Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...

[Leslieann]

Recently, a friend of mine asked me to help him upgrade from Vista to 10. It was a nightmare. Actually, I had to revert back to Vista and tell that friend to keep it at that.

Any Vista system is going to be quite old, I've gotten to the point I rarely will even work on anything that isn't at least Win7 era (preferably late Win7), and I won't upgrade anything (hardware-wise) not on DDR3. It's just too troublesome and expensive for what you get in return. Trying to jump to jump 1 os generation is bad, but 4? This should never, EVER be done, it needs to be backed up and installed fresh. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the odds are very much against you, plus, each update brings new baggage to the system, tons of wear and tear, it just creates a mess. This is one good thing about 10's update system, it purges everything and only keeps what it needs, rather than actually updating (it does bad things as well though).


More importantly though, by year 4, spinning drive life tends to spiral downward at an increasing rate, what you just did was probably the worst workout that system has EVER experienced. I've killed newer systems just by giving them a good cleaning and tune up, don't be surprised if your friends system sh*ts the bed within the next few months, possibly days. You may want to warn them, and get a backup system in place.

If I was asked to do this, I would have done a thorough check on the system before I touched anything (system specs, temps, drive health, how much dust is in the box), then image it, do a fresh install of 7, put their data back on and call it done. That's IF I would even touch it, systems that old are just too delicate to work that hard.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

I've heard there's been a change to MS's EULA re: access to private files. Can someone confirm or deny? Reason I'm asking: the EULA is the only thing that prevents me from accepting the free upgrade.

I dunno about changes. But isn't the EULA as is with win10 worse enough that it prevents you from upgrading?

The original EULA certainly was that bad, but I've heard people say MS has changed it.

[SBJ]

I've heard there's been a change to MS's EULA re: access to private files. Can someone confirm or deny? Reason I'm asking: the EULA is the only thing that prevents me from accepting the free upgrade.

I dunno about changes. But isn't the EULA as is with win10 worse enough that it prevents you from upgrading?

The original EULA certainly was that bad, but I've heard people say MS has changed it.

There's a thread on reddit about it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3f69pi/does_windows_10_really_allow_microsoft_to_access/

[noisyturtle]

I love all these articles about 10 being forced on users, and here I am wanting to upgrade and finding it impossible. I actually had a few MS engineers over for beers a week ago and even they couldn't figure out why the prompt wan't tripping on my system. 3 MS software engineers in my apartment trying to get 10 to work on my legit copy of 7 on my completely compatible system for almost an hour and a half with no luck. Guess I'm the one ****ing guy on the planet who actually wants it and can't get it.

[Leslieann]

I love all these articles about 10 being forced on users, and here I am wanting to upgrade and finding it impossible. I actually had a few MS engineers over for beers a week ago and even they couldn't figure out why the prompt wan't tripping on my system. 3 MS software engineers in my apartment trying to get 10 to work on my legit copy of 7 on my completely compatible system for almost an hour and a half with no luck. Guess I'm the one ****ing guy on the planet who actually wants it and can't get it.

I'm going to bet that it's an early Core I system using EFI.

In any case, it probably will not run Win 8.1 and has to do with the bios/efi system. There's nothing MS can do until the manufacturer updates the Bios (you may want to see if there is an update).

I have a really nice Asus Bamboo laptop that has this exact problem.

[noisyturtle]

I love all these articles about 10 being forced on users, and here I am wanting to upgrade and finding it impossible. I actually had a few MS engineers over for beers a week ago and even they couldn't figure out why the prompt wan't tripping on my system. 3 MS software engineers in my apartment trying to get 10 to work on my legit copy of 7 on my completely compatible system for almost an hour and a half with no luck. Guess I'm the one ****ing guy on the planet who actually wants it and can't get it.

I'm going to bet that it's an early Core I system using EFI.

In any case, it probably will not run Win 8.1 and has to do with the bios/efi system. There's nothing MS can do until the manufacturer updates the Bios (you may want to see if there is an update).

I have a really nice Asus Bamboo laptop that has this exact problem.

