I hope all our Florida members are okay

[demik]

yeah that's a ****ty choice of word.

but fwiw, i knew what you meant.

2muchhoodinme

[Bigpock]

[Data]

Well, that does it, I'm about fed up with mass shootings in the USA.  You can try to blame a single cause, but we have created a society that produces more mass murderers than any other western nation, and we have to seriously chip away at every single cause for these incidents. You can blame an ideology, but a human being can be taught to think in ways that see beyond ideologies and reject them.

We are all in this together, do your best to not succomb to influences that seek to create false enemies and divide people that mostly share common interests and seek peaceful lives.  See each other as individual human beings, not condemn them by a category.  Create love, not hate.  The way you think and talk can have more influence on others than you realize, so hold yourself to a code of treating others as human beings deserving of life and freedom of nonviolent lifestyle, with respect and consideration.

Wise words.  Difficult, however, to overcome a million years of hard-coded survival skills.

[henz]

Well, that does it, I'm about fed up with mass shootings in the USA.  You can try to blame a single cause, but we have created a society that produces more mass murderers than any other western nation, and we have to seriously chip away at every single cause for these incidents. You can blame an ideology, but a human being can be taught to think in ways that see beyond ideologies and reject them.

We are all in this together, do your best to not succomb to influences that seek to create false enemies and divide people that mostly share common interests and seek peaceful lives.  See each other as individual human beings, not condemn them by a category.  Create love, not hate.  The way you think and talk can have more influence on others than you realize, so hold yourself to a code of treating others as human beings deserving of life and freedom of nonviolent lifestyle, with respect and consideration.

feels like a presidential speech 

[fohat.digs]

What is it with the self-loathing?

The Orlando shooter was gay, Hitler had "bad genes"

Are people so down on themselves that they feel like they have to take it out on the entire world?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/dna-tests-reveal-hitler-s-jewish-and-african-roots-1.309938

[chuckdee]

What is it with the self-loathing?

The Orlando shooter was gay, Hitler had "bad genes"

Are people so down on themselves that they feel like they have to take it out on the entire world?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/dna-tests-reveal-hitler-s-jewish-and-african-roots-1.309938

Last night, I was watching the news and they were talking about forgiving and understanding the dude.  With 50+ deaths to his account, and countless more affected.  Seems like they try to find any sort of excuse and reason for these things happening, instead of putting the blame squarely on him.

[hashbaz]

What is it with the self-loathing?

The Orlando shooter was gay, Hitler had "bad genes"

Are people so down on themselves that they feel like they have to take it out on the entire world?

I can't speak for Hitler, but the effect of religious and cultural oppression on queer people is very often suppression of identity and consequently, self-hatred. My anger at this shooting is less for the shooter and more for the culture that created him.

[tp4tissue]

What is it with the self-loathing?

The Orlando shooter was gay, Hitler had "bad genes"

Are people so down on themselves that they feel like they have to take it out on the entire world?

I can't speak for Hitler, but the effect of religious and cultural oppression on queer people is very often suppression of identity and consequently, self-hatred. My anger at this shooting is less for the shooter and more for the culture that created him.

I don't think that perspective is correct in these patient cases..

Our culture is what it is..


But, even if ostracization of homosexuality did not exist..


A person such as this would just find the Next closest thing to h8..

Maybe this guy will h8 all topre users, and shoot up a keyboard meetup..


And proclaim loyalty to the German Reich, who produces Cherry MX-Switches..


--it's just as likely , because his madness could be attached to anything at all..

[tp4tissue]

Well, that does it, I'm about fed up with mass shootings in the USA.  You can try to blame a single cause, but we have created a society that produces more mass murderers than any other western nation, and we have to seriously chip away at every single cause for these incidents. You can blame an ideology, but a human being can be taught to think in ways that see beyond ideologies and reject them.

We are all in this together, do your best to not succomb to influences that seek to create false enemies and divide people that mostly share common interests and seek peaceful lives.  See each other as individual human beings, not condemn them by a category.  Create love, not hate.  The way you think and talk can have more influence on others than you realize, so hold yourself to a code of treating others as human beings deserving of life and freedom of nonviolent lifestyle, with respect and consideration.

This is fundamentally at odds with how our biology operates..


Our only goal as lifeforms is to propagate at ANY and ALL COST..

Eventually, if we're very good at it,  we would convert the entirety of the mass in the universe into human beings, or -borg ship-  whatever humans evolve into..


