HELP! Cherry mx (upside down) not for GMK (Cherry) sets (or am I crazy)?

[pixelpusher]

A little bit click-baity title, but I needed attention.  Has anyone noticed this??  I basically can't use 4 keyboards after noticing 

So, upside down switches are often used in per key backlit boards to place LEDs at the top to best illuminate legends.

But did you know that R3 GMK keycaps (the row with caps lock, a, s, d, etc...) make incorrect contact on these switches and don't allow the key to properly bottom out!?

Yep, that's right.

Row 3 cherry profile (GMK) keycaps DO NOT FIT PROPERLY on Cherry MX switches (and possible all clones) when the switches are rotated for North LED placement (logo upside down)!  AND NO, IT'S NOT THE LED

I bought a Cooler Master TKL (Rapid-i) with MX blues on the cheap. I planned to change out the switches put it in a CNC aluminum case.  I received the board today and started putting my GMK Dolch set on it to see how nice they will look and feel.

I had this Dolch set on another Cooler Master board with MX brown switches.  I was transferring the caps from the brown MX board to the new blue MX board. I started with the left modifier column and noticed that the caps lock key didn't sound right when it bottomed out.  I wasn't getting the clack as on the other switches.  Hmm...that's weird.  I swapped the OEM caps back on it, seems fine.  I put the caps lock cap back on the old keyboard and it sounded fine there too. Well, probably a weird keycap or switch, right?  So I try the "A" key.  Same result.  "S" key.  Same.  OMG... IT'S THE WHOLE ROW!

I found it strange that it wasn't happening on one board but it was on the other.  What was the difference??

The difference was the new board had rotated switches for backlighting, so that the LEDs faced North.  I thought, "Oh, I know exactly what this is... the led is hitting the keycap.  Silly OEM manufacturer using 3mm leds instead of 1.8."  I knew this was an issue because I had experienced it when adding LEDs to keyboards in the past.  So, I promptly desoldered the LED and tried it again.  WHAT??!!! It still didn't clack!

I quickly got paranoid about my other boards.  I grabbed my S60-x and went to R3.  All clacky.  hmm... but wait, that board has South facing LEDs.  I grabbed a pok3r.  OMG, they're muted.  I grabbed a Masterkeys Pro... R3... all muted.  What about my Filco?  clack.  Guess what?  South facing LED holes.

So, I have confirmed with 4 keyboards I have (all with Cherry MX switches and GMK keycaps), that R3 keys are not fully compatible.  Yeah, they work, but not like they're supposed to.  It's like learning what stabilizers SHOULD feel like and never being able to go back to the old mushy/rattly ones. 

I have to experiment more with some Gateron switches and see if I get the same result.  I tried really quick before I left and I think it wasn't an issue with the Gateron black switches I had. But, I'll have to get a few on the board side by side to see for sure.

Also, I tried the R3 caps upside down and they clack properly.

Tonight I will try more Gateron switches and also some EnjoyPBT cherry profile to see if it's limited to GMK.

**** guys.  I'm really mad I discovered this.

[Puddsy]

I think you're just crazy. I've been using GMK for years on boards of all sorts and have never noticed any sound difference aside from alphas/mods.

[pixelpusher]

I think you're just crazy. I've been using GMK for years on boards of all sorts and have never noticed any sound difference aside from alphas/mods.

Maybe I should make a video for sound comparison?  Are you sure you've tried the caps lock row with upside down switches?

[Tactile]

This has been discussed in the past.

[pixelpusher]

This has been discussed in the past.

Okay good. I'm not insane.  So does this apply to gateron switches?   I'm fine with swapping out the cherry switches on the 4 boards if I need. 

[Puddsy]

I think you're just crazy. I've been using GMK for years on boards of all sorts and have never noticed any sound difference aside from alphas/mods.

Maybe I should make a video for sound comparison?  Are you sure you've tried the caps lock row with upside down switches?

My whole LZ is upsidedown switches.

[ComandaPanda]

Ive had the same issue also, i avoid all boards with upsidedown switches because of it.  Gateron has the same problem also.

[pixelpusher]

I think you're just crazy. I've been using GMK for years on boards of all sorts and have never noticed any sound difference aside from alphas/mods.

Maybe I should make a video for sound comparison?  Are you sure you've tried the caps lock row with upside down switches?

My whole LZ is upsidedown switches.

