Kavik's Diet

[Kavik]

I've been tracking my food intake for four and a half years, through weight loss, gain, and loss again. The last year and one quarter of that has been on Fitbit.com; before that, it was pen and paper.

According to Fitbit.com, these are apparently my most logged foods.



Milk, eggs, bread, butter, cheese, cream, and a bunch of refined sugars mostly.

After watching some of TP4's recommendations, I have decided to reduce or eliminate animal products from my diet after I have used up what I currently have on hand. I am skeptical, but I also see no downside to trying it. Even if I remain omnivorous, I need to eat more plants. It was rather bothersome to realize how few fruits and vegetables I eat on a consistent basis. I am also tired of not feeling satiated when I eat fewer than 3,000 Calories in a day - something that's not as much of an issue with plants since they are more filling per Calorie.

Some steps I have taken in the transitional phase are using almond milk for cereal and smoothies, making guacamole for chips instead of making them into nachos, and stocking fruit for snacks. I can't make the switch all at once, and I don't intend on never eating animal products again because there are too many restaurant dishes and such that I like that contain them, but I will reserve these for special occasions. I'm not sure I'll still have a taste for that stuff after a while however. I know from experience that not drinking pop/soda for extended periods of time causes them to taste bad when I do try them again.

[iri]

Your diet is terrible.

You need to decrease the amount of fat you consume, eliminate refined sugars completely, and add more vegetables to your diet. This has nothing to do with going vegetarian or vegan.

And why would you even read tp4's posts is beyond me.

[suicidal_orange]

How do you make eggs at home?!

Seriously though, good luck with it.  Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the transition.

[tp4tissue]

Looks good.

Refined sugar is not a huge problem, as long as you're getting Enough veggies.

Refined Fats is a major problem, and best minimized.

The sugar can cause some overeating, because it has a higher caloric density vs bread/rice/pasta,  but if your weight is stable @ 3000 calories, I don't think you'd be pushing much higher since you're probably near volume capacity..

You already know how I feel about milk and eggs.

Finally, WFPB is best, any movement in this direction is right..

Rice/Beans/Whole Wheat/Lentils is the healthiest main

[iri]

How do you make eggs at home?!

[Kavik]

Your diet is terrible.

You need to decrease the amount of fat you consume, eliminate refined sugars completely, and add more vegetables to your diet. This has nothing to do with going vegetarian or vegan.

And why would you even read tp4's posts is beyond me.

It's important to note that these are not the only foods I eat, just the most frequently logged (basically because milk, eggs, and toast or cereal are repetitive choices for breakfast; whereas, other meals have more variety). In response to your second and third sentences, I stated reducing or eliminating animal products (major source of fat, especially saturated) and adding more plants, so I think we're in agreement. As for having nothing to do with going vegetarian or vegan, those are a couple ways of doing it, and, at the very least, tendencies towards those diets are required for the stated goals.

Looks good.

Refined sugar is not a huge problem, as long as you're getting Enough veggies.

Refined Fats is a major problem, and best minimized.

The sugar can cause some overeating, because it has a higher caloric density vs bread/rice/pasta,  but if your weight is stable @ 3000 calories, I don't think you'd be pushing much higher since you're probably near volume capacity..

You already know how I feel about milk and eggs.

Finally, WFPB is best, any movement in this direction is right..

Rice/Beans/Whole Wheat/Lentils is the healthiest main

(Attachment Link)

My Calorie range for weight loss is around 1800-2100. Maintenance for me @160-165 lb is around 2300-ish. I just sometimes still feel deprived at that level when I'm not completely committed to dieting. I'm sure sugar and caffeine contribute to the extra hunger. A bowl of rice and broccoli is rather filling and <300 Calories, so I think it will help.

How do you make eggs at home?!

Seriously though, good luck with it.  Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the transition.

Heh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Some generic items in the Fitbit database just have wildly varying calorie counts, so it's easier to input my own version for consistency; hence the "homemade" egg.

[tp4tissue]

My Calorie range for weight loss is around 1800-2100. Maintenance for me @160-165 lb is around 2300-ish. I just sometimes still feel deprived at that level when I'm not completely committed to dieting. I'm sure sugar and caffeine contribute to the extra hunger. A bowl of rice and broccoli is rather filling and <300 Calories, so I think it will help.

Modern food psychology is centered around hedonistic eating.

It's often difficult for someone in a warm and fed society to differentiate between True-Hunger and Boredom-hunger

[Kavik]

Update:

Diet
I have not had a huge problem cutting out meat. Last night, I had enchiladas containing beef and chicken from a restaurant. That was the first meat I'd had since a week before when I finished off a bag of beef jerky, which was itself the first meat in about a week. So, I've basically reduced meat intake to once every 7-9 days in the past four weeks.

Dairy has been more difficult. I've had heavy cream in my coffee a couple times (basically just trying to use it up since I already have it), I've had frozen custard a few times, I've had cheese a few times, I had eggs and butter in the form of brownies and cakes that I baked, and I've been using up the last of my whey protein powder. Lately though, I've been having small amounts in candy via milk chocolate. This will take more work to cut out.

That said, the majority of my meals have been Life cereal with almond milk, rice with broccoli and/or baked potato and/or okra, salad (kale, spinach, celery, mushroom, strawberry, oil/vinegar), and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I have had an issue with not feeling satisfied, even if I am full, especially after just a salad, so that's when I will supplement with PB&J or PB and celery. Beverages have been water, coffee, tea, almond milk, and the occasional energy drink or Wild Cherry Pepsi.