There is no fundamental virtue to being Alive..  Nothing to police anyone else, or ourselves into submission and be neighborly.

The only purpose, is to convert Mass into yet more humans or a bigger human (borg)

The only Truth, is if anything stands in the way, kill it, then absorb its mass..



The mission is not coexistence, the mission is continuous growth..

[iri]

What is it with the self-loathing?

The Orlando shooter was gay, Hitler had "bad genes"

Are people so down on themselves that they feel like they have to take it out on the entire world?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/dna-tests-reveal-hitler-s-jewish-and-african-roots-1.309938

Last night, I was watching the news and they were talking about forgiving and understanding the dude.  With 50+ deaths to his account, and countless more affected.  Seems like they try to find any sort of excuse and reason for these things happening, instead of putting the blame squarely on him.

That's insane.

[SBJ]

What is it with the self-loathing?

The Orlando shooter was gay, Hitler had "bad genes"

Are people so down on themselves that they feel like they have to take it out on the entire world?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/dna-tests-reveal-hitler-s-jewish-and-african-roots-1.309938

Last night, I was watching the news and they were talking about forgiving and understanding the dude.  With 50+ deaths to his account, and countless more affected.  Seems like they try to find any sort of excuse and reason for these things happening, instead of putting the blame squarely on him.

How could you possibly do that? Hate the ****er, he deserves this. But forget him quickly.

[hashbaz]

I don't think that perspective is correct in these patient cases..

Our culture is what it is..


But, even if ostracization of homosexuality did not exist..


A person such as this would just find the Next closest thing to h8..

Maybe this guy will h8 all topre users, and shoot up a keyboard meetup..


And proclaim loyalty to the German Reich, who produces Cherry MX-Switches..


--it's just as likely , because his madness could be attached to anything at all..

These shootings don't happen for no reason, and it's irresponsible to just throw up your hands and say "well if it wasn't one thing, it would have been another". That's a bull**** self-indulgent way of dodging responsibility.

[tp4tissue]

These shootings don't happen for no reason, and it's irresponsible to just throw up your hands and say "well if it wasn't one thing, it would have been another". That's a bull**** self-indulgent way of dodging responsibility.

We could not have prevented this issue because the root cause is not the many faults of our imperfect world.

The primary cause for this specific event is not homosexuality.

The primary cause here is a single person who started out, or became mentally unstable.


This explanation also does not challenge what may be the right decisions regarding the existence of homosexuality.



When you look at things which happen,  granularity is important, because we do not have the resources to make quick sweeping social changes for EVERYTHING that may have set-this-person-off..


The world is already moving in the right direction,  but events such as this will continue to occur, because they're not reliably predictable, and not directly attributed to the social movement which this ONE person believed he was aligned with.



Assuming tomorrow,  an apple fell on some child,  and this child is now emotionally traumatized by all things apple related...

Given enough lifestyle and environmental stress,  it is possible that such a misdirected person starts their rampage over apples...


Would you then turn around and say,  ban all things apple,  or ban things from falling from trees, or ban Hatred in general..

Think of the implications of the sweeping call-to-action that you're making..

Any of those requests even if possible, is an enormous cost to society, and would still in no way have prevented that one person's rampage..




SHOULD we change ...   maybe we should consider growing smaller apple trees, such that the apple does not hurt you when they fall on you or anyone else.

-- Perhaps yes we should do that ^^

-- But, we must be clear when we analyze why we make large alterations.

-- This lone rampage is glossed by, but not a direct result, of tall apple trees..

--  The fact that we say the events are not directly correlated, IS NOT in conflict with whether or not we should have smaller apple trees.
 

[fohat.digs]

The primary cause here is a single person who started out, or became mentally unstable.

The world is already moving in the right direction,  but events such as this will continue to occur,
 

We are in a transitional time for the human race, and it is a painful one. The "old" world wants to keep things simple and understandable, but a Luddite mentality flies in the face of our exponentially expanding understanding of the universe that we live in. Edison was right on when he said "Tradition is the greatest obstacle to progress."

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[SpAmRaY]

The primary cause here is a single person who started out, or became mentally unstable.

The world is already moving in the right direction,  but events such as this will continue to occur,
 

We are in a transitional time for the human race, and it is a painful one. The "old" world wants to keep things simple and understandable, but a Luddite mentality flies in the face of our exponentially expanding understanding of the universe that we live in. Edison was right on when he said "Tradition is the greatest obstacle to progress."

