceptable but positive. Even 3 stars might be considered fairly positive, since neutral rests in the middle, at 2.5 stars. As an example, I can't think of any gaming magazine that considers games with 4 stars to be a less than positive rating, and if all reviews for a game were ranked 4 stars, it would likewise be considered overwhelmingly positive. Perhaps you can find a rating system that considers 4 stars to be less than positive on a scale from 1 to 5, though.

Anyway, like I've said numerous times, it would seem that this is a more hit than miss product, at least for general consumers. It doesn't change the fact that my experience is miss, with multiple peripherals and the Naga specifically over and over again until I was completely fed up. Not sure how you're not getting that. I wouldn't spend my money on them based on my experience, and hearing that experience hasn't dramatically improved with their newer products doesn't give me any sort of faith in them to give it another shot.

The original comment I replied to was in reference not to just your experience, but that of other buyers:

"You can check other forums for complaints about Razer products as well, it's certainly not limited to GHers."

I would consider them to be the mechanical keyboard that people buy first because it's what's been marketed to them. Maybe that's a bit cynical, but that's their own fault for selling me crap over and over again for years.

I can only speak for myself, but Razer's marketing isn't what prompted me to try, much less buy, their products. I was interested in trying MX Blues based on several YouTube videos I'd seen. Incidentally, none of those videos were even of a Razer keyboard. The main reason I bought a Blackwidow is because that was the only keyboard with MX Blues at Frys, and after trying it in-store for myself I was hooked.

I honestly don't feel like responding to all of this, but I will say that you can't rate a half a star or 0 stars, the median is 3, not 2.5. Therefore, 4 isn't overwhelmingly positive, it's just better than average. (Which again, I said that this particular keyboard seems to fair better than the products I've had negative experiences with).

My comment about it not being limited to GHers was to point out that this isn't an elitist opinion, those of us that have an issue with Razer on GH are joined by people who know little to nothing about Mechanical Keyboards at all.

[DuckNorris]

did razer decide to do a viral marketing run on GH? this coincided with a "razer blackwidow love" thread

No, wtf?

I have owned like 4 different coolermaster keyboards and I think the only thing razer I own is this keyboard and a old mousepad of theirs. Past 4 keyboards coolermaster, before that corsair , a ducky, 2 original IBM model Ms, and such. I am not a razer fanboy as I have crap talked them for years before this but was impressed by this new stuff. Before this keyboard I would be back to recommending other keyboards. Just found a switch I liked.

I don't know the other dude with the love thread and I think I made this before him but not sure. My first posts here were regarding model Ms too, I have gone all over and was surprised I would ever like anything keyboard related by this company.

[1391406]

I honestly don't feel like responding to all of this, but I will say that you can't rate a half a star or 0 stars, the median is 3, not 2.5.

A bit irrelevant considering Amazon can and does tally a very precise median based on the collective vote, hence it's possible for the overall product rating to be 2.5 or any number in-between. Thus, the collective median rating between 1 and 5 would be 2.5.

My comment about it not being limited to GHers was to point out that this isn't an elitist opinion, those of us that have an issue with Razer on GH are joined by people who know little to nothing about Mechanical Keyboards at all.

I'm not sure that anyone you were replying to was leveling the accusation that it was some sort of elitist opinion. My comment was simply to point out that if buyer ratings are any indication, most Blackwidow reviewers on Amazon are apparently satisfied. What I wasn't doing was implying that your experience is irrelevant.

[irecresum]

did razer decide to do a viral marketing run on GH? this coincided with a "razer blackwidow love" thread

No, wtf?

I have owned like 4 different coolermaster keyboards and I think the only thing razer I own is this keyboard and a old mousepad of theirs. Past 4 keyboards coolermaster, before that corsair , a ducky, 2 original IBM model Ms, and such. I am not a razer fanboy as I have crap talked them for years before this but was impressed by this new stuff. Before this keyboard I would be back to recommending other keyboards. Just found a switch I liked.

I don't know the other dude with the love thread and I think I made this before him but not sure. My first posts here were regarding model Ms too, I have gone all over and was surprised I would ever like anything keyboard related by this company.

I'm really sorry I caused others to make such assumptions about you and for turning your thread in a direction you would never have intended it to turn. Only thing you and I have in common is we like razer orange switches. I too am surprised and was hesitant to try it because of all the criticisms against Kailhs being naturally inferior as they are chinese made not german.

Stick around and you'll see that elitekeyboards is the major benefactor of the hhkb pro 2 lovefest, the 'better-than-a-filco' KUL-es87, the  topre realforces, not to mention it is the official clack-factory outlet. They make out they are elite forms of rubber domes. And they have a hierarchy for those who have them depending on how much they spent on them. The in-group i guess including certain viral posters seem to love them some cup rubber like it makes their titties hard when they touch them. Go check out the KUL thread and see the review there and how it has suddenly been raised above the tried and true filco by some of these guys. The hype is well organized. They don't apply the same measure to Razer though. It's all "it might be good, but how do I know it won't break down?". Synapse I do agree is not so good and shouldn't be installed unless you want to. If keys start misbehaving the simple fix is to uninstall it. But, somehow they just know the KUL will outperform, outlast and offer a better keyboarding experience for noobs looking to get the next cool best keyboard cos it just feels so amazing - BETTER THAN A FILCO!

Well, I feel the same way about the razor orange switches. They feel so good, and like you, I've tried everything so why not maybe proclaim them as better than cherry mx? They are not the old Kailh - they are new and improved by Razer after all - just not sold at elitekeyboards.

[DuckNorris]

did razer decide to do a viral marketing run on GH? this coincided with a "razer blackwidow love" thread

No, wtf?

I have owned like 4 different coolermaster keyboards and I think the only thing razer I own is this keyboard and a old mousepad of theirs. Past 4 keyboards coolermaster, before that corsair , a ducky, 2 original IBM model Ms, and such. I am not a razer fanboy as I have crap talked them for years before this but was impressed by this new stuff. Before this keyboard I would be back to recommending other keyboards. Just found a switch I liked.