Effects
As far as effects of the diet, it's hard to say anything for certain. I've been dealing with some chronic pain in my head/jaw/neck for years, and, since I started treating it in December, I've had some ups and downs. During this diet, I've had one of the worst downs (my first time catastrophizing pain, I think) and one of the better ups immediately following it (without needing meds to bear it). No idea if this is diet related; however, I have experienced similar things when doing water fasts (every old injury ever hurts severely for a day or two and then feels better than it did before, for example).

My stomach was also feeling really crappy at the start of this, but that had started beforehand and was probably a continuation of something unrelated. So I won't attribute any of that to this.

This may be venturing into TMI territory, so avert your eyes now if bothered by such things: tooting has increased and normal bowel movements are perhaps slightly easier, but there has been some diarrhea-ish activity. But I'm pretty sure I have IBS, which is triggered by caffeine consumption, so again it's hard to tell if any of the good or any of the bad is attributable to the diet changes.


Ultimately, more data and stricter adherence needed to form any conclusions.

[tp4tissue]

Avoid Beef and Dairy.

The US test very few of its cows for Mad Cow Disease. USA tests <1%, Jpn tests 100%, UK tests 80%.

And because of the loose regulation on these things for testing, only Older cows are tested.

Don't trust the system. the USDA and Big Beef is part of the revolving door scenario where the regulatory board members end up retiring to Big Beef or are appointed by big beef.

Mad Cow is a prion disease, cooking makes no difference.

[Sniping]

Update:

Diet
I have not had a huge problem cutting out meat. Last night, I had enchiladas containing beef and chicken from a restaurant. That was the first meat I'd had since a week before when I finished off a bag of beef jerky, which was itself the first meat in about a week. So, I've basically reduced meat intake to once every 7-9 days in the past four weeks.

Dairy has been more difficult. I've had heavy cream in my coffee a couple times (basically just trying to use it up since I already have it), I've had frozen custard a few times, I've had cheese a few times, I had eggs and butter in the form of brownies and cakes that I baked, and I've been using up the last of my whey protein powder. Lately though, I've been having small amounts in candy via milk chocolate. This will take more work to cut out.

That said, the majority of my meals have been Life cereal with almond milk, rice with broccoli and/or baked potato and/or okra, salad (kale, spinach, celery, mushroom, strawberry, oil/vinegar), and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I have had an issue with not feeling satisfied, even if I am full, especially after just a salad, so that's when I will supplement with PB&J or PB and celery. Beverages have been water, coffee, tea, almond milk, and the occasional energy drink or Wild Cherry Pepsi.


Effects
As far as effects of the diet, it's hard to say anything for certain. I've been dealing with some chronic pain in my head/jaw/neck for years, and, since I started treating it in December, I've had some ups and downs. During this diet, I've had one of the worst downs (my first time catastrophizing pain, I think) and one of the better ups immediately following it (without needing meds to bear it). No idea if this is diet related; however, I have experienced similar things when doing water fasts (every old injury ever hurts severely for a day or two and then feels better than it did before, for example).

My stomach was also feeling really crappy at the start of this, but that had started beforehand and was probably a continuation of something unrelated. So I won't attribute any of that to this.

This may be venturing into TMI territory, so avert your eyes now if bothered by such things: tooting has increased and normal bowel movements are perhaps slightly easier, but there has been some diarrhea-ish activity. But I'm pretty sure I have IBS, which is triggered by caffeine consumption, so again it's hard to tell if any of the good or any of the bad is attributable to the diet changes.


Ultimately, more data and stricter adherence needed to form any conclusions.

I see some tips of easy improvement here. You should cut the cereal because it doesn't keep you very full, and pretty high calorie density. Oatmeal is usually my go-to breakfast in place of cereal. I microwave oats submerged in water, with frozen fruits and a dash of cinnamon for 4 minutes. I top with more fruit, granola and honey. Cut the granola to reduce the caloric density. For a cream substitute, see if you can find soy creamer. Trader Joes sells it but I can't tell if yo'ure from the US. Honestly, the sweet treats are not too offensive, but you should make sure your main meals are quality. It honestly sounds like your meals are just a little haphazard. If you don't usually cook up a dish from a recipe, maybe you should try that so you have some structure in your meals to follow. When I'm craving something sweet at night cereal is on my list sometimes as well as a toaster waffle with some peanut butter, but the ideal food to have would just be some sweet fruit. I'm not going to fight the vegan war here, it can help but honestly you should fix your main food choices before worrying about cutting out all the meats and dairy. Having something like salmon and yogurt in your diet is pretty inoffensive and if you ate a balanced non vegan meal you could still be in great shape.

[tp4tissue]

I'm not going to fight the vegan war here, it can help but honestly you should fix your main food choices before worrying about cutting out all the meats and dairy. Having something like salmon and yogurt in your diet is pretty inoffensive and if you ate a balanced non vegan meal you could still be in great shape.

The dean of harvard nutrition has already clearly stated, (paraphrase) we fully understand the causal role Dairy plays in Prostate cancer.

Dairy also highly correlates with other hormone dependent cancers such as breast cancer.

Salmon, Like most fish eaten by humans are large and near the top of the marine food-chain. This means they are HIGHLY polluted due to Bio-Accumulation of Mercury, Radionuclides, Medical waste/Pesticides, and are a major source of Dioxins.

In fact, Marine mammals such as Dolphins often end up killing their first born, because the Dioxin concentration in their milk is too high for the baby.  We find a similar situation with Innuit humans, they are among the highest polluted population with toxic breast milk.

Yogurt, and Milk is especially terribad, because modern Cows are overloaded with hormones as they're milked while pregnant. Notice the high prevalence of Mewbies in United States men, it's not just because 'Muricans are phat,  it's the milk estrogen.

