Author Topic: Recommend a portable keyboard for my wife: a writer with carpal tunnel  (Read 5991 times)

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Offline disperse

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My wife is a writer who suffers from wrist pain from typing.  She types very hard, bottoms out the keys, and ends up wearing off the printing on her vowels on her keyboards. 

I'd like to get her a compact keyboard she can take with her to the cafe and use in addition to her laptop or tablet.

She has tried my Das Keyboard with MX Blues and doesn't like how it feels.  She is used to the chiclet style scissor switch keys of her laptop. I'm looking for something that is going to be easier on her wrists and perhaps help her type with a lighter touch. It can't be too loud if she is going to be using it in public places.

I was thinking about the Matias Quiet Pro (http://www.matias.ca/miniquietpro/pc/) but am not sure how it is ergonomically.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Mark.

Offline CPTBadAss

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The new Matias Ergo board with their quiet switches or an ErgoDox with 45g Clears or 45g lubed linears?

Wait...what do you mean by lighter touch? The switches need to be heavier or lighter?

Edit: Rereading your OP, maybe you want heavier switches so Stock Blacks or Clears might be good. And definitely get Doubleshot ABS or PBT keycaps.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 May 2014, 10:07:24 by CPTBadAss »

Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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I'm not sure I have a definitive answer, but I thought I'd share my experience and hope it can provide some help.

I have a Poker II with brown MX switches and blue WASD o-rings. My main concern was typing noise. I can say that my keyboard is slightly more silent than the rubber dome dell keyboards at my school.

The board is a dream to type on. The thick PBT caps really makes a huge difference. It really feels so nice, but after a while, I've gotten some pain in my wrists and shoulders, which I haven't experienced before.

I've gotten a wrist rest, which has helped, but I'm not sure it's a complete fix. I would love to learn more about what might be causing the pain.
Perhaps it's the metal plate as I've never had that before, but perhaps the wrist rest isn't tall enough to provide enough support.

I hope you can find something that works. I'm eager to learn what that might be.

Good luck.

Offline CPTBadAss

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I've gotten a wrist rest, which has helped, but I'm not sure it's a complete fix. But perhaps the wrist rest isn't tall enough to provide enough support.

I've found if you're using just a normal gel wrist rest, if you stack two on top of each other, it's the proper height for my palms to be on.

I would love to learn more about what might be causing the pain. .

A lot of pain issues are related to ergonomics: posture, height of your desk and keyboard, angle of the keyboard, how you're resting you hands/wrists. I think if you asked for some help in the ergonomic subforum (this subforum), you could get the knowledge you're looking for. :)

Offline vivalarevolución

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Tough call.  There are not too many small, transportable ergonomic options out there, and finding them with heavier switches is even less available.  Perhaps you could try the Truly Ergonomic, but that is only available in MX Brown or Blue.

https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php

Those Matias boards are slightly heavier than the lighter Cherry switches, but they do not have any ergonomic shape.  The Matias Ergo Pro has not been released yet, so we will see with that one.
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Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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Just after writing this last post, I think I've been able to discover what my problem is.

I've put a stack of ~20 paper manila folders under my wrist rest and put the front half ( the side closest me ) of the keyboard on the edge of this stack of paper. This has changed the angle of the board, so that the keys are not sloped in any angle, but remain completely flat. The wrist rest is also more in line with the height of the keys now. This already seems to have helped a great deal and now I'm looking for a case for my Poker II that will lower its height and straighten the angle.

Does anybody know if such a case exists for the Poker II, or even if there is any room inside the original case that will allow the overall height to be lowered?

Offline CPTBadAss

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The new Tex cases for the Poker 2 seem really flat. But I've only seen pictures of them, and not seen one in real life.

Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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They really do. Seems like I could really need one of those.

I also find that the stock caps are a bit too high for my liking, but I really love the thickness of them. I tried some SP DSA's and even though they were PBT, they really felt horrible to type on.

