Question about mx clears

[ValerieV]

Leopold is offering mx clears and i have never used them. I have tried mx black and hated them because they are so hard to press. Are the clears better? Are they easier to press? Also, are they stiffer than the mx greens? Thanks.

[JPG]

Mx Clear are stiffer than Mx Black. Most people love them only when they change the spring for a lighter one (called ergo-clear). It does not mean stock clear are not nice, but to most they prefer them to be more light.

[SpAmRaY]

I love stock clears!!

What keyboard are you looking at?

[Moosecraft]

Clear stems are win, springs not so much for me.

[phx]

I'm actually in the process of swapping in 62g korean springs into my clears.
really looking forward to finishing it, preliminary tests are promising 

[BliTzKiN]

Clears actually feel good stock, I just can't find myself using them over a long period because my fingers get tired way too easily. I know they're stiffer than blacks but I don't recall greens. Maybe you could just get them in Clears and if you feel they're too stiff for you, just swap in some lighter springs

[Melvang]

clears have a lower initial force to press than blacks but ramp up higher 

This should give a good comparison

[CPTBadAss]

Missed the "url=" melvang.

[Melvang]

Missed the "url=" melvang.

nice catch all fixed

[ValerieV]

I love stock clears!!

What keyboard are you looking at?

Qtan is selling them on ebay and they are Leopold.

[SpAmRaY]

I love stock clears!!

What keyboard are you looking at?

Qtan is selling them on ebay and they are Leopold.

Ok just making sure I didn't miss some other leopold with clears!!

[Findecanor]

clears have a lower initial force to press than blacks but ramp up higher

The ramp-up is sharp after the tactile bump/actuation point, stopping your press. I therefore find Clears to be less tiring than Blacks, where I always have to overshoot the actuation point some more.

[PointyFox]

I don't understand the design of those boards.  Why waste a lot of room for insert and delete keys?  Does anyone even use those?  I use home/print screen/end and function keys a lot more than I do insert and delete.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Clears are actually fairly light. The terminal force is very high, but the actuation force is goldilocks, and if you don't bottom out (which is very easy to learn with clears), you don't wear out your fingers. It's a pretty nice switch, but it takes a bit of acclimatisation to learn to release the key after actuation, letting the sharp rise in force cushion each keystroke without needing to bottom out.

The tactile point is smooth, too, unlike MX blue or Alps. If my MX brown board ever dies for good, I'm not sure whether I'd replace it with brown again, or clear.

[PointyFox]

Clears are actually fairly light. The terminal force is very high, but the actuation force is goldilocks, and if you don't bottom out (which is very easy to learn with clears), you don't wear out your fingers. It's a pretty nice switch, but it takes a bit of acclimatisation to learn to release the key after actuation, letting the sharp rise in force cushion each keystroke without needing to bottom out.

The tactile point is smooth, too, unlike MX blue or Alps. If my MX brown board ever dies for good, I'm not sure whether I'd replace it with brown again, or clear.

Eh, close.. I wish the activation point was at the top of the bump, not after it, so you really can't rely on the rise in force.  You need to somehow condition yourself to release it when the force starts DECREASING.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

After the tactile bump, the force drops off, yes. On a normal keyboard, you then bottom out uncontrollably.

With clears, the force then increases sharply and significantly. I find that if I bottom out clears, this huge increase in force is very tiring. However, if you press the key with less force, you can actually let go during this force increase. It's not hard to adjust to the amount of force needed to clear the tactile point.

The only down side is that when you press single keys, you can still feel the stiff, mushy landing. That's my main reservation.

The alternative is Matias quiet switches, which are far more comfortable to bottom out than Cherry MX (no hard landing) but they have a gritty feel, while clears are lovely and smooth.

[PointyFox]

After the tactile bump, the force drops off, yes. On a normal keyboard, you then bottom out uncontrollably.