Contrary to popular belief, plant phytoestrogen such as that of soy actually binds to estrogen receptors Blocking the effect of real estrogen, reducing the incidence of hormone dependent cancers/ maladies.

NOT A SINGLE ANIMAL DRINKS MILK After ~ Age 1. This is by design.

Picture a person with his face on a COW' udder.  < Immediately > This is a revolting image. We intuitively know, that dude is messed up.

AND YET, that's exactly what every person who consume dairy products is doing.

NOT A SINGLE ANIMAL DRINKS THE MILK OF ANOTHER SPECIES. AGAIN, by design. The chemical and nutrient composition are vastly different between species. Cows milk consumption at an early age is the leading theory on the development of autoimmune disorders, and Type 1 Diabetes, whereby the autoimmune response kills the beta cells in the pancreas, leading to inability or reduced ability to produce insulin. < it is also possible to develop type 1 diabetes as an adult via the same pathogenesis. >
 

[Sniping]

I'm not going to fight the vegan war here, it can help but honestly you should fix your main food choices before worrying about cutting out all the meats and dairy. Having something like salmon and yogurt in your diet is pretty inoffensive and if you ate a balanced non vegan meal you could still be in great shape.

The dean of harvard nutrition has already clearly stated, (paraphrase) we fully understand the causal role Dairy plays in Prostate cancer.

Dairy also highly correlates with other hormone dependent cancers such as breast cancer.

Salmon, Like most fish eaten by humans are large and near the top of the marine food-chain. This means they are HIGHLY polluted due to Bio-Accumulation of Mercury, Radionuclides, Medical waste/Pesticides, and are a major source of Dioxins.

In fact, Marine mammals such as Dolphins often end up killing their first born, because the Dioxin concentration in their milk is too high for the baby.  We find a similar situation with Innuit humans, they are among the highest polluted population with toxic breast milk.

Yogurt, and Milk is especially terribad, because modern Cows are overloaded with hormones as they're milked while pregnant. Notice the high prevalence of Mewbies in United States men, it's not just because 'Muricans are phat,  it's the milk estrogen.

Contrary to popular belief, plant phytoestrogen such as that of soy actually binds to estrogen receptors Blocking the effect of real estrogen, reducing the incidence of hormone dependent cancers/ maladies.

NOT A SINGLE ANIMAL DRINKS MILK After ~ Age 1. This is by design.

Picture a person with his face on a COW' udder.  < Immediately > This is a revolting image. We intuitively know, that dude is messed up.

AND YET, that's exactly what every person who consume dairy products is doing.

NOT A SINGLE ANIMAL DRINKS THE MILK OF ANOTHER SPECIES. AGAIN, by design. The chemical and nutrient composition are vastly different between species. Cows milk consumption at an early age is the leading theory on the development of autoimmune disorders, and Type 1 Diabetes, whereby the autoimmune response kills the beta cells in the pancreas, leading to inability or reduced ability to produce insulin. < it is also possible to develop type 1 diabetes as an adult via the same pathogenesis. >
 

tp4...lets get something straight here. i was vegan for longer than you have been. don't give me the vegan lecture here, you think you've opened your third eye in food health but i promise you your cost optimized veg meals of rice, beans, and cabbage is not optimal nutrition. you're presenting the dr. greger preach in textual form, i know you've been drinking too much of the internet media kool aid. i've literally heard of every line of argument you've given me ages before you started regurgitating it. you literally just went scanning through my post to look for the one part of my post that even suggests it's okay to consume some form of meat/dairy product. you want to know what health is really made of? sustainable lifestyle. the diet advice you give is hardly actionable dude. no one knows what it means when you just tell people to eat more rice

[tp4tissue]

tp4...lets get something straight here. i was vegan for longer than you have been. don't give me the vegan lecture here, you think you've opened your third eye in food health but i promise you your cost optimized veg meals of rice, beans, and cabbage is not optimal nutrition. you're presenting the dr. greger preach in textual form, i know you've been drinking too much of the internet media kool aid. i've literally heard of every line of argument you've given me ages before you started regurgitating it. you literally just went scanning through my post to look for the one part of my post that even suggests it's okay to consume some form of meat/dairy product. you want to know what health is really made of? sustainable lifestyle. the diet advice you give is hardly actionable dude. no one knows what it means when you just tell people to eat more rice

There are significant reasons BEYOND health that require the entirety of humanity to switch to WFPB.

There is no Tp4 vs Sniping. I don't understand why you've read it as such if you've had Veggie-Xperience.

Animal agriculture is responsible for 87% of Green House Emissions, ONTOP of being the PRIMARY source of Pandemic potential Diseases/ All of humanity's major pandemics originate from Animals (smallpox, measles, HIV, Flu, etc).

Ultimately, Tp4 can point the direction, and when someone who crosses the critical thinking threshold come along, he will pick up ON HIS OWN the conflict of information and Verify for himself, AS TP4 Did.

Tp4 was instigated by a forum member here on Gekha, Photoelectric, in a Tp4 thread about sausages,   and a few days of internet later,  TP4 was Veggie 100% 4 LIFE.

[Kavik]

I see some tips of easy improvement here. You should cut the cereal because it doesn't keep you very full, and pretty high calorie density. Oatmeal is usually my go-to breakfast in place of cereal. I microwave oats submerged in water, with frozen fruits and a dash of cinnamon for 4 minutes. I top with more fruit, granola and honey. Cut the granola to reduce the caloric density. For a cream substitute, see if you can find soy creamer. Trader Joes sells it but I can't tell if yo'ure from the US. Honestly, the sweet treats are not too offensive, but you should make sure your main meals are quality. It honestly sounds like your meals are just a little haphazard. If you don't usually cook up a dish from a recipe, maybe you should try that so you have some structure in your meals to follow. When I'm craving something sweet at night cereal is on my list sometimes as well as a toaster waffle with some peanut butter, but the ideal food to have would just be some sweet fruit. I'm not going to fight the vegan war here, it can help but honestly you should fix your main food choices before worrying about cutting out all the meats and dairy. Having something like salmon and yogurt in your diet is pretty inoffensive and if you ate a balanced non vegan meal you could still be in great shape.