I'm guess that we are both telling the truth, so that means the issue is not persistent across all switches or GMK sets.  I can say that all of my GMK sets have been produced in the past 2 years and the switches all within the past 4.

[pixelpusher]

Ive had the same issue also, i avoid all boards with upsidedown switches because of it.  Gateron has the same problem also.

Well this is horrible news.  I was just planning to build a new board this weekend with pandas.  There's no way I'm going to put nice switches on a board knowing that this will be an issue with GMK sets.  Looks like I'm going to have to hunt down a different PCB.  I have several DSA sets that can go on most of these boards, but I had special plans for a GMK set with this new build.  Boo.

[ComandaPanda]

Ive had the same issue also, i avoid all boards with upsidedown switches because of it.  Gateron has the same problem also.

Well this is horrible news.  I was just planning to build a new board this weekend with pandas.  There's no way I'm going to put nice switches on a board knowing that this will be an issue with GMK sets.  Looks like I'm going to have to hunt down a different PCB.  I have several DSA sets that can go on most of these boards, but I had special plans for a GMK set with this new build.  Boo.

Yeah for sure grab a new PCB, boards with upsidedown switches are just not meant for Cherry profile caps. All Cherry profile caps have the issue also, not only GMK, ive tested OG, BSP and EnjoyPBT and all hit the housing.

[pixelpusher]

Ive had the same issue also, i avoid all boards with upsidedown switches because of it.  Gateron has the same problem also.

Well this is horrible news.  I was just planning to build a new board this weekend with pandas.  There's no way I'm going to put nice switches on a board knowing that this will be an issue with GMK sets.  Looks like I'm going to have to hunt down a different PCB.  I have several DSA sets that can go on most of these boards, but I had special plans for a GMK set with this new build.  Boo.

Yeah for sure grab a new PCB, boards with upsidedown switches are just not meant for Cherry profile caps. All Cherry profile caps have the issue also, not only GMK, ive tested OG, BSP and EnjoyPBT and all hit the housing.

Hmm, I never realized it, but I don't think there are any 60% PCBs out there with LED support that have south facing leds.  My S60-x does, but it has underglow and I'm not looking to pay extra for underglow that won't be seen

EDIT - FaceW PCBs do, but why are they so darn expensive??!

[ComandaPanda]

Theres a few, sounds like FaceW is what your looking for has south facing LEDs and no underglow.  Nerd60 is good also.

If you think FaceW is expensive search on aliexpress for Bface and they have a model called "bface southern" for 33$ shipped.

[pixelpusher]

Thanks for the help.  The crap news is that I have over a thousand dollars worth of keyboards and keycaps that are going to have to be evaluated and sold off.  And more coming to me down the road from group buys that are going to have to be dealt with.  I really can't imagine why no one has made a bigger deal of this. It's definitely an issue.

[ComandaPanda]

Anytime i went through the same problem and ended up having to sell a lot my old boards too, only thing to do is sell them unfortunately.  For OEM boards i only buy Cherry G80 3000, Leopold and Filco now, all are great for Cherry profile, and for 60% custom i always stick with the FaceW and Nerd60.  I wish there was an official list of all boards with southern facing LED.

[Tactile]

I'd just like to point out that Topre keyboards don't have this problem. 

[orpheo]

You have or limited access to nice Cherries keycaps on topre though.

[happylacquer]

I'd just like to point out that Topre keyboards don't have this problem. 

Or buckling switch....

Throw MX style switches in the TRASH!

[orpheo]

Title of this thread should be, is there something wrong with all those North led cherry mx keyboard?

Blaming the switches is very closed minded when it is obviously the aftermarket keyboards makers who were wrong!

[pixelpusher]

Title of this thread should be, is there something wrong with all those North led cherry mx keyboard?

Blaming the switches is very closed minded when it is obviously the aftermarket keyboards makers who were wrong!

There I changed it.  I still find it odd that this is a thing but more people don't talk about it.  This would effect all builds using gh60 Satan boards as well as pretty much every off the shelf backlit mx based board out there (poker,v60, v80, all cooler master led boards, etc).  I guess I'm just too picky. But when it's my hobby and I'm doing it to make beautiful and fascinating keyboards, I just can't accept an entire row feeling and sounding differently. Now that I noticed it, I can't stand it. 

I've removed all GMK sets from my boards except my s60-x.  They'll have to be for DSA now and I will have to start sourcing parts to accommodate or start selling stuff off

[Delirious]

pretty sure it's the LEDs that interfere with bottoming out. The housing on the leaf-contact side is fatter and if there would ever be any interference, the leaf-contact side is more likely to experience that.