Do you know if there are any thick, low profile PBT caps out there? Preferably with a flat profile.

Offline Findecanor

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Goldtouch Go!2 Wireless. Standard QWERTY layout. Works with PC and Mac. Bluetooth, so it should work with tablets. Foldable. Scissor-switches.

The big feature of the Goldtouch keyboards is that they are split into a half for each hand, with a lockable ball-hinge. The hinge allows the halves to be angled against one-another in various ways and locked into position.
Angling the keyboard halves ("tenting") should be easier on the wrists.

There are also larger, wired desktop versions.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 May 2014, 12:19:51 by Findecanor »

Offline CPTBadAss

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Do you know if there are any thick, low profile PBT caps out there? Preferably with a flat profile.

Unfortunately I think there's only one set that will fit this qualification: the stock keycaps from a Leopold FC700R. And I'm not 100% sure if the spacebar will fit your Poker 2. I don't think I tried those caps on any other keyboard before I sold my set.

You may like the Cherry profile that the Vortex doubleshot PBT caps have at MechanicalKeyboards.com. Personally if I have to pick a PBT set of caps, I like the BSP keycaps (Cherry PBT keycaps). The keycaps from say a Cherry MY7000 or another Cherry board, which have lasered PBT, may also suit you.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 May 2014, 12:19:14 by CPTBadAss »

Offline uzoc

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You can try the Microsoft Arc Wireless keyboard (my everyday keyboard):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Microsoft-Arc-Wireless-Keyboard-w-Transceiver-J5D-00001-LIGHT-USE-/171322026962?pt=Keyboard_Mice_Bundles&hash=item27e396abd2
It is lightly curved and feels more natural that any other keyboard I tried.
It has the lightest and shortest key travel.
P.S. if you like it, definitely get the Large Lettering stickers: http://www.ebay.com/itm/110573977268?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
 

Offline disperse

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Hmm, lots of recommendations for many different keyboard types.  Could anyone who has experienced wrist pain help narrow it down?

Also, does anyone bottom out the keys when they type?  For you, what switch type is most comfortable: scissor switches, linear (black, red), bump (brown), click (blue), or other? 

Offline CPTBadAss

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I've had wrist pains before I fixed my setup which works nicely for me. I'm currently just using normal keyboards, no ergonomic shapes, but I liked the Ergodox best from all the ergo boards available. I think the TECK looks nice too but i haven't tried it at work.

I use two gel wristrest stacked on top of each other and I don't prop the legs up on keyboards. This places my hands nicely. And I also have my chair arms and desk height adjusted so that my arms sit at a proper angle. I have this at home and at work.

I like medium weight to heavy MX switches. I always bottom out on my switches, and for pure typing/writing, I like MX Greens or 65g MX Blues. Stock Blues are nice as well and I use them at work. It's weird because I tried gaming on my MX Green board and it was too heavy but I can type for hours at it.

I also really like my buckling spring boards for typing. But that's probably too loud for public/office use.

I should also say I'm not *too* experienced with ergonomic keyboards other than the Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 and a bit with the Ergodox.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 May 2014, 13:26:55 by CPTBadAss »

Offline hjkl_over_wasd

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I believe the angle of the keyboard is of importance to prevent wrist strain. To my experience, the keys should be laid out in a flat angle so that the angle of your hands remain more or less flat and not bent backwards, like you get when using most keyboard which are angled towards you, like an upwards leading staircase.

I'm still trying to figure this out for myself, so your mileage might vary. Your girlfriend could try it out for herself and see if it helps.

Offline hoggy

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A bit out of the scope, but take a look at the kinesis advantage.  Available in brown or reds.  It has a beep option that sounds when the key activates (about half way down), that's incredibly useful when trying to learn not to bottom out.  Someone here (I could be wrong, but I think it was Soarer or Lanx) modified their ergodox to include a buzzer.  The beep isn't all that loud so it should be in an office or coffee shop.