Thanks! Yes, the haphazard nature is multifactorial, but it is in part because I am being cheap and trying to use up stuff I have on hand while buying just a few things at the grocery store (I hate buying a bunch of stuff, especially fresh fruit, that doesn't get eaten or spoils). I'm also inexperienced in preparing meals without meat or dairy or eggs. I definitely need to check out some recipes; I think that would help a lot. I've been working through the same cylinder of Quaker Oatmeal for probably three years (maybe more), so I definitely need to finish that off!

My goal is a little nebulous, but the main thing is to see if I feel better by eating more plants, and I know that I won't do it if I have easier/old options available. I'm currently at an acceptable weight, so I've decided just to maintain right now, as long as I'm eating enough to fuel my attempts at working out.

[Sniping]

tp4...lets get something straight here. i was vegan for longer than you have been. don't give me the vegan lecture here, you think you've opened your third eye in food health but i promise you your cost optimized veg meals of rice, beans, and cabbage is not optimal nutrition. you're presenting the dr. greger preach in textual form, i know you've been drinking too much of the internet media kool aid. i've literally heard of every line of argument you've given me ages before you started regurgitating it. you literally just went scanning through my post to look for the one part of my post that even suggests it's okay to consume some form of meat/dairy product. you want to know what health is really made of? sustainable lifestyle. the diet advice you give is hardly actionable dude. no one knows what it means when you just tell people to eat more rice

There are significant reasons BEYOND health that require the entirety of humanity to switch to WFPB.

There is no Tp4 vs Sniping. I don't understand why you've read it as such if you've had Veggie-Xperience.

Animal agriculture is responsible for 87% of Green House Emissions, ONTOP of being the PRIMARY source of Pandemic potential Diseases/ All of humanity's major pandemics originate from Animals (smallpox, measles, HIV, Flu, etc).

Ultimately, Tp4 can point the direction, and when someone who crosses the critical thinking threshold come along, he will pick up ON HIS OWN the conflict of information and Verify for himself, AS TP4 Did.

Tp4 was instigated by a forum member here on Gekha, Photoelectric, in a Tp4 thread about sausages,   and a few days of internet later,  TP4 was Veggie 100% 4 LIFE.

there is definitely no ad hominem type of argument going on. i'm just saying that i've seen you doing this with everyone, but you're not going about it the right way. you have lots of good reasons about why one should be vegan...but i'm saying that you don't know how to go about being vegan. you're literally just causing people to try some extreme veggie diet and rebound in 3 weeks. why is it extreme? it's because you hardly give people any structure to live a sustainable vegan lifestyle. you give diet advice that's hardly actionable and i've seen it a bunch of times already, because you yourself don't understand what it means to live a sustainable vegan lifestyle yet. just telling someone they need to eat more cabbage, lentils and rice isn't an answer. that's like saying you can get better at playing at csgo simply by clicking on the enemy's heads.

Anyways, to OP: oatmeal is a good start for sure! it's basically a nutritious base that you can flavor any way you want. sometimes i add half a banana, sometimes some frozen berries, a small spoon of nut butter or nutella if i'm feeling a treat, and i usually top with granola and a drizzle of honey because it's tasty. i think some good things to always have on deck are fresh fruit, lots of frozen fruit (frozen mangos, pineapples, berries, bananas), and non dairy milk. if you have all those things, you're just minutes away from a nice smoothie that can serve as a breakfast substitute or a craving killer snack. if you're looking for a low fat pb alternative, pb2 is something that bodybuilders love to use. i'm happy with my current weight so i just use regular nut butter, but pb2 is great if you're hurting for a calorie cut. how about for main meals? i usually make enough rice for 2-3 meals. to reheat refrigerated rice, place the broken up rice on a pan, crank the heat to high, add 1 tablespoon water, cover with lid for 2 minutes, and the rice will reheat and hydrate itself with the steam from the water. if you like the meat route, chicken thighs and salmon are tasty, or if non meat then i usually like tofu scramble or lentil/bean stew. the key for me was to follow recipes and make sure you're seasoning properly and sufficiently. don't be afraid to splurge a little bit on herbs and spices you might not have yet because they last forever and the seasoning will make or break the taste of your food, and spices are very good for you. for quick veggies one of my favorites is soycutash frozen mix at trader joes, but i'll also use the steamer attachment with my rice cooker to steam up carrots/broccoli while i'm making rice.

[tp4tissue]

it's because you hardly give people any structure to live a sustainable vegan lifestyle. you give diet advice that's hardly actionable and i've seen it a bunch of times already, because you yourself don't understand what it means to live a sustainable vegan lifestyle yet. just telling someone they need to eat more cabbage, lentils and rice isn't an answer. that's like saying you can get better at playing at csgo simply by clicking on the enemy's heads.

Tp4 does not give people Diet Advice,  Tp4 gives people the TRUTH of WHY they need to go Veggie.

The rest is on them.  That is how every Vegan became Vegan, they read or hurd something,  then they figured out how to implement on their own.

I can certainly ANSWER QUESTIONS about diet , once a person has embarked upon the road.   But Tp4 cannot serve the Cart before the Horse.

