Author Topic: Is it RSI?  (Read 8719 times)

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Offline Linkbane

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Is it RSI?
« on: Tue, 01 October 2013, 23:31:34 »
Hi all. Recently, my typing has suffered quite a bit in terms of speed, but it is not just that I can't type fast, it's that my fingers do something that they never have before, namely stiffen up as I near the end of my typing test. Afterwards, my fingers will often feel weak, as if I just woke from bed and they aren't stretched. I use my fingers a great amount through the day; lots of typing in school, speed typing at lunch often, speed typing at home, and about an hour of fencing each day, and typing posts on GH/other places. I'm wondering if the high amount of effort that I'm putting on my fingers is injury related, and if I should go have it checked out by a doctor.
My average WPM, having declined by a significant amount, is in the mid 120's, and I would say that I type for about two hours a day (not the duration of time I'm on the computer, the actual amount of time my fingers are pressing keys) and fence for one, a highly finger- and arm- based sport as well.

Could this be a problem? Typing is secondary to my fencing, and having my fingers being disabled would be terrible. Is it likely that RSI is what my hands are experiencing?
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Offline hoggy

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 01:20:02 »
I wonder if it might just be fatigue.

Stop speed typing - just work at a comfortable rate.  How long have you been doing the fencing?

Experiences vary, but pain, discomfort and strange tingly sensations are common symptoms of RSI.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 02:39:44 »
Idiot, it's winter....You're cold

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 08:34:49 »
I wonder if it might just be fatigue.

Stop speed typing - just work at a comfortable rate.  How long have you been doing the fencing?

Experiences vary, but pain, discomfort and strange tingly sensations are common symptoms of RSI.

Idiot, it's winter....You're cold
Show Image


I just like doing speed typing as a major hobby, but if I should limit that for my health, I will certainly do that. I've been fencing for a little over 2 1/2 years, but I do it usually four times a week, which contributes. Bad self-diagnosing aside, my fingers are usually very uncomfortable now when I speed type, sometimes the muscle between the thumb/index finger an inch or so back starts feeling rather painful and stiff, even while I'm not typing or anything similar.

@tp4tissue
If you were able to look at my location, it's Houston, Texas. However, I was wrong in assuming that you would know where that was. Here the temperature ranges from 61-82 F. When people are so sore at being talked to directly that they start stalking your threads, it becomes a problem.
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Offline mauri

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 02 October 2013, 13:18:43 »
I wonder if it might just be fatigue.

Stop speed typing - just work at a comfortable rate.  How long have you been doing the fencing?

Experiences vary, but pain, discomfort and strange tingly sensations are common symptoms of RSI.

Idiot, it's winter....You're cold
Show Image


I just like doing speed typing as a major hobby, but if I should limit that for my health, I will certainly do that. I've been fencing for a little over 2 1/2 years, but I do it usually four times a week, which contributes. Bad self-diagnosing aside, my fingers are usually very uncomfortable now when I speed type, sometimes the muscle between the thumb/index finger an inch or so back starts feeling rather painful and stiff, even while I'm not typing or anything similar.

@tp4tissue
If you were able to look at my location, it's Houston, Texas. However, I was wrong in assuming that you would know where that was. Here the temperature ranges from 61-82 F. When people are so sore at being talked to directly that they start stalking your threads, it becomes a problem.

Refrain from typing inside a freezer ಠ_ಠ
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Offline kaltar

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 20:01:11 »
More likely you have RSI. but only a doctor can say that. But what you describe pretty much can be that. Is it in both hands?

I left this post to you in another topic. Here it's reposted

Try this stretch exercises.

1) take your right hand and straighten it, make it all straight with your arm, pointing fingers forward, palm down.
2) move your wrist down (fingers straight to the palm, pointing down), stretching all you can (you will fill it in the TOP of your wrist), and use your left hand to help you stretch, pull it towards you as far as pain lets you for 3 seconds (it may hurt little).
3) straighten your palm to position (1) for 2 seconds.
4) Repeat 10 times.

5) Repeat the 4 steps but for pressing your wrist UP (flex your wrist up, pulling towards you)

6) Repeat the 4 steps, but the 1st position is palm up, and flex your wrist down (Similar to step 5, but pointing down)

Do this before typing and you will see how incredibly it will hurt less. Do this stretching each time you sit on the computer until pain is all gone (it also helps prevent Carpal tunnel!)

Do not worry, but the sooner you attend this issue, the better. RSI and Carpal Tunnel are caused by tons of things, not only typing (it's more commonly caused by the mouse, BTW). You are now looking for ergonomics, and that's a good thing. Remember your posture is more important than the keyboard! (Saying this is heresy here on GH, BTW)

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 03 October 2013, 21:08:10 »
More likely you have RSI. but only a doctor can say that. But what you describe pretty much can be that. Is it in both hands?

I left this post to you in another topic. Here it's reposted

Try this stretch exercises.