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Thanks for the article link it was worth a quick read.

[fohat.digs]

Thanks for the article link it was worth a quick read.

The article is excellent and valuable but it is hardly a "quick read"

[hashbaz]

We could not have prevented this issue because the root cause is not the many faults of our imperfect world.

The primary cause for this specific event is not homosexuality.

The primary cause here is a single person who started out, or became mentally unstable.

This is what I'm criticizing you for. Saying that someone just "became mentally unstable" is fatalistic and inaccurate. It's sticking your head in the sand. It's lazy. It's irresponsible. And in this particular case it harms the cause of eradicating homophobia to pretend like homophobia was not a huge part of this shooting.

[fohat.digs]

to pretend like homophobia was not a huge part of this shooting.

I would not categorize an extreme fundamentalist religious stance as "homophobia"

I would describe it as something different and even deeper and more sinister.

A "homophobic" person chooses to think and behave in a certain way, but religious beliefs are indoctrinated and carried out as "duties" to God.

[chuckdee]

A "homophobic" person chooses to think and behave in a certain way, but religious beliefs are indoctrinated and carried out as "duties" to God.

That's a dangerous generalization.

[hashbaz]

to pretend like homophobia was not a huge part of this shooting.

I would not categorize an extreme fundamentalist religious stance as "homophobia"

I would describe it as something different and even deeper and more sinister.

A "homophobic" person chooses to think and behave in a certain way, but religious beliefs are indoctrinated and carried out as "duties" to God.

Whether or not the shooter saw this as a religious duty, he was also homophobic, in the regular sense. The statements of his ex-wife and father make that pretty clear.

[fohat.digs]

That's a dangerous generalization.

What is a dangerous generalization?

On another note - it would seem to me that "homo" + "phobia" means fear of homosexuals, yet the word is almost always used in the context of those aggressive people inflicting some sort of harm (physical, mental, emotional, whatever) on innocent homosexuals who generally trying to ignore them. Where did that come from?

[noisyturtle]

Why is the news playing down the angle that he was actually gay himself and this is likely a buildup from the past three years he had been going to that club cruising for **** and getting rejected paired with a manifestation of his religious upbringing creeping up, so he believes killing a bunch of gay people will set things right with God and his daddy issues. If anything, the ISIS angle seems like an afterthought. This wasn't a terrorist act, it was an act of violence. Oh but we wouldn't want to humanize the killer even though his mental health is a key issue.

[iri]

Why is the news playing down the angle that he was actually gay himself and this is likely a buildup from the past three years he had been going to that club cruising for **** and getting rejected paired with a manifestation of his religious upbringing creeping up

Because ISIS and 'homophobia' clicks better?

[fohat.digs]

cruising for **** and getting rejected paired with a manifestation of his religious upbringing

I heard a psychologist talking about guilt and self-loathing being one of the primary paths to suicide. (surprise!)

Then with the fundamentalist glorification of martyrdom in certain religions, you could make a bizarre perverse logical conclusion that even though "suicide" itself is forbidden, dying (conveniently at someone else's hand) during an act that could be construed as good or dutiful (or whatever the killing perverts and infidels is) then your life would have not been in vain after all.

[iri]

In what religion killing perverts is good or dutiful?

[fohat.digs]

In what religion killing perverts is good or dutiful?

I don't know how authoritative this is, just what turned up at random on the internet:

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

[cryptokey]

Indications so far are that this was motivated by homophobia and possibly also religious fanaticism.

Homophobia doesn't make you kill people, mental illness does. You need to be mentally ill if you feel the need 2 kill people based on religion and such.

I really feel that we should all read this article. https://medium.com/invisible-illness/on-mental-health-gun-violence-and-stigma-df9d0bd46c08#.tger1hg78

In particular, attributing gun violence to mental health is contributing to the stigma on mental health.  "Oh, they have a mental illness?  Better stay away from them in case they snap and become a murderer!"  Equal in importance to curing mental illnesses is both making treatment readily available and eliminating the stigma so that people who need treatment don't fear being open about it due to the stigma that you might be lumped together in society with those people who carry out mass murder.

These paragraphs seemed to capture much of this sentiment.