With clears, the force then increases sharply and significantly. I find that if I bottom out clears, this huge increase in force is very tiring. However, if you press the key with less force, you can actually let go during this force increase. It's not hard to adjust to the amount of force needed to clear the tactile point.

The only down side is that when you press single keys, you can still feel the stiff, mushy landing. That's my main reservation.

The alternative is Matias quiet switches, which are far more comfortable to bottom out than Cherry MX (no hard landing) but they have a gritty feel, while clears are lovely and smooth.

The activation point on clears is actually after the force drops off.  So if you just let go when the force is increasing, it may not register a keystroke. 

[Melvang]

PointyFox

I believe you are talking about the ramp up in force due to the bump in the stem and Daniel is talking about the ramp up in force that occurs at the bottom of the keystroke due to the spring being compressed more.

[wicked1]

I recently got a filco w/ browns and the leopold w/ clears.  I like the clears a lot more.  Browns are too light for me.  I can see where some would think the clears are too stiff, though.  But like others said, the tactile and actuation point aren't that high (55-60g) but then it ramps up from there.. Don't bottom out, you never get more than about 55g for the press.  ( I have not measured anything, so this is just going by the poisted data and feel)

[PointyFox]

PointyFox

I believe you are talking about the ramp up in force due to the bump in the stem and Daniel is talking about the ramp up in force that occurs at the bottom of the keystroke due to the spring being compressed more.

He's talking about both.  Here's the part about the tactile bump: "However, if you press the key with less force, you can actually let go during this force increase. It's not hard to adjust to the amount of force needed to clear the tactile point.".

[Moosecraft]

I wish there were springs just like the clear ones but a tad lighter.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The activation point on clears is actually after the force drops off.  So if you just let go when the force is increasing, it may not register a keystroke. 

It would take effort to let go that early and that precisely …

[soleusrex]

I recently got a WASD Code and have been somewhat disappointed with the clear switches (my other two boards have blue and topre switches). Maybe I'll warm up to them over time, but my initial reaction is that they feel rather muddy. There's an unpleasant sensation of friction to them. I think I was expecting a feel that was firm and yet clean, if that makes sense.

[fohat.digs]

Why waste a lot of room for insert and delete keys?  Does anyone even use those?

I never use Insert but Delete is one of the most-used keys on my keyboard!

Don't you make mistakes? How do you delete things after you highlight them?

My single biggest frustration with my laptop is that Delete is obscure and hard to find.

[SpAmRaY]

I recently got a WASD Code and have been somewhat disappointed with the clear switches (my other two boards have blue and topre switches). Maybe I'll warm up to them over time, but my initial reaction is that they feel rather muddy. There's an unpleasant sensation of friction to them. I think I was expecting a feel that was firm and yet clean, if that makes sense.

That's odd, can't say I've ever had clears that felt that way

[therecorder]

I love stock clears!!

What keyboard are you looking at?

Qtan is selling them on ebay and they are Leopold.

Buy them at his Web Store.  There they are cheaper and the Clears are available in Black, Gray, or White keyboards:  http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/category/cateogry1-name/catId=4367799

I have one of the Black FC660Ms with Clears, and it's nicer and smoother (with a soft, but distinct tactile bump) than my other 4 Clear boards.  The high force required after the bump will only be a factor if you tend to constantly bottom out.  Personally, even if you do bottom out, I don't think that they are anywhere as difficult on the fingers as Blacks are.

[ComradeSniper]

I recently got a WASD Code and have been somewhat disappointed with the clear switches (my other two boards have blue and topre switches). Maybe I'll warm up to them over time, but my initial reaction is that they feel rather muddy. There's an unpleasant sensation of friction to them. I think I was expecting a feel that was firm and yet clean, if that makes sense.

I felt the exact same about Clears, and that's what brought me back to Blues.

[ValerieV]

What is the actuation force if i did bottom out? I have a tendency of being a little heavy handed with my keyboards. Thanks.