I don't know the other dude with the love thread and I think I made this before him but not sure. My first posts here were regarding model Ms too, I have gone all over and was surprised I would ever like anything keyboard related by this company.

I'm really sorry I caused others to make such assumptions about you and for turning your thread in a direction you would never have intended it to turn. Only thing you and I have in common is we like razer orange switches. I too am surprised and was hesitant to try it because of all the criticisms against Kailhs being naturally inferior as they are chinese made not german.

Stick around and you'll see that elitekeyboards is the major benefactor of the hhkb pro 2 lovefest, the 'better-than-a-filco' KUL-es87, and the  topre realforces. They make out they are elite forms of rubber domes. And they have a hierarchy for those who have them depending on how much they spent on them. The in-group i guess including certain viral posters seem to love them some cup rubber like it makes their titties hard when they touch them. Go check out the KUL thread and see the review there and how it has suddenly been raised above the tried and true filco by some of these guys. The hype is well organized. They don't apply the same measure to Razer though. It's all "it might be good, but how do I know it won't break down?". Synapse I do agree is not so good and shouldn't be installed unless you want to. If keys start misbehaving the simple fix is to uninstall it. But, somehow they just know the KUL will outperform, outlast and offer a better keyboarding experience for noobs looking to get the next cool best keyboard cos it just feels so amazing - BETTER THAN A FILCO!

Well, I feel the same way about the razor orange switches. They feel so good, and like you, I've tried everything so why not maybe proclaim them as better than cherry mx? They are not the old Kailh - they are new and improved by Razer after all. BTW is razer sold at elitekeyboards?

Nah , it is all good I am not mad at all.

But people will always have their bias to anything in general. And many follow the majority in a certain community and may convince themselves something is the best and whatever but it happens anywhere. In the end, it only matters the most to the person behind the screen. Not like everyone will recognize in real life what keyboard you got or know the difference.

Also if it is the best for some people, for $300(HHKB) well damn it better if you bought it . However as for me, i am fine.

[DuckNorris]

did razer decide to do a viral marketing run on GH? this coincided with a "razer blackwidow love" thread

No, wtf?

I have owned like 4 different coolermaster keyboards and I think the only thing razer I own is this keyboard and a old mousepad of theirs. Past 4 keyboards coolermaster, before that corsair , a ducky, 2 original IBM model Ms, and such. I am not a razer fanboy as I have crap talked them for years before this but was impressed by this new stuff. Before this keyboard I would be back to recommending other keyboards. Just found a switch I liked.

I don't know the other dude with the love thread and I think I made this before him but not sure. My first posts here were regarding model Ms too, I have gone all over and was surprised I would ever like anything keyboard related by this company.

I'm really sorry I caused others to make such assumptions about you and for turning your thread in a direction you would never have intended it to turn. Only thing you and I have in common is we like razer orange switches. I too am surprised and was hesitant to try it because of all the criticisms against Kailhs being naturally inferior as they are chinese made not german.

Stick around and you'll see that elitekeyboards is the major benefactor of the hhkb pro 2 lovefest, the 'better-than-a-filco' KUL-es87, and the  topre realforces. They make out they are elite forms of rubber domes. And they have a hierarchy for those who have them depending on how much they spent on them. The in-group i guess including certain viral posters seem to love them some cup rubber like it makes their titties hard when they touch them. Go check out the KUL thread and see the review there and how it has suddenly been raised above the tried and true filco by some of these guys. The hype is well organized. They don't apply the same measure to Razer though. It's all "it might be good, but how do I know it won't break down?". Synapse I do agree is not so good and shouldn't be installed unless you want to. If keys start misbehaving the simple fix is to uninstall it. But, somehow they just know the KUL will outperform, outlast and offer a better keyboarding experience for noobs looking to get the next cool best keyboard cos it just feels so amazing - BETTER THAN A FILCO!

Well, I feel the same way about the razor orange switches. They feel so good, and like you, I've tried everything so why not maybe proclaim them as better than cherry mx? They are not the old Kailh - they are new and improved by Razer after all. BTW is razer sold at elitekeyboards?

Nah , it is all good I am not mad at all.

But people will always have their bias to anything in general. And many follow the majority in a certain community and may convince themselves something is the best and whatever but it happens anywhere. In the end, it only matters the most to the person behind the screen. Not like everyone will recognize in real life what keyboard you got or know the difference.

Also if it is the best for some people, for $300(HHKB) well damn it better if you bought it . However as for me, i am fine with what I got for now. However, I like to give anything a try , specially if they improve.

[tp4tissue]

The problem is that the idea of modern mechanical keyboards is fairly new to the "general public" so as a result reviews will be skewed because most people aren't aware of better alternatives. They compare their experience to their EVERYDAY experience of rubber domes. So of course the mech company that spent the most money on being visible to the market will be the same company that has the most positive reviews.

[/b][/size]

Idk....  I've written several hundred  Fvk-Razrs posts in my day...

[cherpalla]

I honestly don't feel like responding to all of this, but I will say that you can't rate a half a star or 0 stars, the median is 3, not 2.5.

A bit irrelevant considering Amazon can and does tally a very precise median based on the collective vote, hence it's possible for the overall product rating to be 2.5 or any number in-between. Thus, the collective median rating between 1 and 5 would be 2.5.

My comment about it not being limited to GHers was to point out that this isn't an elitist opinion, those of us that have an issue with Razer on GH are joined by people who know little to nothing about Mechanical Keyboards at all.

I'm not sure that anyone you were replying to was leveling the accusation that it was some sort of elitist opinion. My comment was simply to point out that if buyer ratings are any indication, most Blackwidow reviewers on Amazon are apparently satisfied. What I wasn't doing was implying that your experience is irrelevant.

