Author Topic: Micro USB is stupid (Read 5700 times)

whyarentfilcobacklit · « **on:** Sat, 29 September 2018, 11:21:38 »

Mini USB is much more robust for a keyboard cable connector. I prefer either hardware the cable or use a mini USB plug. I don't understand the logic of using micro USB.

Techno Trousers · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat, 29 September 2018, 11:25:53 »

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/18552/why-was-mini-usb-deprecated-in-favor-of-micro-usb#18559

I'm hoping that USB type C eventually takes over, but it's going to be a long time.

fohat.digs · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat, 29 September 2018, 11:52:11 »

Yesterday a co-worker brought in a rechargeable AA battery with a micro-USB socket built into it for charging.

I thought that was pretty cool.

Findecanor · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat, 29 September 2018, 13:22:01 »

One change from mini-USB to micro-USB was that the locking lugs moved from the socket to the plug. Supposedly, those had been the most vulnerable part of the connection and the idea was that when there is a failure in the connector, it should be in the cheaper replaceable cable than on the more expensive device-side.

However ... in pursuit of thinness, many (but not all) micro-USB sockets have only surface-mounting — without reinforcing through-hole soldering which all mini-USB sockets had, which means that many the connections to the PCB break more often than on mini-USB. This has tarnished micro-USB's reputation.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat, 29 September 2018, 13:39:00 »

Apple lightning port = Best port. !!

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat, 29 September 2018, 14:04:16 »

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 29 September 2018, 13:39:00

Apple lightning port = Best port. !!

Is that the connector with apparently no metal in the tab so it snaps off and is a PITA to remove from the socket? I thought micro USB was weak until I saw one of them

)

Leslieann · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat, 29 September 2018, 20:51:34 »

Quote from: whyarentfilcobacklit on Sat, 29 September 2018, 11:21:38

Mini USB is much more robust for a keyboard cable connector. I prefer either hardware the cable or use a mini USB plug. I don't understand the logic of using micro USB.

Depends on what you measure.
The cables on micros bend easier, but the socket itself is actually more durable than mini and provides a better and more secure connection.

I'd rather trash a cable than the socket.

Olumin · « **Reply #7 on:** Mon, 01 October 2018, 09:22:23 »

That all wouldn't be a probablem if keyboard manufacturers would finally put detachable, clip-in connectors back onto keyboard cases and cables again. Like on a Model M connector.

ander · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed, 03 October 2018, 03:16:38 »

Quote from: Olumin on Mon, 01 October 2018, 09:22:23

That all wouldn't be a probablem if keyboard manufacturers would finally put detachable, clip-in connectors back onto keyboard cases and cables again. Like on a Model M connector.

JianYang · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 03 October 2018, 04:07:55 »

Quote from: Leslieann on Sat, 29 September 2018, 20:51:34

Quote from: whyarentfilcobacklit on Sat, 29 September 2018, 11:21:38
Mini USB is much more robust for a keyboard cable connector. I prefer either hardware the cable or use a mini USB plug. I don't understand the logic of using micro USB.
Depends on what you measure.
The cables on micros bend easier, but the socket itself is actually more durable than mini and provides a better and more secure connection.

I'd rather trash a cable than the socket.

Well, you get all sorts of cables attached to micros. But yes, the mini has a serious design flaw, and subsequently a much lower insertion/cycle count. Most of the issues with micros is the device manufacturer not affixing the connector to the board adequately - leading to the socket breaking off the board completely. That is not due to a poor connector design, it is simply a poor implementation.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 03 October 2018, 07:26:25 »

Quote from: JianYang on Wed, 03 October 2018, 04:07:55

Quote from: Leslieann on Sat, 29 September 2018, 20:51:34
Quote from: whyarentfilcobacklit on Sat, 29 September 2018, 11:21:38
Mini USB is much more robust for a keyboard cable connector. I prefer either hardware the cable or use a mini USB plug. I don't understand the logic of using micro USB.
Depends on what you measure.
The cables on micros bend easier, but the socket itself is actually more durable than mini and provides a better and more secure connection.

