Are you rationalizing your keyboard's preferences?

[ideus]

I am revisiting, "my preferred layout in my very own way."


There is no need to elaborate on a simple fact: I use a forty size keyboard because I can pay for it, and I like it. In the same way, I could prefer a battleship or something in the middle, and I do not need to convince anyone: my money, my likes, my way.


Consumer remorse reflects on what is called rationalization. Rationalize is a person that got something that does not meet her expectations and needs to justify it.


In this forum, there are many daily examples of over-elaboration—cases where people are trying to convince others that his preferences are justified.


What items in your collection have required the bravest posts on rationalizing them? How many times have you done it? Share your thoughts.

[Maledicted]

I think I'm pretty straightforward about what keyboards I own that are pretty much pointless, but they're cool anyway. I doubt I'll ever type for an extended period on my F XT ever again. My Ajazz AK33 is terrible in just about every single way other than size, price, and relatively cool RGB options for that price (if that matters).

Could you maybe elaborate on where this is going? Preference is preference, unless somebody can't give an alternative a fair shake, there's no arguing for or against the preferences of someone else. Justification is only involved in objective facts.

Relatedly, then, why would anybody ever need to attempt to rationalize the use and/or ownership of keyboards that they, in fact, do not like/prefer over others?

What about rationalizing anything requires bravery, in your estimation? I always figure it is more difficult to be objective, especially when it comes to potentially wasting money on something that sucks.

I can play along though, for fun. My F107 and F77 have many uses outside of typing. I can chock the wheels of semi trucks on steep inclines with them, anchor boats with them, knock out intruders, use them as body armor, weigh down tarps in high winds with them, use them in place of sledge hammers for demolition, tie off on them for bungee jumping, etc, etc. Their utility is endless.

[-Jerry-]

I can play along though, for fun. My F107 and F77 have many uses outside of typing. I can chock the wheels of semi trucks on steep inclines with them, anchor boats with them, knock out intruders, use them as body armor, weigh down tarps in high winds with them, use them in place of sledge hammers for demolition, tie off on them for bungee jumping, etc, etc. Their utility is endless.

I always thought that if I could get the TRSS cables to attach more firmly, my Iris' would make an excellent nunchaku type weapon.

[Maledicted]

I can play along though, for fun. My F107 and F77 have many uses outside of typing. I can chock the wheels of semi trucks on steep inclines with them, anchor boats with them, knock out intruders, use them as body armor, weigh down tarps in high winds with them, use them in place of sledge hammers for demolition, tie off on them for bungee jumping, etc, etc. Their utility is endless.

I always thought that if I could get the TRSS cables to attach more firmly, my Iris' would make an excellent nunchaku type weapon.

I think they may make some that can be threaded on. I know I have seen it with some 2.5mm, or so, connectors on fancy Sony camera microphones.

[jamster]

Consumer remorse reflects on what is called rationalization. Rationalize is a person that got something that does not meet her expectations and needs to justify it.


In this forum, there are many daily examples of over-elaboration—cases where people are trying to convince others that his preferences are justified.


What items in your collection have required the bravest posts on rationalizing them? How many times have you done it? Share your thoughts.

I've been vocal about my preferences for TKL. There's certainly no consumer remorse though, my three daily TKLs are all out of of production, two are relatively rare and I consider it good luck that I ended up with them.

The only boards that I needed to justify to myself were keeping my two Model Ms. I've told myself that they're to be kept indefinitely despite very limited storage space and moving between several countries, and will be used by my children. This has recently happened and my son's description of an M is that it's more 'fun' than his normal one, and he likes the numpad, so I now feel better about keeping Ms the past couple of decades.

I'm not sure that most keyboard preferences require rationalisation- they're for the most part easily affordable (ignoring boutique, small run examples) and are largely interchangeable. The part that requires rationalisation is our obsession with them, when the vast majority of society consider keyboards to be about as interesting as doorknobs.

This makes me think though, I've been fairly scathing of the trend here for overly elaborate keyboard cases. This is more an anti-preference though, and posting grouchy comments about about the misguided youf of today is hardly bravery.

[fohat.digs]

My keyboard prefers to be kept clean (and especially free of food crumbs and grease), to not have its electrical connections jiggled, and to not be typed on extra hard when its owner is in an irritated mood.
 

[funkmon]

Okay, I have always rationalized Models M superiority over virtually all keyboards for two reasons: layout and sound.

That's right, yes, but it's because I was too big of a wuss to really give the Models F a shot. I always maintained that the number pad was indispensable, which it is, but I didn't think I could avoid being annoyed at the lack of nav cluster, and the stepped keys I knew would be irritating. Well, it turns out, the stepped keys aren't irritating and I'm not annoyed by the lack of nav cluster, as you can apparently just hit shift plus the number key to use the navigation commands, which I ONLY RECENTLY FOUND OUT! God damn.

Anyway, this fact, plus the higher pitched pingier sound, made me go with Models M or other keyboards in a modern layout. While I am still completely satisfied with Models M, I now prefer the damn XT.

This very thing prompted me to buy a 4704, since its layout could be changed to that of the M, plus a few extra keys, plus the sound would be lessened a bit. It's why I tried an AT, as it would make the sound thockier.

But now, after using the M, after using the F107, after using the AT, after all that ****, I still think the Model F XT is the best keyboard and I have been trying to rationalize other, less good keyboards because of the layout and sound. It turns out I was just too big of a wuss to learn to like the sound and the layout! Now it's fine.

[Leslieann]

You may rationalize what you spend, but not sure you need to rationalize the feel, at least not if you have many to pick from.

As for old IBM boards, they've earned their reputation, I don't think there's a need to rationalize anything about them.

[cheesy_jones]

I think possibly subjectivity is being confused with rationale here.

[TeemoShroom]

I'm relatively new to keyboards but some things I've seen people rationalize whilst researching and browsing:

20%/30%/40% boards: "I use multiple layers and that makes me more productive, my 20 switch keyboard has more "keys" then your fullsize due to the use of layers!". Maybe I'm still a noob, but couldn't you program custom layers and layouts on 60%/65%/TKL/Fullsize as well? Why would a smaller board with custom layers be more productive then a bigger board with custom layouts and layers? Having extra desk space is definitely a plus though.

Aviator cables: "I switch keyboards often so the use of an $100 aviator cable will preserve the keyboards USB plug". Sure, but wouldn't a USB hub or USB extension cable with a shorter 6" USB cable do the same thing for $10 and be more practical?

"Holy Pandas are the best switches! the tactile bump is nice, smooth and round! Other tactile switches such as T1s, Box Royals and Zealios are ttttooooooo tactile and just jarring!" I wish I could afford some Holy Pandas to try just for the hype, but I feel I might just be disappointed. I also understand different people have different taste, sight, hearing, feeling and what I sense is different from what someone else might sense and this is why people have different preferences.

[Maledicted]

I'm relatively new to keyboards but some things I've seen people rationalize whilst researching and browsing:

20%/30%/40% boards: "I use multiple layers and that makes me more productive, my 20 switch keyboard has more "keys" then your fullsize due to the use of layers!". Maybe I'm still a noob, but couldn't you program custom layers and layouts on 60%/65%/TKL/Fullsize as well? Why would a smaller board with custom layers be more productive then a bigger board with custom layouts and layers? Having extra desk space is definitely a plus though.