It actually is an Asus mobo. If you just solved this mystery I will be very impressed.

We even did the direct download option and burned an iso disc and neither worked.

[xtrafrood]

I love all these articles about 10 being forced on users, and here I am wanting to upgrade and finding it impossible. I actually had a few MS engineers over for beers a week ago and even they couldn't figure out why the prompt wan't tripping on my system. 3 MS software engineers in my apartment trying to get 10 to work on my legit copy of 7 on my completely compatible system for almost an hour and a half with no luck. Guess I'm the one ****ing guy on the planet who actually wants it and can't get it.

I'm going to bet that it's an early Core I system using EFI.

In any case, it probably will not run Win 8.1 and has to do with the bios/efi system. There's nothing MS can do until the manufacturer updates the Bios (you may want to see if there is an update).

I have a really nice Asus Bamboo laptop that has this exact problem.

I had to manually trigger the event myself. Sounds like a load of tough luck

[fohat.digs]

3 MS software engineers in my apartment trying to get 10 to work on my legit copy of 7 on my completely compatible system for almost an hour and a half

If you just solved this mystery I will be very impressed.

I will not be surprised in the slightest if Leslieann knows more about the real world than "3 MS software engineers"

[Leslieann]

I love all these articles about 10 being forced on users, and here I am wanting to upgrade and finding it impossible. I actually had a few MS engineers over for beers a week ago and even they couldn't figure out why the prompt wan't tripping on my system. 3 MS software engineers in my apartment trying to get 10 to work on my legit copy of 7 on my completely compatible system for almost an hour and a half with no luck. Guess I'm the one ****ing guy on the planet who actually wants it and can't get it.

I'm going to bet that it's an early Core I system using EFI.

In any case, it probably will not run Win 8.1 and has to do with the bios/efi system. There's nothing MS can do until the manufacturer updates the Bios (you may want to see if there is an update).

I have a really nice Asus Bamboo laptop that has this exact problem.

It actually is an Asus mobo. If you just solved this mystery I will be very impressed.

I almost added that it was probably an Asus board, but changed it. )

At first I thought it was the hybrid graphics, but that didn't solve the issue and I found other systems with standard graphics had the same problem. Others suspected the nic. I went through and disabled everything I could, I even removed the wireless, no luck. Eventually I stumbled on something that talked about how the ACPI system on Win 8 was different than 8.1. I swapped out the ACPI system on 8.1 to 8.0 (took a few hours)  and actually got it to start booting, however, I'm not going down that road. One update could crash it again, or it may not even be stable. I don't know if it would even work at all with 10.

These are just some of the Asus laptops that can't go beyond Win 8.0 that I tracked down. It's no small problem as you can see.
U1F
U1
S6F
S6
U6
U2E
U6V
U33JC
U43J
U43JC
U43SD

[Leslieann]

I will not be surprised in the slightest if Leslieann knows more about the real world than "3 MS software engineers"

MS engineers aren't dumb, but most have little real world experience, they went to school and were handed problems out of a book and expected to solve it, by the book. When the book no longer applies, they're often fish out of water. It's why I wouldn't hired trained techs, I much prefer people who learned on their own, they know how to problem solve.  I don't care if you don't know how to do something, if you can troubleshoot and have good Google-Fu, you can fix almost anything (if it can be fixed).

While MS people deal with MS products, I have to deal with all the software and hardware offices use to keep running. I may work on something tomorrow I have never seen before and I will never see again, I still have to figure out how to fix it. You can't really teach that in a classroom.

I had to manually trigger the event myself. Sounds like a load of tough luck

I manually triggered it, used a disk, tried a fresh install.

All Asus has to do to fix it, is get an update from AMI who makes the bios, but they won't do it.  I like Asus products, but their support leaves a lot to be desired, few companies actually have good support.

[iLLucionist]

Recently, a friend of mine asked me to help him upgrade from Vista to 10. It was a nightmare. Actually, I had to revert back to Vista and tell that friend to keep it at that.