No, the median is 3. The median has to be on the scale you are given. Since 2.5 is not an option, it cannot be the median. A median is the number in the middle of a set. The arithmetic mean, or average, of the scale is also 3. [(1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)/5] = 3.

And yes, if you scroll back, you can see that I am accused of being financially bound to having a negative outlook and that GHers are being snobs when it comes to Razer. I was pointing out that we aren't the only ones that have had a negative experience, but I've certainly said repeatedly I don't think it's the majority of people. Some products have better overall reviews than others, and the BlackWidow is one of them, but still not immune to the experiences I've had with their other products by any means.

[tp4tissue]

I honestly don't feel like responding to all of this, but I will say that you can't rate a half a star or 0 stars, the median is 3, not 2.5.

A bit irrelevant considering Amazon can and does tally a very precise median based on the collective vote, hence it's possible for the overall product rating to be 2.5 or any number in-between. Thus, the collective median rating between 1 and 5 would be 2.5.

My comment about it not being limited to GHers was to point out that this isn't an elitist opinion, those of us that have an issue with Razer on GH are joined by people who know little to nothing about Mechanical Keyboards at all.

I'm not sure that anyone you were replying to was leveling the accusation that it was some sort of elitist opinion. My comment was simply to point out that if buyer ratings are any indication, most Blackwidow reviewers on Amazon are apparently satisfied. What I wasn't doing was implying that your experience is irrelevant.

No, the median is 3. The median has to be on the scale you are given. Since 2.5 is not an option, it cannot be the median. A median is the number in the middle of a set. The arithmetic mean, or average, of the scale is also 3. [(1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)/5] = 3.

And yes, if you scroll back, you can see that I am accused of being financially bound to having a negative outlook and that GHers are being snobs when it comes to Razer. I was pointing out that we aren't the only ones that have had a negative experience, but I've certainly said repeatedly I don't think it's the majority of people. Some products have better overall reviews than others, and the BlackWidow is one of them, but still not immune to the experiences I've had with their other products by any means.

Financially bound to having a negative outlook ?  wtf does that even mean..  that's like something I would write, except worse, and makes even less sense..

[SpAmRaY]

The in-group i guess including certain viral posters seem to love them some cup rubber like it makes their titties hard when they touch them.

best post in this thread so far  )

[tp4tissue]

The in-group i guess including certain viral posters seem to love them some cup rubber like it makes their titties hard when they touch them.

best post in this thread so far  )

I find the entire thread irrelevant...   The Ergodox is salvation to Any and ALL keyboard problems..

I also don't understand what people are arguing about, since they seem to be talking about different things all together..

[1391406]

No, the median is 3. The median has to be on the scale you are given. Since 2.5 is not an option, it cannot be the median. A median is the number in the middle of a set. The arithmetic mean, or average, of the scale is also 3. [(1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)/5] = 3.

However, you keep referring to individual rather than the collective median rating. The only way you can achieve a consensus is by evaluating a lot of opinions in aggregate, as positive or negative opinions are worthless on their own. Amazon's aggregate (ie. not individual) voting average has a median of 2.5. Want an example?

And yes, if you scroll back, you can see that I am accused of being financially bound to having a negative outlook and that GHers are being snobs when it comes to Razer.

What I saw was a disagreement over whether problems with some products were due to user error or quality control on Razer's part:

Hmm, I've had my Razer BWU, Kraken headset, and deathadder for like a year with heavy use. Not a single issue with any of it.. And the stuff takes a beating... Maybe I'm just lucky??

Might be luck or maybe you just don't use your gear heavily enough? Idk.

When I got my Kraken, I noticed the mic literally sucked ass. I've gone through about 5 deathadders as they all started having problems after around 6-8 months each. I've had 3 blackwidows and they all suffered from various issues as well. I was fed up with my ****ty Razer gear, and thus I started Googling, found GH and joined to find better peripherals.

I ALWAYS ignore mic reviews... 99.99% of the time its something wrong with your rig. I've had numerous headsets and EVERY SINGLE ONE had complaints about the mic by people. I have NEVER, except on one $4 headset, had an issue with a mic being crappy. This Kraken mic sounds perfect. I had a deathadder die too... after spilling something on it.

And the fact that you've killed a dozen different peripherals just boggles my mind... They may have a bad egg or two, but something else is/was going on there.

Nope, you're wrong. I've had over 10 other microphones - no issues... only with the Kraken. I said " I've gone through about 5 deathadders as they all started having problems after around 6-8 months each. I've had 3 blackwidows and they all suffered from various issues as well." - I didn't say I "killed" any of them. Do you not know how to read?

"Various issues" 100% not caused by anything else besides bad quality? Doubt it.

You can check other forums for complaints about Razer products as well, it's certainly not limited to GHers.

I was pointing out that we aren't the only ones that have had a negative experience, but I've certainly said repeatedly I don't think it's the majority of people. Some products have better overall reviews than others, and the BlackWidow is one of them, but still not immune to the experiences I've had with their other products by any means.

If you read my original reply, I wasn't being all-inclusive. I singled out the Blackwidow specifically. I haven't spent much time looking at reviews for their other products.

[Lastpilot]

I also don't understand what people are arguing about, since they seem to be talking about different things all together..

+1

I tried to join in the conversation but I think this is out of our hands now...We're getting into statistics lol for what?

Who cares about reviews? Just take a take a picture and look at the quality of the PCB that the Black Widow uses and it's done.

Show Image

Show Image

Guess which one is Razer Blackwidow's.

[1391406]

Who cares about reviews?

Keyboard enthusiasts, which is obviously why so many are posted on this site.

[Lastpilot]

Who cares about reviews?

Keyboard enthusiasts, which is obviously why so many are posted on this site.

It's not the number/statistics of reviews that we look at. We look at the HARD evidence posted in reviews. Keycap thickness. PCB quality. Soldering quality. We don't care about the NUMBER of complaints; we care about what is CAUSING them.

[1391406]

Who cares about reviews?

Keyboard enthusiasts, which is obviously why so many are posted on this site.

