Author Topic: Now or then?  (Read 10751 times)

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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 07:12:21 »

I can't believe you're this old and this naive..


I truly feel sorry for you. Your life must suck.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 10:53:57 »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Your delineations are broad, undefined, and useless

I can't believe you're this old and this naive..

None of those nouns you speak of are concrete ideas..

They are complex extensions as means to an end.


What end.


The human system of desire is very simple.


It is a ruler that when used, always gets shorter.


Drink enough wine,   one needs more wine

Smoke enough cigarettes,  one needs more cigarettes

Have sex enough with the wife,   one seeks the company of enterprise women.

As with drugs, as with wealth, as with happiness, as with all desires.



True damnation is not big-brother, and salvation is far from ideological law..


We have and always will be up against a very biological evolutionary barrier as enforced by the hedonistic response system of the human limbic system..





I truly feel sorry for you. Your life must suck.


Hahaha..

says the person whose life is almost over and has learned nothing from it ..

Offline rowdy

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 22:03:40 »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Your delineations are broad, undefined, and useless

I can't believe you're this old and this naive..

None of those nouns you speak of are concrete ideas..

They are complex extensions as means to an end.


What end.


The human system of desire is very simple.


It is a ruler that when used, always gets shorter.


Drink enough wine,   one needs more wine

Smoke enough cigarettes,  one needs more cigarettes

Have sex enough with the wife,   one seeks the company of enterprise women.

As with drugs, as with wealth, as with happiness, as with all desires.



True damnation is not big-brother, and salvation is far from ideological law..


We have and always will be up against a very biological evolutionary barrier as enforced by the hedonistic response system of the human limbic system..





I truly feel sorry for you. Your life must suck.


Hahaha..

says the person whose life is almost over and has learned nothing from it ..

Kids these days have most of their lives online - without a constant connection and a continual stream of incoming data they feel disconnected, as if they are not part of one enormous whole.  And they have to transmit everything they do in order to feel significant in a world burgeoning under the load of 7,000,000,000 people.

Back in the day you could get by just being yourself in your own way in your own space.  Optimism that there was something better to grow towards.

But is this it?  Do you find yourself asking, "Is this all there is?  Is there no more?"

For in today's world if you're not connected you risk missing out on the latest crazes from far corners of the world.  Your optimism is controlled by the large corporations.  Your own humble contribution pales to insignificance in a vast ocean of everyone else connected to the grid, but isolated in their own private torment.

When was the last time you saw someone genuinely happy with life?
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 21 August 2017, 22:57:45 »

Kids these days have most of their lives online - without a constant connection and a continual stream of incoming data they feel disconnected, as if they are not part of one enormous whole.  And they have to transmit everything they do in order to feel significant in a world burgeoning under the load of 7,000,000,000 people.

Back in the day you could get by just being yourself in your own way in your own space.  Optimism that there was something better to grow towards.

But is this it?  Do you find yourself asking, "Is this all there is?  Is there no more?"

For in today's world if you're not connected you risk missing out on the latest crazes from far corners of the world.  Your optimism is controlled by the large corporations.  Your own humble contribution pales to insignificance in a vast ocean of everyone else connected to the grid, but isolated in their own private torment.

When was the last time you saw someone genuinely happy with life?


The pursuit of happiness is the problem


The brain is only capable of receiving Finite Happiness.


Happiness is a chemical reaction

Across a certain threshold,  this reaction becomes neurotoxic.   THAT is the folly of man I'm talking about.



The small disconnect for most people looking from the superficial level, is that as if control is a matter of choice or higher decisions..


Rather this is a biological limit of the human motivational / pleasure system.



What the Superficial perspectives miss out, such as Fohat's narrow world view,   is that The chemical reaction that I'm talking about does not Necessarily have to be triggered by Substance abuse..


Our chemical evaluation system can be thwarted by persistence of habit,  even if that habit is generally innocuous,  in modern society , because any such habit can be unceasing within any person's lifetime,   The dopamine receptors WILL BE REDUCED,  leading to progressively worse decision pathways..



Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 19:18:44 »

The pursuit of happiness is the problem


= "when people are governed by forces of emotion, society is all but certain to become dysfunctional"
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 19:24:14 »

The pursuit of happiness is the problem


= "when people are governed by forces of emotion, society is all but certain to become dysfunctional"


No, that is incorrect.

