Author Topic: Ergodox Wrist Strain  (Read 9035 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Usarise

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 55
  • Location: New Jersey
Ergodox Wrist Strain
« on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 16:26:14 »
Hey all!  I was trying to see if anyone else had the same issues with their ergodox as I am, but i couldn't find a thread so I made one~

*edit*
Sorry hit the enter key on the dox before I was done typing.

So I've been using my new ergodox for a few days and I think i've gotten decently used to the new layout... my speed is still about 1/4 of my usual, but Im getting the keys most correct now.

So after using it for any amount of time, I find my wrists feeling strained...  I have wrist rests so I thought that would help.  I think the problem comes that I've never used the home row typing style... I always just used 4 fingers and flew everywhere over the keyboard.  Would the sudden change in technique have to do with the strain?  I have never felt it before when typing as I usually do.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 March 2015, 16:29:35 by Usarise »

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 17:01:14 »
Can you take a photo (or ideally short video) of your typing showing your forearms/wrists/hands and the way the keyboard is set up on the table?

It’s really hard to judge people’s technique or offer advice just based on a few sentences of text description.

For me personally, the advantage of a keyboard like the Ergodox is that it can be set up “tented”, with the inner columns of the keyboard raised higher than the outside, “turned” in a bit, and “tilted” up or down from front–back to match the height of the table relative to the chair / the angle of the arms.

The goal should be to get the wrists into as straight and neutral a posture as possible. I’d personally recommend against trying to use a palmrest (or resting the palms/wrists on any surface, in general) while typing.

Ergodox-like keyboards definitely take some getting used to.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 March 2015, 17:06:13 by jacobolus »

Offline Usarise

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 55
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 17:25:54 »
Sure:

https://youtu.be/ltcGakfUVaA

Just took a quick one with my phone.  Wish I had my usual model m to type on, but I left it at uni.  The membrane one will suffice I think for showing.

I know I'm not entirely used to typing on the ergo, but I didn't think it would be that different that how i usually do.  ( I got it mostly for the uniqueness factor I guess)

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 18:16:45 »
The video does barely show your wrists at all.

Still suboptimal, but something like this:

Offline Usarise

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 55
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 18:54:46 »
The video does barely show your wrists at all.

Still suboptimal, but something like this:
Just tried doing something like that.  Sorry for the shaking... I used a bic pen and some string to mount my phone to the case of my PC.
https://youtu.be/nKiNod6lHbo
Hope that helps a bit more!

Offline nomaded

  • Posts: 197
  • Location: Andover, MA
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 19:08:01 »
A couple suggestions after watching your 1st video:

1)  You have the 2 halves of the ErgoDox too close together. I would suggest about 3 or 4 inches between the thumb clusters. Or better yet, space them out so that when you have your elbows bent at 90 degrees, your forearms are parallel to each other (while also parallel to the ground/table surface).
1a) If you want to keep the 2 halves of the ErgoDox closer, you should turn the left half a few degrees clockwise, and turn the right half a similar amount counter-clockwise.

2)  You should consider tenting each ErgoDox half, so that the inside edge is higher than the outside edge. I use the Kinesis Freestyle V3 lifts (amazon link) on my classic case ErgoDox. I sawed off a few bits that stick up, and used 3M command strips to attach the V3 lifts to the bottom of the case.

Personally, I use the lifts set at 10 deg for tenting, and also keep both halves spaced apart so my arms are parallel to each other.

After watching your 2nd video, your desk is too high, or your chair is too low. Ideally, in my experience, you want your forearms parallel to the ground (as I said previously), and you want to keep your wrists straight, so that the back of your hands and your forearms form a straight line. You don't want your wrists to bend down (or up) while typing.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 March 2015, 19:13:14 by nomaded »
Dvorak
ErgoDox fullhand (MX Clears) w/Nuclear Green Data SA || Infinity ErgoDox (Zealios 78g tactile) w/SA Retro || Atreus62 (MX Clears) w/Chocolatier || TECK 209 (MX Browns) || TouchStream ST
Kensington Slimblade Trackball || Logitech Cordless Optical Trackman || Apple Magic Trackpad
Current Dvorak-based ErgoDox layout || Current Dvorak-based TECK layout

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 19:12:24 »
That helps.