1) take your right hand and straighten it, make it all straight with your arm, pointing fingers forward, palm down.
2) move your wrist down (fingers straight to the palm, pointing down), stretching all you can (you will fill it in the TOP of your wrist), and use your left hand to help you stretch, pull it towards you as far as pain lets you for 3 seconds (it may hurt little).
3) straighten your palm to position (1) for 2 seconds.
4) Repeat 10 times.

5) Repeat the 4 steps but for pressing your wrist UP (flex your wrist up, pulling towards you)

6) Repeat the 4 steps, but the 1st position is palm up, and flex your wrist down (Similar to step 5, but pointing down)

Do this before typing and you will see how incredibly it will hurt less. Do this stretching each time you sit on the computer until pain is all gone (it also helps prevent Carpal tunnel!)

Do not worry, but the sooner you attend this issue, the better. RSI and Carpal Tunnel are caused by tons of things, not only typing (it's more commonly caused by the mouse, BTW). You are now looking for ergonomics, and that's a good thing. Remember your posture is more important than the keyboard! (Saying this is heresy here on GH, BTW)

Hah, indeed it is heresy, but sometimes the heresy is the best to hear.
I actually just went to the doctor today, and he believes that it is carpal tunnel, so he's directing me to a 'hand specialist' for further tests. I'll definitely do these exercises when I type.

For knowledge, it is in both hands, my fingers in their entirety just feel tight and unrelaxed no matter what I do with them. Hopefully this will help mitigate symptoms.
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Offline hoggy

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 00:37:50 »
Hang in there, quite a few of us have RSI and keep posting.

While you're waiting to see the specialist, start to make a list of all the things that you could do that might help - and do at least one.

Some ideas you might want to consider -

  rest break software
  text expansion software
  start using the mouse with left hand until you are comfortable and then swap every few days
  consider changing to another layout - it'll mess you up for a while, but it'll be more comfortable
  have a computer and fencing free evening each week
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Burz

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 02:03:05 »
Sounds like fatigue to me.

Muscles gain strength with use only to a certain point. After that point they become overworked, weaker and less responsive.
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 02:30:09 »
Hang in there, quite a few of us have RSI and keep posting.

While you're waiting to see the specialist, start to make a list of all the things that you could do that might help - and do at least one.

Some ideas you might want to consider -

  rest break software
  text expansion software
  start using the mouse with left hand until you are comfortable and then swap every few days
  consider changing to another layout - it'll mess you up for a while, but it'll be more comfortable
  have a computer and fencing free evening each week

Thank you, hoggy. I appreciate the thought a lot. Today I typed rather little and my fingers feel less tensed, so hopefully by the time the appointment swings around I won't have to stop practicing.

Sounds like fatigue to me.

Muscles gain strength with use only to a certain point. After that point they become overworked, weaker and less responsive.

Ahh, didn't know that. So then no matter how strong or not my fingers are, a break is certainly in order.

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Current best: 162 wpm.

Offline kaltar

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 03:11:24 »
I do not think the rest-free option is good.

I went to 2 doctors.
Doctor A) One said to wear wrist-splints. and do not do anything.

did very little typing for 15 days, no improvement.

Doctor B) Friend of mine, orthopedic surgeon. Said to NOT wear wrist splints, cause it's a multi billion dollar industry, they should be used for fractures only. gave me a special therapy called "Dry needling", very painful, but did not see any improvement. Later have 3 weeks of sessions with a laser. No improvement.

Each doctor has an opinion, based on some studies. However, the majority of clinic trials I've found shows improvement on stretching muscles. That really made a difference in me.

Remember that carpal tunnel, even that it hurts in your hands, may be caused in other places, like the arms or shoulders! So I'll say, follow your doctor orders... But the best bet is stretching every day, do yoga if possible and, if you have access to someone that really knows how to do massages for athletic recovery, go to have some.

And yes, try to avoid the mouse all you can. If you started the pain with a new keyboard, stop using it and give it to me for free!!!  :p


Offline Proword

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 03:49:20 »
You could consider changing to a Maltron, which has been specifically designed and refined since 1978 to deal with RSI and keyboard related injuries.

This 1994 paper (updated in 2010)

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/233-computer-related-upper-limb-disorder

contains the following.

"RESULTS

Altogether about 700 (Ed: several thousand as at April 2010) DUAL HANDED MALTRON keyboards are now in use World wide and of these about 100 (Ed: this figure is c. 3000 at April 2010) currently have been effective in enabling operators with RSI to continue in work. The following case information from 20 users confirms that the design target has been achieved. Copies of letters from operators and other information is available on request".

This paper has been based on the work of Stephen Hobday, who can be contacted at Maltron, if you have any queries.

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline blueSmoke

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 06:56:33 »
I thought to write few lines, but the words just crept up.

Been there... done that... and still nothing is changed. I can suggest something different and radical, it works, mostly... for me.

whatever stage in life you are, you have got your fascia tissues bunched up here and there and they are already compressed/shortened and will get worse more and more since they are no longer getting enough replenishment/end of healthy life. There is no modern way they can be reverted. Analogy like the bridge ropes, 100s of tiny ropes connect to a gigantic rope that supports the bridge. You can not align the bridge by using the big rope, rather you have to work with the small ones.