General Happiness = elevated dopamine concentration


The Emotions in your usage, would cover a significantly vast manifestation of that Primary system.


It is not the consequences of those Complex extensions which doom humanity.


It is ONLY the core transmitter trimming system we have for evaluating risk/reward/pleasure/desire


Offline rowdy

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 22 August 2017, 21:58:19 »
Anyway, the question is whether you'd want to live in the past, present or future.

I was looking at some photos from Melbourne in the 1950s - life was so much simpler back then.  Less expectations.  More affordable.  Less crowding.  More common sense.  Less technology.  More time for people.

Today people seem more connected to technology than to other people.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline 9999hp

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 03 October 2017, 05:10:41 »
Anyway, the question is whether you'd want to live in the past, present or future.

I was looking at some photos from Melbourne in the 1950s - life was so much simpler back then.  Less expectations.  More affordable.  Less crowding.  More common sense.  Less technology.  More time for people.

Today people seem more connected to technology than to other people.

Life seemed a little more "loose" back then, like you could absolutely wing it, and at the end of the day you would still have a chance of being "alright", if you were smart enough. I feel like, at least in most portrayals of a few decades ago, you really had to screw up. Hell, a little earlier and you could totally be a criminal and still run away somewhere.

The future is always appealing to me, but it's kind of a toss up since it hasn't been written. If it's like Futurama it would be pretty amazing; if it were like Elysium I'd be downin' radAway for breakfast everyday when I worked the line.

 I think if given the choice, I would say the Future. Just because it's unknown and I wanna see it.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #58 on: Tue, 03 October 2017, 06:32:41 »
Anyway, the question is whether you'd want to live in the past, present or future.

I was looking at some photos from Melbourne in the 1950s - life was so much simpler back then.  Less expectations.  More affordable.  Less crowding.  More common sense.  Less technology.  More time for people.

Today people seem more connected to technology than to other people.

Life seemed a little more "loose" back then, like you could absolutely wing it, and at the end of the day you would still have a chance of being "alright", if you were smart enough. I feel like, at least in most portrayals of a few decades ago, you really had to screw up. Hell, a little earlier and you could totally be a criminal and still run away somewhere.

The future is always appealing to me, but it's kind of a toss up since it hasn't been written. If it's like Futurama it would be pretty amazing; if it were like Elysium I'd be downin' radAway for breakfast everyday when I worked the line.

 I think if given the choice, I would say the Future. Just because it's unknown and I wanna see it.

I think humanity has reached the awareness that the Future probably will not contain humans.

At least not as the fleshy bags that we are today..

We are only a little better than the cows that we eat..


Cybernetic organisms or even 1 Unified AI constructed by humans replacing flesh bag progeny is significantly more likely



See, it's all good, to have many multi core processors,   but you can only get so big without bandwidth between cores being the bottleneck.

Then eventually, the co-processors required to handle command hierarchy and communications consume all the processing time and resources..


Look at governments, banks and financial institutions, they are such co-processors. they have all the available resources at their finger tip,  but they are terribly inefficient at making objective decisions to advance mankind.


That is what human society has been held back on..    The sum of its parts is the next step..   and it can not be done through peace/love/government/capitalism..

We need to upload into a unified machine architecture which is much more compact, less bandwidth locked, has greater and more-durable memory.

Offline 9999hp

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #59 on: Tue, 03 October 2017, 17:54:27 »
Anyway, the question is whether you'd want to live in the past, present or future.

I was looking at some photos from Melbourne in the 1950s - life was so much simpler back then.  Less expectations.  More affordable.  Less crowding.  More common sense.  Less technology.  More time for people.

Today people seem more connected to technology than to other people.

Life seemed a little more "loose" back then, like you could absolutely wing it, and at the end of the day you would still have a chance of being "alright", if you were smart enough. I feel like, at least in most portrayals of a few decades ago, you really had to screw up. Hell, a little earlier and you could totally be a criminal and still run away somewhere.

The future is always appealing to me, but it's kind of a toss up since it hasn't been written. If it's like Futurama it would be pretty amazing; if it were like Elysium I'd be downin' radAway for breakfast everyday when I worked the line.