I believe that the best argument there is that the keys that they use most are exactly where they want them without having to entirely leave the home row (like arrow keys, etc). Otherwise, yes, the reasoning doesn't really objectively go anywhere else besides that and size. Another thing repeatedly mentioned is it has some sort of ergonomic benefit, in specific circumstances, like hands being closer together when mousing/gaming, making up for some kind of handicap, etc. I find that to be almost intangible, certainly at least personalized, if not entirely subjective. Maybe not though.

Personally, I recently found that my preference for ctrl being exactly where it is on a modern keyboard, and being dumbfounded by the preference of some to have it where Capslock traditionally is, may itself be a bit of an anomaly based on the fact that I have pretty long fingers and am double jointed. There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and even rules that should not be so.

Aviator cables: "I switch keyboards often so the use of an $100 aviator cable will preserve the keyboards USB plug". Sure, but wouldn't a USB hub or USB extension cable with a shorter 6" USB cable do the same thing for $10 and be more practical?

Aviator connectors, themselves, are not very expensive. making your own cables is cheap. Those pointless inline aviator connectors ... in an otherwise normal USB cable don't have much going for them in the practical department if you ask me. I would worry more about the weight they add to the more fragile connectors on either end, and physical damage to them, than the number of insertions. I have never permanently damaged a USB connector just by plugging it in and unplugging it before. I did recently have the plastic inside of a USB type A connector (my first of any kind) break off due to the weight of my custom cable, over time. In that way, USB hubs are better than fancy aviator cables. I like to add female GX12 aviator sockets to the cases of the keyboards I customize, then I can literally pick the keyboard up by the cable. That makes a custom cable worth it. Those blingy ones, not so much.

"Holy Pandas are the best switches! the tactile bump is nice, smooth and round! Other tactile switches such as T1s, Box Royals and Zealios are ttttooooooo tactile and just jarring!" I wish I could afford some Holy Pandas to try just for the hype, but I feel I might just be disappointed. I also understand different people have different taste, sight, hearing, feeling and what I sense is different from what someone else might sense and this is why people have different preferences.

Yeah, a general consensus, if primarily based on experience, is good, even if it is subjective. We only run into problems when too many people support that consensus because that's what they heard without experience and/or are influenced by said consensus over their own perception. Even if this were never a problem, you still need to find what you prefer. The switches popularly considered to be the best in any category should merely be good reference points for your own comparison.

There's no one switch to rule them all. There are people who love Cherry MX Brown and swear by them compared to anything else they have tried. Personally, I can't think of much else worse than MX brown. I, personally, love capacitive buckling spring. Others hate it in spite of its feel because of the way it sounds. Some even think membrane buckling spring feels better to them, even though the conventional wisdom is that capacitive (IBM Models F) buckling spring is superior, etc, etc.

[Polymer]

I am revisiting, "my preferred layout in my very own way."


There is no need to elaborate on a simple fact: I use a forty size keyboard because I can pay for it, and I like it. In the same way, I could prefer a battleship or something in the middle, and I do not need to convince anyone: my money, my likes, my way.


Consumer remorse reflects on what is called rationalization. Rationalize is a person that got something that does not meet her expectations and needs to justify it.


In this forum, there are many daily examples of over-elaboration—cases where people are trying to convince others that his preferences are justified.


What items in your collection have required the bravest posts on rationalizing them? How many times have you done it? Share your thoughts.

Discussing their preference is not necessarily rationalization...To you it might seem like it and maybe it really is but I think what happens is if a person disagrees with another person, they think that person is rationalizing their purchase.

Eg.  Many years ago some people used to think people that bought Topre or a HHKB were just rationalizing their decision because it was relatively expensive and they had to justify their purchase.  People that actually liked Topre knew otherwise but to those that tried it and hated it, could only comprehend that those people are wrong and must be rationalizing their purchase.

Given the relatively high resale of most niche keyboards, there is very little need to rationalize your purchases because you could just sell it for a minimal loss and move on. 

[Maledicted]

Eg.  Many years ago some people used to think people that bought Topre or a HHKB were just rationalizing their decision because it was relatively expensive and they had to justify their purchase.  People that actually liked Topre knew otherwise but to those that tried it and hated it, could only comprehend that those people are wrong and must be rationalizing their purchase.

Topre seems great to me, and I don't even particularly like tactiles. If you put it head to head against any random rubber domes, it can be easy to see why some people feel it is overblown, but it is so much more refined, smooth, and consistent. It isn't right for everyone, but you would think that anybody with an open mind could see its intrinsic value regardless after having tried it, and considering that it is capacitive without the inherent weakness of a membrane, etc.

[-Jerry-]

Personally, I recently found that my preference for ctrl being exactly where it is on a modern keyboard, and being dumbfounded by the preference of some to have it where Capslock traditionally is, may itself be a bit of an anomaly based on the fact that I have pretty long fingers and am double jointed. There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and even rules that should not be so.

This. Especially if you're used to shortcuts the way they are and prefer to retain muscle memory for such. If I'm being honest, I really can't see the benefit of HHKB/WKL layouts other than aesthetics. There's an argument that WKLs helped gamers not hit the win key during games, but these days that makes no sense to me. No, I like my keys where they are.

On the subject of capslock though, one thing that using Colemak for a while got me onto was that your left pinkie finger is lazy. Slap a backspace where capslock lives, put it to work! That said, I run a backspace in the caps position and in the top right now, because I never know which side of the keyboard I'll want to use at any given time, haha. Layers mean that's not an issue though, because the capslock is still the capslock when I want it to be *shrug*

[Maledicted]

Personally, I recently found that my preference for ctrl being exactly where it is on a modern keyboard, and being dumbfounded by the preference of some to have it where Capslock traditionally is, may itself be a bit of an anomaly based on the fact that I have pretty long fingers and am double jointed. There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and even rules that should not be so.

This. Especially if you're used to shortcuts the way they are and prefer to retain muscle memory for such. If I'm being honest, I really can't see the benefit of HHKB/WKL layouts other than aesthetics. There's an argument that WKLs helped gamers not hit the win key during games, but these days that makes no sense to me. No, I like my keys where they are.

On the subject of capslock though, one thing that using Colemak for a while got me onto was that your left pinkie finger is lazy. Slap a backspace where capslock lives, put it to work! That said, I run a backspace in the caps position and in the top right now, because I never know which side of the keyboard I'll want to use at any given time, haha. Layers mean that's not an issue though, because the capslock is still the capslock when I want it to be *shrug*

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, making capslock actually useful for something is definitely a noble goal. There's no reason for that key to even exist.

[treeleaf64]

Personally, I recently found that my preference for ctrl being exactly where it is on a modern keyboard, and being dumbfounded by the preference of some to have it where Capslock traditionally is, may itself be a bit of an anomaly based on the fact that I have pretty long fingers and am double jointed. There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and even rules that should not be so.

This. Especially if you're used to shortcuts the way they are and prefer to retain muscle memory for such. If I'm being honest, I really can't see the benefit of HHKB/WKL layouts other than aesthetics. There's an argument that WKLs helped gamers not hit the win key during games, but these days that makes no sense to me. No, I like my keys where they are.

