Author Topic: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys  (Read 7720 times)

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Offline derezzed

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I’m a programmer and I love typing.  Over several years, I’ve casually and sporadically searched for ways to improve my typing experience.   I abandoned the flat keyboard layout years ago in favor of the Logitech Wave (aka K350) with its curved layout.  I also switched to Dvorak for a few weeks and gave it up but I’m considering going back to it.  Having developed wrist and finger joint issues, I’ve gone in search of a better keyboard, and that led me to GeekHack.  I’ve been lurking here for a while and finally created an account to improve my ability to search the forum.  Initially, my research led me to believe that the Ergodox keyboard with Cherry MX Brown switches, o-rings, and DCS keycaps would be a good option for me.  I would try Blues but I think my officemates would kill me (maybe I could get away with Blues and o-rings).  Since then, I’ve discovered the Nexus and Axios keyboards and have become more interested in those models. 

Until recently, I’ve never considered spending more than $60 for a keyboard.  Now, I’m looking at keyboards that approach $300.  The problem, aside from price, is that those keyboards don’t exist yet.  I may have to wait 6 months to a year or longer before buying one of these keyboards.

Now, I’m thinking about getting an interim keyboard to use until I can get something like the Ergodox.  But, is there any benefit to be gained from switching from a curved, staggered layout with rubber dome switches to a flat, staggered layout with mechanical switches?  The keys may be better but they will still be staggered and I would have to bend my wrists in more to use it.  Will I be giving up more than I gain? 

If money was no object, I’d probably have a ridiculously large collection of keyboards.  Right now, I can justify spending $100 at most on a new keyboard.  Can anyone recommend a keyboard for a person with finger and wrist issues at this price point, or am I better off saving my money and waiting until I can get an Ergodox or one of its variants?  Also, those 60% keyboards have caught my eye.  I’m tempted to get one for home if the opportunity presents itself, as I primarily use my keyboard for gaming at home.  To the people who have joint issues, can you get by with a flat, staggered keyboard for casual use and gaming? 

Regarding some of the alternatives, I’ve briefly tried the Microsoft Natural 4000 and Microsoft Sculpt keyboards at a local electronics store and didn’t care for them.  I also tried a Razer keyboard that had the equivalent of Cherry MX Blue switches and loved the feel of the key action.  However, it had a straight, staggered layout.  I’m aware of the Freestyle 2, but it’s got a staggered layout and dome switches.   Other keyboards (in the sub $200 range) I’ve looked into are the: DataDesk UPC5000, Adesso Tru-From 150, Goldtouch v2, Perixx split keyboard, and Fellowes split keyboard.

Like I said, I’ve been here a while, but information is not always easy to find here, so I apologize if this topic has been covered before.   

tl;dr:  subject line

Offline jacobolus

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Some split mechanical keyboards like the ones you mention near the end show up on ebay fairly regularly.

Where do you live? If you’re a professional programmer, it shouldn’t be too hard to justify buying a new mechanical keyboard; in the SF Bay Area e.g. the lowest programmer salaries I know of are on order $80k/year, and that’s for people working for startups and getting piles of stock compensation. For literally the most important tool for your job, spend the money and consider it a business expense.
« Last Edit: Fri, 28 November 2014, 23:13:10 by jacobolus »

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Have you seen a doctor? If you haven't, that should be a priority. Seeing a doctor and a physical therapist helped me understand my injuries and eventually helped me learn how certain things like a new keyboard might help. With important problems like this it is critical to understand your body.

I'd advise you to experiment and try different things. Not only when it comes to keyboards, but other parts of your routine and life. There are lots of things that can affect you having pain. It might be your keyboard, it might be a confluence of events. For me, having a different keyboard was part of what helped. I have learned that having a keyboard with a good deal of separation (or two separate halves) work well for me. I tried various switches and sizes, but I learned that a flat keyboard wasn't for me. You might be different, try a bunch of stuff and make sure you can either return it or easily re-sell it.

I personally think it is better to start out slow and figure out what you like before committing to expensive keyboards. Even though a lot of people like things like the Kinesis Advantage and Ergodox (like me), they aren't for everyone.

Offline hoggy

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As SonOfSonOfSpock says, see a doctor.