I recommend reading jacobolus' past posts on the topic. Going by the video:
  • Your hand is too far from the body. Let your elbows simply hang next to your belly. My ErgoDox halves almost touch in the middle, but they're angled a bit.
  • Don't rest your palms/wrists like that. Keep them straight and hover them above the surface, or if you need to rest them, raise the rests (e.g., two stacked fat Grifiti palm rests, or one on the top of a full-hand ED case). You may need to raise your chair or lower the desk; wrists and elbows should be approximately in the same height.
  • Don't claw; if you need to press a key on the bottom row, don't curl that finger, but move your whole hand instead.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 March 2015, 19:14:19 by davkol »

Offline Usarise

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 55
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 19:36:09 »
A couple suggestions after watching your 1st video:

1)  You have the 2 halves of the ErgoDox too close together. I would suggest about 3 or 4 inches between the thumb clusters. Or better yet, space them out so that when you have your elbows bent at 90 degrees, your forearms are parallel to each other (while also parallel to the ground/table surface).
1a) If you want to keep the 2 halves of the ErgoDox closer, you should turn the left half a few degrees clockwise, and turn the right half a similar amount counter-clockwise.

2)  You should consider tenting each ErgoDox half, so that the inside edge is higher than the outside edge. I use the Kinesis Freestyle V3 lifts (amazon link) on my classic case ErgoDox. I sawed off a few bits that stick up, and used 3M command strips to attach the V3 lifts to the bottom of the case.

Personally, I use the lifts set at 10 deg for tenting, and also keep both halves spaced apart so my arms are parallel to each other.

After watching your 2nd video, your desk is too high, or your chair is too low. Ideally, in my experience, you want your forearms parallel to the ground (as I said previously), and you want to keep your wrists straight, so that the back of your hands and your forearms form a straight line. You don't want your wrists to bend down (or up) while typing.
Thanks for the suggestions!
I'll try tenting it a bit too then.  The risers you linked are reasonably cheap too so I think I'll give em a shot.  I just googled how to attach something like that... would you recommend velcro as well?

That helps.

I recommend reading jacobolus' past posts on the topic. Going by the video:
  • Your hand is too far from the body. Let your elbows simply hang next to your belly. My ErgoDox halves almost touch in the middle, but they're angled a bit.
  • Don't rest your palms/wrists like that. Keep them straight and hover them above the surface, or if you need to rest them, raise the rests (e.g., two stacked fat Grifiti palm rests, or one on the top of a full-hand ED case). You may need to raise your chair or lower the desk; wrists and elbows should be approximately in the same height.
  • Don't claw; if you need to press a key on the bottom row, don't curl that finger, but move your whole hand instead.
Thanks for the suggestions as well.  Seems angling them should be the first thing I try out.  I'll do the thing with turning them as well to see if that helps.  I've got them bent pretty far in now so my arms are parallel and that seems to be helping a bit!

I cant do much for the chair at the moment.  I have my regular chair at college and my desk is a lot lower there so that will probably help too.

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 19:40:43 »
FWIW I sometimes type with the keyboard (even the ErgoDox) on my thighs, esp. when I'm in an university lab with way too tall desks. Obviously, using Vimperator and Emacs most of time helps.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 20:23:32 »
Great, thanks for the videos, especially #2.

So my first question is: does your chair go any higher, or your desk any lower? Notice that right now your keyboard is a few inches above the level of your elbows, meaning that to type you need to either reach your arms out quite a bit in front of your body with your elbows out to the side, or else flex your elbows to an acute angle and put some load on your biceps. If the chair and desk can’t be changed, that’s not the end of the world, but you need to account for that with keyboard placement/orientation. If you can’t change the chair, sometimes stacking something on top of it can be helpful. It’s kind of pricey for what it is, and it’s slightly silly, but I’ve sometimes enjoyed carrying this thing to coffeeshops where I plan to work for a few hours – http://www.ergodepot.com/HumanTool_Balance_Seat_p/ht-balance.htm – which raises the seat height by maybe 8 inches, and encourages sitting with an upright back and a more open hip angle.

0. If you compare the Ergodox to a standard keyboard, you’re able to fix one big problem, which is keeping your wrists straight in the horizontal plane of the keyboard by separating the two halves, not turned out sideways (a.k.a. “ulnar deviation”, as the central position and rectangular shape of a standard keyboard encourages).

But you still have some other parts of your arms/hands that aren’t in the most neutral position.

1. Your arms are reaching a bit far forward, giving your arms/shoulders more work to do to hold up the weight. I’d recommend trying to bring your table a bit closer to your body, so that your arms aren’t quite as far forward, and then trying to relax your shoulders as much as possible, keeping them back and down rather than shrugging upward or forward. Ideally, you want to eliminate as much of the static load on your back/shoulder/arm muscles as you can.