It's not the number/statistics of reviews that we look at. We look at the HARD evidence posted in reviews. Keycap thickness. PCB quality. Soldering quality. We don't care about the NUMBER of complaints; we care about what is CAUSING them.

Not all keyboard enthusiasts value the same qualities equally. Further, the ratings I originally posted were simply to show that the average consumer is generally satisfied with Razer's Blackwidow(which pertains to the topic of the thread). As such, the reviews simply represent a consensus, and if the mean result ordains that a product is "good", it simply presents a likelihood proposition to the next consumer that they will have a similar opinion or experience with it. Whether you or anyone else considers a keyboard (such as the BW) bad because it doesn't retain attributes you associate with a quality keyboard can be a bit subjective, in my opinion.

[Lastpilot]

Also I'd appreciate it if you didn't quote me out of context.

My earlier post in this thread clearly shows that I do recognize that people care about reviews. I do recognize that people, especially GHers care about reviews. That's one of the reasons why I'm the only person who's topic has been stickied in the Review forum. HOWEVER, there are certain assumptions you make when you base your opinion solely on numbers of reviews.

-People who are more likely to write reviews may come from a certain audience and do not accurately reflect the opinions of owners
-We can observe the numbers of owners that write reviews, but the number of owners who do NOT write reviews outweigh that vastly and are unobserved [proven by sales figures vs. review numbers]

THUS

-We cannot assume that a consensus of online reviews represents a consensus of product owners


My point is that I think we should be focusing on the board itself rather than what people's opinion are on it. We can clearly observe physical objects like PCB thickness and in-factory soldering, and I think that discussion would yield a more productive argument in researching how the Black Widow stacks against other boards in its price range.

I'm not here to argue with anyone, I just think that if you want to REALLY evaluate a board, you shouldn't be doing so based on the false notion that online reviews of a product represent the consensus of all owners of that product. We should be looking at physical evidence and physically comparing it with its competition.

[HoffmanMyster]

No, the median is 3. The median has to be on the scale you are given. Since 2.5 is not an option, it cannot be the median. A median is the number in the middle of a set. The arithmetic mean, or average, of the scale is also 3. [(1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)/5] = 3.

However, you keep referring to individual rather than the collective median rating. The only way you can achieve a consensus is by evaluating a lot of opinions in aggregate, as positive or negative opinions are worthless on their own. Amazon's aggregate (ie. not individual) voting average has a median of 2.5. Want an example?

That's a mean.  You can't have a median with a sample size of two.

[tp4tissue]

No, the median is 3. The median has to be on the scale you are given. Since 2.5 is not an option, it cannot be the median. A median is the number in the middle of a set. The arithmetic mean, or average, of the scale is also 3. [(1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)/5] = 3.

However, you keep referring to individual rather than the collective median rating. The only way you can achieve a consensus is by evaluating a lot of opinions in aggregate, as positive or negative opinions are worthless on their own. Amazon's aggregate (ie. not individual) voting average has a median of 2.5. Want an example?

That's a mean.  You can't have a median with a sample size of two.

ah.. u take the avg dude..

[1391406]

Also I'd appreciate it if you didn't quote me out of context.

My earlier post in this thread clearly shows that I do recognize that people care about reviews. I do recognize that people, especially GHers care about reviews. That's one of the reasons why I'm the only person who's topic has been stickied in the Review forum. HOWEVER, there are certain assumptions you make when you base your opinion solely on numbers of reviews.

-People who are more likely to write reviews may come from a certain audience and do not accurately reflect the opinions of owners
-We can observe the numbers of owners that write reviews, but the number of owners who do NOT write reviews outweigh that vastly and are unobserved [proven by sales figures vs. review numbers]

THUS

-We cannot assume that a consensus of online reviews represents a consensus of product owners

It doesn't represent a consensus of all product owners, but if we consider Amazon and Newegg a microcosm of the buying public, it represents a consensus based on the reviews of over 230 people, which is a far larger sample size for a single product than what's afforded on this forum. Further, those reviews are given more weight when corroborated by tech sites that review products professionally.

My point is that I think we should be focusing on the board itself rather than what people's opinion are on it. We can clearly observe physical objects like PCB thickness and in-factory soldering, and I think that discussion would yield a more productive argument in researching how the Black Widow stacks against other boards in its price range.

Not all users are particularly concerned about PCB thickness or in-factory soldering. Some are primarily concerned with aesthetics and/or feel, and the software (if any) that accompanies it. Obviously no one wants a board that's unreliable, but if most people aren't having a problem, in-factory soldering would probably be a non-issue for them, even if it stands to reason that shoddy soldering would yield a keyboard with a higher defect rate.

I'm not here to argue with anyone, I just think that if you want to REALLY evaluate a board, you shouldn't be doing so based on the false notion that online reviews of a product represent the consensus of all owners of that product. We should be looking at physical evidence and physically comparing it with its competition.

Like I said, I never claimed online reviews are an exhaustive consensus, but merely that it's often a decent enough representative sample, especially when combined with reviews from other reputable sources.

[pbtforever]

That's a mean.  You can't have a median with a sample size of two.

Lol.  Math skillz.

[1391406]

That's a mean.  You can't have a median with a sample size of two.

Oh, I don't know. According to this median calculator: (1+4)/2 = 2.5

If you prefer a larger sample size, though.

[1391406]

Lol.  Math skillz.

Not my forte by any stretch as evidenced by my ignorance of basic terminology.

[Lastpilot]

It doesn't represent a consensus of all product owners, but if we consider Amazon and Newegg a microcosm of the buying public, it represents a consensus based on the reviews of over 230 people, which is a far larger sample size for a single product than what's afforded on this forum. Further, those reviews are given more weight when corroborated by tech sites that review products professionally.

You are missing my point. My point is that the reviewing public != buying public THUS we cannot put too much weight on reviews, microcosms or not. What we CAN put weight on are physical observables which can lead to a fair comparison to competing products.

