Author Topic: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions  (Read 3961 times)

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Offline Melvang

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Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 04:15:06 »
Felt like posting this as the topic has had my interest for a while. But have always packed the cash flow for a good setup. 

My setup is not currently in my living room, but will hopefully be there this weekend.  It isn't anything great overall, but in my opinion has great band for the buck.  It simply consists of my PS3 coupled to my Logitech Z-5500 speakers.  My current living room does not allow me to separate the front channels from the TV nor is there room in my TV stand.  So I am building some brackets to mount the speakers to that will attach to the VESA mount in the back of the TV.  My Wii sensor bar will also sit in front of the center channel on top of the TV.

Now for a couple of my questions.  The stock speaker wire that came with the Logitech is cheap plain 18 AWG wire.  I have read of people tweaking the twist rates of CAT5 cable and braiding them to make surprisingly good sounding cables.  Could I do the same with any ordinary solid core small gauge wire?

Also, at some point in the nearish future, I would like to upgrade the front and center channel speakers to something with a bit more substance.  The satilites on that system are only 3.5 inch drivers.  I was thinking of stepping up to somewhere in the 5 to 6 inch range.  I would also ideally want these to still run of the Logitech amp. From my understanding and brief Internet sleuthing, this system has a fixed built in crossover at 120 hz. While the sats can only handle down to about 150.  As you can see this leaves a good sized gap and a lack in the midrange.  Help here would be appreciated, a at is very much a concern as I currently have 3 car payments for 2 cars for the next 10 months or so.
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Offline Spopepro

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 10:03:41 »
Now for a couple of my questions.  The stock speaker wire that came with the Logitech is cheap plain 18 AWG wire.  I have read of people tweaking the twist rates of CAT5 cable and braiding them to make surprisingly good sounding cables.  Could I do the same with any ordinary solid core small gauge wire?
Not really. The TNT-Audio chap has some good explanations around multi-core audio cabling, what engineering issues each design attempts to solve, and how to do it. Remember that the only parameters that matter for a signal cable are resistance, capacitance, and inductance--interference rejection is also helpful, but matters little for speaker cables in most instances.  Solid core cat 5 (and iirc it has to be solid core, which is harder to find these days) has some specific properties that are attractive. But honestly, I have a home system that wasn't cheap, took me a lot of time, and I use 22ga solid core speaker cable. It works just fine in my low wattage system where the resistance of the cable doesn't matter. Your speaker cable is fine, and unless you're itching for a project, I'd spend the efforts elsewhere.

Quote
Also, at some point in the nearish future, I would like to upgrade the front and center channel speakers to something with a bit more substance.  The satilites on that system are only 3.5 inch drivers.  I was thinking of stepping up to somewhere in the 5 to 6 inch range.  I would also ideally want these to still run of the Logitech amp. From my understanding and brief Internet sleuthing, this system has a fixed built in crossover at 120 hz. While the sats can only handle down to about 150.  As you can see this leaves a good sized gap and a lack in the midrange.  Help here would be appreciated, a at is very much a concern as I currently have 3 car payments for 2 cars for the next 10 months or so.

Like here! So there not enough information to go on still. Is the crossover a 12db/oct butterworth? A corrected 24db/oct linkwitz? (It's probably the former). What is the actual frequency response of the front speakers? The driver size doesn't really mean much. My speakers have a response of roughly 50-16k... From 4" paper drivers. They are full range fostex mounted in a back loaded horn (a mass loaded quadratic taper quarter wave tube for the pedants). What sort of power and impedance are you pulling from the amp?

Unless you wish to make a hobby of it, at which point you can build something *perfect*, my general recommendation is the pioneer bs22 speakers. They were a Best Buy thing for a while, but I think there's more vendors now. Andrew Jones designed them and they are a shining example of a really good engineer doing a really, really good job designing to all the parameters given (he talks about how he at one point had to back and redesign the shape, because the boxes wouldn't fit perfectly in the shipping container). They are about $100 and you can't do better unless you DIY, or go much more expensive. They also generally behave well in most systems. They do go down pretty low, which could cause some issues in your system, but then again maybe they will work. Multi-channel systems can be challenging to tune. If you want to diy, well, then we can have a longer discussion...

Offline Melvang

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 13:03:05 »
Thanks for the reply.   A good option of what you said about the crossover went right over my head.  I know very little about this stuff as you can see from the fact that I still use these Logitechs.  But they do sound better than the TV speakers. 

I th I I am going to skip upgrading the sats until I am Re at for the whole system upgrade.

My concern about the speaker cables pay planned route for them will have them running directly on top of a fluorescent light fixture with 4 bulbs.  Would I be better running the cables through a piece of steel conduit or copper pipe for at least this short run?
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Offline kingpilcrow

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 13:13:19 »
Just got an Amazon Echo for $120!

Offline Spopepro

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 13:25:09 »
Usually (usually...) the interference from home electronics isn't enough to mess with the signal going to speakers. Say you have a 25W per channel 8ohm amplifier. That's around 13V RMS when at full amplitude.  Interference is usually in the millivolt range, and with standard sensitivity speakers you won't be able to hear it. Well, maybe you could hear it when no sound is playing and you stick your ear in your speaker. EMI is way more critical to avoid before the amplification stages because then that small signal gets amplified also. But probably the number one cause of bad interference isn't emi picked up on cables, but noise on the mains, and in the PSU. Especially if your equipment has a linear power supply (but yours is probably switching).

tl;dr: don't worry about it for speaker cable unless you're using powered monitors.