Just buy yourself 2x3x4 leds and put them inside the switches. But hey, if you're so determined on getting rid of GMK caps, I'm sure other people will appreciate them

[pixelpusher]

pretty sure it's the LEDs that interfere with bottoming out. The housing on the leaf-contact side is fatter and if there would ever be any interference, the leaf-contact side is more likely to experience that.

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Just buy yourself 2x3x4 leds and put them inside the switches. But hey, if you're so determined on getting rid of GMK caps, I'm sure other people will appreciate them

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That was the first thing i tried.  It didnt help.   It's easiest to see what is happening with an LED free Gateron (or other clear top switch) in hand.  Put a R3 Cherry profile cap on it and look at it from underneath.  You'll see that in the proper orientation it just slightly clears all around.  However, if you flip the switch upside down, it's a different story.  I'm not sure if it is the cross bar support on the cap or the housing of the switch or both, but it appears to me that the housing just barely touches the bottom edge (wall) of the keycap in this position.  Look  at the Gateron yellow you posted from the side.  You'll see that the end with the LED cutout slopes down immediately.  However, the opposite side (the one with the leaf spring) plateaus out for a while before sloping.  I think it's this extra material that is making contact on the very short R3 cherry profile caps.  I mean, it's a slight thing... but it's there.  It very much like finding out that your stablizers need clipping.  Before you even heard about it, you were sure everything was fine.  After you FEEL a clipped stabilizer, you realize it was terrible and you can't live with anything like it again.  Ha, I say this as I desolder switches in a Cooler Master board to fix the ****ty stabilizers.

Anyway TLDR: the very first thing I tried was removing the LED.  It didn't help.

[opensecret]

I'm not sure I fully get the physics here, but I'm wondering if o-rings would "solve" this problem by reducing travel on all keys before they hit whatever barrier they're running into.

[orpheo]

I have Satan build and will look for that! But really it never ever bothered me or I'm not sensitive to it. Have to get back from Bangkok to test this!

[pixelpusher]

I have fixed all of my issues by selling stuff and buying stuff. 

I've ditched the Satan board for a NERD 60 and I've ended up with Pulse and Chocolatier on my Coolermaster Boards.  (Yeah, a nice compromise)

So, I don't have any GMK sets on upside down switches anymore, and all is well.  However, I recently trudged over to Massdrop to see the KBD66 with upside down switches and I can't seem to convince anyone there that there is a small compatiblity issue.

Anyone else that can help me point to a thread with more evidence?  Anyone else want to speak up about the stupidity of these upside down switches.  I'm not conjuring up this evidence.  I have personally felt and heard the issue.  I can't imagine that others don't notice it.

I should probably just keep my mouth shut, but I would hate for someone to spend all of their money to get a sub-optimal mech experience

[eksuen]

I have fixed all of my issues by selling stuff and buying stuff. 

I've ditched the Satan board for a NERD 60 and I've ended up with Pulse and Chocolatier on my Coolermaster Boards.  (Yeah, a nice compromise)

So, I don't have any GMK sets on upside down switches anymore, and all is well.  However, I recently trudged over to Massdrop to see the KBD66 with upside down switches and I can't seem to convince anyone there that there is a small compatiblity issue.

Anyone else that can help me point to a thread with more evidence?  Anyone else want to speak up about the stupidity of these upside down switches.  I'm not conjuring up this evidence.  I have personally felt and heard the issue.  I can't imagine that others don't notice it.

I should probably just keep my mouth shut, but I would hate for someone to spend all of their money to get a sub-optimal mech experience

I've personally never had any issues. Different people have different sensitivity to these kinds of "issues". Maybe a lot of people don't notice and ignorance will be their bliss. Maybe a lot of people think the difference is insignificant and simply don't care. I don't think it's quite fair for you to determine what is a sub-optimal mech experience for other people. My concern is the type of behavior that tends to take root in MD drop discussions. A couple people will post about their negative experience and everybody starts freaking out without considering, willfully or negligently, that the vocal ones are usually in the minority. I think it gives a lot of products a bad rap, and unnecessarily so.

[pixelpusher]

I have fixed all of my issues by selling stuff and buying stuff. 