On the subject of capslock though, one thing that using Colemak for a while got me onto was that your left pinkie finger is lazy. Slap a backspace where capslock lives, put it to work! That said, I run a backspace in the caps position and in the top right now, because I never know which side of the keyboard I'll want to use at any given time, haha. Layers mean that's not an issue though, because the capslock is still the capslock when I want it to be *shrug*

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my hears in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, making capslock actually useful for something is definitely a noble goal. There's no reason for that key to even exist.

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

[-Jerry-]

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

[CarnageHimura]

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

I think I can, let me try! xD  I'm been testing this "HHKB" thing of putting Ctrl on the CapsLock on my ALT, at first, because I read here someone saying that he barely used CapsLock and only presses it by error, so I give it a try, is quick to get used to have Ctrl there and, the most important I think, you start to use more a key that was relegated to a very low use and you Win a new Function/Layer Key on the bottom row.

At this point, it hasn't occurred to me what new functions to put in the new layer for that key, but that's not the discussion right now, jejeje

[-Jerry-]

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

I think I can, let me try! xD  I'm been testing this "HHKB" thing of putting Ctrl on the CapsLock on my ALT, at first, because I read here someone saying that he barely used CapsLock and only presses it by error, so I give it a try, is quick to get used to have Ctrl there and, the most important I think, you start to use more a key that was relegated to a very low use and you Win a new Function/Layer Key on the bottom row.

At this point, it hasn't occurred to me what new functions to put in the new layer for that key, but that's not the discussion right now, jejeje

That argument can be made for any key though, which is the beauty of programmable keyboards. It's all personal preference, of course, but I run Tap = Backspace, Hold = Layer 2 on my CapsLock key, so gain a backspace for my left little finger (which now actually gets used) AND an extra function key, from the same key. Plus I get the bonus of having Ctrl in the same place it always is for shortcuts.

My point about HHKB layout is that it's purely for the aesthetic, it serves no real purpose. Sure, you can move the Ctrl key to Caps Lock, but you can do that without removing keys in the lower corners.

[CarnageHimura]

Yes, I totally understand your point, for example I really cant use a KB without Win Key, why? personal preferencie, I use that thing a lot and really don't understand the people who hates it (unless they hate Windows and only use Linux) but as all, is a mater of personal preference...

Now... I'm more intrigued on your double tap key configuration, I really need to start diving on QMK advanced configurations!

[-Jerry-]

Yes, I totally understand your point, for example I really cant use a KB without Win Key, why? personal preferencie, I use that thing a lot and really don't understand the people who hates it (unless they hate Windows and only use Linux) but as all, is a mater of personal preference...

Now... I'm more intrigued on your double tap key configuration, I really need to start diving on QMK advanced configurations!

It’s really simple to implement, just LT(Layer Number, Keycode) - so on my CapsLock key I have it set as LT(2,KC_BSPC)

You can do the same thing with any modifier key, so you can have your control key be capslock when tapped and control when held, for example LCTL_T(KC_CAPS)

[CarnageHimura]

I'm already aplied that change to my CapsLock and now I have the best of both worlds, jejeje, Thank you!

[Leslieann]

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some people hit it A LOT.

[Maledicted]

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some people hit it A LOT.

Sure, I just can't wrap my head around how.

[rhubarbpi]

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

For Software development!
Having Control in the Capslock place makes it much easier to manipulate commands in an IDE when you code!

Any other purpose though, and its frustrating lol

[Maledicted]

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

For Software development!
Having Control in the Capslock place makes it much easier to manipulate commands in an IDE when you code!

Any other purpose though, and its frustrating lol

Could you explain? It has been a long time since I have done any programming, and that was mostly just in Eclipse, whatever little of it I did do.

[rhubarbpi]

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

For Software development!
Having Control in the Capslock place makes it much easier to manipulate commands in an IDE when you code!

Any other purpose though, and its frustrating lol

Could you explain? It has been a long time since I have done any programming, and that was mostly just in Eclipse, whatever little of it I did do.

Eclipse! I have to use JDeveloper because I work on a legacy project at work lol

CTRL A to copy code, CTRL S to save the file, CTRL V to place copied code - plus CTRL clicking with mouse on variables to find appropriate methods.  The fact that A & S are so close in this layout, with V not far, makes it easier to me to use my pinky when in the Zone.

My 3 daily drivers are all vintage Apple at this point, and after using them all extensively, the IIgs & M0116 I simply work faster in code than the M0115 because of it. 

That being said, I just speak for myself as I know others despise the Unix layout lol

[Maledicted]

WKL and HHKB are best layout, bc WKL

Capslock is good for remapping to Control

Give me one good reason why Control is better placed on Caps Lock than in the bottom left! hehe

For Software development!
Having Control in the Capslock place makes it much easier to manipulate commands in an IDE when you code!

Any other purpose though, and its frustrating lol

Could you explain? It has been a long time since I have done any programming, and that was mostly just in Eclipse, whatever little of it I did do.

Eclipse! I have to use JDeveloper because I work on a legacy project at work lol

CTRL A to copy code, CTRL S to save the file, CTRL V to place copied code - plus CTRL clicking with mouse on variables to find appropriate methods.  The fact that A & S are so close in this layout, with V not far, makes it easier to me to use my pinky when in the Zone.

My 3 daily drivers are all vintage Apple at this point, and after using them all extensively, the IIgs & M0116 I simply work faster in code than the M0115 because of it. 

That being said, I just speak for myself as I know others despise the Unix layout lol

Almost all of those are pretty commonly-used hotkeys in most applications. ctrl being close to ctrl a and s, if you're using them literally every few minutes, or more often than that, does make sense. I don't mind the modern standard positioning for ctrl for any of that myself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[fohat.digs]

I am always flummoxed when I see these discussions about Control.

Having Control key(s) at the extreme outside bottom corners of the main body of keys makes them exceptionally easy to find - the perfect place for them, in my opinion.

[Leslieann]

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some people hit it A LOT.

Sure, I just can't wrap my head around how.

In my experience, it's mostly while gaming, there's nothing to home your fingers to when using WASD, being off by one key is all it takes for a crouch to get booted out of a game.

[jamster]

I am always flummoxed when I see these discussions about Control.

Having Control key(s) at the extreme outside bottom corners of the main body of keys makes them exceptionally easy to find - the perfect place for them, in my opinion.

Personally, having Control and Caps Lock swapped around brings control onto the home row. Both positions are easy to find, but home row is a fair bit easier as well as more natural.

In my experience, it's mostly while gaming, there's nothing to home your fingers to when using WASD, being off by one key is all it takes for a crouch to get booted out of a game.

I shift my WASD keys to ESDF. That means my fingers are homed using the F key, and there are also extra keys (around 4) available for in-game use.

A long time ago, I used to occasionally hit the Windows key when gaming, but don't recall this happening since shifting to ESDF. This is probably helped by the Windows key being even harder to reach with my pinky or ring finger with this lateral shift.

[treeleaf64]

For one, Ctrl --> Capslock

It means that you don't need to move your hand down . Wrist ergonomics
Who even uses Caps lock anyway

Just move your pinky left , and you have access to Ctrl X, C, V without moving your hand in a bad position



Also while gaming it is good to crouch spam, and you don't need to move far away. 