Any Vista system is going to be quite old, I've gotten to the point I rarely will even work on anything that isn't at least Win7 era (preferably late Win7), and I won't upgrade anything (hardware-wise) not on DDR3. It's just too troublesome and expensive for what you get in return. Trying to jump to jump 1 os generation is bad, but 4? This should never, EVER be done, it needs to be backed up and installed fresh. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the odds are very much against you, plus, each update brings new baggage to the system, tons of wear and tear, it just creates a mess. This is one good thing about 10's update system, it purges everything and only keeps what it needs, rather than actually updating (it does bad things as well though).


More importantly though, by year 4, spinning drive life tends to spiral downward at an increasing rate, what you just did was probably the worst workout that system has EVER experienced. I've killed newer systems just by giving them a good cleaning and tune up, don't be surprised if your friends system sh*ts the bed within the next few months, possibly days. You may want to warn them, and get a backup system in place.

If I was asked to do this, I would have done a thorough check on the system before I touched anything (system specs, temps, drive health, how much dust is in the box), then image it, do a fresh install of 7, put their data back on and call it done. That's IF I would even touch it, systems that old are just too delicate to work that hard.

Very good point. That was the whole problem. I was asked to help WHEN EVERYTHING already went haywire. Basically, once the desktop showed, the computer kept logging out, rebooting, and so forth. It was a night mare. I needed to use Safe Mode to revert back to win vista. I told the friend just to hold out, do a fresh reinstall or to buy another PC. I don't do windows anymore, it always gave me headaches. And people are cheap. They buy crap and expect you – as the nerd – to fix all the stuff they were to cheap to pay for. Like "why can't I play Farcray on 90xFSAA on 2560x1440 with a Geforce Ti 4600" (bit overstated, but you get the point). Or "5400 rpm is a large number. Why is it slow?"

[iLLucionist]

I've heard there's been a change to MS's EULA re: access to private files. Can someone confirm or deny? Reason I'm asking: the EULA is the only thing that prevents me from accepting the free upgrade.

I dunno about changes. But isn't the EULA as is with win10 worse enough that it prevents you from upgrading?

The original EULA certainly was that bad, but I've heard people say MS has changed it.

There's a thread on reddit about it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3f69pi/does_windows_10_really_allow_microsoft_to_access/

Thanks! Good to read the details and specifics.

[iLLucionist]

I love all these articles about 10 being forced on users, and here I am wanting to upgrade and finding it impossible. I actually had a few MS engineers over for beers a week ago and even they couldn't figure out why the prompt wan't tripping on my system. 3 MS software engineers in my apartment trying to get 10 to work on my legit copy of 7 on my completely compatible system for almost an hour and a half with no luck. Guess I'm the one ****ing guy on the planet who actually wants it and can't get it.

god loves you. he protects you. he shields you from the danger that is win10 ;-)

[SBJ]

Actually went to Win10 about a month ago now and I didn't install GeForce Experience. I haven't had a single freeze. It's been running rock solid. I am very happy with Win10 atm.

[yomammary]

Same here, running Win10 both at home and at work and all is well.

[fohat.digs]

Me, too. Once I cleared all the crap off the desk top so that I didn't have to look at those stupid "tiles" it has been excellent.

[katushkin]

New Skype update sucks major ****.

No volume controls at all, it doesn't even appear in the system equaliser section, and in group conversations it defaults to the last message and not the last unread message. Also the preview thing you could close once keeps appearing every time you click on a new window.

Why did they think this was a good idea?

[katushkin]

NO IMAGE PREVIEWS EITHER WHY GOD WHY

[xtrafrood]

Oh hey, Microsoft Update. Thanks for Enabling Cortana, reinstalling OneDrive, and reinstalling Skype. You're the best Microsoft

[Vittra]

Are you referring to the Anniversary Update 1607? It actually kept Cortana disabled for me.