It's a bit bigger than a compact, but it is lightweight, and the ergonomics are great for wrist problems.  Kinesis offer a 60 day return period...
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline vivalarevolución

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Hmm, lots of recommendations for many different keyboard types.  Could anyone who has experienced wrist pain help narrow it down?

Also, does anyone bottom out the keys when they type?  For you, what switch type is most comfortable: scissor switches, linear (black, red), bump (brown), click (blue), or other?

You might want to change your mouse because I found that to be a large source of my wrist/finger pain.  Get an ergonomic mouse or maybe something with a large DPI that minimizes movements.

The comfort of the switch will depend on the user.  For your partner, who seems to bottom out on lighter switches, the heavier switches like Cherry Black or Clear or Green might be best.  Again, finding those in an ergonomic keyboard will be difficult, unless you buy a Maltron or build your own Ergodox.
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Offline disperse

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Although I like the switch options of the Truly Ergonomic, I'm leaning toward the Goldtouch Wireless because I think I can convince my wife to fold it up and put it in her bag to take with her.  How sturdy is it once it is locked in place?  I'm concerned that her heavy typing will cause it to collapse.  Also, how do the scissor switches compare to, say, the Macbook Pro?   (The best scissor-switch keyboard I've used.)

Goldtouch Go!2 Wireless. Standard QWERTY layout. Works with PC and Mac. Bluetooth, so it should work with tablets. Foldable. Scissor-switches.

The big feature of the Goldtouch keyboards is that they are split into a half for each hand, with a lockable ball-hinge. The hinge allows the halves to be angled against one-another in various ways and locked into position.
Angling the keyboard halves ("tenting") should be easier on the wrists.

There are also larger, wired desktop versions.

Offline disperse

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In my experience, using a wrist rest causes my wrists to hurt more than if I concentrate on keeping my wrists elevated.  A keyboard tray is necessary to put the keyboard at the proper height so I'm not resting my wrists or straining to keep them elevated.

I'm not sure I have a definitive answer, but I thought I'd share my experience and hope it can provide some help.

I have a Poker II with brown MX switches and blue WASD o-rings. My main concern was typing noise. I can say that my keyboard is slightly more silent than the rubber dome dell keyboards at my school.

The board is a dream to type on. The thick PBT caps really makes a huge difference. It really feels so nice, but after a while, I've gotten some pain in my wrists and shoulders, which I haven't experienced before.

I've gotten a wrist rest, which has helped, but I'm not sure it's a complete fix. I would love to learn more about what might be causing the pain.
Perhaps it's the metal plate as I've never had that before, but perhaps the wrist rest isn't tall enough to provide enough support.

I hope you can find something that works. I'm eager to learn what that might be.

Good luck.

Offline disperse

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I'm sure it would be a great option but I don't think I could convince her to carry it around with her.  If she likes the portable keyboard I'll try and get her something more ergonomic for home use.

A bit out of the scope, but take a look at the kinesis advantage.  Available in brown or reds.  It has a beep option that sounds when the key activates (about half way down), that's incredibly useful when trying to learn not to bottom out.  Someone here (I could be wrong, but I think it was Soarer or Lanx) modified their ergodox to include a buzzer.  The beep isn't all that loud so it should be in an office or coffee shop.

It's a bit bigger than a compact, but it is lightweight, and the ergonomics are great for wrist problems.  Kinesis offer a 60 day return period...

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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The main keyboard that comes to mind is the Goldtouch you're considering. Most other keyboards that I would call ergonomic require USB and wouldn't work with a tablet. It sounds like your wife is a little resistant to change. Going with something that resembles what she is used to might be the best option.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 May 2014, 19:33:42 by SonOfSonOfSpock »

Offline disperse

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Is this true?  I was under the impression that most tablets could be connected to a USB keyboard fairly easily.  We have a Galaxy Tab 2.