[Polymer]

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some people hit it A LOT.

Sure, I just can't wrap my head around how.

In my experience, it's mostly while gaming, there's nothing to home your fingers to when using WASD, being off by one key is all it takes for a crouch to get booted out of a game.

Isn't it just easier having a windows key lock rather than remove it completely? 

Seems better than getting rid of it completely and replacing it with nothing...If you like the look, that's a different subject..

[Leslieann]

Isn't it just easier having a windows key lock rather than remove it completely? 

Seems better than getting rid of it completely and replacing it with nothing...If you like the look, that's a different subject..

Not every board supports that and many that do require you to flip the board and toggle a switch. Not exactly practical.

Also, not every OS needs a Winkey.

[Polymer]

Isn't it just easier having a windows key lock rather than remove it completely? 

Seems better than getting rid of it completely and replacing it with nothing...If you like the look, that's a different subject..

Not every board supports that and many that do require you to flip the board and toggle a switch. Not exactly practical.

Also, not every OS needs a Winkey.

Sure but you're talking about WKL right?  So how many modern keyboards come without it?  So if you're making a winkeyless keyboard, you could just as easily incorporate a win key lock via software rather than dipswitch.

And for an OS that doesn't need winkey...having one and accidentally hitting it isn't an issue either right? 

[Leslieann]

Sure but you're talking about WKL right?  So how many modern keyboards come without it?  So if you're making a winkeyless keyboard, you could just as easily incorporate a win key lock via software rather than dipswitch.

And for an OS that doesn't need winkey...having one and accidentally hitting it isn't an issue either right?

Many modern boards require software to lock it out if they don't use a dipswitch, rarely do they support anything other than Windows. Yes, I could put in a firmware lockout if I design my own but if I pretty much never use it then what's the point? It costs me extra time designing and the price of another switch.


The Winkey can still do things you don't want, for example in Linux it allows you to drag a window.

[Polymer]

Sure but you're talking about WKL right?  So how many modern keyboards come without it?  So if you're making a winkeyless keyboard, you could just as easily incorporate a win key lock via software rather than dipswitch.

And for an OS that doesn't need winkey...having one and accidentally hitting it isn't an issue either right?

Many modern boards require software to lock it out if they don't use a dipswitch, rarely do they support anything other than Windows. Yes, I could put in a firmware lockout if I design my own but if I pretty much never use it then what's the point? It costs me extra time designing and the price of another switch.


The Winkey can still do things you don't want, for example in Linux it allows you to drag a window.

What's the point?  You mean what's the point of having a keyboard that can cover many different bases? 

If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 

I get why some people want WKL, they like the way it looks and they don't ever need the key..but functionally, there is basically no reason to do it.  There are better ways to implement it while maintaining the flexibility and functionality. 

Again, if you just like the way it looks 
But if you're going to say it isn't worth putting in because it requires another switch.  Or say how other OS's aren't windows so they don't need it and then say how they do use it...it really just comes down to:  If the only reason you want WKL is because you accidentally hit it during gaming, wouldn't it be better just to make it so you can turn off the WIN key when needed rather than actually remove it from the keyboard?  Answer seems pretty obvious...

[tp4tissue]

Ergonomics Can't be rationalized.

Split keeb,  Tenting 55*,   

[Leslieann]

If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 

Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

[Sintpinty]

It doesn't matter about my keyboards preferences because they aren't a living being. It can be whatever i want it to

[Polymer]

If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 

Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

Is that the logic in your head?  So you equate the Winkey which doesn't change the keyboard shape or actual usage to that of Full size vs. TKL, etc?  That's a pretty big stretch and I'm sure you know it. 

[Maledicted]

Yeah, I will never understand the dislike of the Windows key. It is endlessly useful. In all of my years in PC gaming, I think I accidentally hit it during a game ... once, in a game with particularly terrible console port-style controls. It seems entirely like a non-issue to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Some people hit it A LOT.

Sure, I just can't wrap my head around how.

In my experience, it's mostly while gaming, there's nothing to home your fingers to when using WASD, being off by one key is all it takes for a crouch to get booted out of a game.

I know gaming is where it is most maligned. How many games use ctrl for crouch? It seems to me to usually be c or something. ctrl is rarely used at all in most games I have played, sometimes to control run/walk instead of caps or something else in the periphery of usefulness. Regardless, I think wandering from wasd is easily avoidable, and in any fast-paced game of reasonable difficulty, it seems you would probably be dead whether you minimized the game or just accidentally hit the wrong navigation key or secondary control.

For one, Ctrl --> Capslock

It means that you don't need to move your hand down . Wrist ergonomics
Who even uses Caps lock anyway

Just move your pinky left , and you have access to Ctrl X, C, V without moving your hand in a bad position



Also while gaming it is good to crouch spam, and you don't need to move far away. 

I don't move my hand to use ctrl. I may well be a space alien or something though.

[jamster]

If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 

Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

Is that the logic in your head?  So you equate the Winkey which doesn't change the keyboard shape or actual usage to that of Full size vs. TKL, etc?  That's a pretty big stretch and I'm sure you know it.

I think that the spirit of this thread is that our preferences don't really have to make that much sense to others.

Personally, I have no issue with the Windows key even though I haven't used it for years (started using it this year just for moving windows around). I find it perfectly harmless, and keep wondering why people continue to ask for WKL on group buy keyboards.

I can understand the preference for spacing between keys though. I personally find the arrow cluster far more usable when they are standalone.

[Leslieann]

If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 

Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

Is that the logic in your head?  So you equate the Winkey which doesn't change the keyboard shape or actual usage to that of Full size vs. TKL, etc?  That's a pretty big stretch and I'm sure you know it.

You said why "be limited", well if you're going to say shaving a key is limiting myself then the clear answer must be we should all use a full size because everything else is limiting. You can always turn off numlock right? I was throwing your logic back at you.

I don't get the problem, lot's of keyboards are winkeyless by choice.
Some do it due to hatred of the key, some don't need it, some prefer the looks, I just don't have a need for it. Had you asked me this 8  or 10 years ago, absolutely I would have demanded keeping it, it's really useful in Windows. It's less useful in Linux.

Actually the real reason is I just hate seeing that stupid icon. /S

[ideus]

On rationalizing a vendor's misbehaving.


GMK is ignoring the issues on its spacebars, and they are keeping up the production and taking more orders. It appears that it does not matter how bad the quality is getting lately. GMK is stubbornly manufacturing keycap sets with the same warping defects.
The continuous flow of GMK interest checks and group buy at GH is an example of a collective rationalization. It is also called group-thinking. While some boards are getting posts after posts with complaints, GB leaders are steadily quoting more keycap sets with GMK.
What is happening? Are we the sort of blind consumer that keep buying products, even with severe and ugly quality issues? Are we blind GMK fanboys?

[treeleaf64]

GMK does not have huge problem . . .

It's not life or death,   spacebar fits properly  .

GMK known to not fix molds  .  But it shows that laziness creates opportunity for competitors to arise  (see AMD / Intel )

[livewirerc]

The only person I have to rationalize to is my girlfriend about why I never have any non-HHKB layout keyboards attached to the media machine.