While it's marketed as an update, it's realistically something between a service pack and new OS. Consider it Windows 10.1 essentially. The OS treats it as a brand new OS - you'll notice much like an OS "upgrade" it will have created .old folder locations for data not brought over in the migration, such as Windows.Old and Default.Old

Any major feature updates moving forward may re-enable default OS apps and settings such as Cortana and Onedrive, unfortunately.

[xtrafrood]

I mean, it only takes a few minutes to revert the changes but the deployment could be handled differently imho

[fohat.digs]

Are you referring to the Anniversary Update 1607?

It actually kept Cortana disabled for me.

Same here. Did not resurrect Bing either, and kept Firefox as the default browser.

Generally painless for me, but I got lucky.

[bastones]

New Skype update sucks major ****.

No volume controls at all, it doesn't even appear in the system equaliser section, and in group conversations it defaults to the last message and not the last unread message. Also the preview thing you could close once keeps appearing every time you click on a new window.

Why did they think this was a good idea?

Unfortunately Skype has been a pile of crap for a while. It's absolute ****, thanks to Microsoft.

[katushkin]

Oh hey, Microsoft Update. Thanks for Enabling Cortana, reinstalling OneDrive, and reinstalling Skype. You're the best Microsoft

One Drive is actually really good if you have other devices that use it. On my Windows phone, pictures would appear almost instantaneously on my PC when I took them on my phone.

I have discovered that you can still use the old skype rather than the integrated one. Just make sure you open actual skype before you get a call or it will resort to the integrated version.

[Fire Brand]

I'd like to point out for the Anniversary update everytime I install it GPU crashes, revert back its fine seems to be a common thing people are having with RX480s currently too, well looks like I'll never be getting windows updates again .-.

[rowdy]

Are you referring to the Anniversary Update 1607?

It actually kept Cortana disabled for me.

Same here. Did not resurrect Bing either, and kept Firefox as the default browser.

Generally painless for me, but I got lucky.

I've moved away from Windows at work to a Mac - I got lucky too

[katushkin]

Still getting random boots. Happened twice this week at 11:20pm each time.

Tried powercfg -lastwake tried wake reason tried wake timers, sleep timers, what can wake my machine, turned them all off. Still does it. It ****ing annoys me.

[xtrafrood]

I learned about safe boot recently. My first time with UEFI and I got f***ed. Some kind of kill switch was triggered and windows tried to wipe the partition on the next boot. Damn ASUS, even after a reinstall of Windows 10 I had to fix a boot loop. OEM bull****. At the very least MS has honored the activation. I guess that counts for something. Next time I'm either buying from System 76 or Acer.

[iLLucionist]

Any tips on doing a light weight win7 install and PREVENTING the telemetry / auto update crapstuff to get backported to 7 via updates?

I really need some advice here... I don't want Win10. I'd rather not have nightmares.

[fohat.digs]

Search for Leslieann's replies. She has commented on this several times and given good advice.

[iLLucionist]

Search for Leslieann's replies. She has commented on this several times and given good advice.

Thanks! Hopefully I can enjoy some games without MS keylogging all I do.

[xtrafrood]

I gave up on using Wine with Linux and went ahead and installed Windows 10 alongside Linux Mint. I've read a lot of forum posts that say install Windows 10 first but the process was relatively painless. Some partition resizing. Some partition juggling. Gparted Live was an immense help. I'm a visual person, sometimes I make mistakes when I'm gooey-less.

[iLLucionist]

I gave up on using Wine with Linux and went ahead and installed Windows 10 alongside Linux Mint. I've read a lot of forum posts that say install Windows 10 first but the process was relatively painless. Some partition resizing. Some partition juggling. Gparted Live was an immense help. I'm a visual person, sometimes I make mistakes when I'm gooey-less.

Aren't you offset by the telemetry / auto-updating?

[xtrafrood]

I gave up on using Wine with Linux and went ahead and installed Windows 10 alongside Linux Mint. I've read a lot of forum posts that say install Windows 10 first but the process was relatively painless. Some partition resizing. Some partition juggling. Gparted Live was an immense help. I'm a visual person, sometimes I make mistakes when I'm gooey-less.