Doctors/physical therapists/voodoo medicine man is useful temporarily as they are basing their research on a human version of guinea pig but the current batch of people are somewhat/much more different than the laboratory specimen they used for clinical studies, blah. Read more about fascia tissues and you will know how much (less?) the doctors know about the human body and where they are/can go wrong.

The followings have worked for ME:

1. Chinese herbal treatment where the herbalist gives you a bunch of dried leaves, twigs, and what not and you have to boil the stuff for couple of hours and drink the resulting god knows what religiously for a few doses. The herbalist told me I am not getting enough blood flow to my arms and gave me the same for for 3 doses. Each time he tailors the stuff for current situation. There are also doses and anti-doses that counter any side effect of some other ingredient. Second dose had side effects, I slept and ate like a pig and got 7+ pounds heavier. After that I was good to go for 2-3 months. But the pain in ( mostly right, but some time left) elbow & palm came back.

Then I searched for an answer and found it.

It is that the whole world is tuned for the right handed, and subconsciously we are using the right hand always. Check your writing, door locks, switch positions, car controls, gestures, there may be much more. Hell, if you watch people you will see they use the right hand to unbutton and pull the shirts, why? the shirts have button on the left side, so you have to use right!!! How about the trouser zippers?

Now if you look at your arms, they are not really built like the right hand is huge to work all day and left is tiny? They are built almost the same expecting balanced work. In other words we probably have already over used the right arm and it is either worn out or is going to sooner while the left is in the healthy territory. One good news is unlike robot hands our hands are repaired every instant by body. So the only answer to the above question is may be the arm is  not getting replenished as much it needs. So either replenish it or more some of the right operation to the left.

2. I am actively trying to move a lot of these so called day to day activity so that there is some balance between both hands and the right can heal. It is helping, but difficult to de-learn the brain signals.

3. Stretching: This is pretty interesting. Stretching works but after a few days it does not. The culprit lies in the way we do it. We work hard and after some time feel pretty wound up and do a little bit of stretching, some guys do it one time, some go to gym etc. Everybody thinks it is working but they are merely kicking the can a little ahead. The right way may be to stretch only after you reduce/eliminate the muscle activity signal, this way the stretching is more permanent and body does not fight it. I have been trying this, semi successful, but a long way to go.

4. Sleep: Watch babies, they have a pattern. Watch them before they go to sleep and after they wake up. You will find some answers.

5. Finally diet: I am opening a can of worms, but this is one of the most important thing that is helping RSI? What? How?

OK, I define meat eater as somebody who eats meat as primary diet, that mean breakfast thru diner. The alternative is not vegetarian, which has become almost a taboo. I have created a healthy alternative... 'just eater' :) , I consider myself mostly a vegetarian, only in the sense that I eat a little meat, some chicken, fish etc but mostly a lot of vegetables etc.

The issue of current meat eaters is that they are eating a very unbalanced diet since the animals they are consuming are also consuming... mostly corn, even the cow, a grass eating animal is fed 85-90% corn. Ever thought why the chicken and the beef taste almost similar?

So, assuming that majority of Americans are meat eaters, and the only vegetable they eat is that thin slice of lettuce in a sandwich which is 99% water and rest 1% is genetically modified something, how do you suggest you get body's ingredients, say phyto-nutrients, vitamins & other proteins apart from the animal protein? I have not even started talking about the drip irrigation farming, pesticides/herbicides thru drip, chemical spray before and after harvesting, controlled/rationed animal food leading to ingredient empty meat, bovine growth hormones and lot more things. The bottom line is you may not be eating right or eating for your body and the body is  not fool, it is catching up to all these years of abuse. Have you seen college kids complaining palm/elbow  pain? I did not see 10-15 years ago, but now a days you can see that. How about obese kids weighing 150 pounds? Yes, started happening in rest of the world where the GM foods and pre-packaged foods have gone.

tldr;
short term: go to your doc and get fixed/patched/repaired, might work temporarily/forever.
long term: Things are not well and they will only get worse in future. Take charge. Nobody will take responsibility for their actions.

P.S. When I see another guy who is in the RSI bandwagon and getting/may get misdiagnosed I am compelled to throw in my 2 cents.
Model M, Filco Tenkeyless White, Few others, few more others, Noise-hater (ongoing project), blah-blah (to be fillled later...)

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 11:30:28 »
Ack, deleted my entire post. In summary, the advice is quite helpful, although I think that you overanalyze some parts. Diet really doesn't affect the strain on your muscles for sure. Adjusting balance should help a lot, so thank you; my parents know many people in herbal medicine so help shouldn't be too difficult to find, and I'll know where to find it if the brace doesn't help. Thanks for the advice!
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Offline Thimplum

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 11:34:15 »
I'd say that to stop any further injury, don't push your typing speed so much.

you're gonna hate this, but you may also want to start considering an ergonomic keyboard with a matrix layout, like the ergodox...
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 12:28:37 »
I'd say that to stop any further injury, don't push your typing speed so much.

you're gonna hate this, but you may also want to start considering an ergonomic keyboard with a matrix layout, like the ergodox...