Seriously though HHKB > everything. I've slowly weeded out every non-HHKB layout keyboard over the years to the point where the five main keyboards I type on are all the exact same programmed layout. I still keep the old ones around out of sentimental attachment, but I can't think of the last time I used one other than to test its functionality/switch feel.

[Polymer]

If you're designing a keyboard, why would you want to be limited when you can do both?

You're making up these reasons but lets be honest, they're really weak. 

Going by that logic we should all be using full size, "just don't use the extra keys, why limit yourself".

I never said this was for everyone, the thread is rationalizing our preferences
I run Linux, my biggest use of the Winkey is to shift a window without grabbing the top bar, that's it. I have the left Winkey blocked off of the Filco and I disable it on the GMMK.

Is that the logic in your head?  So you equate the Winkey which doesn't change the keyboard shape or actual usage to that of Full size vs. TKL, etc?  That's a pretty big stretch and I'm sure you know it.

You said why "be limited", well if you're going to say shaving a key is limiting myself then the clear answer must be we should all use a full size because everything else is limiting. You can always turn off numlock right? I was throwing your logic back at you.

I don't get the problem, lot's of keyboards are winkeyless by choice.
Some do it due to hatred of the key, some don't need it, some prefer the looks, I just don't have a need for it. Had you asked me this 8  or 10 years ago, absolutely I would have demanded keeping it, it's really useful in Windows. It's less useful in Linux.

Actually the real reason is I just hate seeing that stupid icon. /S

That's not my logic because FULL size means a bigger keyboard which is something completely different.  Does the lack of windows key change the form factor of your keyboard?    If you're going to compare logic, at least have it make sense. 
Your argument before stemmed around accidentally hitting it during a gaming session...but there are probably better ways to rid yourself of that problem w/o removing the key if you have a choice.  That's the point.  You then made up a bunch of other lame reasons when the only real reason is what you just said...You don't like the way it looks - Done. 

[Maledicted]

What is happening? Are we the sort of blind consumer that keep buying products, even with severe and ugly quality issues? Are we blind GMK fanboys?

I wouldn't know. I rarely look at groupbuys and don't plan on ever owning a set of GMK caps when I can get some nice thick sets for $30-40, or just use random cheap/thin lasered caps. I don't care if they're random Chinesium with no branding if they fit and sound fine to me.

[Rob27shred]

For awhile I rationalized my switch preferences TBH. When I first got into the hobby ergo clears & V1 Zealios were all the rage, plus tactile switches seemed to be the best type for me after testing them, linear, & clicky switches loose. Also my first proper modern MKB was a Rosewill Apollo with MX browns so I was used to tactile switches before I started building too. So for the better part of 5 years I just would not give linear or clicky switches a fair shot. Sure I did some builds with both, but never really gave them the proper time or consideration before going back to tactiles.

Although recently with JWK/Durock flooding the market with affordable high quality linear MX switches, I finally decided to revisit linears properly. Well guess what, it turns out linears have proven to be my favorite type of MX switch. Ever since I rebuilt my E6.5 with Alpacas I have almost exclusively been using linear switches. I rebuilt my E6.5 about 6 months ago & have only used my tactile boards maybe a handful times since then. Also I swapped out the tactile switches for linear switches in all my favorite boards, then have been using linear switches exclusively on all my personal builds since then. Can't say exactly why I was so hung up on tactiles & wouldn't give any other switch type a fair shake for so long. I can say now that I have gave linears & clickies a proper fair shot, being honest to myself about how I feel about them, linears really seem to be much more comfortable than tactiles to me.

Bonus rationalization, spring weightings..... LOL! This was another thing I kinda arbitrarily settled on before giving a good range of weights a fair try. For the same time I was tactile addict, I also was a big proponent of heavily weighted springs. 80g bottom out was my favorite spring weighting & I was not afraid to go beyond that. For awhile I had a Vortex Pok3r with 150g Gat Clears in it ! Thankfully when I decided I needed to give other switch types a honest try, I also figured it would be the time to give lighter weighted springs a try too. Same as finding I prefer linears to tactiles I found I actually prefer medium weighted springs the best (say 50g to 65g bottom out). With 63.5g progressive or slow curve springs being my absolute favorite weighting. So take it from me guys, sometimes it pays to step outside your comfort zones!                                                                                        

[treeleaf64]

What is happening? Are we the sort of blind consumer that keep buying products, even with severe and ugly quality issues? Are we blind GMK fanboys?

I wouldn't know. I rarely look at groupbuys and don't plan on ever owning a set of GMK caps when I can get some nice thick sets for $30-40, or just use random cheap/thin lasered caps. I don't care if they're random Chinesium with no branding if they fit and sound fine to me.

GMK good for buyers with money  , who  may prefer Shine and sound of ABS   

Of course there are plenty of cheap keycap set of Dyesub PBT ( Look on Ali express if you don't believe   me)

  If you want   best legend quality , fit , with no warp,   you can just get OG Cherry keycap .

But if you are willing to trade these  for  price , cheap PBT is always there for you

[treeleaf64]

For awhile I rationalized my switch preferences TBH. When I first got into the hobby ergo clears & V1 Zealios were all the rage, plus tactile switches seemed to be the best type for me after testing them, linear, & clicky switches loose. Also my first proper modern MKB was a Rosewill Apollo with MX browns so I was used to tactile switches before I started building too. So for the better part of 5 years I just would not give linear or clicky switches a fair shot. Sure I did some builds with both, but never really gave them the proper time or consideration before going back to tactiles.

Although recently with JWK/Durock flooding the market with affordable high quality linear MX switches, I finally decided to revisit linears properly. Well guess what, it turns out linears have proven to be my favorite type of MX switch. Ever since I rebuilt my E6.5 with Alpacas I have almost exclusively been using linear switches. I rebuilt my E6.5 about 6 months ago & have only used my tactile boards maybe a handful times since then. Also I swapped out the tactile switches for linear switches in all my favorite boards, then have been using linear switches exclusively on all my personal builds since then. Can't say exactly why I was so hung up on tactiles & wouldn't give any other switch type a fair shake for so long. I can say now that I have gave linears & clickies a proper fair shot, being honest to myself about how I feel about them, linears really seem to be much more comfortable than tactiles to me.

Bonus rationalization, spring weightings..... LOL! This was another thing I kinda arbitrarily settled on before giving a good range of weights a fair try. For the same time I was tactile addict, I also was a big proponent of heavily weighted springs. 80g bottom out was my favorite spring weighting & I was not afraid to go beyond that. For awhile I had a Vortex Pok3r with 150g Gat Clears in it ! Thankfully when I decided I needed to give other switch types a honest try, I also figured it would be the time to give lighter weighted springs a try too. Same as finding I prefer linears to tactiles I found I actually prefer medium weighted springs the best (say 50g to 65g bottom out). With 63.5g progressive or slow curve springs being my absolute favorite weighting. So take it from me guys, sometimes it pays to step outside your comfort zones!                                                                                        

Yes ,  same with me . .  Used to  hate on people that used anything lower than 70g    .  . .  now I can't use 65g    .  we will see in the    future   how my preference changes !!