2. Just like on a standard keyboard, your forearms/wrists are pronated almost to their limit (i.e. rotated so that the palms are pointed downward). The neutral rotation is something close to a vertical/handshake position, and there’s a pretty wide range of comfortable resting orientations, but pronated all the way is pretty stressful/uncomfortable. (This is one of the biggest problems with most non-split keyboards).

3. The front/back tilt of the keyboard is not aligned with the angle of your forearms. If you can’t change the chair height, I’d recommend lifting the far side of the keyboard up a bit (whether we’re talking about the Ergodox or a standard keyboard), until the horizontal plane of the keys is parallel to the plane of your palms/forearms. At your current position, far away rows of keys are annoying to reach for, because they’re effectively (compared to your arm angle) lower than the home row. Basically, the taller your table, the more tilted you want the keyboard, and vice versa; if the table is low enough, if you have a standing desk, or if the keyboard is on your lap directly, then even a slightly negative tilt, where the close side is higher than the far side, can be helpful.

4. Because of (1) and (3), you are resting your palm on the table to take some of the load off your shoulders. This makes it hard to keep your wrist straight.

5. (Maybe?) Your palm and first joint of your fingers are all kind of curved upward (i.e. in the opposite direction of the way they bend when making a fist). I’m not sure if this is comfortable for you, everyone’s hands are a little bit different, and you seem to have extremely flexible joints. Personally, I can’t even bend my hand into that kind of shape, and trying requires tensing several muscles to the extreme. I find that if I relax my hand, it naturally bends a bit the other way. Raising your palm/wrist a bit compared to your fingers might also put your thumbs in a more comfortable position. Right now they seem to be adducted a fair bit compared to a neutral resting position.

I’d recommend letting your hands sit loosely in your lap, and try to feel in your body how much muscle tension is required to hold your fingers/hands/wrists/arms in different positions. How much tension is there if you open your hand completely flat vs. how much tension if you make a fist, and various amounts of finger curl in between those extremes. How much tension if you rotate your palms all the way up vs. all the way down. Etc. In general, you want to keep your joints relatively neutral, because from a neutral/medium starting position, they have the most agility/flexibility to move. I find that my fingers work best when my wrists are within about a 5° angle to either side of neutral (but most people type with their wrists extended at a 20°+ angle). Similarly, I find that even a 15° tent angle for each half of the keyboard is a huge help compared to flat, though I prefer a steeper angle than that, like 30–45°.

Finally, I find that some of the physical keys on the Ergodox are out of easy reach, where pressing them would require turning my wrist side to side or reaching my whole arm; I try to map all the main functions I need (e.g. backspace, escape) to keys in very easy reach, and either ignore the further away keys or map them to uncommonly needed functions. (Actually, personally, I don’t like several design choices of the Ergodox, and I set it aside after using it for a couple months and have been using a mix of standard layout keyboards (including too much time on a laptop keyboard) and my own custom prototypes for the last year or so.)

Edit: actually one last final thing: try stuff for yourself and find something that works for you. Everyone’s body is a bit different, so don’t take any of our advice as gospel. And of course, posture/technique advice is only so useful. Just as important is to take a brief break to stand up and move and stretch a bit every 15 minutes (or at least once an hour), switch between different postures and tasks occasionally (e.g., when you need to think about a problem for 20 minutes, take a walk), and don’t spend too many hours every day sitting working. Also, get enough sleep, eat a healthy diet, get enough exercise, try to avoid too much work/family/relationship stress, etc. etc. All that standard “how to lead a sane healthy life” advice.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 March 2015, 20:48:09 by jacobolus »

Offline steve.v

  • Posts: 171
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 21:08:17 »
Problem #1: Staggered layout
Fixed; ergodox.
Problem #2: Qwerty Layout
Unsolved; learn a new layout.

Offline Usarise

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 55
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 21:33:30 »
Jacobolus:  I appreciate the input! 
So I emptied out the keyboard tray I was using to store papers and I'm trying not to force myself to use my pinky and it's feeling a lot better like that.  I have my whole setup like this now: 



Even played some CS:GO like this and went decently well.  ^~^


Problem #1: Staggered layout
Fixed; ergodox.
Problem #2: Qwerty Layout
Unsolved; learn a new layout.
Posts like this are why I like this forum.  XD
I don't know if I could learn something other than QWERTY...Seems really hard as I can't seem to touch type that properly haha

Offline nomaded

  • Posts: 197
  • Location: Andover, MA
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 21:39:05 »
Thanks for the suggestions!
I'll try tenting it a bit too then.  The risers you linked are reasonably cheap too so I think I'll give em a shot.  I just googled how to attach something like that... would you recommend velcro as well?

