4K HDR Guide, What you need to know. [LONG]

[tp4tissue]

4K HDR: High Dynamic Range 

It is a combination of a few different technologies/ metrics that the Cartel is pushing.

Contrast ratio
Peak Brightness
10/12 Bit Color Channel
Wide Color Gamut
4K/8K resolution



ANSI - Contrast Ratio:

The single most important metric for displays. The higher the ratio, the deeper / more vivid / saturated the image looks.  Higher contrast ratio is always better.

This is what makes an image POP. The higher the contrast ratio, the more HDR looking the image, (even if all other metrics are worse, the higher CR display will look better most of the time).

This number is the Division of the Brightest White vs the Darkest Black that the screen can display Simultaneously on a single image.

So the Brightest white for example is 300nits, and the black is 0.06nits, That represents a contrast ratio of 5000:1. Which is very good for a backlit LCD.

For an HDR looking image on LCD, we really want to stay ABOVE 2000:1 contrast ratio. Otherwise the blacks will be Blown out by the backlight and look very bright grey, resulting in a less vivid-image.

On OLED, because it can produce real black, the Contrast ratio is Infinity:1, even better, most vivid image. The downside is OLED pixel transition is more blurry in motion, this is a problem for Fast Pace Movies, for slower movies, chic flix, OLED greatly surpass LCD.





Projectors: ~80:1 - 800:1 (room lighting dependent, Unsuitable for HDR)

IPS panel: ~600-1200:1  (very grey blacks, Unsuitable for HDR in dark rooms, Workable HDR in VERY BRIGHT ROOMS)

VA panel: ~3000:1 (pc monitor),  2800-6000:1 (tv sizes)

OLED: Infinity:1 (theoretical), ~20,000:1 (in practice)

Light-Modulated IPS (best display, not yet widely available): ~20,000:1



Peak Brightness:

This is the brightest white that a display can produce.

Higher is better.

OLED, very weak peak brightness, To reach 600-1000nit can do serious damage to the pixels (burn in).  OLEDs are designed so that they allow max brightness for a very short duration to give you A TASTE. This practice is ok for the most part, because peak brightness during color grading is reserved for highlight use, such as lasers/fires/clouds,  These are not persistent elements to movies.

LCD, Strong peak brightness, NO burn-in consequence, Can deliver constant HOT Eye melting whites. Limitation, on LCDs, to deliver 1000nit whites, the surrounding pixels infront of that LED backlight will be hitting 0.2nit blacks, this causes in some cases a washing out of black/dark color detail. This is why they began to separate the LCD backlight into local zones, to preserve black detail in areas of the screen that are not part of the Highlight detail.

The dimming zones are a good addition, but this does cause blooming, as the led lights up typically a large round area, and this shape does not track perfectly with the highlight detail itself.

Light-Modulated LCD, this is the GREATEST HDR tech, and will come within the next 2-3 years. A double LCD panel which has 1 black/white layer to control individual pixel brightness, and a 2nd layer for color and brightness.  This effectively produces the Same contrast performance as OLED, yet retains the advantages of LCD. It is pure awesome, you can buy one today and see for yourself, Eizo CG3145 for $30,000-50,000.



10/12 bit Color Channel:


Any display DEVICE has a real physical color space. That color space is there independent of what bit-mapping is used. You can have 8 Bit HDR, 10 bit HDR, 12 bit HDR.

m0ar bits means a finer gradation between pixel mapping values.  In practice, because most image processors/ softwares use dithering, there is NO tremendous visible improvement between 8/10/12 bit input/output.  This is especially true for real images. You may be able to spot 8/10 bit differences on a test pattern specifically designed to tease this attribute out of a lineup. But on a Real picture of say a prairie, a forest, mountain, spaceship, it's nearly impossible to see the difference at typical viewing distances.

When they try to sell you 10bit, they will pick a tv that does image processing very badly, this is not the fault of 8 bit, it's just a bad (cheap) image processor.