~treeleaf

[Maledicted]

What is happening? Are we the sort of blind consumer that keep buying products, even with severe and ugly quality issues? Are we blind GMK fanboys?

I wouldn't know. I rarely look at groupbuys and don't plan on ever owning a set of GMK caps when I can get some nice thick sets for $30-40, or just use random cheap/thin lasered caps. I don't care if they're random Chinesium with no branding if they fit and sound fine to me.

GMK good for buyers with money  , who  may prefer Shine and sound of ABS   

Of course there are plenty of cheap keycap set of Dyesub PBT ( Look on Ali express if you don't believe   me)

  If you want   best legend quality , fit , with no warp,   you can just get OG Cherry keycap .

But if you are willing to trade these  for  price , cheap PBT is always there for you

I'm not going to stare and drool at my keyboard all day. I have plenty of nice thick sets that cost me a fraction of what the big names would that look great. Some might not have perfect mold marks beneath, but I'm also not ever looking at the bottoms of the caps either. Unless I want some fun novelty like metal caps on one of my K65s, or something to better match the themes of the case than whatever came on it, I usually leave caps alone. I would also give an exception for the paint on the cheap backlit caps wearing off, but even that has never happened to me. My most-used K70s are shined like a mirror but the legends are still perfect. I have a few sets of PBT double shots I got cheap on Aliexpress for them, but I'm still conflicted on 1) Whether or not I care enough to bother swapping them and 2) Whether or not I'll put up with their texture, since I actually love shined caps.

Yes ,  same with me . .  Used to  hate on people that used anything lower than 70g    .  . .  now I can't use 65g    .  we will see in the    future   how my preference changes !!

~treeleaf

Did you really hate on people that used anything lower than 70g? It is all preference, afterall. I know some people find relatively light standard MX weightings to be too heavy and it never occurred to me to care outside of the fact that they're cutting most of the market entirely out of their options without spring swaps.

[treeleaf64]

Yes  I used to hate on them   until I became one of them 


Until you have owned premium GMK you will not see why it is hyped. Once you own it, you will say, "Now I understand."
The colors and legends are very high quality, the thickness can be felt. ABS is good material to make keycaps out of.

[Leslieann]

You don't like the way it looks - Done.

Yes, it's all about looks. 
Me with my scratched paint, $20 key caps (thick PBT FTW) and 3d printed block -off plate. Anyone who has followed what I've written long enough will know, I don't do keyboards for looks, they're a tool to me.

Yes, Mac and Linux can use it, that doesn't mean it fits my particular work flow which is different on Mac and Linux. Workflow is one of the more difficult hassles of switching OSes for power users. The only time I use it is to correct things it messed up which would not have happened if it wasn't there to begin with. I'm FAR more likely to use CTRL-ALT+F key than I am any Winkey combo.



Yes, I could print a nicer block or remove the switch and lower it (there is a switch underneath), I printed that about 6 years ago and just haven't bothered to redo it. Why? Because it works just fine.

[jamster]

On rationalizing a vendor's misbehaving.


GMK is ignoring the issues on its spacebars, and they are keeping up the production and taking more orders. It appears that it does not matter how bad the quality is getting lately. GMK is stubbornly manufacturing keycap sets with the same warping defects.
The continuous flow of GMK interest checks and group buy at GH is an example of a collective rationalization. It is also called group-thinking. While some boards are getting posts after posts with complaints, GB leaders are steadily quoting more keycap sets with GMK.
What is happening? Are we the sort of blind consumer that keep buying products, even with severe and ugly quality issues? Are we blind GMK fanboys?

Rhetorical question, right? 'Cause if not, the answer is clearly Yes.

I have a GMK set. It's pretty, but I don't really care and it's on someone elses' board. My current caps are pretty ugly- $4 set from China, I guess I really should replace them as the profile is bit too high. 

Edit: Would I ever buy another set? Certainly not whilst they have a reputation for warped space bars.  I expect a lot more from a set that covers what I'd need (full size plus 40s), where a big selling point is Made in Germany.

[funkmon]

Yes  I used to hate on them   until I became one of them 

Same thing. I was even a heavy switch user until recently, scoffing at the Box Jades and Model F of the world while I clacked away happily on my Models M and Box Navy.

Then I tried a Matias, which is a bit lighter in feel, I think, and then it went all downhill from there. Now I can barely type for a half hour on a Model M, which let's remind ourselves, is a great typist keyboard on which people type (and still type) on for years.

I'm okay though at least because I know it's really more a matter of getting used to it than anything.

[Polymer]

I'm not going to stare and drool at my keyboard all day. I have plenty of nice thick sets that cost me a fraction of what the big names would that look great. Some might not have perfect mold marks beneath, but I'm also not ever looking at the bottoms of the caps either. Unless I want some fun novelty like metal caps on one of my K65s, or something to better match the themes of the case than whatever came on it, I usually leave caps alone. I would also give an exception for the paint on the cheap backlit caps wearing off, but even that has never happened to me. My most-used K70s are shined like a mirror but the legends are still perfect. I have a few sets of PBT double shots I got cheap on Aliexpress for them, but I'm still conflicted on 1) Whether or not I care enough to bother swapping them and 2) Whether or not I'll put up with their texture, since I actually love shined caps.

It's more than that...The more expensive keycaps are more expensive for a reason.  Generally the quality is better and you can tell by touch and sound that they feel better.

On the plus side, there are some cheaper decent keycaps out there that are "good enough".

I think GMK are good but I prefer PBT in general...I'm also not a scoop fan although it looks like most of the newer sets all have a FJ bar which is nice.  Right now one of my favorite sets is the Leopold stock Doubleshot PBT keycaps...they just feel great. 

Keycaps really just come down to looks and feel...either you want it because you like how they look...or you like how they feel for whatever reason.  But there is a feel difference between the better keycaps and the cheaper ones...which feel you prefer will just be personal pref. 

[Maledicted]

I'm not going to stare and drool at my keyboard all day. I have plenty of nice thick sets that cost me a fraction of what the big names would that look great. Some might not have perfect mold marks beneath, but I'm also not ever looking at the bottoms of the caps either. Unless I want some fun novelty like metal caps on one of my K65s, or something to better match the themes of the case than whatever came on it, I usually leave caps alone. I would also give an exception for the paint on the cheap backlit caps wearing off, but even that has never happened to me. My most-used K70s are shined like a mirror but the legends are still perfect. I have a few sets of PBT double shots I got cheap on Aliexpress for them, but I'm still conflicted on 1) Whether or not I care enough to bother swapping them and 2) Whether or not I'll put up with their texture, since I actually love shined caps.

It's more than that...The more expensive keycaps are more expensive for a reason.  Generally the quality is better and you can tell by touch and sound that they feel better.

How are you going to tell any caps apart from each other at all by feel other than profile, material, and texture? How do we quantify what is and is not high quality? Do I need to buy a $150 set of hunks of plastic to compare against the $40 set of hunks of plastic that cosmetically look no worse from above? What justifies such a disparity in price other than exclusivity/limited production? My cheap shined ABS caps don't feel any better or worse to me than my thick double shot PBT caps. There's a difference in sound, sure, but even that's a subjective preference, just like people obsessing over matte finishes or vice versa, and I can't imagine how that could have anything to do with a $150 set vs a $40 set if they're made of the same material and are of the same thickness.