While you're waiting for the appointment -
 
As you're a programmer, you could spend a bit of time trying to work out how to get the same amount of work done for fewer keystrokes.  I wrote a program a while back that generates a function (just the skeleton - I'm not a genius!) complete with checks on arguments and error reporting, that alone saves around 800+ keystrokes per function. What I'm saying is that it's time for you to develop for you.  Also look into text expansion software (I just use AutoHotKey these days).  A good percentage of my 'input' comes from tools, rather than the keyboard.  If you don't think you have time for this, just get texter or phrase express and set it up with 5 or 6 triggers - it will take you about 10-15 minutes at most, you can then carve out the time you need to develop further.  If you do develop for yourself, I'd recommend getting the code to log a count of characters, either by tool or by day so you can justify the time taken.

Take a look at the setup of your desk - there are plenty of guides on the net for this.  If you take a few photos I'm sure we'd love to help.

Do you take breaks?  If you were to run 10 miles, and you could stop to catch your breath...  Workrave is good, it also counts the number of keystrokes and mouseclicks. 

Kinesis have a 60 day return policy... but I'd suggest doing all the little things first.

GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline jacobolus

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Having developed wrist and finger joint issues, I’ve gone in search of a better keyboard, and that led me to GeekHack.
Oh, somehow I missed this bit.

It’s very likely that you can improve your situation quite substantially while using whatever keyboard you’re currently using, but as other folks have mentioned, if this pain starts having an impact on your ability to work, you really should see a doctor.

The most important thing to do is make sure that your wrists are in as straight and neutral a shape as possible. To achieve this, it’s important to type with your palms and wrists “floating” in the air rather than resting on the table, or even a normal palmrest (those are best used while resting, not while actively typing). You also don’t want to have your wrists bending downward, as happens when the keyboard is flat and the desk is very tall. Instead, you want to have your keyboard tilted so that the angle of your forearms/hands (remember, these are pretty much in the same plane, since your wrists are straight) is parallel to the angle to the top of the keyboard / perpendicular to the axis of the switches.

Most tables/desks are too high relative to most chairs for ideally comfortable typing. They are set up for writing with pen and paper, or eating food, or whatever, not for typing on a keyboard. And the top of the keyboard is typically higher still. If your desk is too high, that’s definitely suboptimal, but you can make the most of it by tilting your keyboard (using flip-down feet, or by piling stuff under the back) until the switchplate/pcb are parallel to your forearms, as mentioned in the previous paragraph. The better option here is to raise your chair higher and/or lower your desk (or e.g. use a pull-out keyboard tray), or for some folks even better, switch to a standing desk setup at least part of the time. If you can, get your chair/desk to a height where you can type with your forearms approximately parallel to the floor, or even angled slightly downward, and then tilt your keyboard so that, again, the keyboard plate/pcb is parallel to your forearms.

If you experience severe wrist/finger pain, one thing you can do to take some of the load off your finger joints is to try to let your forearms bounce up and down a bit, and take some of the impact load from your typing, and even contribute a bit to the typing force. This depends on having your wrists floating in the air and not resting your arms on anything. (Alternately, I know some folks who have had good success with armrests that support the arms about halfway up the forearm, but ones that are sufficiently mobile to support comfortable typing and using a mouse, etc. can be mechanically complicated and expensive. Everyone’s a bit different, YMMV, etc.)

You can often get some improvement in comfort by trying to sit up straight and not slouch. But I also know some folks who work full time lying down on their backs.

One problem with many/most rubber dome keyboards is that the keys only actuate at the bottom of the keystroke, rather than partway through the stroke, as mechanical switches do. As a result, the switches often fail to reliably actuate unless the keys are actively pressed all the way to the bottom. On the worst keyboards, it’s necessary to really mash the keys down to avoid dropped keystrokes. Because of this, most typists on rubber dome keyboards type with dramatically more force than necessary to press the switch down, and end up causing a hard impact at the bottom of each keystroke. This puts substantial amounts of stress on all your joints, and especially so if your palms/wrists are resting on something, preventing your arm muscles from taking some of the shock. You want to be typing as lightly and springily as you can get away with without missed keys. A mechanical keyboard will help quite a bit with that; since they actuate pretty reliably noticeably before the bottom of the stroke, it’s not necessary to press the key all the way down, and so it’s possible to type without “bottoming out” the switch at all, or at least without too hard an impact at the bottom. (Bottoming out the switch isn’t a problem, per se; the problem is using much more force than necessary and getting a hard impact.)

