How stupid is this layout?

[cribbit]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/699b49bcd0f360942affa3881ba06cdc

I had actually never heard of the KBT Race until after I showed this to someone, I had seen the F660 line, Poker/other 60%, TKL and fullsize. I wanted something that would fit into a 60% case for portability (work, home, classes) while having more functionality than a poker II.

I found that I only ever use my right thumb to hit the spacebar, I'm accurate enough to only need 1x1 for many keys, and I only ever use my left shift key. The M/Z keys are for macros. I'm still doing the research to actually build this, probably a long, long project. Seems the PCB will be tricky, but I've been meaning to learn how to write drivers for a while. Hoping to make it heavily programmable, moreso than a poker II. Hardest part will likely be wiring everything in a way that lets me do the programming on it I want to.

[tp4tissue]

what's different about it.?

[Qantourisc]

No expert on the layout, but could work. I'm just not sure how you are going to use all those extra keys (in terms of getting to work with your operating system ).
Regarding the PCB, you don't NEED a PCB, since it's a fairly regular grid, it's quite easy to hook them up using loose wires. You will still need a backplate to put the switches in though.

[EpicSNES]

I love the layout, but I'm not a fan of the small backspace key.

[Enigma]

I don't think you'd struggle with the small backspace key. The keyboard I'm using has one and it took my about a day to get used to it's location.

The only thing that I might struggle with is the small spacebar. But I'm sure it'll just take some getting used to.

What are you going to use the extra keys for?

[cribbit]

No expert on the layout, but could work. I'm just not sure how you are going to use all those extra keys (in terms of getting to work with your operating system ).
Regarding the PCB, you don't NEED a PCB, since it's a fairly regular grid, it's quite easy to hook them up using loose wires. You will still need a backplate to put the switches in though.

Won't a PCB look prettier and be easier to work with (especially since I'll have a fairly complex controller for programmability) than just wiring? I have access to machinery to create my own plate, which I will definitely be doing. I can also make my own case, but I'm undecided on material yet.

The extra keys are basically moving F1-9 from above the numpad to where the M/Z keys are now. Except, they'd also be programmable w/ profiles. This would let me have them be chat macros while gaming, as functions while programming, or even a copy/paste where I can save multiple things at once. I'm also looking at being able to do AHK-style commands straight from my keyboard, though the obvious hard part of that is getting a driver to work with that.

[Oobly]

It's not stupid at all, in fact I really like it. IMHO, the only issue I would have with it is the offset number row, but I think I'd be able to get used to that.

If you have a plate, you don't need a PCB. You can use a Teensy 2.0 as a controller and wire up the columns and rows by hand with diodes no problem. The key functions can all be done in the firmware on the Teensy, no wiring changes are needed once you have the basic grid wired up.

I'd put Esc on the top left key, backtick/tilde on Z1 with Home and End on Z2 and Z3 or possibly use Z3 as a Fn key like the HHKB.

[sakai4eva]

I suppose you can look at the leopold for inspiration. OR the HHKB. I like your idea of a 60%er with all the frills, but maybe you can replace the interrobang with an escape key instead?

Personally I tap the spacebar with my left hand more, but that's just me.

[cribbit]

If you have a plate, you don't need a PCB. You can use a Teensy 2.0 as a controller and wire up the columns and rows by hand with diodes no problem. The key functions can all be done in the firmware on the Teensy, no wiring changes are needed once you have the basic grid wired up.

Definitely going to be making a plate for this.

How powerful is a teensy? I was looking at the teensy a couple of weeks ago for another project, but the limitations on it are annoying. Then again, I'm not totally sure how this whole column thing works with keyboards, as I'm pure computer science, no electrical engineering background. Also, since I'm taking the effort to build a custom keyboard, I was hoping to add a bunch of features - USB hub, RGB LEDs, internal storage, SD card slot, possibly even mic and low power speaker or at least a sound chip for audio feedback. My hardware goal is to get to a spot that I can basically have an array of booleans (pressed/not pressed) representing all 72 keys which the firmware would be checking 500-1000 times per second. I could then write all the software around that to do the features I want, converting this array into what keys to send to the OS. (also, I'm checking info on writing self-installing drivers so that I could do some heavier AHK style stuff, but I need that key reading first) 

I'm looking at other projects (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=6292.0) from more knowledgeable people. I'm also looking at somewhat unrelated projects (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19458.0), that sort of "intercept" reprogramming dongle was the idea that originally lead me to the teensy.

It's rather annoying how difficult all this hardware side stuff can be. All of my usual work is with pure software, which is so much easier to make malleable. All my past similar projects (namely FIRST and other robotics competitions) I would only have to worry about how to program the inputs, never how to get them.

To be clear, the entire keyboard will be blanks except for the interrobang esc. (ideally, all thick black/dark grey PBT, with the interrobang being doubleshot orange on black). Every single key would be programmable.

[cribbit]

I'm sorry to take this thread off the layout topic. I'll be putting up a project thread in the DIY section to be properly asking for help with the electrical side.

Thanks for all the feedback on the layout! I'm glad it appears I didn't make any easily visible mistakes. Luckily, worst case assuming I manage to finish, I hate the layout and already have all the electrical stuff figured out.

[Findecanor]

That layout is not stupid at all, but finding keycaps for it would be difficult unless you would settle for blanks or all keys the same profile.

matt3o has made a keyboard that has almost that same layout, except for the bottom row which has a regular-sized Space bar. We were discussing on Deskthority about making a run of PCBs for that layout that would fit inside a Poker case (of which there are many third-party cases), but discovered that the switch positions would overlap with the cases' standoffs, so that idea was scrapped.