"...mental illness does NOT cause mass shootings. There is ample evidence on this. Most shooters have never had any history of mental health issues, either diagnosed or of friends or neighbors raising concerns about them. Indeed, analyses of mass shooters in the US have shown that only about 1 in 5 showed evidence of mental illness. Also, people with mental illness are actually much more likely to be victims of violent crimes, rather than perpetrators of it. Studies show that only about 3–5% of US crimes involve people with a mental illness, and they are less likely to involve guns than crimes by persons not diagnosed with a mental illness."

"For the vast majority of people, the idea of planning and carrying out an attack that kills multiple other people seems so completely unreal and impossible that we think, “They MUST have been ‘crazy’, right? Who in their right mind could be capable of such a thing?” We have a cultural tendency to label as “crazy” anything that we cannot comprehend or even fathom, forgetting that “crazy” actually has a (set of) diagnosable definition(s) and isn’t just a catch-all term for our own confusion."

"But the rarely-acknowledged truth is that over half of all gun deaths in the US are suicides. According to the CDC in 2013 there were 33,000 firearm deaths in the US. Of those, 11,000 were homicides. The remaining 21,000 were suicides. The numbers for 2010 are 11,000 gun homicides, and 19,000 gun suicides. The average of about 30,000 gun-related deaths per year has remained fairly steady, though interestingly it appears that the number of homicides has decreased overtime while the number of suicides has increased."

[cryptokey]

Accidentally double posted instead of revising x)

[chuckdee]

That's a dangerous generalization.

What is a dangerous generalization?

That all believers are indoctrinated and feel it's their duty to do irrational things.

In what religion killing perverts is good or dutiful?

I don't know how authoritative this is, just what turned up at random on the internet:

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

I genuinely expected better from you fohat, than to quote a series of things out of context, made for the reason of proving a point.

I can't say for sure that I know the context.  I've done some study of the Quran out of curiousity, but found it harder than many religions to put into context because of the need for a cultural basis in order to understand what the different parts were.  But because of that inability to put individual verses in context, I don't judge it on the basis of individual verses.

That's what imams do, routinely.

In countries where literacy still does not have a great penetration, and the young and disenfranchised and fanatical need to have their text read to them by people with agendas, things are regularly twisted.

The Tolerance of the Prophet towards Other Religions (part 1 of 2): To Each Their Own Religion

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/207/viewall/tolerance-of-prophet-towards-other-religions/

I do know that they are admonished to respect the "People of the Book".  The "People of the Book" are followers of Abrahamic religions.  Very similar to Judaism, they do not believe that Jesus (Īsā) was the Messiah.  But they do believe he was a respected prophet.

"Who could have a better religion than someone who submits himself completely to Allah and is a good-doer, and follows the religion of Abraham, a man of pure natural belief?" (Surat an-Nisa’, 125)

In our ignorance of a religion that is different than ours, we act as those who are indoctrinated to extremism, i.e. take the words out of context of those with agendas, and believe them.

[fohat.digs]

That all believers are indoctrinated and feel it's their duty to do irrational things.

I don't know how authoritative this is, just what turned up at random on the internet:

I genuinely expected better from you fohat, than to quote a series of things out of context, made for the reason of proving a point.

I genuinely might have expected better from you chuckdee, than to take my comments out of context and add your own words into mine.

You sometimes make valid points, but your egregious and disingenuous "style" of "debate" is infuriating and I resent it.

First, as you perfectly well know, I did not say that "all" "believers" are indoctrinated - that is a very different statement from mine: that "religious beliefs are indoctrinated"

Although I was what could only be described as "indoctrinated" as a child, as the vast majority of religious people are, I do accept that it is possible to come to religion as an adult of your own free will. Personally, I "grew out of" religion when I reached adulthood and I am very glad that I did.

As far as the random and arbitrary list of uglinesses that I linked from the internet, there is no doubt that a similar, albeit less strident and murderous list could easily be pulled from Leviticus.

Last, the thing that sets Jesus (the most successful Reform Jew) apart from the rest is his rejection of the arrogance and anger of the other Abrahamic followers and his focus on tolerance, forgiveness, and love and his rejection of technicalities and rules.

[chuckdee]

That all believers are indoctrinated and feel it's their duty to do irrational things.

I don't know how authoritative this is, just what turned up at random on the internet:

I genuinely expected better from you fohat, than to quote a series of things out of context, made for the reason of proving a point.

I genuinely might have expected better from you chuckdee, than to take my comments out of context and add your own words into mine.