[Polymer]

I'm not going to stare and drool at my keyboard all day. I have plenty of nice thick sets that cost me a fraction of what the big names would that look great. Some might not have perfect mold marks beneath, but I'm also not ever looking at the bottoms of the caps either. Unless I want some fun novelty like metal caps on one of my K65s, or something to better match the themes of the case than whatever came on it, I usually leave caps alone. I would also give an exception for the paint on the cheap backlit caps wearing off, but even that has never happened to me. My most-used K70s are shined like a mirror but the legends are still perfect. I have a few sets of PBT double shots I got cheap on Aliexpress for them, but I'm still conflicted on 1) Whether or not I care enough to bother swapping them and 2) Whether or not I'll put up with their texture, since I actually love shined caps.

It's more than that...The more expensive keycaps are more expensive for a reason.  Generally the quality is better and you can tell by touch and sound that they feel better.

How are you going to tell any caps apart from each other at all by feel other than profile, material, and texture? How do we quantify what is and is not high quality? Do I need to buy a $150 set of hunks of plastic to compare against the $40 set of hunks of plastic that cosmetically look no worse from above? What justifies such a disparity in price other than exclusivity/limited production? My cheap shined ABS caps don't feel any better or worse to me than my thick double shot PBT caps. There's a difference in sound, sure, but even that's a subjective preference, just like people obsessing over matte finishes or vice versa, and I can't imagine how that could have anything to do with a $150 set vs a $40 set if they're made of the same material and are of the same thickness.

Have you actually tried some of the more expensive different sets or are you just speculating?  You sound exactly like someone whose actually never owned and used any of the more premium keycaps sets..

But lets break it down..

Do they look cosmetically different from above..yes..generally the quality of the Doubleshot and dye sub printing is better on some of the higher quality keycaps.  That's not to say GMK or others are perfect...they're not.  But the cleaner lines, the alignment and overall finish tends to be better.  It is noticeable when you see them and more noticeable side by side. 

Feel..
Completely subjective..but the better caps tend to feel a bit more solid.  This isn't necessarily thickness..there are some cheap thick PBT that feel...cheap and they often suffer from other issues.  But regardless, if your preference is for "thinner" caps or ones that have a "cheaper" feel that's fine.  The more expensive caps have a different feel - and for those that prefer that feel, they'll need to spend more.  That "feel" tends to come from what seems like a more expensive process....There are some custom keycaps that I think feel meh but they're expensive because of the colorway and layout support - we don't see keycaps made from some of those makers any longer or not as much anyways...

And as you tend to do this..just because YOU don't feel the difference doesn't mean other people do not.  Great.  You're lucky.  You prefer how cheap keycaps feel = you're lucky.  Sometimes ignorance is bliss.   For me, the feel is noticeably different and while I would much rather pay almost nothing for keycaps, my experience is they don't feel as good. 

Lets also not forget that many of the premium sets have support for other layouts and other options and of course a look/design that is unique.  I will say, the pricing for GMK has gotten out of control.  On the plus side, there are so many GMK sets out there now it is super easy to find something.  On the downside, it is more of a business now than a community project.   

So here's how the price comes about.
Higher Quality Control
Higher Quality manufacturing process.
Lower Quantity = less scale = greater unit price
Higher Margins - I'd imagine there are greater margins there with companies building a premium produce rather than razor thin margins of a much more mass produced product. 

I mean, I get it..you don't like spending a ton of money on stuff...We've had this same discussion about the quality of keyboards where you equate most of it to the switch which is probably why you have your choice of keyboard and keycaps...The fact that you can't tell the difference is just you.  I'm sure you can't tell the difference in the quality of wine either right?  For any enthusiasts hobby there are going to be a good number of people who can see the difference in quality...and some that are just posers..and some that don't see the difference.  Lets face it, the best place to be is where you end up spending the least amount of money and get exactly the same enjoyment, that's just not reality for some. 

[rhubarbpi]

I'm not going to stare and drool at my keyboard all day. I have plenty of nice thick sets that cost me a fraction of what the big names would that look great. Some might not have perfect mold marks beneath, but I'm also not ever looking at the bottoms of the caps either. Unless I want some fun novelty like metal caps on one of my K65s, or something to better match the themes of the case than whatever came on it, I usually leave caps alone. I would also give an exception for the paint on the cheap backlit caps wearing off, but even that has never happened to me. My most-used K70s are shined like a mirror but the legends are still perfect. I have a few sets of PBT double shots I got cheap on Aliexpress for them, but I'm still conflicted on 1) Whether or not I care enough to bother swapping them and 2) Whether or not I'll put up with their texture, since I actually love shined caps.

It's more than that...The more expensive keycaps are more expensive for a reason.  Generally the quality is better and you can tell by touch and sound that they feel better.

How are you going to tell any caps apart from each other at all by feel other than profile, material, and texture? How do we quantify what is and is not high quality? Do I need to buy a $150 set of hunks of plastic to compare against the $40 set of hunks of plastic that cosmetically look no worse from above? What justifies such a disparity in price other than exclusivity/limited production? My cheap shined ABS caps don't feel any better or worse to me than my thick double shot PBT caps. There's a difference in sound, sure, but even that's a subjective preference, just like people obsessing over matte finishes or vice versa, and I can't imagine how that could have anything to do with a $150 set vs a $40 set if they're made of the same material and are of the same thickness.

Have you actually tried some of the more expensive different sets or are you just speculating?  You sound exactly like someone whose actually never owned and used any of the more premium keycaps sets..

But lets break it down..

Do they look cosmetically different from above..yes..generally the quality of the Doubleshot and dye sub printing is better on some of the higher quality keycaps.  That's not to say GMK or others are perfect...they're not.  But the cleaner lines, the alignment and overall finish tends to be better.  It is noticeable when you see them and more noticeable side by side. 

Feel..
Completely subjective..but the better caps tend to feel a bit more solid.  This isn't necessarily thickness..there are some cheap thick PBT that feel...cheap and they often suffer from other issues.  But regardless, if your preference is for "thinner" caps or ones that have a "cheaper" feel that's fine.  The more expensive caps have a different feel - and for those that prefer that feel, they'll need to spend more.  That "feel" tends to come from what seems like a more expensive process....There are some custom keycaps that I think feel meh but they're expensive because of the colorway and layout support - we don't see keycaps made from some of those makers any longer or not as much anyways...

And as you tend to do this..just because YOU don't feel the difference doesn't mean other people do not.  Great.  You're lucky.  You prefer how cheap keycaps feel = you're lucky.  Sometimes ignorance is bliss.   For me, the feel is noticeably different and while I would much rather pay almost nothing for keycaps, my experience is they don't feel as good. 

Lets also not forget that many of the premium sets have support for other layouts and other options and of course a look/design that is unique.  I will say, the pricing for GMK has gotten out of control.  On the plus side, there are so many GMK sets out there now it is super easy to find something.  On the downside, it is more of a business now than a community project.   

So here's how the price comes about.
Higher Quality Control
Higher Quality manufacturing process.
Lower Quantity = less scale = greater unit price
Higher Margins - I'd imagine there are greater margins there with companies building a premium produce rather than razor thin margins of a much more mass produced product. 