The main keyboard that comes to mind is the Goldtouch you're considering. Most other keyboards that I would call ergonomic require USB and wouldn't work with a tablet. It sounds like your wife is a little resistant to change. Going with something that resembles what she is used to might be the best option.

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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I stand corrected, apparently some tablets can use usb keyboards. I assumed they could only do bluetooth. Although, googling for things reveals it's not a trivial thing to just plug in a keyboard. It seems support varies depending on the device.

Offline davkol

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TypeMatrix 2030.

It has the best scissor switches I've ever used. By far. Spill-proof and almost silent with a skin (also quite stiff then, which might be a good thing in this context).

The layout removes lots of fatigue out of pinkies, and so does the matrix layout. The one-column separation is surprisingly helpful and even if you don't get this keyboard for her, consider a similar thing (wide mod) on traditional layout (ISO if possible).

At last but not least, it's about as wide as a 12" laptop (fits on top of the built-in keyboard fine), relatively thin and quite durable (especially with a skin on).

Offline EvillePanda

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The Truly Ergonomic is also fairly heavy.  And the palm/wrist wrest is rather crap in my opinion.
Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline vivalarevolución

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Goldtouch tends to have lighter rubber switches, at least the wired version.  The travel Goldtouch boards, I cannot say.
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Offline Lanx

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Portable ergo? Find someway to get ergodox

2nd option i would begrudgingly rec truley ergonomic

Offline JonPB

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Re: Recommend a portable keyboard for my wife: a writer with carpal tunnel
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 22 June 2014, 18:46:25 »
Assuming that changing her typing style is out of the question, I'd recommend looking at cushioning rather than the keyboards themselves. It sounds like she's having the same problems I had when I moved from a mechanical typewriter to an electronic keyboard: where once high pressure was both necessary and comfortable, it now becomes neither. The forces used to push the keys aren't absorbed by the machine, so the pressures causes stress, inflamation, and pain.

My first step would be to put cushioning under the keyboard. The easiest way to do this would be with a standard keyboard placed on the lap, where the legs act as the cushion. This allows the keyboard to sink, absorbing excess pressure. Alternatively, a pillow or two wrist-rests could be placed under the keyboard. With a laptop, this might make the screen shake too much, but this can be avoided with a cheap external keyboard.

(Windows tablets, by the way, tend to be compatible with standard USB devices like keyboards. I can't say I'm happy with Windows 8.1, though: the "apps" environment crashes with startling reliability. Desktop apps work fine, though, if slowly with my Thinkpad Tablet 2. The problem with tablets is finding a stand that works well for keyboarding; I mostly use mine for handwriting and content consumption.)

I wouldn't recommend an ergonomic keyboard to someone unless they were willing to adjust how they type. If she's willing to adjust how she types, then using less pressure is the first step, not a new keyboard.

As far as actual keyboard hardware goes, though, I couldn't be happier with my Cherry clears. They have a clean break, like a good scissor, but then they have a nice amount of resistance that makes it easy to learn how much pressure is necessary to actuate the switch without bottoming out. They don't make much noise, either.

Of course, it could be more related to the angle of her wrists when she types, but that requires her to have more awareness of her environment, which isn't available when going to a coffee shop to write. (I'm a writer myself, so I understand the coffee-shop aspect of things.) If she's willing to submit to our analysis, I'd ask you to take a picture of her forearms and hands on the keyboard while she's typing, which might help us say "the keyboard should be closer/further and higher/lower."

Finally, stretching the wrists intermittently during long bouts of typing is rather effective at improving comfort. Hold one arm out straight, then use the other hand to alternately pull back on the fingers when the hand is up and palm out, and then to pull back on the knuckles when the hand is down and palm in. Do the other hand the same way. Rotate each hand in figure eights. Push and pull the thumb, too. Repeat as feels good. It may look silly, but it can work wonders.