Wouldn't it be more one or the other? I think that the problem might be because I push typing speed too quickly; I'm up to over 140 at maximum nine months after starting Dvorak, and taking it slower would probably be better for my hands, right?

I also am a high-schooler, without much mnoey; I doubt that I could afford the ErgoDox, perhaps the TECK at most. I'd consider the ErgoDox, just tp4's stupidity has turned me off of the idea.
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Current best: 162 wpm.

Offline Thimplum

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 12:36:11 »
taking it slower would probably be better for my hands, right?

Prolly. Also, I recommend making sure that your posture is good.

TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline kaltar

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 12:56:53 »
Ack, deleted my entire post. In summary, the advice is quite helpful, although I think that you overanalyze some parts. Diet really doesn't affect the strain on your muscles for sure. Adjusting balance should help a lot, so thank you; my parents know many people in herbal medicine so help shouldn't be too difficult to find, and I'll know where to find it if the brace doesn't help. Thanks for the advice!

Diet can help your muscles, that's a fact. BUT I would not trust voodoo and herbal medicine more than what a "real" doctor says

Offline blueSmoke

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 13:39:14 »
Ack, deleted my entire post. In summary, the advice is quite helpful, although I think that you overanalyze some parts. Diet really doesn't affect the strain on your muscles for sure. Adjusting balance should help a lot, so thank you; my parents know many people in herbal medicine so help shouldn't be too difficult to find, and I'll know where to find it if the brace doesn't help. Thanks for the advice!

Diet can help your muscles, that's a fact. BUT I would not trust voodoo and herbal medicine more than what a "real" doctor says

Ack, deleted my entire post. In summary, the advice is quite helpful, although I think that you overanalyze some parts. Diet really doesn't affect the strain on your muscles for sure. Adjusting balance should help a lot, so thank you; my parents know many people in herbal medicine so help shouldn't be too difficult to find, and I'll know where to find it if the brace doesn't help. Thanks for the advice!

Diet can help your muscles, that's a fact. BUT I would not trust voodoo and herbal medicine more than what a "real" doctor says

Diet can help muscles!!! Yeah take more proteins and those are supposedly help grow more stronger 'muscles'. Core muscles? interior muscles? May be, but fascia? Nah... Who wants to be a bodybuilder with a pea brain? A different diet is needed for the muscles we are talking about for a mentally active brain. Too much hype from the multi billion dollar protein industry.

Most of the guys who blindly assume that we have good diet/food available here are blind wrong. I have seen how our body starves for 'real' food. Check european food or non-radiated Asian food (may contain pesticides but no GM). They still have some nutrients remaining in their fruits and vegetables since they still support local farming and grow on real 'soil' containing real nutrients.

'BUT I would not trust voodoo and herbal medicine more than what a "real" doctor'.

I have seen enough 'real' doctors and having doctors in the family believe in the same half ass data about guinea pigged human body to the extent that I am concluding modern doctors are no less voodoo unless you get that rare one that has enough open mind to consider all types of medicines and admits his mistakes instead of throwing the sacred book of statistics at you.

Would I trust a car mechanic more than a company engineer that was part of the production if not the whole car? Duh. People cant trust a engineer with 4 year degree and some bleh experience, however they go rah rah for any doctor with 6-8 year degree and same bleh experience who would be operating on a live body without checking/verifying if the magic stick has any real potion in it. Ok. Welcome to the future. Trust but verify, but how? To each his own.

I am just explaining my stance.
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Offline hoggy

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 14:39:16 »
Don't mind tp4, he's just enthusiastic and means well.

I'd say that to stop any further injury, don't push your typing speed so much.

you're gonna hate this, but you may also want to start considering an ergonomic keyboard with a matrix layout, like the ergodox...

Wouldn't it be more one or the other? I think that the problem might be because I push typing speed too quickly; I'm up to over 140 at maximum nine months after starting Dvorak, and taking it slower would probably be better for my hands, right?

I also am a high-schooler, without much mnoey; I doubt that I could afford the ErgoDox, perhaps the TECK at most. I'd consider the ErgoDox, just tp4's stupidity has turned me off of the idea.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline davkol

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 15:09:11 »
Most of the guys who blindly assume that we have good diet/food available here are blind wrong. I have seen how our body starves for 'real' food. Check european food or non-radiated Asian food (may contain pesticides but no GM). They still have some nutrients remaining in their fruits and vegetables since they still support local farming and grow on real 'soil' containing real nutrients.

Would you be so kind and stop with the religious anti-GMO propaganda, please? Sure, 'murrican agriculture is in terrible shape (blame Monsanto and not only them); processed food is bad, 'mkay... However, there's nothing wrong with GMO, obviously except some ways to use it. It's the same issue as e.g. nuclear power, .