Tp4 is the Doomsday Headline.  The Peeps who read the headline have the responsibility of deciding whether they want to live.

You're speaking as if there's something I could say that's immediately actionable, that people can do.   There's no such thing.

Tp4 can only tell peeps WHY they may consider doing this,  They have to then decide to do it at all, and what to do.

[iri]

I usually go with 150g german rye bread and 15g peanut butter for breakfast in plant based mode. That's 400kcal.

[Kavik]

I've been eating meat and/or cheese whenever I go to restaurants, but I haven't at home (with rare exception, like restaurant leftovers), but it's mainly been PB&J, chips & salsa, bananas, rice, potatoes (fries), and frozen fruit smoothies.

I'm going on a fishing trip this month during which I'll be eating freeze dried foods and fish, so I may try to do this in earnest in July if I still care.

[Kavik]

My diet has returned to crap, lots of frozen food and restaurant food (SALT!). The only real lasting effect of this attempt at diet change was switching to almond milk. I prefer it now unless I'm eating chocolate or a cookie. On cereal and in a smoothie, it's better than milk.

I did finally use up all my rice, peanut butter, and oatmeal, so that was a nice effect of the diet (I had what seemed like tons stocked up that wouldn't go away).

[tp4tissue]

My diet has returned to crap, lots of frozen food and restaurant food (SALT!). The only real lasting effect of this attempt at diet change was switching to almond milk. I prefer it now unless I'm eating chocolate or a cookie. On cereal and in a smoothie, it's better than milk.

I did finally use up all my rice, peanut butter, and oatmeal, so that was a nice effect of the diet (I had what seemed like tons stocked up that wouldn't go away).

Anything is better than cow's milk, the Turbo Fuel for Prostate/Breast Cancer.

[tacomn]

Animal products are definitely not the enemy and are some of the best super foods. I have tried a number of "Diets", I say Diets loosely as because diets do not work, diets are a temporary thing that is usually a massive restriction of said food usually a restriction of one or maybe 2 macronutrient groups either carbs, fats or, proteins.

But the best I have ever felt and also the best gains I ever got was my time with working with a professional trainer who was a professional bodybuilder and dietician. I would have my meals based around on the macros, so not counting calories. For me at my weight and goals I would eat 50 grams protein 50 grams of carbs and 17 grams of fat per each meal. I would eat only when I was hungry and when I did eat, it was always a meal made up of that same macro balance.

In terms of food choices, for the options of fat would be like Olive/coconut/walnut oil/grass fed cattle butter. For carbs only came from fruits  and green vegetables. For proteins came from foods like omega-3 eggs, free range chicken, Raw grass fed milk, non fat greek yogurt, non fat cottage cheese, soy , grass fed beef or  small wild fish for protein.

Basically the diet is all Paleo, the philosophy is we are made to eat foods that are not refined or processed. Basically stick to only the foods you could find in nature before humans starting to process foods and refine things like grains. You do not want that stuff as we are not built to digest these foods easily into usable energy and all the nutrients are robbed by the altering or heating process.

[tp4tissue]

Animal products are definitely not the enemy and are some of the best super foods.

Basically the diet is all Paleo, the philosophy is we are made to eat foods that are not refined or processed. Basically stick to only the foods you could find in nature before humans starting to process foods and refine things like grains. You do not want that stuff as we are not built to digest these foods easily into usable energy and all the nutrients are robbed by the altering or heating process.

That is completely untrue.  Humans are not fundamentally omnivores.  We are Herbivores.

Check out the documentary, "The Game Changers (2018)".

Eating meat at your paleo-diet quantity is an extremely modern invention, ONLY recently possible due to technology.

In the wild, it is nearly impossible to acquire the daily necessary calories from animals without Very Advanced weaponry and tools that only existed far beyond the stone age.

Evolutionarily speaking, we have not had significant adaptations SINCE the stone age to digest large quantities of animal foods.

Animal foods is the primary cause of Cancer, Diabetes and Heart Disease.

[yui]

That is completely untrue.  Humans are not fundamentally omnivores.  We are Herbivores.

We still need a lot of iron and proteins that are rather rare in plants, especially women do, only recently extraction and plant based barely sufficient iron and protein source exists, for males it is not too big of an issue but some females can die from iron deficiency (i know of 2 who had severe health problems, both hate the taste of meat but still need to eat a bit (about 100g per week), doctor's order in order to not die) so yeah if you are male or a lucky/old enough female meat is very much optional but not for everybody.
and i very much hate the diagram that you show quite often because it simply forget so much data that it becomes plain wrong and a laughing stock, if you look at it vegetable diet is both the best and worse, it only works if you only eat raw or steamed/boiled vegetables, and sorry i think no one here does. most oil is vegetable oil and fried vegetable soak up oil like sponges
and even though i say that i either will go vegetarian for a few weeks, eat the cat food or go buy meat during lockdown... i think i will take the 1st option.

[tp4tissue]

We still need a lot of iron and proteins that are rather rare in plants

Completely untrue.  ALL PROTEINS are made by plants. ALL.

There is no lack of Iron , in fact the Heme iron from animal flesh is TOXIC and carcinogenic.

[tacomn]

What do you mean is toxic? I am tired working at the moment but I will mark this to come back and post some things. Vegetarian can be healthy but needs to be on point with their diet otherwise they will have to supplement to get certain vitamins. Going Vegan, I can not see how you can do it healthy, your diet can not sustain your body's requirements and you will need to take a-lot of supplements.

Iron is important but with no animal diet you really need to look out for also lacking in vitamins such as b 12. You will most likely need to do outside supplementation to keep adequate levels.