You sometimes make valid points, but your egregious and disingenuous "style" of "debate" is infuriating and I resent it.

First, as you perfectly well know, I did not say that "all" "believers" are indoctrinated - that is a very different statement from mine: that "religious beliefs are indoctrinated"

Although I was what could only be described as "indoctrinated" as a child, as the vast majority of religious people are, I do accept that it is possible to come to religion as an adult of your own free will. Personally, I "grew out of" religion when I reached adulthood and I am very glad that I did.

As far as the random and arbitrary list of uglinesses that I linked from the internet, there is no doubt that a similar, albeit less strident and murderous list could easily be pulled from Leviticus.

Last, the thing that sets Jesus (the most successful Reform Jew) apart from the rest is his rejection of the arrogance and anger of the other Abrahamic followers and his focus on tolerance, forgiveness, and love and his rejection of technicalities and rules.

A "homophobic" person chooses to think and behave in a certain way, but religious beliefs are indoctrinated and carried out as "duties" to God.

(emphasis mine)

I do apologize if you think I was taking your words out of context.  But looking at that, can you tell me that there is no all there?  Perhaps it was in the way that you stated it?

What I (in general) do is quote what I am speaking to.  I find that it's easier to make sure that the point of reference is included.  I didn't in that case, so am backing up to make sure that we are indeed talking about the words, and can come to some consensus over what was actually meant?

[iri]

In what religion killing perverts is good or dutiful?

I don't know how authoritative this is, just what turned up at random on the internet:

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

Well, these quotes are mostly about atheists or people of different religions.

[fohat.digs]

edit - sorry, I almost let a troll get under my skin

[cryptokey]

But looking at that, can you tell me that there is no all there?

No, *******, there is absolutely no "all" there.

Please, let's keep this civil. 

[chuckdee]

edit - sorry, I almost let a troll get under my skin

I'm not sure who the troll is.  But I don't think it's me.

When you can't respond civilly to a civilly stated post, and don't take even the slightest look at your phrasing, and perhaps see that maybe it was a bit off, the problem might not be on the other side of the post.

[fohat.digs]

When you can't respond civilly to a civilly stated post,

Twisting and adding to my words and presenting the result as "my" words rather than "your" words is deeply offensive and uncivil, besides being disingenuous.

Do not quote me unless you quote me verbatim, otherwise say something like "this is what I am imagining that you might be saying:"

[chuckdee]

When you can't respond civilly to a civilly stated post,

Twisting and adding to my words and presenting the result as "my" words rather than "your" words is deeply offensive and uncivil, besides being disingenuous.

Do not quote me unless you quote me verbatim, otherwise say something like "this is what I am imagining that you might be saying:"

I did quote you verbatim.  Click on it.  And apologized for the earlier one if I took a less than generous interpretation, as I was on a mobile device.  Is that second quoting not yours?  Can you not see how it might be interpreted as all?  I was trying to make no offense- that's all on what you took from it.  All I said originally, was directly quoted your quote, and said that it was a dangerous generalization.

But this is getting off the topic, and I don't think that the aggression is appropriate for this thread.  If you wish to handle it via PM, then feel free.  If not, that's fine also.  But I'm going to lay it here.  With an olive branch.  The same one I already offered.

[hashbaz]

Hi folks let's keep this civil.

A "homophobic" person chooses to think and behave in a certain way, but religious beliefs are indoctrinated and carried out as "duties" to God.

Fohat, for what it's worth I also took your statement here to refer to all religious belief. Maybe you should revise it.

(or whatever the killing perverts and infidels is)

In what religion killing perverts is good or dutiful?

Let's be very careful (i.e., more careful than both of you were here) to distinguish between the supposed beliefs of the shooter and your own personal beliefs.

edit: fixed broken quotes

[hashbaz]

On another note - it would seem to me that "homo" + "phobia" means fear of homosexuals, yet the word is almost always used in the context of those aggressive people inflicting some sort of harm (physical, mental, emotional, whatever) on innocent homosexuals who generally trying to ignore them. Where did that come from?

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Aggression can be motivated by fear. In this case I'd say it's fear in the sense of having your worldview and beliefs threatened by the existence of gay people and their progress towards acceptance and equal protection.

[chuckdee]

On another note - it would seem to me that "homo" + "phobia" means fear of homosexuals, yet the word is almost always used in the context of those aggressive people inflicting some sort of harm (physical, mental, emotional, whatever) on innocent homosexuals who generally trying to ignore them. Where did that come from?