Aren't you offset by the telemetry / auto-updating?

Well, I only use it for gaming and Fusion 360 so I can give myself a small window of time for updates. I'd rather use Linux Mint as my daily driver for seamless operation that I can count on. If I was to put on some big boy doodling pants in the future I don't know what i'll do. 

[xtrafrood]

A lot of you probably know what data is collected from Windows 10 but for those that don't that information was recently released.

Infoworld - Microsoft finally reveals what data Windows 10 collects from your PC

Sum it up a bit..

There are two levels of diagnostic data: basic and full.

Some of the data collection is from browsing habits. Surprise surprise.

[SpAmRaY]

A lot of you probably know what data is collected from Windows 10 but for those that don't that information was recently released.

Infoworld - Microsoft finally reveals what data Windows 10 collects from your PC

Sum it up a bit..

There are two levels of diagnostic data: basic and full.

Some of the data collection is from browsing habits. Surprise surprise.

Wow so umm  yeah....pretty much everything when using full mode.

 A few that stick out..cursor position...how much of a book you've read....url of a video if there is an error....

I find it hard to believe aggregating all of that data doesn't cause a huge performance hit (or maybe it does?).

I have noticed when my laptop sits idle the processor peaks and the fans kick on so its doing something even though it shouldn't be. 

I may roll it back to win7, I like win10 fine (even though its creepy) but can't get the previous OS upgrade to actually update, it downloads, tries to install, then loops.

[Findecanor]

A good summary of it. He used to work at Microsoft, with Windows updates.

[Tally810]

The fact that they take the number on your phones Sim card is pretty crazy.

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

[xtrafrood]

Ubuntu Gnome is a thing. And it will be an even better thing in 2018.. just sayin'

[tp4tissue]

A lot of you probably know what data is collected from Windows 10 but for those that don't that information was recently released.

Infoworld - Microsoft finally reveals what data Windows 10 collects from your PC

Sum it up a bit..

There are two levels of diagnostic data: basic and full.

Some of the data collection is from browsing habits. Surprise surprise.

Wow so umm  yeah....pretty much everything when using full mode.

 A few that stick out..cursor position...how much of a book you've read....url of a video if there is an error....

I find it hard to believe aggregating all of that data doesn't cause a huge performance hit (or maybe it does?).

I have noticed when my laptop sits idle the processor peaks and the fans kick on so its doing something even though it shouldn't be. 

I may roll it back to win7, I like win10 fine (even though its creepy) but can't get the previous OS upgrade to actually update, it downloads, tries to install, then loops.

you need an old build of win 7  because the new one comes with the same telemetry package like the NEW windows 10..

[Elrick]

you need an old build of win 7  because the new one comes with the same telemetry package like the NEW windows 10..

That is in fact the absolute LAST version of Windows worth owning and using on any PC hardware.

Love Windows 7 Enterprise 64bit, the ONLY Redmond creation worth owning. Everything after that, is pure excrement on every level  .

[Leslieann]

To eliminate all telemetry on Win7, you need to go back prior to July 2016, it was at that point they started slipping in bits and pieces of it a little at a time.

Newer versions you can still simply uninstall the patches, but it's a pretty extensive list (there are batch files to automate this), provided it's before the massive rollup and update changes and remember, it's never as clean to remove than to have never been installed in the first place.


Also something to keep in mind on newer updates on Win7, 8, 8.1 and 10.
MS has been really sh*tty about not admitting to what is in the patches, and now they have resorted to not only altering the registry entries related to telemetry but also hard coding in the system so you can't stop it with registry hacks alone.  This has all been done in the Creators update, no word on how back ported all of this is, but considering how far MS is pushing this, I wouldn't be surprised if they back port them and even list them as security updates.

Oh, and these "mistaken" rollback to default settings on Win10 updates, are not accidents, they want you to just give up and use Edge instead of fighting it. MS puts a lot of effort into making sure this doesn't happen and it certainly wouldn't accidentally happen multiple times in a row. Same when they "accidentally" installed Win10 without permission.