I'd rather trash a cable than the socket.

Well, you get all sorts of cables attached to micros. But yes, the mini has a serious design flaw, and subsequently a much lower insertion/cycle count. Most of the issues with minis is the device manufacturer not affixing the connector to the board adequately - leading to the socket breaking off the board completely. That is not due to a poor connector design, it is simply a poor implementation.

This happens just as often with ALL ports..

IMHO, none of these implementations are good. There should always be more anchors.. AND the solder points should be wider.. kind of like rollercoaster specifications where they just multiply by 25

Manufacturers are clearly doing this on purpose as part of planned obsolescence

Leslieann · « **Reply #11 on:** Wed, 03 October 2018, 23:49:24 »

Quote from: JianYang on Wed, 03 October 2018, 04:07:55

Well, you get all sorts of cables attached to micros. But yes, the mini has a serious design flaw, and subsequently a much lower insertion/cycle count. Most of the issues with micros is the device manufacturer not affixing the connector to the board adequately - leading to the socket breaking off the board completely. That is not due to a poor connector design, it is simply a poor implementation.

Micro actually got a redesign after the Galaxy S4 problems, making them a bit more durable in regards to the board.

Work on a few laptops though and like Tp says, you will find that every port has this problem. This is exactly why corporate laptops have a breakout board with wires, so there is some give in the system.

JianYang · « **Reply #12 on:** Thu, 04 October 2018, 01:21:26 »

Quote from: Leslieann on Wed, 03 October 2018, 23:49:24

Micro actually got a redesign after the Galaxy S4 problems, making them a bit more durable in regards to the board.

Work on a few laptops though and like Tp says, you will find that every port has this problem. This is exactly why corporate laptops have a breakout board with wires, so there is some give in the system.

Did it get a redesign? I still see plenty of poor designs and a few good ones on component supplier sites. The better ones will have through-hole anchors, so not so good for mass production.

I am also not aware of the Galaxy S4 problems, I had one for ~4years without an issue.

Leslieann · « **Reply #13 on:** Thu, 04 October 2018, 04:28:13 »

Quote from: JianYang on Thu, 04 October 2018, 01:21:26

Did it get a redesign? I still see plenty of poor designs and a few good ones on component supplier sites. The better ones will have through-hole anchors, so not so good for mass production.

I am also not aware of the Galaxy S4 problems, I had one for ~4years without an issue.

Pretty sure it was the S4 (may have been the 3), the port would stop charging. Others had the issue as well so they beefed it up to handle more insertions and not deflect as much, near as I can tell it's pretty much just a strap that goes over the top to hold it down. It was actually designed along side the S3 based on the dates of the one thing I saw about it, but Samsiung only put on Samsungs after the 4(? I'd have to open my S5 to check) had issues. It's not something the press really got excited over.

S4's have a few other issues, the biggest being the Sdcard and GSM card slots failing on earlier models in particular. The sdcard will just suddenly decide it was removed, same for the gsm card. I have one starting to do this now, a reboot corrects it temporarily, but once it starts it only gets worse as time goes on. At least with the USB you could swap the lower pcb without a problem, the cards require a new slot or mainboard. Like the S3 and S5, the S4 is also super fickle about firmware and the memory being tampered with and will brick if you breath on it wrong. At least the screen stays attached, something the 5 has problems with.

S4 was actually a really good phone other than those problems and their collaboration with carriers to lock it down like they did. After 4 Galaxies, all having issues of some sort, I'm pretty done with them for the time being, especially now that the rest of the industry has pretty much caught up on screen to body ratio.

jcoffin1981 · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun, 07 October 2018, 04:33:14 »

What about using an extension? I've seen them come with cell phone cases. It's about 1.5 in. and the outer connection takes most of the stress of a tug. Come to think of it it may have been the headphone jack, but the concept is the same. I'm sure these exist.