[ComradeSniper]

What is the actuation force if i did bottom out? I have a tendency of being a little heavy handed with my keyboards. Thanks.

I think it's 100cn. Clears are very difficult to bottom out on IMO.

[ch_123]

I recently got a WASD Code and have been somewhat disappointed with the clear switches (my other two boards have blue and topre switches). Maybe I'll warm up to them over time, but my initial reaction is that they feel rather muddy. There's an unpleasant sensation of friction to them. I think I was expecting a feel that was firm and yet clean, if that makes sense.

I've heard that they need some time to 'break in'.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Actuation force is the same whether you bottom out or not.

I'm now using the term "terminal force" for the force at the end of the stroke.

Looking at a March 1994 brochure with graphs in that appear to include clears:

MX with tactile feel: 65 cN tactile force at 1.25 mm, 95 cN terminal force
MX with tactile feel (ergonomic): 50 cN tactile force at 1.25 mm, 60 cN terminal force

I'm assuming that the former is clear, and the latter is brown.

It's interesting that the tactile point is significantly higher than the pretravel (distance to actuation), more in line with Alps figures, even though you don't feel it the way you do with Alps or domes.

The graph essentially backs what's on the DT wiki. Generally, the tactile force and terminal force are around the same, but with clears, the terminal force is far higher.

[PointyFox]

The activation point on clears is actually after the force drops off.  So if you just let go when the force is increasing, it may not register a keystroke. 

It would take effort to let go that early and that precisely …

Only if you're trying to have a 0% actuation rate.

All I'm saying is that people whom use MX Brown can suffer from premature actuation.  I'm sure harder keystrokes may help, but it may be tiring to those who just wish to actuate quickly or have weak hands.

 

[tp4tissue]

it comes down to if you employ lazy style typing or quick strike typing..

Lazy style will require the ergo mod, because you're resting your wrist on something, and letting your fingers do pressing.

Since most people using computers these days do so for a very long time, they usually rely on the Lazy style.. which explains the large adoption of Ergo-Clear.


THIS is all the more reason people need an Ergodox, because that is the best way for them to TRY IT ALL, and find out exactly what they need..

Ergodox saves lives.

[Larken]

The activation point on clears is actually after the force drops off.  So if you just let go when the force is increasing, it may not register a keystroke. 

It would take effort to let go that early and that precisely …

Only if you're trying to have a 0% actuation rate.

All I'm saying is that people whom use MX Brown can suffer from premature actuation.  I'm sure harder keystrokes may help, but it may be tiring to those who just wish to actuate quickly or have weak hands.

 

I have had the same experience as PointyFox wrt stock clears. It's tiring for me to use stock clears and it breaks my rhythm due to not hitting the actuation point, since I came from browns - and learnt how to type while riding the actuation point.

I agree about the point that clears are actually pretty light to the touch - but the increase in force does occur before the actuation point, for those accustomed to browns; this in my personal experience does lead to alot of unregistered keypresses.

But here's the thing, it's all about adjustment. After being on 55g ergoclears for a few months (and I mostly bottom out on them given how light those are), recently I'd given 62 ergoclears a try, and found that my hands are so accustomed to the weight of the 55g springs, that I actuation pretty precisely on the 62 and release way before I even hit the bottom. It really depends how heavy handed you are.

As for the stock clear spring, its rather unique in its make. Here's an old post I made about it;
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44749.msg930582#msg930582

If you wish to get a similar characteristic, but with a lower actuation force - at a cursory glance, the korean 67g springs would seem to be the closest match (with regards to the lesser number of active coils). But this is just a guess, as the 67g springs are rather hard to come by.

[tp4tissue]

question,, more coils mean...... 

[davkol]

I wish there were springs just like the clear ones but a tad lighter.

This.

