Ergodox Ez - Someone is going to sell fully-assembled ergodox' soon

[byker]

Found this website today: http://www.ergodox-ez.com/


Looks like they are going to be selling pre-assembled ergodox soon. If you pre-order now, you get a better deal than the normal pricing to come later.


(I am not affiliated, I just found it) (Not sure if this is the right sub-forum for this topic, feel free to move it mods)

[E TwentyNine]

There was a thread on this here, seems to have been removed...

[Findecanor]

http://deskthority.net/product-news-f44/assembled-ergodox-with-warranty-available-for-pre-order-t10117.html

[metalliqaz]

That webpage is full of broken links.

Also it amazes me that they would offer an "EZ" and not include keycaps with legends.

The prices are comparatively low.  I don't trust these guys.

[Want]

I don't trust this either. The site is too barebones, and all the pictures feature what seems to be a single ErgoDox with a 3d-printed case.
Also, $10 for keycaps? Damn, everything sounds too good to be true.

[nubbinator]

Guize, they're totes l.e.g.i.t.  You can tell because they're not charging anyone and will be doing it via IndieGoGo where no one has ever scammed anyone.

Sarcasm aside, they may be legitimate, just web incompetent.

On a related note, it always irks me when people decide to monetize open source stuff.

[Findecanor]

On a related note, it always irks me when people decide to monetize open source stuff.

You mean, like Massdrop, Mechanicalkeyboards.com and FalbaTech?

[nubbinator]

I'm a firm believer that open source stuff should be available at cost and if it's too be monetized, the creator should be compensated.

If they're making money on the case alone, I'm ok with that.

[jacobolus]

There’s really no inherent problem with monetizing free (i.e. libre / “free as in freedom”) things. There’s nothing in e.g. the GPL (the license of the Ergodox) that says people can’t sell derivative works, or sell support contracts, or whatever.

The key part of the free software movement is guaranteeing that users of derivative products have all the same rights as users of the original version, as intended by the creators who put their stuff under GPL license.

(leaving aside the question of whether the GPL is at all appropriate for hardware projects – clearly it’s not – or has any real legal ramifications when used on hardware)

Anyway, if someone creating something (like an open source keyboard or whatever else) doesn’t want others to make commercial projects as derivatives, then the license terms should make that clear. There are several licenses which forbid commercial use.

Trying to forbid or discourage someone from making commercial spinoffs of GPL-licensed things, however, runs totally contrary to the intentions of the GPL.

[jacobolus]

Anyhow, I’m also pretty skeptical of their ability to deliver on what they’re promising. I was giving them (maybe too much of) a hard time over at Deskthority, asking how they plan to handle all the design / supply chain / injection molding tooling / FCC certification / distribution / etc. problems on the very low (for a non-mass-market hardware product) price they’re planning to sell these for.

It sounds to me like they mean well, but are in way over their heads. They’re a pair of web developers / bloggers / tech journalists, with as far as I can tell no prior hardware experience. They have an unnamed Taiwanese keyboard OEM working with them and handling manufacturing and distribution. Then they’re going to handle support themselves, just 1–2 people. I’m mostly afraid that a bunch of kids from Reddit will hand over cash, and then these guys will scramble for a few months or longer and have great difficulty delivering or handling support when inevitable problems crop up. Basically, something similar to the way things went with the Truly Ergonomic folks.

But maybe they’re more experienced / better prepared than I’m giving them credit for, and they’ll surprise us all. Who knows. In any event, I wish them all the best.

[byker]

Yeah I am skeptical too, but I guess we shall see soon enough, as they plan on starting the kickstarter in a few weeks!

[demik]

I don't trust these guys.

[berserkfan]

I don't trust these guys.

That $10 keycaps thing really raised my eyebrows, and the casing raised my brows even further. Without calling it a scam, I am concerned that their pricing may not be sustainable. And how do you 3D print 500 casings if you have that many orders? Your machine will die/ stuff will go wrong. I've seen many plastic noodles.

[vivalarevolución]

I hope they improve the thumb cluster before selling it.

[Novus]

This is tp's wet dream

[nubbinator]

I hope they improve the thumb cluster before selling it.

They're not.

[tp4tissue]

This is tp's wet dream

for $190 with caps,  assembled..  It may be a better buy than the Ergo Pro.. because it does have the more natural columnar layout.

[vivalarevolución]

I hope they improve the thumb cluster before selling it.

They're not.

Yea, I wasn't holding out.  The Ergodox thumb cluster basically prevents me from buying another Ergodox.

[berserkfan]

I hope they improve the thumb cluster before selling it.