On-topic: Try to go with rhythm typing instead of breaking records. It's quite fun, and definitely not so fatiguing.

Offline mauri

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 17:19:37 »
Most of the guys who blindly assume that we have good diet/food available here are blind wrong. I have seen how our body starves for 'real' food. Check european food or non-radiated Asian food (may contain pesticides but no GM). They still have some nutrients remaining in their fruits and vegetables since they still support local farming and grow on real 'soil' containing real nutrients.

Would you be so kind and stop with the religious anti-GMO propaganda, please? Sure, 'murrican agriculture is in terrible shape (blame Monsanto and not only them); processed food is bad, 'mkay... However, there's nothing wrong with GMO, obviously except some ways to use it. It's the same issue as e.g. nuclear power, .

On-topic: Try to go with rhythm typing instead of breaking records. It's quite fun, and definitely not so fatiguing.

**** GMO, better let people starve. Opposing such things is pure idiocracy

Take your hipster ass back to the organic food department and ***** about additives in food.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 October 2013, 17:22:46 by mauri »
I AM BABAR KING OF THE ELEPHANTS

Offline blueSmoke

  • Posts: 103
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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 19:14:16 »
Most of the guys who blindly assume that we have good diet/food available here are blind wrong. I have seen how our body starves for 'real' food. Check european food or non-radiated Asian food (may contain pesticides but no GM). They still have some nutrients remaining in their fruits and vegetables since they still support local farming and grow on real 'soil' containing real nutrients.

Would you be so kind and stop with the religious anti-GMO propaganda, please? Sure, 'murrican agriculture is in terrible shape (blame Monsanto and not only them); processed food is bad, 'mkay... However, there's nothing wrong with GMO, obviously except some ways to use it. It's the same issue as e.g. nuclear power, .

On-topic: Try to go with rhythm typing instead of breaking records. It's quite fun, and definitely not so fatiguing.

Most of the guys who blindly assume that we have good diet/food available here are blind wrong. I have seen how our body starves for 'real' food. Check european food or non-radiated Asian food (may contain pesticides but no GM). They still have some nutrients remaining in their fruits and vegetables since they still support local farming and grow on real 'soil' containing real nutrients.

Would you be so kind and stop with the religious anti-GMO propaganda, please? Sure, 'murrican agriculture is in terrible shape (blame Monsanto and not only them); processed food is bad, 'mkay... However, there's nothing wrong with GMO, obviously except some ways to use it. It's the same issue as e.g. nuclear power, .

On-topic: Try to go with rhythm typing instead of breaking records. It's quite fun, and definitely not so fatiguing.

**** GMO, better let people starve. Opposing such things is pure idiocracy

Take your hipster ass back to the organic food department and ***** about additives in food.

Guys... Cool down.
OK. This topic is is on the OP. Not me/my views OR yours for that matter.

Before you read any further understand that there may be people raised in other countries and raised in completely different background/era/age/wisdom/stupidity/intelligence and their views may be wrong OR can some of those be right?

I know GMO is not bad, since it is marketed by 'Mericans and since the experts have been telling me, so IS high fructose corn syrup. I also know that half of worlds population would starve to death if there was no GMO. Actually pre GMO the people were starving and after that they are just dumping surplus food. I don't really understand why of all people, 'Mericans (native as well as naturalized) always obsess about starvation and food; was it a past history... great depression... hunger or the general greed that leads to this thinking. Well not my problem, what each want to do upto his own.

Hipster ass... Did you accidentally hit enter before thinking? I dont want to take offense but I see what few lines does to a man. Cant take some contrary opinion?

I dont mind the Internet racists & blind idealists, I knew they would come out. Would people have similar views if we replace GM foods with GM pets and they asked to keep/own/raise one? Dont worry, future event, preview trailer is available now. We will also include GM people and clones for free (in the pipeline).

This would be my LAST reply on this thread. Let people stay in ignorance. Anything different from mainstream is becoming a religious propaganda and hipster view. I would rather not waste my time.

Most people would rather die than think... - Bertrand Russell
Model M, Filco Tenkeyless White, Few others, few more others, Noise-hater (ongoing project), blah-blah (to be fillled later...)

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 19:57:27 »


I also am a high-schooler, without much mnoey; I doubt that I could afford the ErgoDox, perhaps the TECK at most. I'd consider the ErgoDox, just tp4's stupidity has turned me off of the idea.

You're still in high school and you're already having keyboard associated problems?   From what I'm reading, it seems to me that you are treating this as some sort of sport, ie faster is better.  What are your plans for the future?  If you are looking to work in an environment that relies on high-speed accurate keystroking, you are behind the 8-ball already.  I learned to type in 1967.  In 1980 I bought my first computer (Apple II) and started word-processing student theses and essays.  The Apple II came with a QWERTY keyboard and after about 5 years I started getting what today is recognised as the precursor symptoms of RSI, so I purchased my first Maltron dual hand 3D keyboard.  I then moved into the legal field and became a legal WPO, which involved high speed audio transcription.  Unfortunately, I was not able to employ the Maltron, due to the use of IBM computers.  In 1990 I trained as a court reporter, which required me to transcribe at the speed of speech, approximately 180 wpm, for hours on end.  Initially I had to use the company hardware and software, so again no Maltron.  However when they changed hardware I was able to use the Maltron, and purchasing a second keyboard meant I could leave one in the office and still have one at home. 