I hate dampeners because they make key travel shorter, but I want to avoid harsh bottoming out at the same time. It seems unlikely that a switch with 6mm maximum key travel, which would allow me to stop moving my finger before bottoming out, will suddenly appear out of nowhere. This "clear" spring design is a decent workaround, though. However, I somehow prefer lighter switches (MX Red fighting!), thus hard-to-bottom-out switches with ~50g actuation force would be awesome—both tactile and linear (or rather almost exponential in this case, although it reminds me of Cherry MY).

[wicked1]

I recently got a WASD Code and have been somewhat disappointed with the clear switches (my other two boards have blue and topre switches). Maybe I'll warm up to them over time, but my initial reaction is that they feel rather muddy. There's an unpleasant sensation of friction to them. I think I was expecting a feel that was firm and yet clean, if that makes sense.

I've heard that they need some time to 'break in'.

This is apparently true...  I was just noticing the keys I use often feel better (and sound different) than the ones I do not.   Definitely smoother.

[PointyFox]

I recently got a WASD Code and have been somewhat disappointed with the clear switches (my other two boards have blue and topre switches). Maybe I'll warm up to them over time, but my initial reaction is that they feel rather muddy. There's an unpleasant sensation of friction to them. I think I was expecting a feel that was firm and yet clean, if that makes sense.

I've heard that they need some time to 'break in'.

This is apparently true...  I was just noticing the keys I use often feel better (and sound different) than the ones I do not.   Definitely smoother.

They do break in with use.

[Moosecraft]

I recently got a WASD Code and have been somewhat disappointed with the clear switches (my other two boards have blue and topre switches). Maybe I'll warm up to them over time, but my initial reaction is that they feel rather muddy. There's an unpleasant sensation of friction to them. I think I was expecting a feel that was firm and yet clean, if that makes sense.

I've heard that they need some time to 'break in'.

This is apparently true...  I was just noticing the keys I use often feel better (and sound different) than the ones I do not.   Definitely smoother.

They do break in with use.

Definitely, a new board with browns feels awful to me but a worn in one feels nice and tactile.

[tbc]

....what?

a worn down brown feels more tactile?  surely you mean smoother and more linear?

the down arrow on my brown feels like a red.

[PointyFox]

....what?

a worn down brown feels more tactile?  surely you mean smoother and more linear?

the down arrow on my brown feels like a red.

I don't think some people know what tactile means. 

[tp4tissue]

....what?

a worn down brown feels more tactile?  surely you mean smoother and more linear?

the down arrow on my brown feels like a red.

I don't think some people know what tactile means. 

it's possible that a new brown feels so grindy "below" and/or "above"  the slider bump, that the slider bump is not felt or pronounced..

[ValerieV]

I once bought a cherry mx red and cherry mx brown keyboard and that was stupid. You can hardly tell the difference. I kept the brown because it is a little louder but i can hardly tell the difference between the two switches.

[PointyFox]

Anyone know where I can get MX clear switches?

[SpAmRaY]

Anyone know where I can get MX clear switches?

7bit group buy at DT

[tbc]

I once bought a cherry mx red and cherry mx brown keyboard and that was stupid. You can hardly tell the difference. I kept the brown because it is a little louder but i can hardly tell the difference between the two switches.

they're brown from a reason.  because they're ****.

[tp4tissue]

I once bought a cherry mx red and cherry mx brown keyboard and that was stupid. You can hardly tell the difference. I kept the brown because it is a little louder but i can hardly tell the difference between the two switches.

do you have long nails..

The difference is more felt at the finger tip, so it's possible that if you are nail typing, you wouldn't feel the difference as much..


Or when you're "at speed" then you're not feeling anything...

[ValerieV]

No. I keep my nails short. I do bottom out a lot though i am getting better at not being so heavy handed.

[tp4tissue]

No. I keep my nails short. I do bottom out a lot though i am getting better at not being so heavy handed.

you're suppose to bottom out for high speed typing...

but for just chillin' scenarios, i suppose it's ok to be mushy.

[tbc]

even with clears???  that sounds horribly exhausting