 I think if given the choice, I would say the Future. Just because it's unknown and I wanna see it.

I think humanity has reached the awareness that the Future probably will not contain humans.

At least not as the fleshy bags that we are today..

We are only a little better than the cows that we eat..


Cybernetic organisms or even 1 Unified AI constructed by humans replacing flesh bag progeny is significantly more likely



See, it's all good, to have many multi core processors,   but you can only get so big without bandwidth between cores being the bottleneck.

Then eventually, the co-processors required to handle command hierarchy and communications consume all the processing time and resources..


Look at governments, banks and financial institutions, they are such co-processors. they have all the available resources at their finger tip,  but they are terribly inefficient at making objective decisions to advance mankind.


That is what human society has been held back on..    The sum of its parts is the next step..   and it can not be done through peace/love/government/capitalism..

We need to upload into a unified machine architecture which is much more compact, less bandwidth locked, has greater and more-durable memory.

I have to disagree. Depending on the scale of time I think the hardiness of biological life in general is significantly more viable than current known and public technology can provide us.

The organisms/biological matter we are comprised of and come from are billions of years old, I mean there's even the idea of panspermia. If you are attached to the idea of life dominated by human bipedals, sure I guess I could buy a more dismal outlook.

We function like a mold now, if conditions are met, we proliferate. However, there are molds/parasites/bacteria that due to their biology can survive extreme biological hostility or universal indifference. Anthrax is one.

On average, I might believe we're worse off than a cow in the wild. However, the right persons might be vastly more prepared to survive long term than a cow as proven by history. After all, they're the ones in the slaughterhouses. Our trappings have to be a little more complex.

The idea of Society is a double-edged sword. It both propels us forward gradually and anchors us to the past. Capitalism/competition is the closest thing to "survival of the fittest" and culling uselessness, however the current reward and desired endgame is short-sighted which stunts progress. Very few people live to advance humanity purposefully through whatever means; culture, technology, quality of life etc. Generally its a hand-held, passive endeavor.

I think an AI or any synthetic organism is doomed without some built in sense of novelty. or human-like conscience/creativity/awareness. Any AI would function like an advanced mold unable to imagine its own advancement. It would consume until there is nothing more, then die or just exist; which in essence is death anyway.

If we DO manage to create an AI that contains that human aspect, or we pass that on to it, I don't see how that's different from evolution in the sense that it's still "human". Sure not your average flesh bag, but more of a "boltsbag". And absolute homogeny among organisms leads to stagnation, then death. Different perspectives are necessary. By having separate AIs you can solve your lack of processing power . And if they were individualized, then again it'd pretty much be humans again.

I think an advanced AI, with all the resources and tools of technology, with the human conscience/creativity aspect would function best in anarchy. There doesn't need to be any command heirarchy on that level, those who proliferate win, those who don't die and are phased out/assimilated.

But then it's just "boltbags" instead of flesh bags again.

Banks and large organizations function well in what they were designed to do. They were designed to be tools, the same will be for AI. It's a tool but until we can replicate the human creativity it will be inferior in terms of survival. In all representations of scifi (as far as I know), in AI vs Humans stories, generally AI/synthlife only has a foot hold because of the tools/resources at their fingertips and the humans struggle because of lack of resources. Should humans and AI stand on equal ground in terms of tools available and resources, the best humans will win.

Look at OpenAI and Dota. The program learned to master the game and challenge the highest top tier players in months I believe. Many people lost to it, however there were winner(s). And playing against this AI, it helped the top tier players learn new techniques which boosted their repertoire of available tools. Advancing the players even further than they could have come up with themselves currently.

At that point and level, humanity's biggest hang up will be believing everyone is necessary.

Depending on your definition of the last sentence, I guess what I'm getting at is that I agree with you haha.

Supposing all that is accomplishable, I think the next war beyond that would be which is superior? Synth life or engineered biological life? Could you imagine that being? Being able to take any traits of any biological lifeform and create an organism out of it.

Then it would be a matter of time before synth life and engi life merged as well, similarly how we would've in that scenario. Ever repeating. solve et coagula

I kind of ranted on, and I keep rereading it to see if it makes sense. I've given up now.