I think your "brute force" method of building typing speed is self-defeating.

In 1979 I started doing Pitman's pen shorthand, until I bought my computer and realised it was a pointless exercise writing something by hand then having to retype it.  I believed that it should be possible to have the computer expand abbreviated typing and started developing a useable "keyboard shorthand" which eventually gave the same results as stenotyping.  ie key in a couple of characters and the computer expanded the text in full.  Today I'm using a library of over 7,000 abbreviations and am able to transcribe at a speed which is limited purely by the quality of the recording.  I am now able to type faster than most speakers on some occasions, so I can turn the speed of the playback up by 5-10%. 

The point is that whilst my number of words appearing on-screen has continued to be in the 180-200 wpm area, my physical hand speed (keystroking) has gone down.  In other words, I'm using my brain instead of my brawn. 

This shorthand does not rely on the Maltron keyboard, as it will apply to any keyboard, QWERTY, Dvorak, Colemak or Malt.  But it is certainly much easier to use this with the Maltron as there is far less fatigue than with a QWERTY.  In other words, I can keep going faster for longer.

If you are interested in getting more words on-screen in a shorter time than moving your fingers quickly, my blog gives a very detailed set of instructions on creating and using this function.

http://proword-transcription.blogspot.com.au/

The other benefit of using the shorthand is the increase in typing accuracy, since, unless you key in the wrong abbreviation, you will always get the correct spelling etc.  In the court reporting industry, in Australia at any rate, there is a contractual obligation to produce text which has no more than 2 errors per page ie 99.9995% accurate.  There's no point being quick if you are inaccurate.

Joe
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 October 2013, 21:29:08 by Proword »
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Linkbane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1534
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 04 October 2013, 22:09:27 »
It is all sport to me. It's a skill to build, and one that interests me enough that I'd get a keyboard that allowed me to type fastest without using assisting technology.
I don't believe that my method is self-defeating at all, and it's rather wrong to call it 'brute-force' when every sport or exercise in the world uses it, which would be practicing more.
I get better because I practice, and would find it difficult to believe that anyone else learned to type over 140 wpm in under nine months.
Stenography is not for me. It's not about the speed of transcription, it's a practice for my mind. My mind becomes sharper and able to process words more quickly which my fingers can translate into keystrokes, which is again hardly brute force.
Quickfire TK MX Blue Corsair K60 MX Red Ducky Shine 3 Yellow TKL MX Blue Leopold FC660C
Current best: 162 wpm.

Offline mauri

  • Posts: 456
Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 05 October 2013, 06:06:16 »
Most of the guys who blindly assume that we have good diet/food available here are blind wrong. I have seen how our body starves for 'real' food. Check european food or non-radiated Asian food (may contain pesticides but no GM). They still have some nutrients remaining in their fruits and vegetables since they still support local farming and grow on real 'soil' containing real nutrients.

Would you be so kind and stop with the religious anti-GMO propaganda, please? Sure, 'murrican agriculture is in terrible shape (blame Monsanto and not only them); processed food is bad, 'mkay... However, there's nothing wrong with GMO, obviously except some ways to use it. It's the same issue as e.g. nuclear power, .

On-topic: Try to go with rhythm typing instead of breaking records. It's quite fun, and definitely not so fatiguing.

Most of the guys who blindly assume that we have good diet/food available here are blind wrong. I have seen how our body starves for 'real' food. Check european food or non-radiated Asian food (may contain pesticides but no GM). They still have some nutrients remaining in their fruits and vegetables since they still support local farming and grow on real 'soil' containing real nutrients.

Would you be so kind and stop with the religious anti-GMO propaganda, please? Sure, 'murrican agriculture is in terrible shape (blame Monsanto and not only them); processed food is bad, 'mkay... However, there's nothing wrong with GMO, obviously except some ways to use it. It's the same issue as e.g. nuclear power, .

On-topic: Try to go with rhythm typing instead of breaking records. It's quite fun, and definitely not so fatiguing.

**** GMO, better let people starve. Opposing such things is pure idiocracy

Take your hipster ass back to the organic food department and ***** about additives in food.

Guys... Cool down.
OK. This topic is is on the OP. Not me/my views OR yours for that matter.

Before you read any further understand that there may be people raised in other countries and raised in completely different background/era/age/wisdom/stupidity/intelligence and their views may be wrong OR can some of those be right?

I know GMO is not bad, since it is marketed by 'Mericans and since the experts have been telling me, so IS high fructose corn syrup. I also know that half of worlds population would starve to death if there was no GMO. Actually pre GMO the people were starving and after that they are just dumping surplus food. I don't really understand why of all people, 'Mericans (native as well as naturalized) always obsess about starvation and food; was it a past history... great depression... hunger or the general greed that leads to this thinking. Well not my problem, what each want to do upto his own.