Not all users are particularly concerned about PCB thickness or in-factory soldering. Some are primarily concerned with aesthetics and/or feel, and the software (if any) that accompanies it. Obviously no one wants a board that's unreliable, but if most people aren't having a problem, in-factory soldering would probably be a non-issue for them, even if it stands to reason that shoddy soldering would yield a keyboard with a higher defect rate.

Whether a product is dependable or not is not a matter of what users care about; that is another thing entirely. It is a matter of what the board actually is. It is a matter of how build quality like in-factory soldering can be clues to failure rates. I think you misunderstand my point, we need to take people OUT of the equation and focus on the actual product. We can find observable clues in the factory processes of Razer within their products themselves rather than reading opinion on the internet. A reputable review is a review that shows undisputed physical evidence of a stance [debounce rates, pixel walk, frequency range etc.]

Like I said, I never claimed online reviews are an exhaustive consensus, but merely that it's often a decent enough representative sample, especially when combined with reviews from other reputable sources.

My point is that it is NOT a representative sample, because it is not a RANDOM sample. These are people who CHOOSE or are somehow compelled to do reviews, thus coming from a subset audience of the general public.

[1391406]

It doesn't represent a consensus of all product owners, but if we consider Amazon and Newegg a microcosm of the buying public, it represents a consensus based on the reviews of over 230 people, which is a far larger sample size for a single product than what's afforded on this forum. Further, those reviews are given more weight when corroborated by tech sites that review products professionally.

You are missing my point. My point is that the reviewing public != buying public THUS we cannot put too much weight on reviews, microcosms or not. What we CAN put weight on are physical observables which can lead to a fair comparison to competing products.

Empirical data has its place, but if empirical data is all that mattered, one would only need look at the data sheet or pictures of a product and its internals in order to determine if it's worthwhile. However, in reality, nothing can replace actually looking at, feeling, and using it for yourself, which is why people rely on the next best thing; someone else's experience. For example, I can look at the quantifiable, empirical data on various microphones all day long, however that won't tell me how they actually sound when recorded. It's true, I can get a good idea of the quality of the hardware based on how it's soldered, but there's more to a great product than the quality of the wiring, soldering, and PCB design. There are a lot of subjective qualities that can't easily be boiled down and/or quantified.

Not all users are particularly concerned about PCB thickness or in-factory soldering. Some are primarily concerned with aesthetics and/or feel, and the software (if any) that accompanies it. Obviously no one wants a board that's unreliable, but if most people aren't having a problem, in-factory soldering would probably be a non-issue for them, even if it stands to reason that shoddy soldering would yield a keyboard with a higher defect rate.

Whether a product is dependable or not is not a matter of what users care about; that is another thing entirely. It is a matter of what the board actually is. It is a matter of how build quality like in-factory soldering can be clues to failure rates. I think you misunderstand my point, we need to take people OUT of the equation and focus on the actual product. We can find observable clues in the factory processes of Razer within their products themselves rather than reading opinion on the internet. A reputable review is a review that shows undisputed physical evidence of a stance [debounce rates, pixel walk, frequency range etc.]

Well, can you explain how the empirical data as it relates to the internals of an IBM Model M and Model F tell me anything about how the two feel comparatively, for example? It can't, but people can. Thus, empirical data has its place in determining the reliability of a product, but do you really believe everyone uses such data as the sole basis for determining whether they'll buy a keyboard or not? Empirical evidence is one part of the equation, but it's hardly the be-all-end-all in terms of buying motivation for most consumers nor is it a replacement for hands-on, human experience.

Like I said, I never claimed online reviews are an exhaustive consensus, but merely that it's often a decent enough representative sample, especially when combined with reviews from other reputable sources.

My point is that it is NOT a representative sample, because it is not a RANDOM sample. These are people who CHOOSE or are somehow compelled to do reviews, thus coming from a subset audience of the general public.

Do scientists abduct participants for research studies or do people choose to participate? Unlike some research studies, Amazon doesn't pay participants to write reviews.

[Lastpilot]

I'm sorry but I think we are dealing with apples and oranges here. You keep going back to how things feel and how keyboards make people happy. I am only talking about the failure rates of the black widow.

Do scientists abduct participants for research studies or do people choose to participate? Unlike some research studies, Amazon doesn't pay participants to write reviews.

Choosing to participate is fine, as long as they don't know what factors are being studied. Research studies often incorporate blind experiments like placebo effect etc. Blind experiments help reduce bias. Product reviews are not blind experiments because people CHOOSE to evaluate a certain product and already know what is in question.

It has nothing to do with paying people to do reviews, that is neither here nor there.

[HoffmanMyster]

That's a mean.  You can't have a median with a sample size of two.

Oh, I don't know. According to this median calculator: (1+4)/2 = 2.5

Okay, perhaps I should have chosen my words better.

You can't have a meaningful median with a sample size of two.  Because it becomes the same as the mean and loses the value of what makes median different from mean.

If you prefer a larger sample size, though.

This is indeed a larger sample size, but once again that's the mean score, not median.  I feel silly for continuing to discuss this tangential point, and I'm sorry for that, but I just want to clarify this point.

[1391406]

I'm sorry but I think we are dealing with apples and oranges here. You keep going back to how things feel and how keyboards make people happy. I am only talking about the failure rates of the black widow.

Was the basis for this thread (and my original reply) related solely to failure rates or other, more subjective factors, such as key feel, for example?

Do scientists abduct participants for research studies or do people choose to participate? Unlike some research studies, Amazon doesn't pay participants to write reviews.

Choosing to participate is fine, as long as they don't know what factors are being studied. Research studies often incorporate blind experiments like placebo effect etc. Blind experiments help reduce bias. Product reviews are not blind experiments because people CHOOSE to evaluate a certain product and already know what is in question.

As if contradictory conclusions from various blind and double blind studies don't exist.