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #60 on: Tue, 03 October 2017, 18:14:24 »

-----
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I follow what you're saying.

But, I think you give humans too much credit in their ability for novelty and true agency.

Biological life is a small replicant function in the universal series of events.

It follows a very simple rule, convert mass into xxxx-form..

That's all any lifeform has ever done, and that's all humans have ever done.


There are these side quests that humans seem to have, but the main focus and taming of human energy has been towards converting some other mass/ energy,  INTO more humans.


I see no difference between ourselves and your delineation of -the doomed lifeless machines-


Human life can continue to spread in a 2 dimensional plane,  more humans , more space, maybe even onto more planets.

However,  without better bandwidth BETWEEN each human,  we are little more than scattered ant colonies with their own queens.


There is a limit to this way of protraction,  because space is incredibly vast..

We may be able to grow into the solar system in this way,  but it would be impossible to manage such a system between distantly habitable worlds.


That is the scope I've alluded to.


The correct path to cross such distance is with one giant durable machine.


One solar flare, and it's the end for earth, or our space ship, or our mars colony (100x less dense than earth atmosphere)..


Getting rid of our bodily limits must be the precursor to higher life.

Offline 9999hp

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Re: Now or then?
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 03 October 2017, 19:14:00 »

-----
-----


I follow what you're saying.

But, I think you give humans too much credit in their ability for novelty and true agency.

Biological life is a small replicant function in the universal series of events.

It follows a very simple rule, convert mass into xxxx-form..

That's all any lifeform has ever done, and that's all humans have ever done.


There are these side quests that humans seem to have, but the main focus and taming of human energy has been towards converting some other mass/ energy,  INTO more humans.


I see no difference between ourselves and your delineation of -the doomed lifeless machines-


Human life can continue to spread in a 2 dimensional plane,  more humans , more space, maybe even onto more planets.

However,  without better bandwidth BETWEEN each human,  we are little more than scattered ant colonies with their own queens.


There is a limit to this way of protraction,  because space is incredibly vast..

We may be able to grow into the solar system in this way,  but it would be impossible to manage such a system between distantly habitable worlds.


That is the scope I've alluded to.


The correct path to cross such distance is with one giant durable machine.


One solar flare, and it's the end for earth, or our space ship, or our mars colony (100x less dense than earth atmosphere)..


Getting rid of our bodily limits must be the precursor to higher life.

I can see how you'd think that. When I'm speaking generally, I agree on a whole I give too much credit. However, when applied on an individual level or small group level the result differs. Given actions are different than discussion. But here we are creating this universe in the ether, the only thing we lack is the means. The tools and resources. Which could be achieved by AI.

I'm strongly leaning to symbiosis between organic life and synth life..

Given that, had we all the utilities and tools, just imagining that world. We could've created it.

Now, I'm placing huge emphasis on the difference between Information (and the ability to store/transfer it) and creativity (the application of said information).

I disagree with the inference I'm making with what you said about converting mass into xxxx-form. I think you're downplaying the significance of it and drawing similarities that are misleading. Yes, people do the same thing as every organic being ever, but not only do we have creativity to adjust our productions, but also have knowledge of past productions and can build upon them. That to me, is the significant part. Its not special we do it, it's how we do it that's special.

"There are these side quests that humans seem to have, but the main focus and taming of human energy has been towards converting some other mass/ energy,  INTO more humans."

I agree with this, but I think this is programming. That's what, for the most part, we're taught by society and/or nature. Throw offspring at the problem until one of them figures out the next level. That's how nature does it.

On a whole right now it is fairly synonymous. We are currently on the same path as the doomed machines. Unless fate is real, I don't think that matters. All it takes is a few bombs to reset us, or a gradual positive change to adjust our course.

That's where the AI comes into play, the symbiosis. I'm not arguing for the continuation bipedal organisms. Just the consciousness. The machinery provides us with new vehicles to proliferate, the AI provides us the means to store vast amounts of informations and tools to use, and the consciousness applies ideas.

That's why I mentioned anarchy. The system need to be decentralized with maybe hub AI planets, like planet sized storage drives for local symbiotes to draw from.

I agree that our physical frailty needs to be transcended.

I don't think a single large ship would be efficient. As you said, it's too centralized and vulnerable to catastrophe.