Hipster ass... Did you accidentally hit enter before thinking? I dont want to take offense but I see what few lines does to a man. Cant take some contrary opinion?

I dont mind the Internet racists & blind idealists, I knew they would come out. Would people have similar views if we replace GM foods with GM pets and they asked to keep/own/raise one? Dont worry, future event, preview trailer is available now. We will also include GM people and clones for free (in the pipeline).

This would be my LAST reply on this thread. Let people stay in ignorance. Anything different from mainstream is becoming a religious propaganda and hipster view. I would rather not waste my time.

Most people would rather die than think... - Bertrand Russell

I don't think you're thinking this thru on a global scale and just because your supermarket is fully stocked doesn't mean rest of the worlds is. Different views become propaganda when the cons outweigh the pros. You wouldn't stab yourself in the face would you?
I AM BABAR KING OF THE ELEPHANTS

Offline Burz

  • Posts: 248
  • maybe get a blister on yo' little finger...
Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 05 October 2013, 11:18:25 »
I don't think you're thinking this thru on a global scale and just because your supermarket is fully stocked doesn't mean rest of the worlds is. Different views become propaganda when the cons outweigh the pros. You wouldn't stab yourself in the face would you?
Are you insinuating that he's preventing other people from eating because he's trying to eat healthy?
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.

Offline hoggy

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 05 October 2013, 11:20:39 »
This is the nice way of saying it -

I think Proword had a good point.  I know you are justifiably proud of your wpm - it's far higher than mine, he was trying to lead you in another direction that would enable you to keep up the same rate of _input_ without crippling yourself.  Please don't feel affronted, but I think you should take a moment and think it through.

I've gone through that transition myself.  To be fair, it wasn't easy, but the alternative was to give up my programming career (which I love) and just flit between jobs when I'm able to work, for less money, and for jobs that wouldn't be as interesting.


This is the harsh way of saying it -

In a few years, when you can't type on a computer without wincing in pain, what will your current wpm be worth to you?

Surgery may help, but if you go straight back to doing exactly what caused this without changing anything, it isn't going to take you long to be back in this position.


It might not sound like it, but I'm trying to help.


  You don't have to listen. 
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline mauri

  • Posts: 456
Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 05 October 2013, 13:32:04 »
I don't think you're thinking this thru on a global scale and just because your supermarket is fully stocked doesn't mean rest of the worlds is. Different views become propaganda when the cons outweigh the pros. You wouldn't stab yourself in the face would you?
Are you insinuating that he's preventing other people from eating because he's trying to eat healthy?

I'm insinuating that he's got a problem with poor people having something to eat
I AM BABAR KING OF THE ELEPHANTS

Offline Thimplum

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1101
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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 05 October 2013, 14:38:34 »
I love GMOs. It's cool.
TP4 FOR ADMIN 2013

Offline Linkbane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1534
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 05 October 2013, 17:03:19 »
This is the nice way of saying it -

I think Proword had a good point.  I know you are justifiably proud of your wpm - it's far higher than mine, he was trying to lead you in another direction that would enable you to keep up the same rate of _input_ without crippling yourself.  Please don't feel affronted, but I think you should take a moment and think it through.

I've gone through that transition myself.  To be fair, it wasn't easy, but the alternative was to give up my programming career (which I love) and just flit between jobs when I'm able to work, for less money, and for jobs that wouldn't be as interesting.


This is the harsh way of saying it -

In a few years, when you can't type on a computer without wincing in pain, what will your current wpm be worth to you?

Surgery may help, but if you go straight back to doing exactly what caused this without changing anything, it isn't going to take you long to be back in this position.


It might not sound like it, but I'm trying to help.


  You don't have to listen.

Sure, and I understand. I'm just saying that I'd rather practice with as correct posture/positioning/etc. that won't reduce my typing speed. I see what you mean, but I'm just saying that stenography is not for me. I'm not trying to input text quickly, that's not the most important, I'm trying to be good at an exercise for my brain and fingers. If that means practicing less intensively or using an ergonomic keyboard or wearing a brace, I'm willing to do the maximum that my muscles will take without being detrimental to my sport ability.

Nice or not, I know what you mean. And I know that it's possible to achieve words per minute miles higher than mine by using stenography, but it's not the same as speed typing, which itself is an activity that I enjoy in and of itself. Thanks for the advice, Hoggy.
Quickfire TK MX Blue Corsair K60 MX Red Ducky Shine 3 Yellow TKL MX Blue Leopold FC660C
Current best: 162 wpm.

Offline Burz

  • Posts: 248
  • maybe get a blister on yo' little finger...
Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 29 October 2013, 11:07:45 »
I don't think you're thinking this thru on a global scale and just because your supermarket is fully stocked doesn't mean rest of the worlds is. Different views become propaganda when the cons outweigh the pros. You wouldn't stab yourself in the face would you?
Are you insinuating that he's preventing other people from eating because he's trying to eat healthy?