Problem with micro or usb-C is that I don't have any. Should it be damaged I have to buy a new one. I have 15 mini cables.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun, 07 October 2018, 07:39:43 »

Quote from: jcoffin1981 on Sun, 07 October 2018, 04:33:14

What about using an extension? I've seen them come with cell phone cases. It's about 1.5 in. and the outer connection takes most of the stress of a tug. Come to think of it it may have been the headphone jack, but the concept is the same. I'm sure these exist.

Problem with micro or usb-C is that I don't have any. Should it be damaged I have to buy a new one. I have 15 mini cables.

Use the little magnetic port savers.. they're pretty good, but you'll have to carry around an extra microusb to magnet adapter, it's the size of a coin.

Audiobs · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun, 07 October 2018, 23:50:43 »

I have to agree that there is no reason to use micro on a keyboard. I don't even understand why we use mini... I have been wondering why we can't just have USB-A female, they are already on many keyboards that have USB outputs, and of course still on most computer MBs. It's not like our keyboards are too thin to accommodate it. HHKB has a mini input but 2x USB-A female outputs, they is plenty of room. So this is about the poplularity of the connection type and cables?

Aren't both Mini and Micro designed for mobile devices such as cell phones, cameras, and other portable computer peripherals? Micro, being just the newer/smaller version of Mini so that it can be fitted onto even newer/smaller devices. I am trying to think if they are being used on devices bigger than MKs... even the large ext. hard drives use USB-A or B, and they are all smaller...

There is no debate on their physical weakness, can't expect much from dot size soldering points and tiny wires. The 'locks' on the plugs are there to ensure correct connection, not to protect against blunt force. If one needs to drag a keyboard by the cable, most hardwired ones are quite strong to handle that. Otherwise, for argument sake, my tonearm wires will work fine if we were computers using computers. Well, I guess I could add a braided shield and a ferrite.

Leslieann · « **Reply #17 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 02:58:54 »

While USB-A lasts a long time, I've had USB 3.0 type-A connectors have issues with engaging the second set of pins. The connectors can also stretch out and let them wiggle too much. I have one that crossed pins as a result. I also had one that the fingers inside got smashed into the back of the connector, and if you think that's bad, it gets worse, it happened on a Macbook.

Those magsafe style ones that TP mentioned though, are awesome. I just wish they had built them into the port. Then again, i also wish Type C was truly a standard*, but we can't have everything.

*Not THE standard, though that too. No, I mean, not every type C port is equal. Some have higher amperage, some are thunderbolt, some are crippled, some are high speed... It's kind of a joke, just because the cable fits it means very little.

invariance · « **Reply #18 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 03:36:44 »

Bring back SDL connectors!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tp4tissue · « **Reply #19 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 10:15:38 »

All keyboards should have Direct-Solder-On cables.. No Scrubb gear thxxx. !!

Custom Detachable Cables ??, -- More like custom Detachable Point-Of-Failure..

!!-- Soldered Master Race --!!

Blue_Moon · « **Reply #20 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 10:51:28 »

my poor hhkb -.-

suicidal_orange · « **Reply #21 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 10:55:17 »

Quote from: Blue_Moon on Mon, 08 October 2018, 10:51:28

my poor hhkb -.-

What did you do to it?

HHKBs come with a mini socket and if that fails it's on a replacable controller board - it doesn't get much better!

Blue_Moon · « **Reply #22 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 11:34:32 »

oh, i didn't do anything to it, but i notice it has a mini usb socket, which this thread is saying was replaced with micro usb because mini usb fails. and i read another user wore out the port because he had just one hhkb that he took from work to home all the time

but it's good to know that it's replaceable!

i should clarify because the title says that *micro* usb is stupid. the linked article from electronics.stackexchange says that *mini* usb is the one with the short lifespan.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #23 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 12:49:45 »

Quote from: Blue_Moon on Mon, 08 October 2018, 11:34:32

oh, i didn't do anything to it, but i notice it has a mini usb socket, which this thread is saying was replaced with micro usb because mini usb fails. and i read another user wore out the port because he had just one hhkb that he took from work to home all the time

but it's good to know that it's replaceable!

i should clarify because the title says that *micro* usb is stupid. the linked article from electronics.stackexchange says that *mini* usb is the one with the short lifespan.