[tp4tissue]

What do you mean is toxic? I am tired working at the moment but I will mark this to come back and post some things. Vegetarian can be healthy but needs to be on point with their diet otherwise they will have to supplement to get certain vitamins. Going Vegan, I can not see how you can do it healthy, your diet can not sustain your body's requirements and you will need to take a-lot of supplements.

Iron is important but with no animal diet you really need to look out for also lacking in vitamins such as b 12. You will most likely need to do outside supplementation to keep adequate levels.

You gotta do more digging. We're stuck in a very trump world where facts are inconvenient.

B12 is made by soil bacteria. It is not produced _by animals_

Humans today drink chlorinated water and wash all food of soil, which is why modern humans can become deficient in B12.

Modern COWS are also deficient in B12, because they are typically raised on corn and soybean.  The only reason the Beef/Chicken/Pork you eat today CONTAINS B12, is because they are supplemented with B12 in their FEED.

So to say, someone eats meat gets B12, is the SAME as second hand Supplementation.

B12 supplements are also PRODUCED by bacterial culture it's 100% as good as the real thing, it IS the real thing.

Vegans and Meat Eaters alike have approximately the SAME % of B12 deficiency rate.

There are no other known critical supplementation for Vegans except B12, which in reality EVERYONE should be supplementing..

[noisyturtle]

does tp realize he is a living negative stereotype for vegans? does that not bother tp?

[yui]

does tp realize he is a living negative stereotype for vegans? does that not bother tp?

i already told him that being that intense with it will only drive peoples away and make them think of him as a lunatic, and so is counter productive, but it did not do much to change him...

[hwood34]

does tp realize he is a living negative stereotype for vegans? does that not bother tp?

i already told him that being that intense with it will only drive peoples away and make them think of him as a lunatic, and so is counter productive, but it did not do much to change him...

you really don't know tp do you lol

but I don't really see the problem, he's just pushing back on anti-vegan arguments that have been debunked again and again

[tp4tissue]

does tp realize he is a living negative stereotype for vegans? does that not bother tp?

i already told him that being that intense with it will only drive peoples away and make them think of him as a lunatic, and so is counter productive, but it did not do much to change him...

you really don't know tp do you lol

but I don't really see the problem, he's just pushing back on anti-vegan arguments that have been debunked again and again

Correct, Tp4 will never bow to meat-eater ignorance / bullying.

Meat consumption is the #1 cause of Climate Change and Cancer/ Heart disease/ Diabetes.


@ NTurt,    You may recall, Tp4 WAS a rampant meat-eater, popeyes enthusiast, UNTIL, on this Very-Gekha,  someone changed his mind.   

Everyone has blind spots and prejudices.  There are 2 types of people, Those willing to Verify/ Learn/ Improve, and there are Trump voters.

[kurplop]

TP, have you watched the various “Game Changer debunked” videos on YouTube? I’m curious about your opinion of them. They seem to offer compelling arguments that refute most of GC’s claims.
My own experience and that of my daughter (she was a vegetarian for five years) make me think that the best diet for most humans is one that includes a generous amount of vegetables and fruits as well as meat and dairy. That combined with a lifestyle which includes a balanced amount of exercise, rest, sleep, sunshine, socializing and lifetime learning, provides a framework that best resists the effects of disease and time.
If your plant based diet works, I’m happy for you. My daughter had side effects which went away, only after going back to a mixed diet. Large amounts of grain and beans give me cramps and gas. I am probably stronger and healthier than most people one third my age (66) so the meat, cheese, and eggs seem to work for me.

[tp4tissue]

TP, have you watched the various “Game Changer debunked” videos on YouTube? I’m curious about your opinion of them. They seem to offer compelling arguments that refute most of GC’s claims.
My own experience and that of my daughter (she was a vegetarian for five years) make me think that the best diet for most humans is one that includes a generous amount of vegetables and fruits as well as meat and dairy. That combined with a lifestyle which includes a balanced amount of exercise, rest, sleep, sunshine, socializing and lifetime learning, provides a framework that best resists the effects of disease and time.
If your plant based diet works, I’m happy for you. My daughter had side effects which went away, only after going back to a mixed diet. Large amounts of grain and beans give me cramps and gas. I am probably stronger and healthier than most people one third my age (66) so the meat, cheese, and eggs seem to work for me.

Yes, the debunk has already been thoroughly debunked.

The most popular debunk after the initial movie release was the one on Joe Rogan's channel. LATER ON, they invited the co-creator of the The Game Changers, James Wilks, to come on, and the original debunker was made a fool of. You can watch that for yourself. Even in the youtube notes, it's clear that the original debunk was a Fraud.

Everything in The Game Changers documentary comes from the highest source, Harvard nutrition, Cambridge, Cornell, etc, every scene is bibliographed, cited.

Humans are Herbivores.

[kurplop]

I look forward to seeing it. I admit that it will take a lot to convince me that what has worked so well for me and those close to me is unhealthy. The last 15 minutes of the documentary reveal the worldview behind the blind adherence to PB diets. The so-called evidence seems weak to us without that mindset.

[tp4tissue]

I look forward to seeing it. I admit that it will take a lot to convince me that what has worked so well for me and those close to me is unhealthy. The last 15 minutes of the documentary reveal the worldview behind the blind adherence to PB diets. The so-called evidence seems weak to us without that mindset.

We are extremely sure, at the highest level of science that Christianity is bull****.

Refined ideologies and New-World-Viewes take time to trickle down.   Most people were SURE Jesus walked on water, just as they are sure today that Humans must eat meat.

Our experts have pointed the way. It's now your civic duty to unravel for oneself what is better for the environment and your personal health.