Velcro(tm) will work, and I know others have attached their V3 tents that way. Personally, I like 3M's DualLock(tm) (command strips) better because DualLock doesn't move along the plane of the connecting surfaces.

I also noticed that the ErgoDox is sliding around on your desk. I'd suggest picking up some flat rubber feet for the 2 outside corners, so the keyboard is more stable (the V3 tents have rubber feet). You can find them at hardware stores, like Lowes or Home Depot, and big box stores like Target or Walmart in the same section that has fuzzy feet for helping furniture move around.
Dvorak
ErgoDox fullhand (MX Clears) w/Nuclear Green Data SA || Infinity ErgoDox (Zealios 78g tactile) w/SA Retro || Atreus62 (MX Clears) w/Chocolatier || TECK 209 (MX Browns) || TouchStream ST
Kensington Slimblade Trackball || Logitech Cordless Optical Trackman || Apple Magic Trackpad
Current Dvorak-based ErgoDox layout || Current Dvorak-based TECK layout

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13565
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 17 March 2015, 01:35:57 »
Hahahaha..

I see your problem clear as Day.. 

You're adhering to the FLAT keyboard fallacy

The ergodox is meant to be TENTED..  only then will you engage its full potential.


To tent the ergodox.. buy this standoff kit

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CTWD4EQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


You will also need 50mm (length) m3 screws, and some 30mm m3 screws, you'll also need extra m3 nuts.

Because each joined riser will need 3 nuts per leg


Your technique will also need some modification.. But not so much in finger layout and placement.. 

Rather, it comes down to the relative strike-angle..   This will depend on how much you end up tenting your ergodox..

If you're tenting < 35 degrees,  you will need a strike angle of about 15*..

If you're above the 35 degrees tenting,  you can pretty much keep the wrist in almost neutral position and go in flush..


Also keep in mind.. You will not only need to tune the tenting left-right.. you can also adjust the tenting front-back..


Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 17 March 2015, 08:43:31 »
What others have said:

1. Splay: You've got it about right in your last pic, although it may even be a little too much. Match the inward angle of the forearms when resting your hands on the home row.
2. Tenting: Raise the inner edges of the boards so you don't have to pronate (flatten) your hands so much. 15 degrees or so is a good starting point, but you should find your own "best" angle.
3. Desk / chair height: Set your board low and your chair high, so your forearms are about parallel to the ground, upper arms straight down, around 90 degree elbow bend.
4. Wrist angles / rests: When typing lift your wrists off the rests so your wrists are straight, only use them for breaks in between typing and rest the hard nub of your palm on them. If you're going for a long gaming session, you can build up the left rest so your wrist is straight and rest the hard nub of your palm on it for the session. DON'T rest the flat of your wrist, it will compress blood vessels, tendons, etc and can cause major problems down the line. Same goes for mouse use, if you're using it normally, don't use the rest. If you have a long gaming session, use a hard rest at the correct height to keep your wrist straight and rest the nub of your palm.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13565
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Ergodox Wrist Strain
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 17 March 2015, 12:42:43 »
What others have said:

1. Splay: You've got it about right in your last pic, although it may even be a little too much. Match the inward angle of the forearms when resting your hands on the home row.
2. Tenting: Raise the inner edges of the boards so you don't have to pronate (flatten) your hands so much. 15 degrees or so is a good starting point, but you should find your own "best" angle.
3. Desk / chair height: Set your board low and your chair high, so your forearms are about parallel to the ground, upper arms straight down, around 90 degree elbow bend.
4. Wrist angles / rests: When typing lift your wrists off the rests so your wrists are straight, only use them for breaks in between typing and rest the hard nub of your palm on them. If you're going for a long gaming session, you can build up the left rest so your wrist is straight and rest the hard nub of your palm on it for the session. DON'T rest the flat of your wrist, it will compress blood vessels, tendons, etc and can cause major problems down the line. Same goes for mouse use, if you're using it normally, don't use the rest. If you have a long gaming session, use a hard rest at the correct height to keep your wrist straight and rest the nub of your palm.

The reason the Egdx needs alot more tenting then you'd think, more than 15* is because the outer edge is so thick..

so to Drop that edge. the only way to do so is to use a wrist rest, and tent above 35*