They're not.

Yea, I wasn't holding out.  The Ergodox thumb cluster basically prevents me from buying another Ergodox.

Looks like I'm not the only one!

[davkol]

Yeah, I asked at Reddit and, oh well,…

There's an annoying hype that sounds like they're going to ship *now*. No, they're not. They're gonna take money from over 100 people, then run a crowd funding campaign (these never fail, right?), only then start manufacturing, and the current ETA is shipping in 8 months. Given that things never go as expected, the best case realistic scenario is something like shipping around summer-Xmas 2016. Why the hell should anyone get a stock ErgoDox (including its thumb cluster a bit off) in 2016?

[ylancet]

Hey everyone,

I'm one of the co-founders at ErgoDox EZ, this is an interesting discussion.

Without going into too much detail here (you can always email us if you have specific questions, we're happy to help), there are a few things I can help clear up.

First of all, no one has to pay at the pre-order stage, so we can't scam anyone. Pre-ordering an ErgoDox EZ now is only a means of securing the pre-order price when we go live on IndieGoGo. The price really is low, and will only be available for the first 48 hours of the campaign or so. No money will exchange hands before the campaign goes live.

Second, we don't plan on using 3D printing for mass production. You can read more about it on our page, but we've re-designed the case for injection molding (ABS). What you see on the website is our prototype, and yes, it's 3D printed.

As for legends on keys, big changes to the case etc., those could be stretch goals/future iterations if the campaign is successful.

[byker]

Thank you for coming to Geekhack! We have a lot of very knowledgable keyboard enthusiasts here, so I would encourage you to stick around and join our community! If you are interested in staying and answering questions, I believe you can private message a moderator and ask for vendor status so that people can differentiate you! 

[diqkiq]

Hey everyone,

I'm one of the co-founders at ErgoDox EZ, this is an interesting discussion.

Without going into too much detail here (you can always email us if you have specific questions, we're happy to help), there are a few things I can help clear up.

First of all, no one has to pay at the pre-order stage, so we can't scam anyone. Pre-ordering an ErgoDox EZ now is only a means of securing the pre-order price when we go live on IndieGoGo. The price really is low, and will only be available for the first 48 hours of the campaign or so. No money will exchange hands before the campaign goes live.

Second, we don't plan on using 3D printing for mass production. You can read more about it on our page, but we've re-designed the case for injection molding (ABS). What you see on the website is our prototype, and yes, it's 3D printed.

As for legends on keys, big changes to the case etc., those could be stretch goals/future iterations if the campaign is successful.

Which side will the controller be in? I need it in the left.

[Locafoca]

I placed a pre-order a couple of days ago, after asking Erez about Clears as an option.  Real upstanding guys.  They haven't asked for money yet, but they seem motivated to actually deliver on the product.  I'm not worried at all that they'll run off with my money.

I can understand the skepticism about the +$10 keycaps option.  Though, I imagine lots of keycap vendors would fall over themselves to offer 8-80k identical keycaps - note that the keycaps in the example are all blank DSA, so only two types of keycaps would actually have to be produced.  Economies of scale and all that...

[tp4tissue]

I placed a pre-order a couple of days ago, after asking Erez about Clears as an option.  Real upstanding guys.  They haven't asked for money yet, but they seem motivated to actually deliver on the product.  I'm not worried at all that they'll run off with my money.

I can understand the skepticism about the +$10 keycaps option.  Though, I imagine lots of keycap vendors would fall over themselves to offer 8-80k identical keycaps - note that the keycaps in the example are all blank DSA, so only two types of keycaps would actually have to be produced.  Economies of scale and all that...

3 types

[berserkfan]

Though, I imagine lots of keycap vendors would fall over themselves to offer 8-80k identical keycaps - note that the keycaps in the example are all blank DSA, so only two types of keycaps would actually have to be produced.  Economies of scale and all that...

It's good that the organizers have spoken up here.

I'm not so sure the keycaps will work. DSA will be SP, and I can't imagine them offering an entire set of blanks at only $10. If they were willing to do it, I'm pretty sure many GHers, including me, would have already subscribed to such a group buy!

[Data]

Though, I imagine lots of keycap vendors would fall over themselves to offer 8-80k identical keycaps - note that the keycaps in the example are all blank DSA, so only two types of keycaps would actually have to be produced.  Economies of scale and all that...

It's good that the organizers have spoken up here.

I'm not so sure the keycaps will work. DSA will be SP, and I can't imagine them offering an entire set of blanks at only $10. If they were willing to do it, I'm pretty sure many GHers, including me, would have already subscribed to such a group buy!