Don't worry, they're both bad. !

malu1989 · « **Reply #24 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 15:03:32 »

I would like to see some micro USB sockets that are easier to solder than most of those out there. It is always a hassle to solder them correctly by hand. USB-C is even worse.

Findecanor · « **Reply #25 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 15:09:06 »

There are "breakout boards" for micro-USB and USB-C sockets

... although not all USB-C breakout boards have through-hole connections, to safe on size, so they are still fiddly.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #26 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 15:41:51 »

Quote from: Findecanor on Mon, 08 October 2018, 15:09:06

There are "breakout boards" for micro-USB and USB-C sockets

... although not all USB-C breakout boards have through-hole connections, to safe on size, so they are still fiddly.

Or, we just tie a knot in the cord, solder direct.. Booom... Sturdy. !! The ports fails way too often.. you look at them wrong, and they crack.. gdi.. h88888..

Another problem is the rigidity of the metal used.. often to cut cost, they use a softer or thinner metal so they can extend the life of their crimp tools..

So now, the port casing flexes and does not fully transfer the abrupt forces to the pcb anchor points, The force is directed to the data pins, and crack..

malu1989 · « **Reply #27 on:** Mon, 08 October 2018, 15:45:43 »

I might add through holes for a cable to my next keyboard

rorix · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 10 October 2018, 04:58:26 »

That's my least favourite part of my frst mech, a Ducky One. Its MicroUSB port is recessed into the case and the cable gutters are too narrow for anything wider than phone charger cables, which srent anywhere near strong enough. I think I must've destroyed at least 3 cables before I retired it in search of better pastures.

Findecanor · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 10 October 2018, 05:15:23 »

Quote from: tp4tissue on Mon, 08 October 2018, 10:15:38

All keyboards should have Direct-Solder-On cables.. No Scrubb gear thxxx. !!

Custom Detachable Cables ??, -- More like custom Detachable Point-Of-Failure..

Soldering is not enough. The cable needs strain-relief with a tight-fitting cable boot rubber grommet thingamabob (whatever it is called) that attaches to the case or to go through tight bends inside the case.
Otherwise, the soldering points will be damaged when the cable is yanked — which it will be.
A grommet will need to fit both the thickness of the cable and the hole it is attached to.
The case needs to be designed to fit the strain-relief system between two parts, which restricts the way you can design the case and requires space inside the case.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 10 October 2018, 10:18:23 »

Quote from: Findecanor on Wed, 10 October 2018, 05:15:23

Quote from: tp4tissue on Mon, 08 October 2018, 10:15:38
All keyboards should have Direct-Solder-On cables.. No Scrubb gear thxxx. !!

Custom Detachable Cables ??, -- More like custom Detachable Point-Of-Failure..

Soldering is not enough. The cable needs strain-relief with a tight-fitting cable boot rubber grommet thingamabob (whatever it is called) that attaches to the case or to go through tight bends inside the case.
Otherwise, the soldering points will be damaged when the cable is yanked — which it will be.
A grommet will need to fit both the thickness of the cable and the hole it is attached to.
The case needs to be designed to fit the strain-relief system between two parts, which restricts the way you can design the case and requires space inside the case.

That's easy.. Just Pot the port in epoxy !!

typo · « **Reply #31 on:** Thu, 11 October 2018, 04:53:44 »

It is very prone to breakage. However keyboard is not used much. On things like Ecigs and older phones it is their downfall. I too would much rather see USB C. Although on a full size mech board USB B is the most robust and seldom ever fails. If not pulled by the cord. I have reused cords on hundreds of printers. If USB B you can get good ones like Belkin gold. All my boards are hardwired or connected inside case. That is honestly best. Why does one need a removeable cable? If custom just spec cable you want.

ander · « **Reply #32 on:** Thu, 11 October 2018, 06:07:28 »