Wide Color Gamut:

We've had WCG for a long time. AdobeRGB monitors are an example of WCG. in fact its total color volume is higher than the current HDR Spec DCI-P3.

The Final goal is Rec2020 which is larger than P3, and larger than Adobe, but AT THE MOMENT, we only have the technology to produce DCI-P3. Even though, on the data side, we use the rec2020 container. All studios are grading their movies in DCI-p3, there are no rec2020 grading monitors in wide use.

WCG comes in currently 2 flavors. PFS phosphor, and Quantum Dot. Panels using these techs both produce nearly the full P3 gamut.

Quantum Dot is the superior tech, it has faster light decay, resulting in a sharper moving image than PFS phosphor or other WCG phosphors.


4K/8K resolution:

There will be No 8K content for a LONG while, even most 4K blurays sold today are 2K upscales. The reason for this is because it takes a long time to Build up Process chains on the production side.

Displays ~65 inch , 4K is more than enough.  But now that we're moving to 85" and 100+, 8K will become necessary.

There is however a realistic limitation as people's living rooms typically do not have more than 20 feet. You wouldn't watch more than an 80/90 inch at that distance. You could, it'd just be pointless.

So 8K , may well be the Final resolution for future SINGLE displays. Unless they start building bigger houses for everyone.



UPDATE:

2020,  Hisense could upset the market.. with Light Modulated VA panel..

Hisense's new -ULED-XD- line.

-OLED like black levels, 

-LCD lvl brightness (Oled simply will never match LCD brightness, EVER),

-NO white dots (oled fake brightness booster).

-Quantum dye (WIde Gamut), 

-Extreme Motion clarity. (Lightboost/ULMB) !!


Right now Oled can do Peak 600nits, this is using White boosted pixels, which means to reach that brightness, the Oled is actually color casting white over the actual pixel color.

Hisense's Modulated VA will not have to do that. It will be able to do 1000 nit+ allegedly 2900nit possible w/ current power constraints. Importantly, it can deliver that highlight peak w/ COLOR, not just white.

Above 1000nit is still not as easy and straightforward because we're talking REALLY HOT TVs.. probably needs active cooling, Dolby pulsar monitors were water-cooled @ 4000nit.

Even then, 1000nit is already eye melting brightness.  2000nit would be icing on the cake, but it's not absolutely necessary.

Most HDR content is mastered to 1000nit. We won't need 1000+ for a very long time.


Comes down to price,  if they can bring this tech out @ $1000-1500,  Unstoppable.


The hardest part of this process according to Hisense is the Custom controller which needs to control 2 seperate cells in 2 different panels simultaneously,  AND a precision bonding process to MATE 2 different panels.

[SpAmRaY]

How does the sound factor in?

Full theatre 7.1 required?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[tp4tissue]

How does the sound factor in?

Full theatre 7.1 required?

Sound has mainly been an Up-selling racket.  There has been no major improvement to sound since CDs came out.

Even if someone is very into the Kewlaid, 5.1 surround is more than enough.

I've never been that impressed by Dolby Atmos's 2 extra speakers. and the production side doesn't seem to take advantage of it either, because they don't expect most people to bother.

Especially now that millennials have decided that the SOUND BAR is the NEW STANDARD FOR HIFI.

[SpAmRaY]

How does the sound factor in?

Full theatre 7.1 required?

Sound has mainly been an Up-selling racket.  There has been no major improvement to sound since CDs came out.

Even if someone is very into the Kewlaid, 5.1 surround is more than enough.

I've never been that impressed by Dolby Atmos's 2 extra speakers. and the production side doesn't seem to take advantage of it either, because they don't expect most people to bother.

Especially now that millennials have decided that the SOUND BAR is the NEW STANDARD FOR HIFI.

My soundbar has wireless rears and a sub.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[azhdar]

Can we see your movie theather tp4?

[tp4tissue]

My soundbar has wireless rears and a sub.