Cheers,
Jon

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Recommend a portable keyboard for my wife: a writer with carpal tunnel
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 22 June 2014, 21:13:30 »
Her style is the problem..

some form of it will likely persist switching to ANY keyboard.. even ergonomic ones.


she needs to retrain her hands..


I had a piano student that did something like this....


to un-train his forceful keystrokes..  I had him do scales slowly without making a sound.

so he'd play, but press it slowly and so lightly (all the way down) that no sound comes out.




It's important that when you try to retrain..  You're mindful of how tense your hand is...


if you can film your wife typing..  we can probably suggest corrections with more detail..

Offline Lammie

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Re: Recommend a portable keyboard for my wife: a writer with carpal tunnel
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 28 June 2014, 13:28:16 »
Topre 45g? These are really light and suitable for writers.
Topre Realforce 55g
Topre Leopold FC660C 45g
Matias Quiet Pro Mini
Cherry ML G84-4100LPAUS
Cherry MX Green QFTK
Model M Unicomp 103

Offline Thanatermesis

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Re: Recommend a portable keyboard for my wife: a writer with carpal tunnel
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 24 July 2014, 03:50:59 »
From experience with wrist pain I can tell you some results that I have experienced so far:
- 50% of the pain was caused by the mouse, even if I dont use it much, made a look to those "delux" models from dealextreme (got one and very happy/improved here)
- using a default ergodox improved a lot the pain, almost gone, because of the separated shape
- don't use some strange layouts that makes you press two keys at the same time for the same hand, this is one of the biggest pain factors
- avoid using the "small finger" as much as you can
- practice with some keyboard typing application slowly, in order to improve your clumsy typing got after the years (this can sounds noobish but it really improves your pain)

I personally just finished to make my own ergodox, with a more "ergonomic shape" as you can see here: 

Offline conandy

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Re: Recommend a portable keyboard for my wife: a writer with carpal tunnel
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 00:24:55 »
I'll add my 2 cents. 

Although I haven't actually used it, I have a scrap keyboard with Cherry MX clears that I love the feel of.  Going from MX Browns to Clears is sweet because you get a little extra resistance in the springs, still feel that tactile bump, but I found that more often than not (purely while playing with it), I rarely bottomed out the keys as much as I do with browns.  Adding o-rings might lower the sound quite a bit by reducing bottoming out.  Food for thought. 

Also, I agree with other posts here in that she really needs to try to retrain her hands if she is pounding the keyboard that hard. 

I am now using a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard.  It isn't a perfect keyboard, but it is fairly portable (small form factor, but heavy).  Neither the Cherry MX Browns or Blues that are standard options, though, are going to be quiet in a public setting.  Browns are loud compared to cheap rubber domes, but Blues are LOUD.  I love the sound of Blues, but they aren't for everyone, or public places. 

A columnar matrix keyboard like a TEK, or an Ergodox, or the Axios, etc. is going to require her to retrain her hands.  It is not hard, but she has to be willing.  It took me a week of casual use to get sort of used to it.  Maybe a month before I was fully comfortable.  I don't type all day or for great lengths of time, though.  For a power typist, training would be much faster. 

If I tried to push my keyboard on my wife, she'd kill me.  Keeps her off my computer, though.   ;D

I have heard good things about the Typematrix, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.  Compact, decent switches, etc.  But again, as a matrix layout, she'll have to do some retraining of her hands.  I was very close to buying one of those, but got an ebay bargain on the TEK first. 

Having moved from a standard keyboard to a matrix keyboard, I can tell you that the reduced finger movement does help let you relax and use less force after you get used to it.  There is more tendency to pound the keys if you have to lift your hand and move it to the key than if it is within reach of the finger naturally.  I haven't tested by any means and have no scientific verification, but I'd say my keypress force is maybe 10 to 20%% less on average (not for every keystroke, obviously) since moving to the TEK.  Maybe it's my imagination, but I feel like I pound them less now. 

Hope this helps.