I've ditched the Satan board for a NERD 60 and I've ended up with Pulse and Chocolatier on my Coolermaster Boards.  (Yeah, a nice compromise)

So, I don't have any GMK sets on upside down switches anymore, and all is well.  However, I recently trudged over to Massdrop to see the KBD66 with upside down switches and I can't seem to convince anyone there that there is a small compatiblity issue.

Anyone else that can help me point to a thread with more evidence?  Anyone else want to speak up about the stupidity of these upside down switches.  I'm not conjuring up this evidence.  I have personally felt and heard the issue.  I can't imagine that others don't notice it.

I should probably just keep my mouth shut, but I would hate for someone to spend all of their money to get a sub-optimal mech experience

I've personally never had any issues. Different people have different sensitivity to these kinds of "issues". Maybe a lot of people don't notice and ignorance will be their bliss. Maybe a lot of people think the difference is insignificant and simply don't care. I don't think it's quite fair for you to determine what is a sub-optimal mech experience for other people. My concern is the type of behavior that tends to take root in MD drop discussions. A couple people will post about their negative experience and everybody starts freaking out without considering, willfully or negligently, that the vocal ones are usually in the minority. I think it gives a lot of products a bad rap, and unnecessarily so.

I guess that's true about sensitivity.  People have been clipping stabilizers for quite some time now, yet there are who knows how many thousands of keyboards out there with stock cherry stabilizers unclipped and you don't hear anyone complain. 

[eksuen]

I have fixed all of my issues by selling stuff and buying stuff. 

I've ditched the Satan board for a NERD 60 and I've ended up with Pulse and Chocolatier on my Coolermaster Boards.  (Yeah, a nice compromise)

So, I don't have any GMK sets on upside down switches anymore, and all is well.  However, I recently trudged over to Massdrop to see the KBD66 with upside down switches and I can't seem to convince anyone there that there is a small compatiblity issue.

Anyone else that can help me point to a thread with more evidence?  Anyone else want to speak up about the stupidity of these upside down switches.  I'm not conjuring up this evidence.  I have personally felt and heard the issue.  I can't imagine that others don't notice it.

I should probably just keep my mouth shut, but I would hate for someone to spend all of their money to get a sub-optimal mech experience

I've personally never had any issues. Different people have different sensitivity to these kinds of "issues". Maybe a lot of people don't notice and ignorance will be their bliss. Maybe a lot of people think the difference is insignificant and simply don't care. I don't think it's quite fair for you to determine what is a sub-optimal mech experience for other people. My concern is the type of behavior that tends to take root in MD drop discussions. A couple people will post about their negative experience and everybody starts freaking out without considering, willfully or negligently, that the vocal ones are usually in the minority. I think it gives a lot of products a bad rap, and unnecessarily so.

I guess that's true about sensitivity.  People have been clipping stabilizers for quite some time now, yet there are who knows how many thousands of keyboards out there with stock cherry stabilizers unclipped and you don't hear anyone complain.

Exactly. I don't clip my stabs and I am perfectly happy with them.

[schoolbus]

However, I recently trudged over to Massdrop to see the KBD66 with upside down switches and I can't seem to convince anyone there that there is a small compatiblity issue.

Yeah it's unfortunate that some people are in denial about the issue for whatever reason. Unable to accept reality I guess.

I mean, it's a well accepted FACT that mx-style switches aren't symmetrical north & south facing so there's obviously a difference. Since GMK/Cherry profile keycaps are so 'lean' it's common sense that something like this has the potential to occur.

Obviously, the issue isn't that great though since not everyone notices it (and some are so hell bent on denying it?)- but it is documented by people like this thread and others. Whether you choose to ignore it or not is up to you- but saying it simply doesn't exist seems disingenuous.

I have boards with both and the difference is super subtle but it definitely does exist.

[pixelpusher]

However, I recently trudged over to Massdrop to see the KBD66 with upside down switches and I can't seem to convince anyone there that there is a small compatiblity issue.

Yeah it's unfortunate that some people are in denial about the issue for whatever reason. Unable to accept reality I guess.

I mean, it's a well accepted FACT that mx-style switches aren't symmetrical north & south facing so there's obviously a difference. Since GMK/Cherry profile keycaps are so 'lean' it's common sense that something like this has the potential to occur.

Obviously, the issue isn't that great though since not everyone notices it (and some are so hell bent on denying it?)- but it is documented by people like this thread and others. Whether you choose to ignore it or not is up to you- but saying it simply doesn't exist seems disingenuous.