If you are worried, and you want to run cable once because it's a complex install that isn't easily tweaked, then shielding can be a good idea. You could either use sheilded cable (sheilded microphone cable is really good here) or put wire in some other conductive shield like you mentioned. Remember that for it to be effective one side (and *only* one side) needs to be tied to ground. Standard practice is usually to do this on the upstream side.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 10 August 2016, 03:31:36 »
There's no need for expensive cables..



Cat 5.. well..... there is the shielding already done for you on STP, but the copper is not as high gauge as typical speaker wires, and if you get solid copper, it's not going to be easily flexible.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 11 August 2016, 17:30:43 »

if you get solid copper, it's not going to be easily flexible.

You don't want solid wire for speakers. Studies have shown that braided wire is better, the more smaller wires with more surface area the better. Somehow the audio signals are carried better on the surface of the conductors than through the cores, unlike just pure-power-style raw electricity.

18 gauge lamp cord is probably good enough for most speaker applications, unless you are getting into high-end stuff. I have some massive Monster Cable but only because I have found it on sale a couple of times at deep discount.

It probably is worth getting high-end connectors to go between your components, and better thrift stores often have a bunch of nice wires hanging on the back wall at very cheap prices.
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Offline OfTheWild

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 11 August 2016, 17:46:25 »
I started with excessive home theater setups, then reduced to a B&O BeoSound 8, and now even that doesn't ever get used and we just use a Jambox for background music at parties or at dinner.
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Offline Spopepro

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 11 August 2016, 17:52:11 »

if you get solid copper, it's not going to be easily flexible.

You don't want solid wire for speakers. Studies have shown that braided wire is better, the more smaller wires with more surface area the better. Somehow the audio signals are carried better on the surface of the conductors than through the cores, unlike just pure-power-style raw electricity.

18 gauge lamp cord is probably good enough for most speaker applications, unless you are getting into high-end stuff. I have some massive Monster Cable but only because I have found it on sale a couple of times at deep discount.

It probably is worth getting high-end connectors to go between your components, and better thrift stores often have a bunch of nice wires hanging on the back wall at very cheap prices.

Sure, if you're hearing radio waves...

The skin effect is the principle for which you speak of, and yes, alternating current travels more freely along the surface of conductors than the middle. There's formulae, and I'd punch them out, but I'm on a phone and this forum doesn't accept \LaTeX markup anyway. But you can find that for copper the skin depth of a 20kHz signal is 461um, and 18ga copper is about 1mm in diameter, so you're only losing 78um of the center, and that's only at the highest theoretically noticeable frequency (I can only hear up to 8kHz or so). The skin depth of Middle C (261.6Hz) is 4mm, or the diameter of 0ga solid wire. Skin effect is not a factor at audio frequencies with standard equipment. And there are real benefits with solid wire due to capacitance and impedance.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 11 August 2016, 17:55:06 »

and now even that doesn't ever get used

Too true.

I have 3 separate nice mid-high-end vintage 1970s-1980s stereo setups (receiver (or amp + tuner), turntable, CD player, speakers (and a nice working cassette deck, somewhere). One in my office tied into my computer, one in the living room with the TV, and one in the basement.

But realistically, I spent at least a decade completely digitizing/ripping/downloading my entire music collection so that it is now roughly 300GB+ on a hard drive, and I listen to almost everything directly out of my computer.

I still prefer the vinyl/analog sound, but the "modern" way is just too convenient .....

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Offline kekman

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 15 August 2016, 06:31:46 »
headphone stuff: anedio d1 dac/amp and beyer dt990

currently lending out my old dac and q701 to a friend

speakers are orpheus aurora 3 gen 2 or whichever one it was i've long forgotten, bedroom has terrible acoustics (small space, angled ceiling) so i don't really use them. running some vintage denon gear with it, denon dcd-1460 cd player and pma-925r stereo amp

overall very pleased with my setup, however looking to upgrade headphones and that will probably be it for at least another half decade or when something breaks.

Offline TacticalCoder

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 19 August 2016, 12:11:53 »
Usually (usually...) the interference from home electronics isn't enough to mess with the signal going to speakers

I love listening to music that sounds good to my ears but I understand nothing about ohms / impedance / EMI / etc.  :(

My setup (stereo only, no home cinema): source (MacMini dedicated to playing music only, typically FLAC or mp3 and some ogg files) using a digital connection to a Cambridge Audio DACMagic then going to a Cambridge Audio poweramp I bought used (Azur 640A if I remember the ref correctly). Then there are braided cables going to the floorstanding loudspeakers (big living room): a pair of DALI Zensor 7 (got at a bargain price when a shop that was closing doors for good was liquidating its stock... They're "6 ohms" but I don't know if it's "better" or "worse" than 4 or 8 ohms not what it means for my poweramp, I'm really clueless).


I'm really clueless when it comes to audio but all I know is it sounds good and very "clear" (especially compared to the setup I had previously). Listening position is kinda important but I don't mind: I've got my favorite spot in the living room to listen to music  :)
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 August 2016, 12:27:34 by TacticalCoder »
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Offline Melvang

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Re: Home Audio Setups post what you have and ask questions
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 19 August 2016, 16:10:30 »
So for FM radio, what would theoretically give the best audio?

Standard FM transmission, I am fairly close to the stations center of broadcast range and the advertise that they broadcast from the 5th largest tower in the USA at 1800'.
Tune in all in Android
Tune In on PS3
Radio stations own app
Webstream from stations website via Asus laptop out headphones plug to audio system
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