Even on a standard keyboard, it’s possible to type with the wrists relatively straight, and the hands/arms angled outward a bit. One thing that I find helps is using “non-standard” fingers for the bottom row of the left hand, along the lines of this diagram:

That way, when the left hand is angled a bit, flexing the fingers from their home row positions will put them right on the appropriate bottom row keys.

Beyond typing form changes alone, there are many other things you can change to improve your comfort and avoid injuries: First, type less! Don’t sit typing for 5+ hours per day if it hurts. Take it easy and let your wrists and fingers heal up a bit. Second, take breaks! Every 10 minutes take your hands off the keyboard and stretch them a bit. Every 30 minutes, stand up and stretch your legs out and walk around the room. Try sitting in different positions, or switching between standing and sitting desks. Recline on the couch reading a book for a while. Write some notes with pen and paper stretched on your belly on the floor... or whatever, get creative. Every few hours, get up and move around a bit, walk from one coffee shop to another, or from a dorm to the library, or take a walk outside around the office building, or go walk to a restaurant for lunch, whatever.

Next, eating healthy, getting enough sleep, not working when you’re sick, and avoiding stress in your work/relationship/friends/family makes a huge difference to your body’s general resilience and stamina. People who are stressed out, especially when they don’t get enough sleep, quite often suffer from inflammation in all kinds of places, manifesting as back pain, or wrist pain, or leg pain, or headaches, etc.

It’s certainly true that split keyboards, symmetric-stagger keyboards, column-stagger keyboards, or even radically sculpted keyboards like the Maltron or Kinesis Advantage can make typing more comfortably easier than on a standard keyboard. The easier and more comfortable the keyboard makes typing, typically the further away from standard ANSI/QWERTY/IBM layout it gets, and therefore has a steeper learning curve / longer adaptation period.

The best upcoming keyboard I know of for someone who wants to have a very short adaptation period is the Matias ErgoPro http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/ which is IMO fairly reasonably priced at $200. But as I said before, there are also occasional used split mechanical keyboards to be found on ebay for <$100, if your budget is tight. Takes doing some hunting though. The Ergodox and similar-ish keyboards (Axios, Keyboard.io, etc.) – or the Maltron/Kinesis Advantage – can be great options for some people, but they definitely take more time and effort to learn.

All the best luck. Stay safe out there.
« Last Edit: Sat, 29 November 2014, 03:40:14 by jacobolus »

Offline derezzed

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SonOfSonOfSpock:  Yes, I've seen a doctor.  He suggested wearing wrist splints while sleeping, which has helped.   I've seen a specialist who said there wasn't enough damage (nothing to indicate my condition was permanent yet) to my nerves to warrant surgery.  But I think your advice is good.  It is time for me to schedule a visit with my doctor.  He is aware of my arthritis in my fingers and suggested ibuprofen.  I've also been using krill oil, which has helped somewhat.    But it's time to escalate the issue. 

hoggy:  I don't take breaks nearly as often as I should.  Thanks for the advice on automation software.  I don't think it would be easy to implement in my case.  I work with SQL and a customized .NET application that does not use OOP.  I will look into it further, though, to see if there is something I can use.  Maybe I can find a way to efficiently make incremental improvements with automation software.

jacobolus:  Unfortunately for my wallet (ignoring cost of living), I don't live anywhere near San Francisco; or Austin, TX, either.  I work at a small company that develops something of a niche product.  We don't work with Java or C# or Ruby or any Web development.  I do sometimes have a problem with my posture, and as I've said to hoggy, I don't take breaks as often as I should.  But I am aware of these issues.  I did appropriate an adjustable under-desk tray for my keyboard and mouse at work.  I have been experimenting with different heights.  I've even tried giving my keyboard a negative tilt.  I don't care for arm rests, as they put pressure on my ulnar nerve.   I would love a standing desk, but we don't have those.   I will definitely check eBay for a cheap mechanical keyboard.   Depending on price, maybe I can afford to try a few keyboards with different switches so I can get a feel for what would be optimal for me.  I’ve assumed that I would be getting a Cherry MX board, but maybe I’ll find Topre or Alps switches more to my liking.