For starters, I never claimed Amazon reviews were based on a scientific standard. Obviously they're not, however when corroborated by reviews from various other reputable sources, one doesn't necessarily need a double blind study, nor would a double blind study guarantee satisfaction. Secondly, do you consider the reviews on this forum to be a proper representative sample? How many members here seem to have a problem with the fact that reviewers on this forum don't invoke blind or double blind studies when reviewing keyboards, or that they often relate primarily experiential data?

[1391406]

That's a mean.  You can't have a median with a sample size of two.

Oh, I don't know. According to this median calculator: (1+4)/2 = 2.5

Okay, perhaps I should have chosen my words better.

You can't have a meaningful median with a sample size of two.  Because it becomes the same as the mean and loses the value of what makes median different from mean.

If you prefer a larger sample size, though.

This is indeed a larger sample size, but once again that's the mean score, not median.  I feel silly for continuing to discuss this tangential point, and I'm sorry for that, but I just want to clarify this point.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Lastpilot]

Was the basis for this thread (and my original reply) related solely to failure rates or other, more subjective factors, such as key feel, for example?

My post regarding the picture of the controller PCB from the black widow was meant to serve as observable possible evidence for failure rates.

Amazon reviews or not, a popular discussion with Razer products is its failure rate. You are the one who keeps evaluating keyboards as "good" or "bad". I never participated in that discussion. I am concerned solely with DEPENDABILITY.

"Whether a product is dependable or not is not a matter of what users care about; that is another thing entirely"
^ You keep going into that "another thing entirely" category.

As if contradictory conclusions from various blind and double blind studies don't exist.

For starters, I never claimed Amazon reviews were based on a scientific standard. Obviously they're not, however when corroborated by reviews from various other reputable sources, one doesn't necessarily need a double blind study, nor would a double blind study guarantee satisfaction. Secondly, do you consider the reviews on this forum to be a proper representative sample? How many members here seem to have a problem with the fact that reviewers on this forum don't invoke blind or double blind studies when reviewing keyboards, or that they often relate primarily experiential data?

No I do not consider the reviews on this forum to be a proper representative sample, but that does not matter to me because I do not base my buying decisions on the sum, mean or median or meaningful median of reviews, but rather what is actually inside the review. As I have stated before, a reputable review will definitely cite quantifiable data. For someone who is so cautious about being accused of exhaustive claims, you make many assumptions that my statements are also exhaustive.

[cherpalla]

No, the median is 3. The median has to be on the scale you are given. Since 2.5 is not an option, it cannot be the median. A median is the number in the middle of a set. The arithmetic mean, or average, of the scale is also 3. [(1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)/5] = 3.

However, you keep referring to individual rather than the collective median rating. The only way you can achieve a consensus is by evaluating a lot of opinions in aggregate, as positive or negative opinions are worthless on their own. Amazon's aggregate (ie. not individual) voting average has a median of 2.5. Want an example?

And yes, if you scroll back, you can see that I am accused of being financially bound to having a negative outlook and that GHers are being snobs when it comes to Razer.

What I saw was a disagreement over whether problems with some products were due to user error or quality control on Razer's part:

Hmm, I've had my Razer BWU, Kraken headset, and deathadder for like a year with heavy use. Not a single issue with any of it.. And the stuff takes a beating... Maybe I'm just lucky??

Might be luck or maybe you just don't use your gear heavily enough? Idk.

When I got my Kraken, I noticed the mic literally sucked ass. I've gone through about 5 deathadders as they all started having problems after around 6-8 months each. I've had 3 blackwidows and they all suffered from various issues as well. I was fed up with my ****ty Razer gear, and thus I started Googling, found GH and joined to find better peripherals.

I ALWAYS ignore mic reviews... 99.99% of the time its something wrong with your rig. I've had numerous headsets and EVERY SINGLE ONE had complaints about the mic by people. I have NEVER, except on one $4 headset, had an issue with a mic being crappy. This Kraken mic sounds perfect. I had a deathadder die too... after spilling something on it.

And the fact that you've killed a dozen different peripherals just boggles my mind... They may have a bad egg or two, but something else is/was going on there.

Nope, you're wrong. I've had over 10 other microphones - no issues... only with the Kraken. I said " I've gone through about 5 deathadders as they all started having problems after around 6-8 months each. I've had 3 blackwidows and they all suffered from various issues as well." - I didn't say I "killed" any of them. Do you not know how to read?

"Various issues" 100% not caused by anything else besides bad quality? Doubt it.

You can check other forums for complaints about Razer products as well, it's certainly not limited to GHers.

I was pointing out that we aren't the only ones that have had a negative experience, but I've certainly said repeatedly I don't think it's the majority of people. Some products have better overall reviews than others, and the BlackWidow is one of them, but still not immune to the experiences I've had with their other products by any means.

If you read my original reply, I wasn't being all-inclusive. I singled out the Blackwidow specifically. I haven't spent much time looking at reviews for their other products.

You don't seem to understand the math involved here.

The scale is a set of whole integers: [1, 2, 3, 4, 5].

The median of the scale is the whole integer which falls in the middle of the set, and if the set's length is odd, exists in the set, of this set it would be [3]. (If the set's length is even, then you divide the two integers in the middle and take their average as the median). So, as I told you before, since 0 is not in the set, 2.5 is not the median.

The mean, or average, of the scale is the combined values of the set, divided by the length of the set, again [(1+2+3+4+5)/5) = 3.

Therefore, we can expect that users will respond in the following way to score a product, using the scale:

1: Poor
2: Below Average
3: Average
4: Above Average
5: Excellent

The other set of numbers you are describing is a set of possible resulting averages of total user responses. Which would be [1,1.5,2,2.5,3,3.5,4,4.5,5].

The median and mean/average of these digits is also 3. [(1+1.5+2+2.5+3+3.5+4+4.5+5)/9) = 3.