I mean, I get it..you don't like spending a ton of money on stuff...We've had this same discussion about the quality of keyboards where you equate most of it to the switch which is probably why you have your choice of keyboard and keycaps...The fact that you can't tell the difference is just you.  I'm sure you can't tell the difference in the quality of wine either right?  For any enthusiasts hobby there are going to be a good number of people who can see the difference in quality...and some that are just posers..and some that don't see the difference.  Lets face it, the best place to be is where you end up spending the least amount of money and get exactly the same enjoyment, that's just not reality for some. 

A higher price does not always mean higher quality - it really comes down to the processes & companies involved with the manufacture to make the price point worthwhile for the consumer.

I've had $130 "boutique, limited, artisan designed" group buy caps I waited 9 months for with worse quality & feel than a $45 set of Tai Haos I got in 2 days.
On the flip side, I've also had $130 sets that are absolutely exemplary & beyond reproach in terms of material quality, texture, design etc.

I think that it just speaks to how Plastics & Mold processes/machines add a further variable on the consistency & feel of caps, and makes them a different kettle of fish than other bespoke, handmade/limited items. 

The same "smaller batch is better" mentality can't really be equated here, at least in my opinion.
It really comes down to the details of the product & who is involved.




 

[Polymer]

A higher price does not always mean higher quality - it really comes down to the processes & companies involved with the manufacture to make the price point worthwhile for the consumer.

I've had $130 "boutique, limited, artisan designed" group buy caps I waited 9 months for with worse quality & feel than a $45 set of Tai Haos I got in 2 days.
On the flip side, I've also had $130 sets that are absolutely exemplary & beyond reproach in terms of material quality, texture, design etc.

I think that it just speaks to how Plastics & Mold processes/machines add a further variable on the consistency & feel of caps, and makes them a different kettle of fish than other bespoke, handmade/limited items. 

The same "smaller batch is better" mentality can't really be equated here, at least in my opinion.
It really comes down to the details of the product & who is involved.

Of course more expensive doesn't always mean better...but generally it does. 
I also didn't say smaller batch is always better...Smaller batch has a greater cost basis than larger batches.  That is a cost not going towards quality, it is going towards lack of scale.  Especially with boutique items, you run the risk of just poor craftsmanship or you might end up getting more time/care that is disproportionately good for the price.

For enthusiasts, you're not going to get away with expensive junk...the marketing falls away (not that it even really exists for keyboard stuff) and the goods are analyzed to the Nth degree...Goods that are overpriced for what they are will find fewer customers...

We won't even touch on scarcity..but if we're talking GMK..they're not scarce...maybe a specific colorway is harder to find now but it is super easy to get a set of GMK keycaps nowadays, they're far from scarce...

[rhubarbpi]

A higher price does not always mean higher quality - it really comes down to the processes & companies involved with the manufacture to make the price point worthwhile for the consumer.

I've had $130 "boutique, limited, artisan designed" group buy caps I waited 9 months for with worse quality & feel than a $45 set of Tai Haos I got in 2 days.
On the flip side, I've also had $130 sets that are absolutely exemplary & beyond reproach in terms of material quality, texture, design etc.

I think that it just speaks to how Plastics & Mold processes/machines add a further variable on the consistency & feel of caps, and makes them a different kettle of fish than other bespoke, handmade/limited items. 

The same "smaller batch is better" mentality can't really be equated here, at least in my opinion.
It really comes down to the details of the product & who is involved.

Of course more expensive doesn't always mean better...but generally it does. 
I also didn't say smaller batch is always better...Smaller batch has a greater cost basis than larger batches.  That is a cost not going towards quality, it is going towards lack of scale.  Especially with boutique items, you run the risk of just poor craftsmanship or you might end up getting more time/care that is disproportionately good for the price.

For enthusiasts, you're not going to get away with expensive junk...the marketing falls away (not that it even really exists for keyboard stuff) and the goods are analyzed to the Nth degree...Goods that are overpriced for what they are will find fewer customers...

We won't even touch on scarcity..but if we're talking GMK..they're not scarce...maybe a specific colorway is harder to find now but it is super easy to get a set of GMK keycaps nowadays, they're far from scarce...

Sure? but the keycap set in question *was* an enthusiast group by - the quality & consistency exclaimed in the descriptions DID NOT come to pass.  To be fair, the set didn't get a Rd2/V2 - over quality control - but still. 

I can't really agree that you get what you pay for in the keycap world.
My experience buying the $100 + sets (8-9 different off the shelf sets/group bys over 2 years) has been mixed and shied me away from getting more sets in the future with the same price range.
The highest of high quality with some yet the most scattershot of material consistency & lower quality printing methods & defects with others.
That does speak to scale like you mention, but with that kind of money, the quality ratio average should be 100% -  not 78%.

GMK's are a bit on their own island in terms of methods & quality control, usually fairly high quality - from my experience.

Honestly, as much as it makes boutique set owners ears burn, the most consistent set I have is the Tai Hao set.  Mass produced & cheap, sure, but the quality, consistency, material, texture - equals ALL of the bespoke sets I own. Maybe doesn't BEST them, this is where design & slightly highter materials factors in - but equals them.

Also it comes down to what you focus on.  At this point I'm much more of a switch hound & many of my keyboard decisions are based around them, not the keycaps really anymore.

Again all in my opinion 

[Polymer]

Sure? but the keycap set in question *was* an enthusiast group by - the quality & consistency exclaimed in the descriptions DID NOT come to pass.  To be fair, the set didn't get a Rd2/V2 - over quality control - but still. 

And as we discussed, that's going to happen.  With keycaps they're not making it themselves and frankly, most people are out of their depth when it comes to dealing with vendors.  In a more general sense, lots of things made by enthusiasts where they control what is going on, is often made with a very high level of care. 

I can't really agree that you get what you pay for in the keycap world.
My experience buying the $100 + sets (8-9 different off the shelf sets/group bys over 2 years) has been mixed and shied me away from getting more sets in the future with the same price range.
The highest of high quality with some yet the most scattershot of material consistency & lower quality printing methods & defects with others.
That does speak to scale like you mention, but with that kind of money, the quality ratio average should be 100% -  not 78%.

GMK's are a bit on their own island in terms of methods & quality control, usually fairly high quality - from my experience.

Which sets are you thinking of?  For me I'm thinking of GMK, BSP, OG Cherry PBT....There are a few artsy based ones that are interesting but expecting lesser quality.    All of these are better than Tai Hao without question. 

Honestly, as much as it makes boutique set owners ears burn, the most consistent set I have is the Tai Hao set.  Mass produced & cheap, sure, but the quality, consistency, material, texture - equals ALL of the bespoke sets I own. Maybe doesn't BEST them, this is where design & slightly highter materials factors in - but equals them.

They're consistent..but to me they're very average.  I think they're good value though.  So you own GMK and you think they're on par? 

[treeleaf64]

Best keyboards / keycaps have rigorous quality control, as well as good design. If something is designed by someone who knows what they're doing, and works in conjunction with a manufacturer who knows what they're doing, as well as rigorously QCing, you can expect a good product for your money.