A full ANSI set of thin ABS doubleshots can be had for $20-25 in volume.  The eDox has fewer keys overall and only 3 key cap sizes.  I could see them maybe getting a thin, blank ABS set in DSA or some other "low" profile for close to $10 in super high volume.  It's a stretch but not outside the realm of possibility.

[berserkfan]

A full ANSI set of thin ABS doubleshots can be had for $20-25 in volume.  The eDox has fewer keys overall and only 3 key cap sizes.  I could see them maybe getting a thin, blank ABS set in DSA or some other "low" profile for close to $10 in super high volume.  It's a stretch but not outside the realm of possibility.

That is sooooo not going to work.

Kids buying the logitech don't mind the thin keycaps.

Professional geeks buying the ergodox aren't going to be happy with poor quality keycaps, especially if they die like logitech ones. There's no need for fantastically high quality because not everyone wants to fork out the extra expense, but $10+ for keycaps is unlikely to be good quality and it's like selling Cooler Master keycaps for $10+, a fair price that reflects the cost but still not a price that anyone wants to pay.

[Data]

A full ANSI set of thin ABS doubleshots can be had for $20-25 in volume.  The eDox has fewer keys overall and only 3 key cap sizes.  I could see them maybe getting a thin, blank ABS set in DSA or some other "low" profile for close to $10 in super high volume.  It's a stretch but not outside the realm of possibility.

That is sooooo not going to work.

Kids buying the logitech don't mind the thin keycaps.

Professional geeks buying the ergodox aren't going to be happy with poor quality keycaps, especially if they die like logitech ones. There's no need for fantastically high quality because not everyone wants to fork out the extra expense, but $10+ for keycaps is unlikely to be good quality and it's like selling Cooler Master keycaps for $10+, a fair price that reflects the cost but still not a price that anyone wants to pay.

Professional geeks can probably supply their own key caps.  Professional geeks probably know what they're getting when they see a key set for $10.  They would buy it knowing what it was: a stopgap.

/shrug

You're probably right but I'm just playing devil's advocate.  There's no such thing as a "good quality" key set for $10.  It doesn't exist.  You and I know that.

[random_rockets]

Well they just sent me this lovely e-mail.

[davkol]

You're probably right but I'm just playing devil's advocate.  There's no such thing as a "good quality" key set for $10.  It doesn't exist.  You and I know that.

I know it's Cherry Corp. and their market presence is weird, partly due to the volumes they're used to dealing in, but hey! G83 **** domes come with what? PBT keycaps. Yes. And then obviously the G80s… €55 for a full-size keyboard with Cherry MX switches and [thick] non-ABS keycaps? There you go.

[jacobolus]

The actual marginal production cost of a set of keycaps at industrial scale is in the $1–5 range, depending on type of plastic, single vs. double-shot, printing, UV coating, etc.

But the problem is, the enthusiast market isn’t big enough to amortize the tooling, machine, and setup costs and actually drive unit prices down that low.

[berserkfan]

The actual marginal production cost of a set of keycaps at industrial scale is in the $1–5 range, depending on type of plastic, single vs. double-shot, printing, UV coating, etc.

But the problem is, the enthusiast market isn’t big enough to amortize the tooling, machine, and setup costs and actually drive unit prices down that low.

The problem isn't the overall size of the enthusiast/ gamer market, but with the way this market is segmented.

We can never get enough geeks on the same page to order enough keycaps to drive prices for even a set of PBT dyesubs down near $20. That's because all geeks want to customize and have something reasonably unique. In the past year alone there have probably been at least 200 unique keyset types produced worldwide by geek group buys. If only we could bring that number down to 5-10 super big group buys per year, we might get the economies of scale needed.

Sometimes having too much choice is bad.

Because nearly all buckling spring keycaps are produced by Unicomp, they have the economies of scale to make their dyesub keycaps cheap. And are we any the worse for it?

SP's change to their PMK website has made it very easy to organize group buys. But because of that I don't think we will ever get inexpensive keycaps in my lifetime. Every geek is going to make his own 'custom' keyset and struggle mightily to reach MOQ.

[davkol]

7bit much?

[ylancet]

Hey again everyone,

So, regarding keycaps: yes, we're charging $10 for keycaps in the pre-order stage, but that doesn't mean we'll be paying $10 for a set ourselves. These are special pre-order prices, and you'll be seeing different price differences in the campaign itself (if and when the pre-order-priced keyboards are all gone). In short, don't jump to conclusions from the pre-order prices.

As for the controller, it's probably going to be on the right side.