A whole food plant based system is critically important to the survival of the earth bio-sphere.

[kurplop]

If you are right, you have no reason to be threatened by me. One day soon, I’ll just collapse from coronary failure while eating a steak and the world will be safe for the gynecomastic grazers left.

[tp4tissue]

If you are right, you have no reason to be threatened by me. One day soon, I’ll just collapse from coronary failure while eating a steak and the world will be safe for the gynecomastic grazers left.

It's an issue because billions of humans give themselves the same one-liners.

We have ~20 years to reverse climate change,  then it's famine time. Potentially extinction.

Australia, California, Oregan, those fires are not accidents.

[kurplop]

I'm sure the scientific community, that you put so much faith in, will come up with something.

[tp4tissue]

I'm sure the scientific community, that you put so much faith in, will come up with something.

They did,  it's on the rest of us now.

[noisyturtle]

@ NTurt,    You may recall, Tp4 WAS a rampant meat-eater, popeyes enthusiast, UNTIL, on this Very-Gekha,  someone changed his mind.   

Totally, you used to wax poetic about the glory of Popeye's. the good ol days. I never knew another GH got you going vegan.

[kurplop]

So the real issue is the environment and not personal health. That’s what I figured.

I only got a few minutes into the Rogan piece so I can’t comment much on it now. I’m not sure I want to invest three hours watching it. But then, if the fate of the planet is on the line, maybe I’d better.

[yui]

does tp realize he is a living negative stereotype for vegans? does that not bother tp?

i already told him that being that intense with it will only drive peoples away and make them think of him as a lunatic, and so is counter productive, but it did not do much to change him...

you really don't know tp do you lol

but I don't really see the problem, he's just pushing back on anti-vegan arguments that have been debunked again and again

no he is not only pushing back he is also pushing himself on peoples who never asked anything and then when they push back he continues. he is hurting the vegan community far more than helping it that way, he scares peoples but hey, just trying to help everyone here, if you'd rather continue with trying to fear peoples into veganism, and then see them fail go for it, and i do only know tp from his post on this forum. i kinda hopped it was just a persona and someone reasonable was behind, i may have been wrong... and sorry but round earth has been debunked by plenty of peoples on the internet too... still i am pretty sure the earth is round, so i do agree that most peoples eat way too much meat (above 50g per day is too much in all cases) but we can't just all switch at once. personally i only eat meat when either i make food for someone else or try a recipe containing some, when i do it is less than 100g a week, start by making peoples eat less before none at all, it will have a much bigger impact on the short and long run.
for whose who care, my weekly diet is when i do not forget to eat:
660g apples (6 small apples)
200g peanut butter (with the apples)
i have not weighted the potatoes but 4 to 7 potatoes
cabbage (1 head of cabbage can last 2 to 3 weeks)
one or 2 eggs
300g bell pepper or spinach depending on what i have on hands
0 to 100g of meat or fish
and maybe other nick and nacks to replace something from time to time but with covid it has been fairly stable.
next to that i am trying to help the environment by reusing and repairing pc and other electronics, using my car as little as i can, using as little heating as i can, shower is set at 24°C, no TV, my most recent PC atm is from 2013, the meat is not the only problem right now and if you do not pay attention your veggies can be pretty much as damaging as the meat that others eat...
tp4 went 180 from fast-food meat lover to full vegan, there is also a middle ground that is far less scary and so easier to reach for now and then easier to go from there to full vegan, i am preaching that middle ground that will make transition easier and make a huge dent in the over consumption that we have today. but extremism will fight everything that is not its own camp and will only create jaded opposite extremists out of reasonable peoples (look at the state of the world right now, extremists only ever create conflicts and opposite extremists).

[hwood34]

many words

it's really not that serious lol

[yui]

many words

it's really not that serious lol

i find that when giving dietary advice it is pretty much always serious, as someone can try to follow them, and may get health issues down the road, and although i do not take my health that seriously (forgetting to eat and all that), i take other's very seriously and do not want to let my actions or lack of it get other's harmed.
any health advice should either be given seriously or with a disclaimer that it is a joke, it is dangerous otherwise as peoples in our day and age thrust random peoples on the internet far too much.
All that to explain why i take all of that maybe a bit too seriously.

[tacomn]

I will point out that "Gamechangers" is in some ways heavily flawed and fails to a number of research biases. Also some of the posters in this thread are assuming that if you eat any animal products you automatically are getting it from mass produced slaughter houses, which provide zero nutritional value.

I am not going to start going and posting Studies / Scholarly research that may seem to say how healthy certain animal products may be for your health. Nor am I going to post studies on some potential health concerns that can be found in studies on vegetarian/ veganism diets. Both can be found rather easily skimming through research studies on the topics. I will also point out it is massively important to know the source of said studies and who is funding it.

At the end of the day food choice is super important, you are what you eat. It is massively important not to be myopic and think of things so black or white. It should be easy to see that someone who eats no meat but eats heavily processed "Junk food" and sugars is not going to be healthier than someone you eats very select diets with sourcing in both good animal products, but also all the rest of the diet including vegetables and fruits. Same, it is easy to say the opposite if comparing a fat blob meat eater that eats only fast food to a vegan professional athlete who sources only the best non processed products.

[iri]

TP, have you watched the various “Game Changer debunked” videos on YouTube? I’m curious about your opinion of them. They seem to offer compelling arguments that refute most of GC’s claims.
My own experience and that of my daughter (she was a vegetarian for five years) make me think that the best diet for most humans is one that includes a generous amount of vegetables and fruits as well as meat and dairy. That combined with a lifestyle which includes a balanced amount of exercise, rest, sleep, sunshine, socializing and lifetime learning, provides a framework that best resists the effects of disease and time.
If your plant based diet works, I’m happy for you. My daughter had side effects which went away, only after going back to a mixed diet. Large amounts of grain and beans give me cramps and gas. I am probably stronger and healthier than most people one third my age (66) so the meat, cheese, and eggs seem to work for me.