I keep seeing this topic and wanting to contribute some thoughts, but when I try, my mind goes blank. I just can't muster the kind of passion and outrage I see here for a particular type of USB connector. Whatever I'd post would seem bland by comparison. On the plus side, at least it wouldn't be some juvenile macro text with a link to nowhere.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #33 on:** Thu, 11 October 2018, 07:15:14 »

Quote from: ander on Thu, 11 October 2018, 06:07:28

I keep seeing this topic and wanting to contribute some thoughts, but when I try, my mind goes blank. I just can't muster the kind of passion and outrage I see here for a particular type of USB connector. Whatever I'd post would seem bland by comparison. On the plus side, at least it wouldn't be some juvenile macro text with a link to nowhere.

Feel free to unload ander, gekha is here for you in your time of deep grief.

Tom_Kazansky · « **Reply #34 on:** Sat, 13 October 2018, 21:33:07 »

I got... traumatized by the micro-usb connector on the Arduino ProMicro, after like... several plug/unplug, the connector came off...

so, for me, mini-usb seems more durable, and:

I will use the ProMicro like this for a while, until I can use Type-C

phorx · « **Reply #35 on:** Sun, 14 October 2018, 10:02:39 »

I’ve started using magnetically detachable adapters to preserve the port on one of my boards, but that’s not always an option. Plus the aesthetics aren’t the best.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #36 on:** Sun, 14 October 2018, 10:04:26 »

Quote from: phorx on Sun, 14 October 2018, 10:02:39

I’ve started using magnetically detachable adapters to preserve the port on one of my boards, but that’s not always an option. Plus the aesthetics aren’t the best.

The one downside I've found to magnetic coupler, is that the flat contact plating will always degrade over time due to the small contact area, there's always arching causing the oxidation to form..

Still, better than a destroyed loose port.

Pavilions · « **Reply #37 on:** Sun, 14 October 2018, 15:51:43 »

Quote from: whyarentfilcobacklit on Sat, 29 September 2018, 11:21:38

Mini USB is much more robust for a keyboard cable connector. I prefer either hardware the cable or use a mini USB plug. I don't understand the logic of using micro USB.

I agree it's stupid and it started when stupid Android devices started to adopt it on their phones, Now it's everywhere.

RETURNISO · « **Reply #38 on:** Sun, 14 October 2018, 16:22:43 »

I just got a MX MASTER S2, and its got micro USB.....whyyy

ThoughtArtist · « **Reply #39 on:** Sun, 14 October 2018, 23:49:46 »

Not more stupid than USB-C audio and the useful-idiots for the Bluetooth consortium who think perfected technology like the 3.5 mm audio jack is "old fashioned".

Leslieann · « **Reply #40 on:** Mon, 15 October 2018, 02:14:58 »

Quote from: RETURNISO on Sun, 14 October 2018, 16:22:43

I just got a MX MASTER S2, and its got micro USB.....whyyy

Because they were not going to retool for a minor update.

JianYang · « **Reply #41 on:** Mon, 15 October 2018, 03:24:04 »

Quote from: Tom_Kazansky on Sat, 13 October 2018, 21:33:07

I got... traumatized by the micro-usb connector on the Arduino ProMicro, after like... several plug/unplug, the connector came off...

so, for me, mini-usb seems more durable, and:
(Attachment Link)
I will use the ProMicro like this for a while, until I can use Type-C

Pro-micro definitely did not do the mounting of that connector correctly. Mini-usb would have fared no better unless it was through-hole. It is simply poor PCB design.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #42 on:** Mon, 15 October 2018, 08:47:02 »

Quote from: RETURNISO on Sun, 14 October 2018, 16:22:43

I just got a MX MASTER S2, and its got micro USB.....whyyy

Planned Obsolescence

If everyone was still using their G400 or MX518, Logitech would've been out of business long ago.


120/100g linear Zealio R1 GMK Hyperfuse 'Split everything' perfection	MX Clear SA Hack'd by Geeks EasyAVR mod

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Author Topic: Micro USB is stupid (Read 5700 times)