Many people do actually hit a 2u Backspace in the middle, and that 1u Backspace is in the middle of that.
However, I would like to suggest that you put a large key on the bottom row also for the left thumb, and map that to Backspace. Then you could map the key above \ to Delete and use a column of all four keys from the nav cluster (PgUp, Home, End, PgDn) on the right side.
Also, if you want to sell a few, some prospective buyers would rather want to hit Space with their left thumb.

[cribbit]

That layout is not stupid at all, but finding keycaps for it would be difficult unless you would settle for blanks or all keys the same profile.

matt3o has made a keyboard that has almost that same layout, except for the bottom row which has a regular-sized Space bar. We were discussing on Deskthority about making a run of PCBs for that layout that would fit inside a Poker case (of which there are many third-party cases), but discovered that the switch positions would overlap with the cases' standoffs, so that idea was scrapped.

Many people do actually hit a 2u Backspace in the middle, and that 1u Backspace is in the middle of that.
However, I would like to suggest that you put a large key on the bottom row also for the left thumb, and map that to Backspace. Then you could map the key above \ to Delete and use a column of all four keys from the nav cluster (PgUp, Home, End, PgDn) on the right side.
Also, if you want to sell a few, some prospective buyers would rather want to hit Space with their left thumb.

Thanks for pointing me to that thread! Do you know what makes that a 65% board rather than 60%? It appears to be 15 units wide and 5 tall, same as a 60%.

Luckily, I am actually aiming for entirely blanks, except for a custom esc key (the interrobang). Also, since I'm making my own everything, I can avoid overlapping with the standoffs. Thanks for letting me know to look out for that!

Due to the way I hit backspace,  I think I'll be comfortable with the small backspace.

That's a cool suggestion. However, I'm very ingrained on going up and right to find the backspace. As I mentioned, the entire board will be programmable, and with blank caps I can map whatever to whatever if I decide to move it later.

For now, I plan to only make one of these. Depending how my machining goes for the plate and the case*, I may do group buys or individual sales of parts for people who have ideas for customized parts but who lack access to the machinery to create them. Depending how the driver goes I may release it. However, parts of it may be incredibly dangerous (AHK can do some serious stuff). I will likely be able to release the pure firmware part of it, but not the AHK side of the driver.

*I'm thinking of making a case that also has a lid. I need it to be super portable. It would be like the keyboard is the bottom of a tupperware, and the rest of the case closes the tupperware for travel.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I think it is a decent layout.

A couple comments:

I don't like putting the extra column of keys on the right like that. It's hard to find those keys easily without extra spacing between it and the keys to the left. At least when they are home/end/pageup/pagedown like on boards like the KBT Race. It might be different for macros, so who knows.

I recommend relocating certain keys to where M1, M2, and M3 are located. It'd be easy to hit those with your thumb and I'd imagine you would use something like backspace or Ctrl a lot more than macros.

[jacobolus]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/699b49bcd0f360942affa3881ba06cdc

Overall looks nice, but I’d recommend slightly changing your bottom row. If you put a 2–3 unit wide key for each thumb, with their inner edges roughly aligned with the edge between G/H, I think it’ll be easier. (I recommend using one for space and the other for either shift or backwards delete.) Then you can put some smaller keys next to those on each side, in whatever layout.

Here’s my version from a week or two ago:

[cribbit]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I think that the full programmability solves most of those issues - I can always get a 3-wide for a left thumb bar, and program that to be backspace. I think you underestimate just how useless my left thumb is while I'm actually typing.

The column of keys - what else could I really use that space for, if not keys? Again, programmable and blank caps lets me use it for anything.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

For the column of keys on the right, I think it is an excellent spot but only if those keys have some spacing. If you look at the Matias mini boards, they have spacing on the right http://matias.ca/miniquietpro/pc/. I was able to adjust to that very quickly. Several months of using a board with no spacing and I still have a hard time hitting the correct keys by touch alone.

[cribbit]

I'm too invested in keeping it small to add space around them. I also think the smaller slash, enter and rshift, combined with them being on the very edge of the board, will allow me to still easily hit them, especially since they would be macro keys, not commonly hit.

[mikekuehn]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/699b49bcd0f360942affa3881ba06cdc

Overall looks nice, but I’d recommend slightly changing your bottom row. If you put a 2–3 unit wide key for each thumb, with their inner edges roughly aligned with the edge between G/H, I think it’ll be easier. (I recommend using one for space and the other for either shift or backwards delete.) Then you can put some smaller keys next to those on each side, in whatever layout.

Here’s my version from a week or two ago:

Show Image

I love space vs. backspace for a split spacebar.  It just intuitively makes sense. HOWEVER.. it may be more useful to put a modifier on your left thumb.

I'm typing this on a JP layout keyboard.  You can remap the extra thumb keys to play around with, all without soldering a thing.  I got this keyboard for $7 new.  Worth a try!

[cribbit]

What JP keyboard is that?

[kaltar]

You'll get used to any layout given time. your thumbs for sure will learn those tiny 1 u keys with some practice.

[mikekuehn]

What JP keyboard is that?

Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Lenovo-Preferred-Pro-USB-109-Key-Japanese-English-USB-Keyboard-42C0081-/360928709949?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item5409070d3d