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Aggression can be motivated by fear. In this case I'd say it's fear in the sense of having your worldview and beliefs threatened by the existence of gay people and their progress towards acceptance and equal protection.

I think that's a very good distinction to make (what your statement says).  I personally don't think that my beliefs are predicated on someone else believing the same way.  Many don't share that belief, which is what, I think, causes a lot of friction.

Doesn't matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it's done just how I say

America is supposed to be the land of the free.  But many people think that freedom only extends to the borders of what they believe.  And that's wrong, IMO.

Commander Locke:
Damnit, Morpheus, not everyone believes what you believe.

Morpheus:
My beliefs don't require them to.

Your belief shouldn't require the beliefs of others to validate them.  And that's where this (IMO) silly persecution complex comes in to play.  Many people use their religion to create a barrier around their ugliest instincts and impulses.  And when that barrier is threatened, those impulses come to the surface.  That fear is the fear that the other side is right, and that the beliefs won't be validated.  And that's in my opinion, very dangerous, and very akin to the last part of your statement, where a lot of the violence and aggression comes from.

[fohat.digs]

Aggression can be motivated by fear.

In this case I'd say it's fear in the sense of having your worldview and beliefs threatened

No doubt about that. I was just noting that it is an inversion of logic for the fearful ones to be the aggressors, when the "threat" that they perceive is an existential one and not related to the objects of their assaults.

[hashbaz]

That fear is the fear that the other side is right, and that the beliefs won't be validated.

Yep. When I was a believing Mormon this kind of fear was always lurking under the surface.

[fohat.digs]

That fear is the fear that the other side is right, and that the beliefs won't be validated.

Yep. When I was a believing Mormon this kind of fear was always lurking under the surface.

And, even though I need to leave this thread alone, I will up the ante again and say that now that I am 99.9% certain that "God" (any and/or all of them, that is) is not real, I can recognize that the Western religions fear apostasy so much that they are hardly willing even to discuss it.

Funny how the religions, and even sub-sects within broader religious categories, bicker so fiercely amongst themselves, when they should be uniting to destroy their true nemesis: the understanding that it is all just a bogus fairy tale.

[chyros]

That fear is the fear that the other side is right, and that the beliefs won't be validated.

Yep. When I was a believing Mormon this kind of fear was always lurking under the surface.

And, even though I need to leave this thread alone, I will up the ante again and say that now that I am 99.9% certain that "God" (any and/or all of them, that is) is not real, I can recognize that the Western religions fear apostasy so much that they are hardly willing even to discuss it.

Funny how the religions, and even sub-sects within broader religious categories, bicker so fiercely amongst themselves, when they should be uniting to destroy their true nemesis: the understanding that it is all just a bogus fairy tale.

Quite the opposite. By definition, religion is defined in such a way that you can't disprove it. That's the whole point of religion; something that's obviously, but not provably wrong. As such, religions, again by definition, don't need to worry about atheists, because their religion can always be defined in such a way that any proof becomes irrelevant. "The Earth is 6000 years old. Oh, you found some fossils that are carbon-dated to be millions of years old? Well god just put them there to test our faith." Facts will never disprove any religion, because they just make up an explanation for it. "That's why it's called believing", "it's all a test", "but it's written in the bible", "god works in mysterious ways", etc. etc. etc.

Other faiths on the other hand have the exact same arguments as them; they don't play by the rules and don't use common sense either. Just like their own faith, other faiths just make something up to counter any arguments they might have. They're the real threat.

[chuckdee]

That fear is the fear that the other side is right, and that the beliefs won't be validated.

Yep. When I was a believing Mormon this kind of fear was always lurking under the surface.

And, even though I need to leave this thread alone, I will up the ante again and say that now that I am 99.9% certain that "God" (any and/or all of them, that is) is not real, I can recognize that the Western religions fear apostasy so much that they are hardly willing even to discuss it.

Funny how the religions, and even sub-sects within broader religious categories, bicker so fiercely amongst themselves, when they should be uniting to destroy their true nemesis: the understanding that it is all just a bogus fairy tale.

And that's cool- that's your stance.  I do believe, and that's my stance also.  And both should be OK.  Your beliefs don't have any bearing on mine.  But too many people don't get that simple point.  They have to validate their faiths with everyone else.  And when people don't believe, that threatens them, which is sad.