An average of the set of the responses (I'm not going to list them, as there are 226, but do you see how this is different than the average of the scale?) of 4 stars out of 5 on this scale indicates that 37% of 226 reviewers found this product to be above average or worse. 22% of 226 reviewers found this product to be average or below. 15% of 226 reviewers believe this product is below average or poor. So while 63% of reviewers found the product to be excellent, I would not call that an overwhelming response, which is why I chose the wording I did.

Beyond that, I chose to read plenty of the 4 and 5 star reviews,  and many of them indicate issues with the quality of the product they originally received, but a satisfactory experience with Razer's customer service.

As for your other response, I don't even know what you're trying to say, honestly. I was just saying I'm not saying BlackWidows are as bad as some of their other products and I'm not being an elitist nor do I have some sort of financial aspect working here by sharing my experience. That isn't only directed at you, it was more in response to the thread in general.

I stand by my statement. The response has been better than others regarding this product, but it's not overwhelmingly positive, especially considering that many of the 4/5 star reviews reflect on customer service to make up for the receipt of products that stopped working quickly or arrived defective.

[1391406]

Was the basis for this thread (and my original reply) related solely to failure rates or other, more subjective factors, such as key feel, for example?

My post regarding the picture of the controller PCB from the black widow was meant to serve as observable possible evidence for failure rates.

Amazon reviews or not, a popular discussion with Razer products is its failure rate. You are the one who keeps evaluating keyboards as "good" or "bad". I never participated in that discussion. I am concerned solely with DEPENDABILITY.

If you're not concerned with the subjective quality as part of the overall rating pertaining to Blackwidows, then why suggest that reviews are irrelevant when the idea was suggested in reference to their overall appeal, not strictly reliability, though that was definitely a part of the equation.

"Whether a product is dependable or not is not a matter of what users care about; that is another thing entirely"
^ You keep going into that "another thing entirely" category.

Yes, because that's what I was referring to regarding my original sentiments related to reviews which you replied to out of context. My original comment regarding Amazon reviews was directed at cherpalla, not you. In terms of reliability and Amazon reviews though, anyone can write a review at any time and they don't even have to have purchased the product from Amazon. Thus, if people were having major reliability issues, what reason would I have to believe it wouldn't be reflected in said reviews?

No I do not consider the reviews on this forum to be a proper representative sample, but that does not matter to me because I do not base my buying decisions on the sum, mean or median or meaningful median of reviews, but rather what is actually inside the review.

Do you base it strictly on one review or several? Further, how many reputable sources can you cite for keyboard reviews aside from this forum? For instance, would you consider Tom's Hardware reputable source?

As I have stated before, a reputable review will definitely cite quantifiable data. For someone who is so cautious about being accused of exhaustive claims, you make many assumptions that my statements are also exhaustive.

Such as?

[Lastpilot]

To clarify even further, here are the three main points I wanted to make during this discussion:

- Gathering review data solely from quantity of x/5-star-reviews is not very useful data in the first place
- The fact that a review is positive or negative is not as important as why that review was positive or negative; that is where the useful data comes in
- The often-associated failure rate of the black widow can be evidenced by pictures of its PCB

Things you have accused me of that are not true:

-I don't care about reviews
-I limit myself to objectivity
-I want to invoke scientific standards onto all reviews

[Lastpilot]

As I have stated before, a reputable review will definitely cite quantifiable data. For someone who is so cautious about being accused of exhaustive claims, you make many assumptions that my statements are also exhaustive.

Such as?

"Keyboard enthusiasts, which is obviously why so many are posted on this site."
- You inform me of this, which is logically equivalent to stating that I am somehow unaware or in denial of it.

"Empirical data has its place, but if empirical data is all that mattered..."
- I never said that empirical data is all that mattered, yet you go on typing paragraphs arguing against a statement I have never made.

"As if contradictory conclusions from various blind and double blind studies don't exist."
- I never disagreed with that statement or said that blind experiments were perfect, but you somehow find more points to argue with me on more statements that I have never made.

"For starters, I never claimed Amazon reviews were based on a scientific standard. "
- I never said accused you of it either, lol. I am simply saying you cannot base theories on quantities of amazon reviews without acknowledging the problems associated with that.

------

Somehow you have found all kinds of ways to argue with me against points that I have never made. I am not sure whether you completely misunderstand me or if you are just having a bad day and want to argue with somebody.

[DuckNorris]

I also don't understand what people are arguing about, since they seem to be talking about different things all together..

+1

I tried to join in the conversation but I think this is out of our hands now...We're getting into statistics lol for what?

Who cares about reviews? Just take a take a picture and look at the quality of the PCB that the Black Widow uses and it's done.

Show Image

Show Image

Guess which one is Razer Blackwidow's.

However, this PCB has lasted people for ages in some cases, in some is in your favor. Is it lower quality? Yes, but does it do the job well enough for most? Overall yeah, although it would be nice if they included a better one.

Also, was this in the 2014 BlackWidow or not?

As long as my typing is fast for a programmer like me that it has so far I don't particularly care about that since the only reason I got this keyboard was for the switches which I am really enjoying atm.I understand this will increase  a probability something may go wrong with this but my liking of these switches is worth taking a risk for now.

[Lastpilot]

No, that is quoted from 2012 lolol. There is a good chance their components have changed. From what I've observed the 2013/14 Deathadders compared to older versions there were vast improvements.

[DuckNorris]

No, that is quoted from 2012 lolol. There is a good chance their components have changed. From what I've observed the 2013/14 Deathadders compared to older versions there were vast improvements.

I would take this one apart to check but as it is my only keyboard atm (rest back home, some broken etc) and I have not time I don't think I will be able to lol.

Ah all right was just confirming.

[1391406]

To clarify even further, here are the three main points I wanted to make during this discussion:

- Gathering review data solely from quantity of x/5-star-reviews is not very useful data in the first place

Obviously it's useful for those interested in what others think, otherwise no one would bother to read or write those reviews.