I have boards with both and the difference is super subtle but it definitely does exist.

[tp4tissue]

what is the problem, is it height difference or stabilizer clearance.

[pixelpusher]

The top of the switch housing makes contact with the inside of the keycap very very slightly

[pixelpusher]

And this is primarily on R3 (shift row)

[tp4tissue]

Just shave down the top of the mx switch housing,  it's not load bearing.. or highly structural..

[pixelpusher]

Just shave down the top of the mx switch housing,  it's not load bearing.. or highly structural..

I actually tried that down to creating a hole and it still didn't help. I didn't think about sanding further, but I think you're right.  If you're willing to cut down that side of the switch top on R3 it would probably fix the issue

[Marutks]

I tried to use GMK Cherry keycaps with KBD66.  There is a problem indeed. Home row keys feel mushy, like with O rings.

[pixelpusher]

I kept my upside down switch boards.  They are now dedicated to SA and DSA caps

[schoolbus]

I kept my upside down switch boards.  They are now dedicated to SA and DSA caps

Haha oh man, are you me?!?!

I have made a point of basically only getting boards now with "proper" alignment, but for the 2 that I have.. (EEPW84/GSX96) they are designated SA boards now lol, which actually works out great.

[pixelpusher]

I ended up with granite, amazing chocolatier and pulse because of the issue, sooo.... I've can't complain too much 

[Rayoui]

I have this issue as well. R3 GMK caps seem to bottom out more softly than the taller profiles. I avoid boards with north facing LEDs because of this.

It's easy to test. Just put a R3 GMK cap on any switch and put another one upside down on the switch next to it. They will feel different. As has been mentioned previously, it happens regardless of whether there is an LED or not because the sloped front of the keycap is making contact with the switch housing.

[schoolbus]

I have this issue as well. R3 GMK caps seem to bottom out more softly than the taller profiles. I avoid boards with north facing LEDs because of this.

It's easy to test. Just put a R3 GMK cap on any switch and put another one upside down on the switch next to it. They will feel different. As has been mentioned previously, it happens regardless of whether there is an LED or not because the sloped front of the keycap is making contact with the switch housing.

QFT!, thank goodness there are us folks who are aware! I basically stopped recommending ducky boards because of this.

[pixelpusher]

I have this issue as well. R3 GMK caps seem to bottom out more softly than the taller profiles. I avoid boards with north facing LEDs because of this.

It's easy to test. Just put a R3 GMK cap on any switch and put another one upside down on the switch next to it. They will feel different. As has been mentioned previously, it happens regardless of whether there is an LED or not because the sloped front of the keycap is making contact with the switch housing.

QFT!, thank goodness there are us folks who are aware! I basically stopped recommending ducky boards because of this.

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Yes! And I always enjoy asking other helpful men about how to properly lube

[Grossmeister]

I basically stopped recommending ducky boards because of this.

Does the problem exist with the stock Ducky PBT caps, or only if a user wants to install different keycaps?

[pixelpusher]

I basically stopped recommending ducky boards because of this.

Does the problem exist with the stock Ducky PBT caps, or only if a user wants to install different keycaps?

Stock  Ducky are OEM profile which is a bit taller, so you should not have an issue. 

[captsis]

  Yeah, they work, but not like they're supposed to.  It's like learning what stabilizers SHOULD feel like and never being able to go back to the old mushy/rattly ones. 

Wait....What should a stabilizer feel like?

[pixelpusher]

  Yeah, they work, but not like they're supposed to.  It's like learning what stabilizers SHOULD feel like and never being able to go back to the old mushy/rattly ones. 

Wait....What should a stabilizer feel like?

Just like the other non-stabilized keys.  If your keyboard has cherry stabilizers they will often feel somewhat less clacky on bottom out, what some people call “mushy”.  This is due to the small bit of extra plastic on the bottom of the stabilizer inserts that make contact with the pcb before the switch completely bottoms out. These are usually removed with flush cutters by keyboard enthusiasts.  Look up “clipping stabilizers” for more detail if needed.

Stabilizers also often have a rattle from the stabilizer wire wiggling around in the insert. Adding thick lubricant to that hole (hehe) serves to dampen and often completely silence the rattle. See “lubing stabilizers” for more detail.

If your keyboard has non-cherry stabilizers (pre-clipped inserts or costar) you could likely just have rattle and no mush (solved the same way, with lubricant)