I'm insinuating that he's got a problem with poor people having something to eat

No, he doesn't. There is still more than enough food produced around the world to feed everyone on the planet.

The reasons some people go without are: a) the people don't have enough money to make distribution to them profitable; b) loss of arable land to soil erosion, of which conventional agriculture has been a major contributor; c) people are eating larger and larger portions of meat, which can use far more than 10X the land resources of vegetable produce; d) Americans throw away much of the food that we buy, IIRC about 40%, and there are probably other developed countries that are careless with their food.

If I were you and felt the need to shame people directly, I would concentrate on the actual wastrels, gluttons and financiers who contribute the most to the above factors of food insecurity. It would also help to have some facts.

OTOH, I haven't come across an ecological study that pointed a finger at organic agriculture. The latter is primarily concerned with keeping the soil healthy while it is producing, which is probably about as close to conservation as agriculture can get; The whole idea is that it needs to be sustainable for both the land and the people.
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.

Offline SamirD

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 09 November 2013, 06:39:43 »
If you're still in high school and are starting to have problems with RSI, you need to think about the future.

Back in the 1980s my brother and I would joke that we'll have carpel tunnel because of all the hours we logged playing video games on the Commodore 64.  We had over 15 different joysticks and would regularly wear them out.  We laughed then, but not a few years later when it started to become true.

My brother had carpel tunnel release surgery in 11th grade of high school.  He needed surgery on his other hand by the second year of college.  I found out that typing on IBM Ms kept my hands from hurting and switched to just the M.  I've never had to have surgery (knock on wood), but I have injured my hand to the point I couldn't type at all for 2 weeks.

The lesson?  I know you enjoy your sport and are very good at it (140+ is awesome), but think of the consequences.  Don't be the future NFL player that blows out his knee in high school.

That being said, ergonomics are important, but so is resting and understanding your body's limits.  You have to become hyper-sensitive to what's going on in your hand, so you can stop any damage before it becomes a permanent problem.

And once you discover some of the things that cause pain, you'll be able to use the mind you've sharpened to find permanent solutions and workarounds that work for you.

I'm still typing on my IBM M, and at about the same speed I did in high school. :)

Offline Linkbane

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1534
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 09 November 2013, 18:09:01 »
If you're still in high school and are starting to have problems with RSI, you need to think about the future.

Back in the 1980s my brother and I would joke that we'll have carpel tunnel because of all the hours we logged playing video games on the Commodore 64.  We had over 15 different joysticks and would regularly wear them out.  We laughed then, but not a few years later when it started to become true.

My brother had carpel tunnel release surgery in 11th grade of high school.  He needed surgery on his other hand by the second year of college.  I found out that typing on IBM Ms kept my hands from hurting and switched to just the M.  I've never had to have surgery (knock on wood), but I have injured my hand to the point I couldn't type at all for 2 weeks.

The lesson?  I know you enjoy your sport and are very good at it (140+ is awesome), but think of the consequences.  Don't be the future NFL player that blows out his knee in high school.

That being said, ergonomics are important, but so is resting and understanding your body's limits.  You have to become hyper-sensitive to what's going on in your hand, so you can stop any damage before it becomes a permanent problem.

And once you discover some of the things that cause pain, you'll be able to use the mind you've sharpened to find permanent solutions and workarounds that work for you.

I'm still typing on my IBM M, and at about the same speed I did in high school. :)

Thanks for the advice. Recently I've been changing up my typing, practicing less than 20-30 minutes a day, so that I don't hurt my fingers too much, especially considering that fencing strains them a lot. Now I'm typing quickly when I'm well rested. If I take a break from fencing I can type more, or vice-versa.
Quickfire TK MX Blue Corsair K60 MX Red Ducky Shine 3 Yellow TKL MX Blue Leopold FC660C
Current best: 162 wpm.

Offline SamirD

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 14:06:37 »
Thanks for the advice. Recently I've been changing up my typing, practicing less than 20-30 minutes a day, so that I don't hurt my fingers too much, especially considering that fencing strains them a lot. Now I'm typing quickly when I'm well rested. If I take a break from fencing I can type more, or vice-versa.
I'm glad to hear it. :)  If you keep it up, you can be that 60-year old guy that kicks all the kids asses at future worldwide typing contests. ;)


Offline Linkbane

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Re: Is it RSI?
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 15:24:38 »
Thanks for the advice. Recently I've been changing up my typing, practicing less than 20-30 minutes a day, so that I don't hurt my fingers too much, especially considering that fencing strains them a lot. Now I'm typing quickly when I'm well rested. If I take a break from fencing I can type more, or vice-versa.
I'm glad to hear it. :)  If you keep it up, you can be that 60-year old guy that kicks all the kids asses at future worldwide typing contests. ;)
:D Hopefully they'll still be around in over forty years.
Quickfire TK MX Blue Corsair K60 MX Red Ducky Shine 3 Yellow TKL MX Blue Leopold FC660C
Current best: 162 wpm.