[iLLucionist]

Ubuntu Gnome is a thing. And it will be an even better thing in 2018.. just sayin'

XFCE all the way baby. Just sayin'.

[xtrafrood]

Ubuntu Gnome is a thing. And it will be an even better thing in 2018.. just sayin'

XFCE all the way baby. Just sayin'.

I'd take XFCE over Gnome for 17.04. My system is fine with Tumbleweed Gnome VM but it did not like Ubuntu Gnome 17.04 VM

Creators edition introduces un-obfuscatable telemetry. But hey, Cortana will now ask you annoying questions when you boot into the DE. Win, Win. I'm seriously considering a jump to Apple for my big box software needs.

[iLLucionist]

Ubuntu Gnome is a thing. And it will be an even better thing in 2018.. just sayin'

XFCE all the way baby. Just sayin'.

I'd take XFCE over Gnome for 17.04. My system is fine with Tumbleweed Gnome VM but it did not like Ubuntu Gnome 17.04 VM

Creators edition introduces un-obfuscatable telemetry. But hey, Cortana will now ask you annoying questions when you boot into the DE. Win, Win. I'm seriously considering a jump to Apple for my big box software needs.

Wait... what? What happened?

I'm about to pull the trigger on the Lenovo X1 Carbon 2017 (i5-7300U, 16GB mem, 1 TB NVME SSD).. but it comes with creators or signature edition Win10. I thought the OS was reasonably OK and fast... but they upped on telemetry?

As I use it mainly to do work (MS Office, Latex, SPSS, R, Python, MPlus), I thought I use Win10 for work and do the downloading and semilegal stuff on a dual-boot linux to escape telemetry and make a linked partition to save the crap to, as I won't be downloading constantly.

BUUUT... I thought of something... I guess most people will now take the "F**K MS WIN10 --> Linux"-route. How long will it take before MS injects telemetry in a rootkit / bios and even running linux they will log your keystrokes etc? I mean.. UEFI / secureboot was also their idea to lock people out of installing anything other than Microshaft windblows.

[Leslieann]

Here is the complete list of what it collects. Keep in mind 90% of this is what BASIC collects, the last 10% is what FULL collects.
https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields

If I were buying a new laptop, I'd be reloading it as soon as I got home.

[iLLucionist]

Here is the complete list of what it collects. Keep in mind 90% of this is what BASIC collects, the last 10% is what FULL collects.
https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields

If I were buying a new laptop, I'd be reloading it as soon as I got home.

Hmmm by the looks of it Windows collect SO much low-level info that it would be possible to run your processes from their servers almost, replicate your running instance of the OS and its apps. Man, this goes far. Like "battery level"? Whether you changed hardware? Whether you changed BIOS settings? wtf

[SBJ]

Here is the complete list of what it collects. Keep in mind 90% of this is what BASIC collects, the last 10% is what FULL collects.
https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields

If I were buying a new laptop, I'd be reloading it as soon as I got home.

Hmmm by the looks of it Windows collect SO much low-level info that it would be possible to run your processes from their servers almost, replicate your running instance of the OS and its apps. Man, this goes far. Like "battery level"? Whether you changed hardware? Whether you changed BIOS settings? wtf

Yeah it's total wtf, and if it wasn't for the fact that I played video games on my Windows machine I wouldn't have one M$ machine in my house. **** that noise.

[SpAmRaY]

My main windows 10 PC after it updated this weekend is almost unusable to browse the web.

It works in ~25-30 second intervals then freezes for 5-10 seconds then works....

[iLLucionist]

My main windows 10 PC after it updated this weekend is almost unusable to browse the web.

It works in ~25-30 second intervals then freezes for 5-10 seconds then works....

I would never touch Win again (except for gaming) if it weren't for the fact I REALLY NEED MS Office for work (and SPSS only runs semi-decent on win, it drags on os x and linux). Oh and lightroom, illustrator, and photoshop. There are no really good substitutes for those in linux still. Such a shame. AND DON'T TELL ME INKSCAPE AND GIMP.