Exactly, Ur Gud'2'Go.. it's 90% as good as $20,000 monsters enthusiasts buy.

I would say add a 12 inch sub for deeper bass, but other than that, most of the other gears are frivolous. 

[tp4tissue]

Can we see your movie theather tp4?

Tp4 command center = secret.

[SBJ]

Can we see your movie theather tp4?

Tp4 command center = secret.

Is it messy? Are you stockpiling stuff you shouldn't be?

[azhdar]

Without proof i'll assume it's a ****ty HD 33" TV

[tp4tissue]

Without proof i'll assume it's a ****ty HD 33" TV

Hahahahha, Well currently Tp4 am watching a shi77y $433, 55" nu7300 samsung..

It's calibrated though, so still less shi77y than most $1000 tvs.


Not 100% happy with it, but I refuse to spend > $500 because I have no use for a TV > 300nits. with only 4000-5000:1 contrast, 0.05 nits is the max you want the curve to bottom out such that it still looks reasonably black.

At 500nits or 800 nits on the more expensive sets, the blacks look too gray, and the peak highlights hurt your eyes in the dark. That is to say, these TVs are Too-bright and Not-Dark-Enough at the same time.


As you all know Tp4 is a cave dweller. 300nit is really the max for LCD at the moment for Dark space.

THIS IS ONLY RELEVANT TO TP4 and Other Cave Aficionados.



IF Anyone ELSE is out to buy a 4K tv, and they don't intend to Calibrate,  Please DO GET the 500nit/ 800nit TVs,  they will be better for the bulk of general use cases.

Tp4 recommends Sony,  they're like the German, play by the rules,

Samsung/TCL/everyone else cheat in some way that really messes with the Director's intent. 

[azhdar]

Ye so my setup is vastly superior to yours.
Do you think you can teach me anything ?

[tp4tissue]

Ye so my setup is vastly superior to yours.
Do you think you can teach me anything ?

Which TV are you using ?

[azhdar]

Ye so my setup is vastly superior to yours.
Do you think you can teach me anything ?

Which TV are you using ?

TV is flor plebs.
Optoma HD20. random Yamaha amp.
85" fit me irl

https://imgur.com/gallery/nNC3HN9

[tp4tissue]

TV is flor plebs.
Optoma HD20. random Yamaha amp.
85" fit me irl

https://imgur.com/gallery/nNC3HN9

Very neat.

The White walls/ceiling/ Grey carpet have to go, your actual ANSI-contrast ratio right now is ~ 30 to 50:1.

There is too much light pollution for either SDR or HDR playback.

Tp4 ran an Epson 8500ub until 2015, even with black wall + ceiling, concrete gray floors, Tp4 only managed ~430:1 measured ansi-contrast.

This is why Tp4 eventually quit projectors, because it plain didn't look good vs VA tvs w/ 4000:1
 , even IPS tvs pushed 800:1

430:1 is worse than an LCD from 2003.


Projectors have a size advantage, but Flat panels have surpassed projectors in terms of image quality since 2002.

[azhdar]

In France if you pay Television licence (not expensive) for possessing a TV.
Not for projectors.
French TV programs are ****, I don't want to watch them or pay for it.
So projector it is.

Also the image may not be as good as new 4K HDR TV, but I like having a mini cinema in my living room.

[tp4tissue]

In France if you pay Television licence (not expensive) for possessing a TV.
Not for projectors.
French TV programs are ****, I don't want to watch them or pay for it.
So projector it is.

Also the image may not be as good as new 4K HDR TV, but I like having a mini cinema in my living room.

Tp4 read that french females m0ar wear less even on public tv, is this true ?

[azhdar]

In France if you pay Television licence (not expensive) for possessing a TV.
Not for projectors.
French TV programs are ****, I don't want to watch them or pay for it.
So projector it is.

Also the image may not be as good as new 4K HDR TV, but I like having a mini cinema in my living room.