Thanks, everyone, for the sound advice.  I think I’ll aggregate it into a bulleted list to stick on my monitor as a constant reminder.  I’m sorry I have nothing to offer in return.   From what I've seen, GeekHack is a pretty great community, and I’d like to contribute.  If I acquire some other keyboards, I’ll post my experiences with them (FWIW).
« Last Edit: Sat, 29 November 2014, 14:57:56 by derezzed »

Offline jacobolus

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If you can take some photos, or better still, make a video (crappy quality is probably okay) showing how your desk/chair/keyboard are set up and how you type on them, we could offer more concrete, specific advice.

Offline Input Nirvana

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derezzed:
These guys have given a lot of great info.
We're all sorry to hear of your pain. Fortunately there are MANY steps you can take to alleviate the symptoms and the cause. Prevention is really key. I believe the first thing needed is to do ALL possible action to address your physiological issues (stretch, posture, awareness, rest, ice plunges, vary position, etc). Then there are the hardware aspects that can always be improved upon greatly (chairs, standing, wrist rests, keyboards, non-qwerty layout, etc). My assessment: The cost of a keyboard and misc items to improve your situation to a result that is hopefully zero, or at least 80-90% better...is minimal. It's about what's important, and not having RSI is VERY important.
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Offline tbc

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everyone has pretty much covered everything that can be covered without knowing more details.

but...have you considered if you're taking care of your body in general?  people that don't take breaks also generally don't get around to doing other things that are important.  such as staying hydrated (coffee doesn't hydrate), getting enough sleep, doing stretches, using the computer less at home, etc
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Offline steve.v

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Get an ergodox + grifiti wrist rest + learn colemak = win.

Offline steve.v

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Other ergonomic considerations: Aeron/Mirra/Steelcase leap chairs; pivot keyboard trays and angled foot stool.

Offline derezzed

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 30 November 2014, 19:50:52 »
Input Nirvana and tbc:  I definitely do need to be more diligent with addressing my physiological issues.  I know ergonomics involves more than just a choice of keyboard,  and everyone is right to point this out, but the primary goal of my post was to determine whether a flat layout with mechanical keys would provide enough benefit to justify abandoning a more ergonomic layout with rubber dome keys.   From the answers I've gotten, I have decided that it's worth trying a flat layout with mechanical keys, if the price is not too high. 

steve.v:  I definitely intend to get an ergodox variant someday, if it isn't superseded by a superior design.   For now, I have to go mechanical on the cheap. 

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 30 November 2014, 22:37:08 »
Not all rubber domes are bad. I don't have a problem with the rubber domes on the Kinesis Freestyle. They have a light activation. I don't know how the Logitech Wave compares to others though.

If you get a mech board you might want to try some o-rings since you are having finger joint issues. It would make the landing softer.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 01 December 2014, 06:23:52 »
Hrmm...

Take a video of you typing as you normally would .. make it a 5 to 10 minute video so you're not shy by the end of it.

That way we can observe if you're making any mistakes while typing..

Offline Oobly

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 01 December 2014, 07:39:04 »
Keep using the rubber dome until the Axios (or my own creation ;) ) becomes available. The switches in themselves provide less benefit than a good ergonomic setup.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline vvp

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 01 December 2014, 07:50:28 »
The switches in themselves provide less benefit than a good ergonomic setup.
+1
I did not try much switches myself but based on what I tried(*), they do not make a significant difference.

* some rubber domes, some scissor switches, Cherry MX Brown, and Blue

Offline ideus

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 01 December 2014, 08:50:06 »
The fellows have pointed some important points already. Just to address it, some papers on keyboard ergonomics have explored and reported on the importance of the angle of the keyboard. It was found that negative angles from (0, -15) could reduce the stress imposed to the wrist even with flat keyboards, this is of course counter-intuitive with the common practice of positive angles.

I suffered wrist pain three years ago, and it improved with adjustment in:

1) Workstation ergonomics including seat height, addition of a keyboard tray and negative angle for the keyboard.
2) Strength and cardio workout and stretching daily routine.
3) Low strength B Complex daily intake
4) 8 glasses of water
5) Low sodium diet

I am pretty sure your case is different, due to age, health, and habits, but to give a try to the first two points would not hurt anyone.

Offline derezzed

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 03 December 2014, 18:09:15 »
Keep using the rubber dome until the Axios (or my own creation ;) ) becomes available.

I've seen your keyboard.  I didn't know you were planning on a commercial production.  I thought you were making it for your personal use.  I definitely will consider the oobly (can we call it the "oobly") when it comes closer to being available.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 04 December 2014, 04:02:44 »
Keep using the rubber dome until the Axios (or my own creation ;) ) becomes available.