The wise words that will fall on the deaf ears.

[tp4tissue]

0 to 100g of meat or fish  BAD
one or 2 eggs  VERY BAD

tp4 went 180 from fast-food meat lover to full vegan, there is also a middle ground that is far less scary and so easier to reach for now and then easier to go from there to full vegan, i am preaching that middle ground that will make transition easier and make a huge dent in the over consumption that we have today. but extremism will fight everything that is not its own camp and will only create jaded opposite extremists out of reasonable peoples (look at the state of the world right now, extremists only ever create conflicts and opposite extremists).

You're stuck in that asian mentality. 中庸 (ZhongYong), from Confucianism. This has been the prevailing ideology implicitly handed down in the East.

However, there is a time, and place for that short of thing. We are out of time on climate change. Improvements need to happen NOW.

At the edge of a cliff, You can bet we need Extreme resolve not dive the abyss.

[tp4tissue]

If your plant based diet works, I’m happy for you. My daughter had side effects which went away, only after going back to a mixed diet. Large amounts of grain and beans give me cramps and gas. I am probably stronger and healthier than most people one third my age (66) so the meat, cheese, and eggs seem to work for me.

There's a bit more complexity to going plant based. It's not hard, but it's more than beans = protein.

Firstly not all people can eat a large quantity of beans right away, it takes time to culture the new set of gut biom adapted to beans digestion.

Regarding beans specifically, eating smaller quantities, (half a can's worth a day, over several meals) for a few weeks will improve the body's ability to work with the new substance.

if you take the quantity of <meat> and just change it to beans, that's way too high. If you look at people of Mexican descent, they can eat a tramendous quantity and not feel bloated.  It takes some time to develop.

With plant based, another issue is managing caloric density. During any type of food-diet transition, most people ON AVERAGE are eating less calories than they'd normally eat due to the preperation/decision friction.  It's often in this time period that they lose the most weight, Only to put back on later.     In the case of Plant based, even if you're not trying to lose weight, this period may represent a less optimal energy state for the body, causing the client to feel unbalanced..  Lots of whole wheat bread and veggie soup is a good place to start, because you can put down alot really fast.

[yui]

0 to 100g of meat or fish  BAD
one or 2 eggs  VERY BAD

tp4 went 180 from fast-food meat lover to full vegan, there is also a middle ground that is far less scary and so easier to reach for now and then easier to go from there to full vegan, i am preaching that middle ground that will make transition easier and make a huge dent in the over consumption that we have today. but extremism will fight everything that is not its own camp and will only create jaded opposite extremists out of reasonable peoples (look at the state of the world right now, extremists only ever create conflicts and opposite extremists).

You're stuck in that asian mentality. 中庸 (ZhongYong), from Confucianism. This has been the prevailing ideology implicitly handed down in the East.

However, there is a time, and place for that short of thing. We are out of time on climate change. Improvements need to happen NOW.

At the edge of a cliff, You can bet we need Extreme resolve not dive the abyss.

1 the figures i gave you are Weekly, not daily, so calm down your bad and very bad, and what would you rather do, nothing, or slowly move peoples away, because masses have inertia and you are like a fly to a freight train, you are not gonna make it move if it does not want to, and 180 is not what a train can do on the spot, it needs to slow down and then it can go backward, that process is slow but better than nothing at all (and it is pretty much what you end up doing, if not adding a bit more speed as you create extremist one the other side), i am only trying to help you reach your goal is a timely manner, if you do not want to listen then continue to fail...

and yeah nuts also = protein and are damn tasty, peanut/cashew butter on everything.

[tp4tissue]

1 the figures i gave you are Weekly, not daily, so calm down your bad and very bad, and what would you rather do, nothing, or slowly move peoples away, because masses have inertia and you are like a fly to a freight train, you are not gonna make it move if it does not want to, and 180 is not what a train can do on the spot, it needs to slow down and then it can go backward, that process is slow but better than nothing at all (and it is pretty much what you end up doing, if not adding a bit more speed as you create extremist one the other side), i am only trying to help you reach your goal is a timely manner, if you do not want to listen then continue to fail...

and yeah nuts also = protein and are damn tasty, peanut/cashew butter on everything.

Any egg = too many.
Animal proteins = poison.

You can say freight trains slow then reverse.  But at the PERSONAL level, it's all crashes. Heartdisease+ Cancer account for ~30-50% of all deaths.  There is a 25% chance your very first heart attack kills you.  Of all the things to not roll on.

Then collectively, this is not just a personal choice with personal consequences. The totality of toxic consumption is generating the greatest destruction to the ecosystem.

[Kavik]

Man, this thread blew up. It's just about what I am eating, not what anyone else should or shouldn't be eating. The purpose really boils down to this sentence in the first post: "Even if I remain omnivorous, I need to eat more plants." Regardless of one's dietary views, that seems like a good thing to strive towards. At this point, I don't have a desire to be extreme with this diet anymore, but I do want to continue eating more vegetables and fruits.

I can say a few things of my recent personal experience though. I didn't feel better when my diet was supposedly better. The pain issues I have experienced are unrelated apparently. Issues with my gut seem mostly caffeine related. For a few weeks in August/September, I had no caffeine and was eating only yogurt, soup, and milkshakes, and all IBS symptoms vanished. Too bad I like coffee and iced tea.