Tp4 read that french females m0ar wear less even on public tv, is this true ?

engrish por favor

[tp4tissue]

2020,  Hisense could upset the market.. with Light Modulated VA panel..

Hisense's new -ULED-XD- line.

-OLED like black levels, 

-LCD lvl brightness (Oled simply will never match LCD brightness, EVER),

-NO white dots (oled fake brightness booster).

-Quantum dye (WIde Gamut), 

-Extreme Motion clarity. (Lightboost/ULMB) !!


Right now Oled can do Peak 600nits, this is using White boosted pixels, which means to reach that brightness, the Oled is actually color casting white over the actual pixel color.

Hisense's Modulated VA will not have to do that. It will be able to do 1000 nit+ allegedly 2900nit possible w/ current power constraints. Importantly, it can deliver that highlight peak w/ COLOR, not just white.

Above 1000nit is still not as easy and straightforward because we're talking REALLY HOT TVs.. probably needs active cooling, Dolby pulsar monitors were water-cooled @ 4000nit.

Even then, 1000nit is already eye melting brightness.  2000nit would be icing on the cake, but it's not absolutely necessary.

Most HDR content is mastered to 1000nit. We won't need 1000+ for a very long time.


Comes down to price,  if they can bring this tech out @ $1000-1500,  Unstoppable.


The hardest part of this process according to Hisense is the Custom controller which needs to control 2 seperate cells in 2 different panels simultaneously,  AND a precision bonding process to MATE 2 different panels.

[JP]

TP4, Why do you know so much about displays and such? I use a computer screen or TV as most people do but give no thought to the technology or specifications.

[tp4tissue]

TP4, Why do you know so much about displays and such? I use a computer screen or TV as most people do but give no thought to the technology or specifications.

U know how people used to go outside and know which side the moss grows on trees, and in what direction the sun faces at what time of day.

Tp4 does not know any of that. 

Other things Tp4 doesn't know, never properly memorized.

50 states.
New Mexico is in the United States.
When seasons officially begin and end.
What to do when it rains.
Make bread
GameCube stuff.


We take all of this General Wild Human knowledge,  Replace it with specific Ind00r-life information.

[JP]

Time to go outdoors again 

[tp4tissue]

Time to go outdoors again 

Obviously, Tp4 does go outside,  Costco is outside. Watermelon is outside, but overall outdoor activity is limited (not so much a choice, merely pragmatism), even gardening is restricted to backyard.


The bulk of OG-outdoor activities do not make sense in a digital lifestyle. The entertainment/pleasure payoff is typically inefficient.


It's like Going to the Movies,  when there's Netflix...  Same type of efficiency difference..

Or,   Going on Vacation,  after HDTV.. now UHD-TV...

You can fly all the way to egypt, and see LESS than you would a documentary.

It's not the same,  but why does it have to be, if anything it's MUCH BETTER, and cost reduced.

[JP]

Gotta get that vitamin D and those tan lines.

[tp4tissue]

Gotta get that vitamin D and those tan lines.

Tp4 just reroofed the outdoor shed..  only 100 square feet, but as a novice roofer w/out a roofing tommygun, it took 3 days , 8 hours per day,

15minutes of sunlight is enough to get all daily requierment of Vit D,  Tp4 now has a theoretical 3 Month stockpile.

Aware that, this isn't how it works, but, Tp4 also gardens.

R00fing skillz ++

[JP]

Gotta get that vitamin D and those tan lines.

Tp4 just reroofed the outdoor shed..  only 100 square feet, but as a novice, it took 3 days , 8 hours per day,

15minutes of sunlight is enough to get all daily requierment of Vit D,  Tp4 now has a theoretical 3 Month stockpile.

Aware that, this isn't how it works, but, Tp4 also gardens.

Nice. I'm sure you learned something from it though. Either you learned you don't wanna do it again or you have the skills to do that job quicker. Also that's the different between novices /amateurs and pros. The pros usually have more tools and experience on hand to do things easier.