The often-associated failure rate of the black widow can be evidenced by pictures of its PCB

It stands to reason it could be a contributing factor, but if it were exceedingly high, what reason would I have to believe it wouldn't be reflected in a vast number of reviews, not just on Amazon, but YouTube, tech sites, etc.? From what I can see, most of the people who are complaining seem to be in the minority.

Things you have accused me of that are not true:

-I don't care about reviews

"Who cares about reviews? Just take a take a picture and look at the quality of the PCB that the Black Widow uses and it's done."?

-I limit myself to objectivity

"we need to take people OUT of the equation and focus on the actual product"

"We can find observable clues in the factory processes of Razer within their products themselves rather than reading opinion on the internet. A reputable review is a review that shows undisputed physical evidence of a stance [debounce rates, pixel walk, frequency range etc."

"Just take a take a picture and look at the quality of the PCB that the Black Widow uses and it's done."

-I want to invoke scientific standards onto all reviews

Quote please.

Here is what you've stated:

"No I do not consider the reviews on this forum to be a proper representative sample, but that does not matter to me because I do not base my buying decisions on the sum, mean or median or meaningful median of reviews, but rather what is actually inside the review. As I have stated before, a reputable review will definitely cite quantifiable data."

Comments such as the aforementioned tend to imply that your primary focus is on data that is quantifiable / empirical. I never claimed that you wanted to invoke a scientific standard onto all reviews, however. I did state that I never claimed Amazon reviews were based on some sort of scientific standard, and I also asked how many members here invoke double blind studies in their reviews, that is since you called the sampling pool of Amazon's reviews into question.

[1391406]

As I have stated before, a reputable review will definitely cite quantifiable data. For someone who is so cautious about being accused of exhaustive claims, you make many assumptions that my statements are also exhaustive.

Such as?

"Keyboard enthusiasts, which is obviously why so many are posted on this site."
- You inform me of this, which is logically equivalent to stating that I am somehow unaware or in denial of it.

Then why ask, "Who cares about reviews?" Then you follow that up with the notion that images of the PCB are all one needs.

"Empirical data has its place, but if empirical data is all that mattered..."
- I never said that empirical data is all that mattered, yet you go on typing paragraphs arguing against a statement I have never made.

"What we CAN put weight on are physical observables which can lead to a fair comparison to competing products."

How much weight do you put on empirical vs. subjective / experiential data? Your comments seem to indicate that you're primarily focused on empirical data.

"As if contradictory conclusions from various blind and double blind studies don't exist."
- I never disagreed with that statement or said that blind experiments were perfect, but you somehow find more points to argue with me on more statements that I have never made.

You injected the notion that blind studies help reduce bias. I was pointing out that they're not necessarily reliable. That's it and that's all.

"For starters, I never claimed Amazon reviews were based on a scientific standard. "
- I never said accused you of it either, lol. I am simply saying you cannot base theories on quantities of amazon reviews without acknowledging the problems associated with that.

To put it another way, I never claimed Amazon reviews were without fault. I never claimed they were perfect. In effect, I never claimed they conformed to any sort of scientific standard. Apparently you were under the impression I thought Amazon reviews didn't have problems, which I assume is why you invoked the suggestion that they don't rise to the level of blind studies. Why else?

Somehow you have found all kinds of ways to argue with me against points that I have never made.

You're referring to straw men, and you're erecting quite a few of them yourself.

[Lastpilot]

Again you keep misunderstanding me. I'm not sure how much more clear I can be but here it goes.

----

"Obviously it's useful for those interested in what others think, otherwise no one would bother to read or write those reviews. That it's not useful for you is a personal preference and I can respect that."
-I am talking about quantity of reviews, not the reviews themselves. The usefulness of the reviews is not solely dependent on the quantity of reviews. Worst case scenario, you can have a million reviews and not learn anything from them.

"It stands to reason it could be a contributing factor, but if it were exceedingly high, what reason would I have to believe it wouldn't be reflected in a vast number of reviews, not just on Amazon, but YouTube, tech sites, etc.? From what I can see, most of the people who are complaining seem to be in the minority."
-I'm not even talking about minorities or majorities. I have already made my point clear that the people who write reviews do not necessarily nor accurately represent the people who have bought the product. They are different statistical pools. That would be a good reason.

-Example: Product recalls. The Mazda RX-8 underwent recalls because of improperly installed seals that would result in engine failure. However, there are few product reviews that show this because the people who did reviews did so within a short amount of time of owning it. The fact that most reviews are time-sensitive causes reviews to be farther from an actual representation of product experience.

-Even if you don't accept that, there are companies that exist where they require their employees to write positive reviews on their own products. Another good reason.

Hell, when I posted that picture I'm was not even talking about the flaws of counting reviews, I was simply showing the product and making a hypothesis. Again you are arguing against points I have never made, while at the same time ignoring my prior arguments.

""Who cares about reviews? Just take a take a picture and look at the quality of the PCB that the Black Widow uses and it's done."?
-This does not mean I do not care about reviews, I just feel that there may be more important issues at hand then the reviews themselves. Like the actual product.

-"insert my objective quotes"
Simply because I cite objectivity is NOT the same as limiting myself to it. I am simply bringing these facts into attention because I feel that they are important. Of course there non-quantifiable aspects of a review; I never refuted that fact, nor did I ever deny it. Again you are arguing points I have never made.

"Comments such as the aforementioned tend to imply that your primary focus is on data that is quantifiable / empirical. I never claimed that you wanted to invoke a scientific standard, however. I did state that I never claimed Amazon reviews were based on some sort of scientific standard, and I also asked how many members here invoke double blind studies in their reviews, that is since you called the sampling pool of Amazon's reviews into question."
-Invoking a blind study inside a geekhack review has nothing to do with citing pools of amazon reviews. I'm not sure how your question pertains to anything regarding the Black Widow. Again you are arguing points I have never made.
- Again, you are basing your arguments on assumed "implied" statements. My primary focus is not on quantifiable data. Quantifiable data is necessary but not exhaustive. I have already stated my main ideas in the points above.