I've seen your keyboard.  I didn't know you were planning on a commercial production.  I thought you were making it for your personal use.  I definitely will consider the oobly (can we call it the "oobly") when it comes closer to being available.

I don't have a name for it yet and have been keeping quiet about plans to produce it, but if the 2nd prototype works out well I will make a small quantity as a Group Buy here on GH and see from there.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline hoggy

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 04 December 2014, 07:43:42 »
Keep using the rubber dome until the Axios (or my own creation ;) ) becomes available.

I've seen your keyboard.  I didn't know you were planning on a commercial production.  I thought you were making it for your personal use.  I definitely will consider the oobly (can we call it the "oobly") when it comes closer to being available.

I don't have a name for it yet and have been keeping quiet about plans to produce it, but if the 2nd prototype works out well I will make a small quantity as a Group Buy here on GH and see from there.

I'm in!
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Gerk

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Re: Ergonomic Tradeoff: "Ergo" layout w/ rubber dome vs flat layout w/ mech. keys
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 05 December 2014, 09:22:35 »
I'm a programmer/computer professional, suffer from RSI and arthritis and have gone through a lot of the same internal struggles.  You're basically at the point I was a few years ago.  I'll be very honest here, I think you are asking a VERY biased crowd about the benefits of mechanical keys vs. rubber domes here, so take that all with a grain of salt.  The biggest advantages with mechanical switch based boards is the feel and durability.  They are not necessarily more ergonomic just because of the switch technology used ... (haters gonna hate that statement!)

If I might offer to save you a LOT of time and money I will very strongly suggest that the actual keyboard positioning and layout matter MUCH MUCH more than the key construction -- provided that the "rubber domes" are at least good quality.  I actually had more issues after switching to a flat mechanical key layout than I did with the more ergo rubber dome boards that I used to use (Microsoft 4000's which you don't like).  I spent a lot of time and money to find the ideal board for my needs and because of this bias I completely ignored the boards that solved my issues from the get-go because they were not mechanical keys, which in hindsight was a costly mistake for me.

I'm not advocating rubber domes here by any stretch ... I absolutely love the feel of good mechanical keys ... but don't put their therapeutic factor above board layout and things like angle and splay, a proper workstation setup, etc.  I'm currently using a pair of Goldtouch V2 keyboards (decent quality rubber domes) and still have almost no issues at all after having spent a few years to finally find a layout that works for me.  One of the key factors in this particular board for me is that I can set the splay and angle that works best for me ... not being forced into anything in particular.  That is ideal for me ... maybe not for you or others, but for me it's priceless.  That and the fact that I can change up that angle/splay slightly every few weeks, which also makes a huge difference for RSI sufferers.  Even a degree or two of either changes things up enough that I don't have the same RSI issues that I used to.  Most other "ergo" boards don't offer that sort of ability -- you basically get what you get.  If that sort of thing is important to you then take that into consideration when evaluating potential boards.

I've personally tried a lot of different boards with very different layouts and can tell you it's very personal thing.  For example I thought I would absolutely love Kinesis boards -- I remember using them a bit way back when.  I bought one used here at one point (waves to Input Nirvana) and it just really wasn't for me.  The concave key wells just didn't work with my naturally claw shaped hands (probably from too many years of typing on crappy keyboards + arthritis).  Others love them.  Same holds true for me in regards to matrix vs. staggered.  I tried a couple of different matrix layout boards and again they are just not for me.  Others claim they are vastly superior in terms of ergonomics but they made my hands ache in ways I didn't know possible.

So if you take anything away from this it's to not discount one board over another because of switch types, staggered vs matrix layout, etc.  I'm typically very hard on keyboards (I replaced my MS 4k's 2-3 times a year) and I've had great success with these Goldtouch V2 boards -- which are just decent quality rubber domes.  I've currently got a Matias Ergo Pro on order which seems a perfect match for my needs ... split staggered layout with nice mechanical keys (Alps variants).  While it doesn't have the adjustability in terms of splay and angle that is built into my current boards it's something I can work around as I now have access to some decent prototyping hardware and I already have a couple of ideas how I can make myself something that gives me back this option with the Matias board ;)

And BTW, welcome to GH :)
« Last Edit: Fri, 05 December 2014, 09:28:50 by Gerk »
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